This really creeps me out!

[chinto01]

Hello all. Wanted to see if this would creep you out the way it is creeping me out. At the dojo I work out at there is a 20 something black belt. He is o.k. never did anything to me so I have nothing against him except the following. He and this 14 y.o. female black belt are constantly flirting back and forth. I am not talking about batting of eyelashes or occasional glances here and there. I am talking about constant touching each other back and forth (a little "love" tap here a little touch to the shoulder there. It really makes me sick to see this. I have tried telling him that it may be a little inappropriate but he just blows me off and has continued to do it. What would you do in this situation ?I have kind of reserved to just let the cards fall where they may and when the junk really hits the fan tell him I told you so. Problem is it is not just me noticing it but the rest of the people in the dojo are beginning to notice.

In the spirit of bushido!

Rob

[Jai]

Thre is one big problem. Her age. She is a minor and he is an adult. That kind of behaviour should not be allowed inside the dojo period, but more so because of the age. Something should be done to put an end to it before it goes totally out of control. How long until younger students start giving "love taps" to one another because they see the blackbelts doing it? Both of them should know better.

[theletch1]

I think, in general, the response you're most likely to get here is to talk to your head instructor about it. If you aren't the only one noticing it then the actions are probably pretty overt and have been noticed by the head instructor already. Knowing that the rest of the student body has noticed as well may prompt the head instructor into action. As Jai said, the dojo is not a place for that type of flirting but the fact that she is 14 makes the situation (potentially) much worse than flirting.

[14 Kempo]

In taking a corporate type point of view on this, if you are aware of inproprieties and do not report it, you are as much at fault as they are. I'm not sure where you are, but this in inappropriate behavior whether or not it is in the school and should be dealt with immediately. If they are doing this in the public's eye, what might happen in a more private atmosphere.

As stated before, take it to the head instructor. Deal with it immediately. Just my two cents.

[morph4me]

Silence is the voice of complicity. Report it.

[SenseiBear]

ewww. not OK.

[FieldDiscipline]

Agree with everyone else. If you are sure, and its innappropriate, tell your chief instructor.

Edited to add: 14 and an adult = innappropriate.

[shesulsa]

Speak to your instructor about it now.

[kidswarrior]

Agree with everyone else. If you are sure, and its innappropriate, tell your chief instructor.I'll just jump on this bandwagon. This is a powder keg waiting for a match, and I can imagine a scenario where this could get the whole dojo closely scrutinized/investigated/closed by the authorities.


Edited to add: 14 and an adult = innappropriate.I'm a teacher by profession, so have seen/heard some amazing/awful stuff along these lines. I can easily envision this going from inappropriate to illegal in a nano-second--maybe already has. Don't want to sound alarmist, but at best there's always a news hound looking for the next juicy headline, and this would make a pretty good start.

[7starmarc]

Yes, I'd say this definitely registers pretty high on the creepy factor as well as the potentially dangerous/illegal factor.

Talking to the instructor/chief instructor about this is definitely called for.

This is as much an important lesson for self defense as anything taught in the dojo.

The guy needs to learn how to make better choices to avoid legal and social consequences.

The girl needs to learn to act her age, and that responding to such attention from older guys can lead to some dangerous territory. She probably doesn't realize that most 20-something guys have different experiences and expectations with regards to a relationship, and that she could get in over her head very quickly. By responding to his advances, she is setting herself up for potential injury (either emotional, physical, or both). She needs to learn appropriate boundaries and how to set them.

Depending on your relationship with these two individuals, you might be able to speak to them, as well.

[Xue Sheng]

I agree with what has been posted by others here... report it.

This type of thing closed a TKD school in my area and cast a shadow on and seriously hurt the business of another TKD school that was not associated but had a similar name.

[JBrainard]

I agree with everyone above. I would also say that the twenty something student should be expelled ASAP. His behavior is disruptive and disrespectful to both the girl and the school.

[kidswarrior]

I forgot to add, in my experience 14 year old girls are not especially known for their emotional stability and long-term commitment to principle. What if she decides one day that this is suddenly no fun anymore? The guy, as an adult, might have a long, tough road ahead, and those around/above him could get splattered by the mud. Have seen it happen more than once.

[Sukerkin]

I concur with all that above, especially from those in positions to speak with authority on the topic.

One thought tho'.

How well do these two know each other outside of the dojo? What social links do theyhave? I only ask because, having two much younger sisters, I was the target of quite a bit of teenage-girl flirting-practice from their friends during their school years.

I know that these days the world is a Lawyer-bomb waiting to happen but the reality is that girls still learn their 'relationship skills' by trial and error I would guess. An older chap is a 'safe' target, particularly if known via a sibling link, for the very fact that he will not either crush them flat or take them up on their fake advances.

If the chap in question is responding in kind and doing so seriously then all that thas been said in previous posts is very relevant.

[elder999]

I One thought tho'.

How well do these two know each other outside of the dojo? What social links do theyhave? I only ask because, having two much younger sisters, I was the target of quite a bit of teenage-girl flirting-practice from their friends during their school years..

It also occurred to me. They may even be cousins,or some other sort of relative, and doing this sort of thing for years-otherwise, I can't help but agree with almost everyone here.

[kidswarrior]

... the reality is that girls still learn their 'relationship skills' by trial and error I would guess. An older chap is a 'safe' target, particularly if known via a sibling link, for the very fact that he will not either crush them flat or take them up on their fake advances.That's an excellent point, and one I'd missed. :asian:

[arnisador]

At the least it must be distracting and unsettling; it may lead to worse. Mentioning it to an instructor is a good idea.

[Deaf Smith]

Chinto,

What does the teacher say? Were is he (or she?) That is the one who should be cracking down on this.

Were I live, using the DPS database on those convicted of sexual crimes, you have alot of young men who simply messed around with 15-16 year old girls and ended up being labeled a sexual preditor and have to register for life as being one.

No they weren't pedophiles, and I understand 18 year old boys having the move put on them by underage girls (it happens all the time.) But, they need to be warned before they ruin their lives.

I'd discuss this with the teacher and let him have a talk with the young black belt.

Deaf

[Twin Fist]

This doesnt bother that much. Younger girls flirt with older guys

it's what they do

Assuming his isnt doing anything other than giving her a smack on the head in the school.

that being said....

Still mention it to the head instructor, so HE/SHE can make sure that nothing else happens. But what you have seen happen is un-professional for sure, but not really creepy. And not illegal, as far as you know.

it is just flirting people

[shesulsa]

This doesnt bother that much. Younger girls flirt with older guys

it's what they do

Assuming his isnt doing anything other than giving her a smack on the head in the school.

that being said....

Still mention it to the head instructor, so HE/SHE can make sure that nothing else happens. But what you have seen happen is un-professional for sure, but not really creepy. And not illegal, as far as you know.

it is just flirting people
Perhaps, but in the real world, we have something called liability and responsibility for minors.

1. If instructors allow inappropriate contact to continue in this vein they could be deemed liable for neglect given the situation is so obviously inappropriate.

2. If I were that girl's mother I'd be grounding her from class and in that instructor's office so fast it would make his head swim. A teacher who allows inappropriate flirting in his/her school is out of touch, irresponsible and shouldn't be in charge of minors.

3. The OP is clearly uncomfortable with the situation to the point of it being distracting and has a right to bring it up.

The attitude of "harmless flirting" - even when it IS - is legally dangerous.

[tellner]

Second what everyone else says. You have to tell the head instructor. It's already creating a creepy learning environment for everyone else. And while fourteen year olds flirt with older men it's completely outside the pale for the older guy to flirt back, much less touch her.

It's all kinds of bad, and if you see it and do nothing you're part of the problem.

[Twin Fist]

oh I agree that it needs to be brought up, and stopped, but what has been witnessed is a long way from sexual assault, which has been mentioned in this thread.

I am just saying, put it in perspective.

But yes, as a school owner myself, I would stop it, for the liability issues you already mentioned SS.

As much as I LOATH doing something "just because someone MIGHT sue" you, as an owner,cant be too careful.

[kidswarrior]

I am just saying, put it in perspective.Always good advice.


But yes, as a school owner myself, I would stop it, for the liability issues you already mentioned SS.

As much as I LOATH doing something "just because someone MIGHT sue" you, as an owner,cant be too careful.Sad but true. You can let some things play themselves out, but not these kinds of things.

[jks9199]

I know that these days the world is a Lawyer-bomb waiting to happen but the reality is that girls still learn their 'relationship skills' by trial and error I would guess. An older chap is a 'safe' target, particularly if known via a sibling link, for the very fact that he will not either crush them flat or take them up on their fake advances.

If the chap in question is responding in kind and doing so seriously then all that thas been said in previous posts is very relevant.
There's a valid point here -- but the instructor shouldn't be encouraging it. Especially during class. It certainly appears that the instructor has some maturing to do...


This doesnt bother that much. Younger girls flirt with older guys

it's what they do

Assuming his isnt doing anything other than giving her a smack on the head in the school.

that being said....

Still mention it to the head instructor, so HE/SHE can make sure that nothing else happens. But what you have seen happen is un-professional for sure, but not really creepy. And not illegal, as far as you know.

it is just flirting people
It's very, very easy for "just flirting" to become sexual harassment. The 20 year old is in a position of authority over the girl. I'm not there to see what's happening -- but it's disturbing at least one student. Probably more than one. That suggests that it may be more than "just flirting."

Perhaps, but in the real world, we have something called liability and responsibility for minors.

1. If instructors allow inappropriate contact to continue in this vein they could be deemed liable for neglect given the situation is so obviously inappropriate.

2. If I were that girl's mother I'd be grounding her from class and in that instructor's office so fast it would make his head swim. A teacher who allows inappropriate flirting in his/her school is out of touch, irresponsible and shouldn't be in charge of minors.

3. The OP is clearly uncomfortable with the situation to the point of it being distracting and has a right to bring it up.

The attitude of "harmless flirting" - even when it IS - is legally dangerous.
That's the thing here -- whatever is going on is making other people uncomfortable with the situation. The head instructor needs to take a direct hand and control it; to do otherwise is simply unprofessional and inviting disaster. (If a 20 year old "flirting" with a 14 year old is OK... what about a 12 year old? or a 9 year old?)

Second what everyone else says. You have to tell the head instructor. It's already creating a creepy learning environment for everyone else. And while fourteen year olds flirt with older men it's completely outside the pale for the older guy to flirt back, much less touch her.

It's all kinds of bad, and if you see it and do nothing you're part of the problem.

Like others are saying -- the head instructor needs to be made aware of the situation, and given a chance to evaluate it and respond to it. We can't see the behavior here; we only know that it's making the OP uncomfortable. Which is a red flag.

[MA-Caver]

Echoing the replies of the inappropriateness of the situation.

[shudokan-RN]

sooo inappropriate. a 14 year old may not know better , but the 20 year old should

all I have to say is doesn't he watch Date Line, To catch a predator. Does he want Cris Hansen to pay him a visit ?

I think not

marci

[chinto]

I would suggest that you tell the head instructor about this. there is all kinds of trouble and some of them very serious legal problems! very bad juju with the age of the girl involved.. unfortunately if you switch the gender, there would be a lot less problem, unfortunate but true.

[chinto01]

Thanks to everyone for your replies. This has been going on for some time now. I have tried to approach the subject before with the school owner but he just seems to blow it off. He's not one for confrontation. That being said the reason I stay out of it I guess is because I don't want anything to do with it. I feel I have done all that I can do and now it is up to him. My next step is to have another conversation with him and let him know how this creeps me out. I have also considered leaving that dojo if it keeps up and going off on my own just so I am not associated with this anymore.

In the spirit of bushido!

Rob

[FieldDiscipline]

Chinto01, this is worrying. Whether he likes confrontation or not, the owner has a duty of care for this child.

[Jai]

It is sad that you are to the point where you are considering leaving your dojo because of something like this. I would try talking with your instructor again and let him know that you are not the only one seeing this. Does he have someone above him that you could maybe speak to as well if he refuses to address the problem?

[Tez3]

Ah people who don't like confrontation so they stick their head in the sand, nice! Dealing with these types is always tricky, you end up massaging their egos until they go off and do something. Perhaps when you speak to him you could start by saying how really difficult it is for him but the other students rely on him to sort things out and they know he will. You could point out that the situation will in the end make his students leave unless something is done. Sadly you have to put him in the situation where he feels he must do something or lose his school. It's not the best way to do it as he should have grasped the problem and sorted it as soon as it was noticed or brought to his attention. It's very cowardly of him to be honest. One of my pet hates is people who dither around!

[charyuop]

Creep me out? Not really. I agree that the dojo is the wrong place for anything which is not MA art tho, thus such a behaviour should be stopped.
As per the age of the 2 youngsters...having been a teenager myself I am not shocked by it. There is too much background to look at and that we don't know before making my own opinion. Can go from a simple friendship to real feelings by the girl side, from testing her female attraction-power to real stupidity of the guy. Might be something to worry about or might be something really innocent where worries are over reacting.
But I agree in the dojo is not appropriate since we live in a period/country where everyone is sue happy. Want to end this quick? Well considering how it works nowadays just go to her parents and the guy will end up in jail for molesting her (this yes creeps me out!).

[shesulsa]

Chinto, perhaps you might consider having a word with the 20 year old. He could go to jail, after all.

[tellner]

Chinto, it's his business. If he can't take care of business on this really basic level he shouldn't have one and probably will not for much longer.

The twenty year old should be thinking with the big head, not the little one. You'd be doing him a real favor if you told him so. Statutory rape is serious. The lifetime sex offender registration and "Child molestor" designation absolutely will ruin his life.

[jks9199]

Thanks to everyone for your replies. This has been going on for some time now. I have tried to approach the subject before with the school owner but he just seems to blow it off. He's not one for confrontation. That being said the reason I stay out of it I guess is because I don't want anything to do with it. I feel I have done all that I can do and now it is up to him. My next step is to have another conversation with him and let him know how this creeps me out. I have also considered leaving that dojo if it keeps up and going off on my own just so I am not associated with this anymore.

In the spirit of bushido!

Rob
You've got a lot more ammo from the posts here than you may have had before. Bluntly, if the head instructor isn't doing anything about it, he's condoning sexual harassment. In fact, some would probably suggest that YOU have a hostile environment complaint...

Another thing to consider is that you or another adult can confront the 20-year old instructor privately. Point out that his actions could be misconstrued, and he could find himself visiting the local PD every 30 days to update a sex offender registry... And that's possible if nothing happened outside of class!

[charyuop]

Another thing to consider is that you or another adult can confront the 20-year old instructor privately. Point out that his actions could be misconstrued, and he could find himself visiting the local PD every 30 days to update a sex offender registry... And that's possible if nothing happened outside of class!

Now that creeps me out. The poor guy might end up in jail as sex offender even if he actually did nothing. NOT SAYING THIS IS THE CASE, but it is enough that the guy jokes with the girl coz they are friends and someone gives a friendly tap on the back a different meaning, that it is enough to send the poor guy in jail.

Sorry, but I really hate this having already condamned the guy without knowing what happened. Head instructor and other people of the dojo don't say anything...at least a little doubt in my mind comes out.

[tellner]

Imagine, just for a second, what will happen when someone mentions this to the girl's parents. If they aren't complete failures as parents they'll do one of two things. They'll read the teacher the riot act and cause him a huge amount of grief. Or they'll simply pull their daughter from his class and make sure everyone they know is aware of how incompetent and uncaring the school is. Neither of them will be good for the school, the head instructor or anyone who goes there.

"You go to Dojo X? Oh yeah, they're the ones who let guys hit on underage girls. Don't stand too close to me, and get the hell away from my daughter."

[Touch Of Death]

Hello all. Wanted to see if this would creep you out the way it is creeping me out. At the dojo I work out at there is a 20 something black belt. He is o.k. never did anything to me so I have nothing against him except the following. He and this 14 y.o. female black belt are constantly flirting back and forth. I am not talking about batting of eyelashes or occasional glances here and there. I am talking about constant touching each other back and forth (a little "love" tap here a little touch to the shoulder there. It really makes me sick to see this. I have tried telling him that it may be a little inappropriate but he just blows me off and has continued to do it. What would you do in this situation ?I have kind of reserved to just let the cards fall where they may and when the junk really hits the fan tell him I told you so. Problem is it is not just me noticing it but the rest of the people in the dojo are beginning to notice.

In the spirit of bushido!

RobCall the proper authorities if you feel things are going to far. There is no need to tolerate these offenses. Let your Teacher know the school needs to clean it up or you will.
Sean

[Tez3]

Two things I thought of while walking home from training.
1. Does the lad know she's only 14?
2 14 is too young for a blackbelt in my opinion!

[Nomad]

It might not be a bad idea to print out this thread and bring it to your instructor so he gets an idea how outsiders are likely to view this type of behaviour, his inaction to curb it, and the potential legal repercussions to him and the dojo.

It is always easier to do nothing. When doing nothing creates a toxic environment (as evidenced by your "creeped out" feelings), the business owner must do something. As much as teaching you how to punch and kick, his job is to create a safe and comfortable environment for learning... and if he can't do that, his business cannot be successful.

[Twin Fist]

oh man

you guys have lept from what we were told actually happened to makingit out to be sexual harassment or assualt

from what we were told, the touch was not sexual in anyway

lets keep this in perspective people

[shesulsa]

oh man

you guys have lept from what we were told actually happened to makingit out to be sexual harassment or assualt

from what we were told, the touch was not sexual in anyway

lets keep this in perspective people
Wow. You still really don't get it, do you?

You see ... if she's under the age of consent or their ages are far enough apart then the consent must come from her parents. And to borrow a phrase from the Tentacular Tellner, If Her Parents Aren't Complete Failures they would NOT issue their consent at any sexual contact with this man. Should they see the way they really flirt and they care at all about her, they will deem that contact as unwanted, even if her daughter is a willing participant. Hence - LEGALLY - it *is* sexual harrassment.

It is not about the intent ... it is all about the perception on the part of the younger or the recipient.

It *is* what it *is* but legally ... his life quite seriously be ruined from this.

[Twin Fist]

no,i get it quite well. Apparently you are not getting my point.

What we KNOW is "A"

the posters here have taken "A" and jumped to "G" and maybe even all th e way to "L"

as of RIGHT NOW, no law has been broken that we know of, and untill we know that a law has been broken, talking about this behavior as harasssment or statuatory rape is inflamatory and alarmist.

I understand the concept of "consent" quite well, and you trying to explain it to me is not required.

Even using those terms is WAY out of proportion to what we KNOW to have happened.

the OP doesnt know if they have had sex, he doesnt know that they have ever even spoken to each other outside of class

at WORST, what we KNOW is simply un-professional behavior by two uppper belts. And nothing else.Talking about what it MIGHT BE is useless since we have ZERO evidence of anything other than flirting.

or was there a post somehwere I missed from the OP saying that he saw them making out?

[Mr G]

Gentlemen and Ladies,
Regardless of what has legally occurred, or what ever could be prosecuted, This does not meet the standards of our community. I have (generally) found martial artists to be mature individuals.

Let's help these two grow a little:

BOTH need a gentle reminder of what is and is not tolerated within the walls of the Dojo. They are both senior belts and therefore are role models for others. They need to realize how much junior watch what they do, and they need to present a better model. The belt means more than a great kick or a perfect form. Ask them to step up or step out.

Rob, Thank you for stepping up to help the young ones...

[chinto]

Thanks to everyone for your replies. This has been going on for some time now. I have tried to approach the subject before with the school owner but he just seems to blow it off. He's not one for confrontation. That being said the reason I stay out of it I guess is because I don't want anything to do with it. I feel I have done all that I can do and now it is up to him. My next step is to have another conversation with him and let him know how this creeps me out. I have also considered leaving that dojo if it keeps up and going off on my own just so I am not associated with this anymore.

In the spirit of bushido!

Rob


I would point out that as the person in charge and the fact that you have reported the conduct to him/her... their is the possibility of an accessory charge for not taking action if any thing out of line does happen! not to mention that any charge .. weather substantiated or not will certainly end the dojo ..

[jks9199]

no,i get it quite well. Apparently you are not getting my point.

What we KNOW is "A"

the posters here have taken "A" and jumped to "G" and maybe even all th e way to "L"

as of RIGHT NOW, no law has been broken that we know of, and untill we know that a law has been broken, talking about this behavior as harasssment or statuatory rape is inflamatory and alarmist.

I understand the concept of "consent" quite well, and you trying to explain it to me is not required.

Even using those terms is WAY out of proportion to what we KNOW to have happened.

the OP doesnt know if they have had sex, he doesnt know that they have ever even spoken to each other outside of class

at WORST, what we KNOW is simply un-professional behavior by two uppper belts. And nothing else.Talking about what it MIGHT BE is useless since we have ZERO evidence of anything other than flirting.

or was there a post somehwere I missed from the OP saying that he saw them making out?
Right now, based solely on the descriptions given in the OP's posts, we have inappropriate behavior between an instructor and a student which is disturbing and bothering other students. It's conduct of a sexual nature. Guess what? That meets the definition for sexual harassment.

Let's move this out of martial arts. Let's say it was a youth program; you have a 20 year old counselor/program director who's flirting with a 14 year old girl. There's physical contact -- even if not overtly sexual. Is it suddenly a bit more uncomfortable? No, we don't know that there's something going on. But there's an appearance of impropriety, and there's enough that the OP has gone to the head instructor previously. You might note that I have not condemned the 20 year old; I don't know exactly what's happened. But given the circumstances -- he's making some bad choices in how he's acting around this girl. And it's something that needs to be addressed by someone in a position to observe the behavior directly.

[tellner]

I have (generally) found martial artists to be mature individuals.

:)
:p
:D
:lol2:
:rofl:

*wheeze*

*gasp*

Yeah, generally mature individuals.