Hi

Anybody pratice knife defences in Aikido?

I know that the bokken and Jo are used as defence weapons and attack weapons in aikido, but does anybody learn how to use a knife, when praticing knife defences?

/Yari

Yes in my dojo we train for knife defences using a wooden tanto. Fun stuff...(grin)..



Despair Bear

I nearly took an eye out once with a wooden tanto--I switched to rubber, or at least rounded, knives only after that. The tanto came to a wooden point! It opened a cut just below the eye.

Yes I can belive that, I was cut once with a shinai (sp?), the tip had poked threw the end of the leather. I use different knives when we actualy do knife fighting as well as some protective gear (mostly helmets).



Despair Bear

We use a few different types of training knives; wooden tanto, leather covered tanto, aluminum training knife. I personally like the aluminum for the feel of cold steel on the flesh, tends to raise the conciousness.
respectfully,
Guro Dan McConnell
IMAF inc. Board of Directors
Modern Arnis of Ohio
Hilliard Budo Center

Originally posted by Mao
I personally like the aluminum for the feel of cold steel on the flesh, tends to raise the conciousness.

Agreed!

We do knife defenses in my dojo but we don't really learn to fight with the knife as it were. We DO, however, try to figure out how to inflict "incidental" damage with the knife during the technique..... oops, he stabbed at me and missed and fell on it while I was trying to defend myself.;)

Originally posted by arnisador
I nearly took an eye out once with a wooden tanto--I switched to rubber, or at least rounded, knives only after that. The tanto came to a wooden point! It opened a cut just below the eye. I'm not trying to be denigrating here, but isn't it the point of practicing with a wooden weapon that the risk of injury remains? I use a bokken for kenjutsu practice and a wooden tanto for tanto-tori. Of course it has a 'sharp' tip. And my bokken will kill you if it connects with your temple. That's why it's important to study a move slowly at first and speed up later. I don't think I'd like to practice with a rubber knife... or a rubber sword, for that matter.

The aluminum training blades are ok but theres nothing like real steel to simulate real steel. Last month I went to Wal-mart and bought a cheap fixed bladed knife for $15. Took it home and used a belt sander with 50 grit paper to take off the edge and round the tip. Took less than 5 minutes. It's very nice to work with since it is weighted correctly and feels.....well real. When uke gets touched by it the feel is also.....well...real. I figure it is about half the price of a decent aluminum training blades I have seen and feels much better.

mark

Knife defense in Aikido...lol...:rofl:

My last comment was uncalled for. I was just messin' around.

In all seriousness, I have done Aikido myself...I am actually ranked in the art. I have compared the aikido knife defense with my Filipino Martial Art knife defense.

The problem that I found exists on a beginner level. There is no actual weapon hand control because you are relying on your ability to use the opponents energy against them rather then control them. The Uke's often use only one very commited attack, and are then thrown.

Now I am sure if one attains a great amount of skill in the art then Aikido knife disarms could be effective. However, most of the disarms I have seen and tryed, for a beginner (and I am talking black belt beginners) to try to pull off these techniques against someone determined would be suicide! It's just the way Aikido is practiced...I rarely see the UKE act like a determined knife attacker. I only see 1 commited attack, like an overhand stab, underhand stab, or step in slash. A committed Uke is going to redirect his attack over and over, chopping you to bits.

Now in defense to Aikido, all knife disarming is sucide anyways, especially with a beginner. Doesn't matter what art. Empty hand vs. knife should only be used as a last resort, period.

So, I'll reinerate one more time because I am sure that it seems as if I am slamming on Aikido...not my intent. For beginner or even the intermediate practitioner, Aikido knife disarms are not very effective because these students don't have the attributes to pull them off yet. However, I always have seen Aikido as a life study, not an immediate form of self defense. In light of this, an expert would have the attributes needed to execute the empty hand vs. knife techniques, making Aikido vs. knife very effective. It all depends on what stage of the game your in!

:asian:

When coupled with 'real fighting experience' aikido tanto-tori can be devastating... I've been into knifefights before I started aikido practice.
The problem with tanto tori is that nage has to be in complete control and have excellent timing to execute tanto-tori techniques at a level were it's applicable in the street. And it would only work if you know the opponent has a knife [i.e. when he's threatening with it].
That said, there is no way to stop a truly commited knife-attack - if someone grabs you with the left hand, pulls you close and plants a [hidden] knife in your kidneys, there's not much you can do.

Originally posted by Reprobate
When coupled with 'real fighting experience' aikido tanto-tori can be devastating... I've been into knifefights before I started aikido practice.
The problem with tanto tori is that nage has to be in complete control and have excellent timing to execute tanto-tori techniques at a level were it's applicable in the street. And it would only work if you know the opponent has a knife [i.e. when he's threatening with it].
That said, there is no way to stop a truly commited knife-attack - if someone grabs you with the left hand, pulls you close and plants a [hidden] knife in your kidneys, there's not much you can do.

I like your insight above at the top, but in the scenario described at the bottom, why would their hand get to your kidneys (or stomach, liver, chest, etc.) in the first place, knife in hand or not? There's plenty that could have been done. If he grabs me with his left hand and pulls me close then I only have one hand with a potential weapon to deal with along with the added mometum of the pull to use. I think I understand what you were implying, but there are methods to deal with ambush/surprise attacks which actually work against fully resistant opponents.

I make a strong distinction between visible and hidden knife-attacks:
-a visible knife attack is the mark of the amateur: waving the blade around and lunging at the opponent. Depending on the skill level of the attacker and intended victim, a tanto-tori technique might work.
-a hidden knife attack is the mark of the experienced fighter: attacking with an empty hand, and suddenly lashing/stabbing with a knife not previously shown. Chances of successfully defending against such an attack with 'tanto-tori' are slim to none, again depending on the skill levels of both attacker and victim.

I myself have defended myself against a hidden knife attack by performing a nikkyo on an attacker's free hand, however I didn't know if he was armed until the knife clattered on the bricks. To mention that at the sight of the knife my virtuous intention to avoid harming him dissolved is perhaps superfluous...

In short, I keep my distance from anyone I remotely expect to wield a knife... which means, anyone who approaches me aggressively with his hands hidden. Furthermore, if I have an argument with someone and he puts his hand in his pocket [without informing me of his intentions], I will put his lights out and worry about legal matters later...

Yes, a determined and skilled knifer is going to get a cut in much more often than not. Luckily, many out there are not so skilled.

Originally posted by arnisador
Yes, a determined and skilled knifer is going to get a cut in much more often than not. Luckily, many out there are not so skilled.
Still, like I posted, do not underestimate the visible knife attack - best avoided for maximum damage control...

Originally posted by Reprobate
Still, like I posted, do not underestimate the visible knife attack - best avoided for maximum damage control...

No argument!

Originally posted by Reprobate
Still, like I posted, do not underestimate the visible knife attack - best avoided for maximum damage control...

Agreed!

Every now and then we'll practice with wooden tantos or "the sea-green plastic knives of doom!". :D I remember one time when two of the black belts were "playing" with each other before class and they accidentally broke one of the sea-green plastic knives! FOR SHAME!!! :eek: :rofl: ;)

Robyn :asian:

Oh wow! I just reverted back to a blue belt! A few minutes ago I was still purple! The moderators must be moving more threads into the Bar & Grill. That's fine with me! ;)

Originally posted by The Opal Dragon
Oh wow! I just reverted back to a blue belt! A few minutes ago I was still purple! The moderators must be moving more threads into the Bar & Grill.

Sorry, but it happens from time to time! A few big threads were recently moved in there.

That's fine with me!

Thanks!

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-

It's silly (and girly) of me but I like the prettier belt colors on Martial Talk and I enjoy changing my avatars to try to match it. :o I wouldn't be sad if I was reverted back to green as it's fun going through the colors. And besides, once you hit black, that's it. ;) :)

Robyn :asian:

And besides, once you hit black, that's it. Yeah, but black goes with anything!;)
I prefer the knife and gun disarms that I am learning in aikido to those that I have learned in other arts for the simple reason that all of them (that I've seen so far) call for immediate control of the knife hand vice several strikes to nerve bundles before controlling the weapon. It just seems to me that any first strike that isn't a controlling movement is giving your attacker more time to employ his/her weapon.

This discussion might be interesting in this light:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12240

It was split off from here:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12170

If you go to WWW.Aikido-McEwen.com and the click on the video catagory, you will find a great knife disarm video!!!!!!!

Originally posted by Jas
If you go to WWW.Aikido-McEwen.com and the click on the video catagory, you will find a great knife disarm video!!!!!!!

The link wouldn't work for me. :( Possibly the site itself is down so hopefully it'll work later???????

Robyn :asian:

That site is down for now. JAS I am under the understanding that the knife and gun disarms in Nihon Goshin Aikido are taken from ninjutsu/ninpo and are not the disarms that were originally taught in NGA. Sooo, if that site is down and you can find a QUALITY ninjutsu site you should still be able to get a look at what the knife disarms for NGA look like.

((JAS: greetings from the Roanoke, Va NGA dojo. Glad to see you back in here))