Tae Guek applications text?

[IcemanSK]

In the wake of StuartA's book on applications for Chang Hon tul, I gotta ask: is there a resource detailing applications for Tae Guek poomsae? That too, would be invaluable to many.

[terryl965]

In the wake of StuartA's book on applications for Chang Hon tul, I gotta ask: is there a resource detailing applications for Tae Guek poomsae? That too, would be invaluable to many.

The Kukkiwon Tae Kwon Do textbook and a few other. I just cannot remember there names right now. Get back to you later today.

[IcemanSK]

The Kukkiwon Tae Kwon Do textbook and a few other. I just cannot remember there names right now. Get back to you later today.

I'll await your list of other resources. The KKW textbook's applications are sparse & inadequate. IMO

[terryl965]

I'll await your list of other resources. The KKW textbook's applications are sparse & inadequate. IMO


Iceman one of the books is Black Belt Tae Kwon Do by Yeo Hwan Park and Jon Gerrald, in this one he gives the like in koryo movement 2a: pivot on the left foot to execute a low side kick toward d with the right foot.Meaning counterattacking kickto the knee.

This ahs got to be one of the better books out there, but it still lacks alot of all the elements withen.

[DavidCC]

A quick search of Amazon shows this, does this appear to have what yo uneed (if you go to the Amazon page you can actually browse the contents fo the book itself! very cool, like going to the book store and browsing)

Complete Taekwondo Poomsae: The Official Taegeuk, Palgwae and Black Belt Forms of Taekwondo (Paperback) (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1880336928/tag=kunfubooonl-20)
"...The instructional text is supplemented with information about the meaning, movement line and symbol of each form as well as the correct execution of each new movement introduced in the form. In addition to the 25 official Poomsae, the authors explain Poomsae theory and principles to help you understand the underlying concepts of Poomsae practice..."

DVD to go with it
DVD - Taekwondo Taegeuk Poomse # 1-8 (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000066E8E/tag=kunfubooonl-20)

[terryl965]

David while that is a great book, I beleive Iceman is looking for something more in they way the SD principle are broking down like some of the Chon-ji books are.

[IcemanSK]

David while that is a great book, I beleive Iceman is looking for something more in they way the SD principle are broking down like some of the Chon-ji books are.


You are correct, sir.

David,
Sang H. Kim's dvd's are great for demonstrating the forms. But his applications leave a lot to be desired. Which is odd because many of his resources have many great detailed applications in them.

[Laurentkd]

I thought Exile knew someone who was coming out with this type of book??

[terryl965]

I thought Exile knew someone who was coming out with this type of book??

Yes Stuart Anderson but he only does the Chon-Ji set of Tuls and not the Tae Gueks. I may just have to write a book about it

[exile]

Actually, the person I was thinking of is Simon John O'Neil, whose Combat TKD newsletters amount to a small book on TKD applications; he actually has a book coming out later this year primarily focused, as I understand from my communications with him, on Taegeuk applications. He has a very good article in TKD Times from January, 2006 as I recall, titled 'Recycling kicks for Self-defense' or something like that, which gives a kind of preview of his approach. A lot of my thinking about TKD hyungs has been shaped by what he's written in his newsletters, and I'm eagerly awaiting publication of his book.

The last I heard from him, the text was done, but the photos were still being shot. It's been a while... will check in with him soon and let you all know what I hear from him.

[terryl965]

Actually, the person I was thinking of is Simon John O'Neil, whose Combat TKD newsletters amount to a small book on TKD applications; he actually has a book coming out later this year primarily focused, as I understand from my communications with him, on Taegeuk applications. He has a very good article in TKD Times from January, 2006 as I recall, titled 'Recycling kicks for Self-defense' or something like that, which gives a kind of preview of his approach. A lot of my thinking about TKD hyungs has been shaped by what he's written in his newsletters, and I'm eagerly awaiting publication of his book.

The last I heard from him, the text was done, but the photos were still being shot. It's been a while... will check in with him soon and let you all know what I hear from him.


Yes but I heard that book will not be ready until the end of this year, so are there any others that are out there. Because I own a freaky library and do not have one. That is a terrible thing.

[exile]

Yes but I heard that book will not be ready until the end of this year, so are there any others that are out there. Because I own a freaky library and do not have one. That is a terrible thing.

End of the year? :wah:

Well, maybe it'll be ready in time to make a nice Christmas present to myself. Gotta look on the bright side...

What I'd really like to see as well is a text on applications for the Palgwes. SJO'N says that given the relatively marginal status of the Palgwes even now in most TKD dojang syllabi, it wasn't cost-effective for him to spend a huge amount of extra time including material from them as well in the book, which is a great pity, because both you and I and quite a few others would be interested in something like that... but the market isn't there, apparently (though from what I've heard, the Palgwes are enjoying something of a minor revival in tournament competition, at least—the judges have seen the Taegeuks so many times that something relatively spectacular like Palgwe Chil Jang sort of catches their eye and gives the competitor who can do them cleanly a real advantage).

[StuartA]

In the wake of StuartA's book on applications for Chang Hon tul, I gotta ask: is there a resource detailing applications for Tae Guek poomsae? That too, would be invaluable to many.

I believe Simon O'neil has been working on such a project for a while. not sure where hes at with it though.

Stuart

[StuartA]

opps.. just read the whole thread and see exiles already mentioned it.. sorry.

[exile]

opps.. just read the whole thread and see exiles already mentioned it.. sorry.

Nothing to be sorry about, S—these days, I can use every reality check on my own understanding of events that I can get! :erg:

[newGuy12]

Well at least we have the book by StuartA about General Choi's forms (thank you Sir). We can of course try to get insight into the TaeGuk forms using that book.

As far as a book about TaeGuk forms' applications, we shall see if it happens. If it does, I am sure that this forum will light up about it.

I am still of the mind that it may never happen, but who knows? So little time, so much to do! The applications themselves open up a whole world full of learning. This is something completely unknown to many, myself included.

[YoungMan]

The ones who really know (Hae Man Park and his generation) are most likely not going to write a book about proper forms interpretation. The Oriental way is to teach through direct contact.
In other words, if you want to learn what the forms are actually doing, you will have to train with these guys when you have a chance.

[terryl965]

The ones who really know (Hae Man Park and his generation) are most likely not going to write a book about proper forms interpretation. The Oriental way is to teach through direct contact.
In other words, if you want to learn what the forms are actually doing, you will have to train with these guys when you have a chance.

This is a very great point and Thank you for pointing it out.

[IcemanSK]

The ones who really know (Hae Man Park and his generation) are most likely not going to write a book about proper forms interpretation. The Oriental way is to teach through direct contact.
In other words, if you want to learn what the forms are actually doing, you will have to train with these guys when you have a chance.

I guess I'll have to figure out how to get one-on-one time with him & bring a translator with me when I see him next year.

[exile]

I'm reluctant to attribute mystical knowledge or secret esoteric wisdom to the the Kwan founders or other MAists of their generation. There is plenty of evidence that even the first generation Kwan founders didn't learn the full range of interpretations of the forms, because their own Shotokan teachers either didn't (as Motobu commented critically about Funakoshi) or didn't transmit to the Japanese (as Gennosuke Higaki discusses in his book on the Pinan/Heian kata set and their bunkai, the Okinawans didn't really want to teach the Japanese the deeper applications, and had a kind of gentleman's agreement not to, and given the class structure that Funakoshi and the other Okinawan expats operated by, it's unlikely that they would have taught Koreans anything they were unwilling to teach their Japanese patrons). Rob Mclain, Upnorthkyosa, Kwan Jang and Stuart himself have a bunch of posts detailing their evidence that the Kwan founders weren't really trained in the deep bunkai for the forms they learned , which became recycled into the Palgwes, Chang Hon and Taegeuks by recombining/mixmastering the subparts of the kata the Kwan founders learned in their Japanese MA educations (see Part 2 of Stuart's pdf file here (http://www.raynerslanetkd.com/downloadables/HaeSul/Taekwondo_Haesul_Preview.pdf), for those who don't have his book).

What Stuart's work, Simon O'Neil's, and many other contemporary MAists have shown is that it is possible to recover extremely effective, sensible and realistic combat techs from the forms by the kind of 'reverse engineering' that Upnorthkyosa and others have explored in detail. There may be older applications that have been lost, but there is absolutely no reason why they can't be recovered, if we work hard and critically on bunkai/boon hae/hae sul analysis. Mystification of the past and its lost arcane knowledge is one of the curses of the MAs . These systems were created by hardworking professionals, and their 'lost secrets' can be recovered by careful analysis and serious stress-testing of the forms themselves.

Let me give you an example of the same thing from another domain I'm familiar with: manuscript illumination and mediæval calligraphy. The master scribes of that era had certain shop practices that they used to expedite their jobs, which were done under great time pressure and the need to reduce as much as possible to simple, practical rules of thumb. For a long time, it was suspected that the page layout formats of their manuscript creations were determined by a straightforward bag of tricks based on the dimensions of a double-page opening, but no one could see how it worked. But in the early 1960s, Jan Tschichold, a renowned Swiss calligrapher and type designer, cracked the code, after studying hundreds of ancient and mediæval mss. The lost 'Golden Rectangle', the ideally sized and place text area used universally in the scriptoria of the Middle Ages and the early Renaissance, could now be duplicated by novice calligraphers. The method, which Tschichold labelled 'The Canon', is based on the diagonals and other simply calculated distances of a double page opening. Not having access to the working scribal masters of a millenium ago, Tchichold set out to discover their secrets on the basis of their creations... and succeeded brilliantly. There's no reason whatever that we cannot do the same things ourselves, if we set our minds to it and learn as much as we can of past knowledge before setting out on our own. And I think that, when Simon O'N's book, and the others that are sure to follow, emerge, that we will see applications every bit as practical and effective as those envisioned by the masters of the past.

I'm hoping Terry's book, the one he suggested writing, will be one of the ones waiting there in the future for us... :)

[IcemanSK]

[quote=exile;977905]I'm reluctant to attribute mystical knowledge or secret esoteric wisdom to the the Kwan founders or other MAists of their generation.


In this case, exile, it's not an issue of attributing wisdom on GM Park, it's a horse's mouth sort of issue. Since GM Park, Hae Man was one of the men who designed the Tae Gueks, he can accurately discuss the intent of the techniques.

Your point is well made in the case of most other folks, though.

[YoungMan]

We're not talking mysticism here, we're talking forms application. And I don't think it's necessary to look at Japanese forms for "proper" interpretation. Hae Man Park, Woon Kyu Uhm, and other senior masters of Taekwondo know enough about vital points, power, technique, and application that referencing some Japanese form in the hopes it will give you needed or "correct" info is unnecessary.

[exile]

In this case, exile, it's not an issue of attributing wisdom on GM Park, it's a horse's mouth sort of issue. Since GM Park, Hae Man was one of the men who designed the Tae Gueks, he can accurately discuss the intent of the techniques.


Have you seen or heard of any sources where he or any of the other Taegeuk designers ever said anything about street-practical applications of those forms, Ice? I've seen suggested 'applications' in various places, but these were mostly extremely unrealistic.

[IcemanSK]

Have you seen or heard of any sources where he or any of the other Taegeuk designers ever said anything about street-practical applications of those forms, Ice? I've seen suggested 'applications' in various places, but these were mostly extremely unrealistic.


No I haven't. That's why I'd ask GM Park when given the chance.

[terryl965]

No I haven't. That's why I'd ask GM Park when given the chance.

And when you do please post what he says. How about talking to GM Sells about it he knows Park.

[IcemanSK]

And when you do please post what he says. How about talking to GM Sells about it he knows Park.

Yeah, that's not a bad idea. GM Sell is a direct student of GM Park.

[terryl965]

Yeah, that's not a bad idea. GM Sell is a direct student of GM Park.

Yes I know

[IcemanSK]

Yes I know

I just mentioned it for those who were unaware.

[terryl965]

I just mentioned it for those who were unaware.

I know and when you talk to him please post the result for all of us.

[GlassJaw]

Have you seen or heard of any sources where he or any of the other Taegeuk designers ever said anything about street-practical applications of those forms, Ice? I've seen suggested 'applications' in various places, but these were mostly extremely unrealistic.

GM Hae Man Park visited our dojang last autumn and conducted a forms seminar. On a number of occasions, he paused to indicate the actions of the hypothetical attacker(s) so that we could execute our blocks at the correct angles and our counters at the right targets.

It wasn't along the lines of "an attacker might be doing X", but rather, "the attacker is doing X". It gave me the distinct impression that not only are there potential defense scenarios behind every form in the Taegeuk series (of course), but that the scenarios are as set in stone as the defense movements themselves. I've always thought that was the case, but for me this was confirmation.

In some places I suspect that there have been compromises of practicality for the sake of symmetry and aesthetics but it has become clear to me that every move addresses a predetermined particular unseen opponent.

Now we just have to get the "bad guys" on the street to develop a complementary set of forms which put them in the right positions performing the same moves we're defending against.

Dan

P.S., I am idly curious whether some of the Korean-generated TKD forms series exhibit an emphasis on defending against techniques that are associated more closely with karate than with TKD.

[SageGhost83]

P.S., I am idly curious whether some of the Korean-generated TKD forms series exhibit an emphasis on defending against techniques that are associated more closely with karate than with TKD.

Well that's the thing - a lot of the sequences found within TKD forms were lifted directly from Karate, therefore, Karate holds a lot of clues as to the applications of what is found in TKD forms. The two styles are not that far removed form each other. I personally use the Bunkai rules I learned in Karate to gain insight into TKD forms and I have found some pretty interesting and highly effective apps within the forms. Beware of "dingle hoppers", though :lol:.

[YoungMan]

And the fallacy here is thinking that only by studying Japanese forms will you learn how to use Korean forms. Not true. Korean forms have their own insight and philosophy.

[SageGhost83]

And the fallacy here is thinking that only by studying Japanese forms will you learn how to use Korean forms. Not true. Korean forms have their own insight and philosophy.

I wasn't suggesting that, either. I was saying that since the two styles share a common base that one could be *helpful* in finding applications for the other, not that you *need* one to find the applications for the other. If style A imported a technique from style B, then you could find the application for the technique by looking in style B since that is where that technique originated from. Japanese Karateka often look to Okinawan Karate to find extra apps within their own katas, as well.

[YoungMan]

Understood. Unfortunately, some individuals have strongly hinted that only by studying Japanese and Okinawan forms will we truly understand Korean forms. I believe this is false.
Over the course of its existence, Taekwondo has developed its own way and reasons for doing things, whether in forms, kicking, sparring, or self defense.

[GlassJaw]

Well that's the thing - a lot of the sequences found within TKD forms were lifted directly from Karate, therefore, Karate holds a lot of clues as to the applications of what is found in TKD forms. The two styles are not that far removed form each other. I personally use the Bunkai rules I learned in Karate to gain insight into TKD forms and I have found some pretty interesting and highly effective apps within the forms. Beware of "dingle hoppers", though :lol:.

While my comment was largely tongue-in-cheek, what I was getting at was that, in choreographing the Korean forms, the designers had opportunity (albeit, very slight) to engineer in subtle combat advantage over the Japanese by planning for attackers who behave more like karateka than like TKDers.

That way, when a TKDer faces a karateka in a combat situation, the TKDer, being theoretically slightly more practiced against his opponent's style than the opponent is against TKD, would have an advantage and serve to promote a nationalistic notion that Korean TKD is "superior" to Japanese karate.

Yeah, I know. . .the very idea that one style (rather than an individual practitioner's skills) could be all-around demonstrably superior to any other is rather ridiculous. And the suggestion that nationalism may have noticeably affected the effectiveness of our forms against any particular style is a bit far-fetched. However, if the forms were developed at a time when the typical opponent or even "trained street thug" may have been stereotyped as a karateka, a bias could have slipped in there anyway.

Dan

[SageGhost83]

While my comment was largely tongue-in-cheek, what I was getting at was that, in choreographing the Korean forms, the designers had opportunity (albeit, very slight) to engineer in subtle combat advantage over the Japanese by planning for attackers who behave more like karateka than like TKDers.

That way, when a TKDer faces a karateka in a combat situation, the TKDer, being theoretically slightly more practiced against his opponent's style than the opponent is against TKD, would have an advantage and serve to promote a nationalistic notion that Korean TKD is "superior" to Japanese karate.

What would this combat advantage be, so to speak? Every Karateka is different and Karate itself is a very diverse art that contains many strategies, some even similar to TKD, so there really is no "combat advantage". They "engineered" the forms, but did they understand the forms and the bunkai that was in there to begin with? Did they actually know what they were doing when they created these forms, or did they just put them together or remix the existing ones to say "look! we have forms too and they look better than yours!" I seriously doubt that they would've changed the forms if they understood the applications behind them becuase a lot of the bunkai is downright nasty and, assuming that they have common sense, they would've kept those forms around to retain those devastating applications to use for themselves (if they knew them, which they didn't). Most of the "engineering" was a thinly veiled attempt to de-japanize their style and make it different from the original so that they could say that it was exclusively Korean and had no links to Japan (and sadly, some people believe the nationalist propaganda wholeheartedly). The only way to be more practiced against another style is to actually spar against people who are very proficient in that style. So no, they wouldn't have an advantage over the Karateka on that basis. As always, it would come down to who was the better individual, period. You're thinking outside of the box though, and that is good :cheers:.