What if the art you love is the sport you hate?

[matt.m]

I enjoy TKD, the old school traditional non mcdojo dungeon and mat type of TKD. A lot of sweat and grunting, cadence style poomsea/hyung.

I tell you with few exceptions there are no more schools like that. No for the most part I see these buy your black belt as long as your check doesn't bounce in a year crap. I hate it.

I know Judo is Japanese, but it is no different. It all depends on if you learned from a hard core Korean who learned from the Yudo academy in Korea.

Just my .02.

[terryl965]

Matt there are still alot of what I call traditional TKD school, they just are not as properlar because of the Mc Dojo's that are out there.

[Bodhisattva]

I enjoy TKD, the old school traditional non mcdojo dungeon and mat type of TKD. A lot of sweat and grunting, cadence style poomsea/hyung.

I tell you with few exceptions there are no more schools like that. No for the most part I see these buy your black belt as long as your check doesn't bounce in a year crap. I hate it.

I know Judo is Japanese, but it is no different. It all depends on if you learned from a hard core Korean who learned from the Yudo academy in Korea.

Just my .02.

There are some great Judo schools in the states...

[StuartA]

Matt,

Its not that there arnt schools like that around, though I admit they are heavily out numbered.. I think the problems lies in the fact that there isnt an organisation for these sort of schools around.. until now

www.pioneertkd.com (http://www.pioneertkd.com)

(Hope thats okay to post Mr Moderator.. if not, feel free to delete).

Stuart

Ps. This is the first place its been mentioned anywhere :-)

[matt.m]

I am more or less venting. However, I have seen so many "Competition Only" judo school's. Guys I am not kidding I took my class to a few different schools to randori. My white belts were destroying their green and brown belts.

I am telling you that the true dojangs are too far and between. When instructor's believe more in competition and medals and forget that if you just do reps after reps after reps you will build champions.

[terryl965]

I am more or less venting. However, I have seen so many "Competition Only" judo school's. Guys I am not kidding I took my class to a few different schools to randori. My white belts were destroying their green and brown belts.

I am telling you that the true dojangs are too far and between. When instructor's believe more in competition and medals and forget that if you just do reps after reps after reps you will build champions.

I agree Matt and I have been venting for 10 years, but you know what a GM told me in a meeting that we are only a refection of our GM and we must follow our hearts. I know we or I should say I will do what I need to to carry on that memory of my GM.

[hongkongfooey]

I enjoy TKD, the old school traditional non mcdojo dungeon and mat type of TKD. A lot of sweat and grunting, cadence style poomsea/hyung.

I tell you with few exceptions there are no more schools like that. No for the most part I see these buy your black belt as long as your check doesn't bounce in a year crap. I hate it.

I know Judo is Japanese, but it is no different. It all depends on if you learned from a hard core Korean who learned from the Yudo academy in Korea.

Just my .02.


Man, can I feel your pain! I don't do TKD, I do Kenpo. It's the same thing.
Too many schools focus on kids, and not enough on teaching the system effectively. I am so tired of Kenpo people taking about how deadly our system is. Most of these "warriors" don't even understand the lessons the material is supposed to teach them.

[exile]

Matt,

Its not that there arnt schools like that around, though I admit they are heavily out numbered.. I think the problems lies in the fact that there isnt an organisation for these sort of schools around.. until now

www.pioneertkd.com (http://www.pioneertkd.com)

(Hope thats okay to post Mr Moderator.. if not, feel free to delete).

Stuart

Ps. This is the first place its been mentioned anywhere :-)

Stuart, this looks very interesting. I take it you are primarily UK based? I know your Membership info allows for non-British individual members, but the main body of your membership is still British, yes?

[Twin Fist]

look to texas

a lot, and i mean a LOT, prob MOST TKD here comes from Jhoon Rhee, though Allen Steen

it is original, self defense, no olympics, hard core TKD

[exile]

look to texas

a lot, and i mean a LOT, prob MOST TKD here comes from Jhoon Rhee, though Allen Steen

it is original, self defense, no olympics, hard core TKD

Tex Kwon Do, as per Terry's sig line! :)

[Hand Sword]

Not a TKD practitoner, but, I think what the question is asking has gone on, generally spaeking, in the MA world already. McDojos and Mcsystems everywhere!

[StuartA]

Stuart, this looks very interesting. I take it you are primarily UK based? I know your Membership info allows for non-British individual members, but the main body of your membership is still British, yes?

Exile,
In answer to your question, the answer is yes and no.. Ill go into that further if you like but if possible, please feel free to move this to another thread so I/we dont end up hijacking this one.

Stuart

[exile]

Exile,
In answer to your question, the answer is yes and no.. Ill go into that further if you like but if possible, please feel free to move this to another thread so I/we dont end up hijacking this one.

Stuart

Just for myself, Stuart, I think this is fine and relevant to Matt's OP. But it might be good for you to start a thread specifically on this topic— Member Announcements seems like it would be a good place for it (?)—since it's one in which a lot of people will be interested. As you've probably observed by this point, a lot of the TKDers on MT are devotees of 'old school' TKD and its street-defense ethic. Matt's OP is very representative of the way a lot of us feel—the thread title captures our view perfectly!

[igillman]

What has happened is that a lot of people are "persuing a black belt" instead of "persuing skill in the art". This means that their goal is a black belt instead of it being knowledge and skill. A lot of the schools are going to give people what they want (the black belt) instead of what they need (the knowledge and skills). When we pay for something we expect to get it, therefore when we pay for testing we expect to pass. The more money we pay the more we expect to pass. A lot of schools do not want to fail anybody because they fear they will lose their customers (money vs skill) so they would rather pass a sub-standard student.

It used to be that a Black Belt would fight like Bruce Lee, now a lot of them I see fight like Bruce Forsyth.

[StuartA]

Just for myself, Stuart, I think this is fine and relevant to Matt's OP. But it might be good for you to start a thread specifically on this topic— Member Announcements seems like it would be a good place for it (?)—since it's one in which a lot of people will be interested. As you've probably observed by this point, a lot of the TKDers on MT are devotees of 'old school' TKD and its street-defense ethic. Matt's OP is very representative of the way a lot of us feel—the thread title captures our view perfectly!

Okay.. Ill start a seperate thread as its been 'okayed' by a mod (I didnt as I wasnt sure if it was allowed or not). For now Ill keep it in the TKD section as its not technically announced officially yet.

Stuart

[terryl965]

What has happened is that a lot of people are "persuing a black belt" instead of "persuing skill in the art". This means that their goal is a black belt instead of it being knowledge and skill. A lot of the schools are going to give people what they want (the black belt) instead of what they need (the knowledge and skills). When we pay for something we expect to get it, therefore when we pay for testing we expect to pass. The more money we pay the more we expect to pass. A lot of schools do not want to fail anybody because they fear they will lose their customers (money vs skill) so they would rather pass a sub-standard student.

It used to be that a Black Belt would fight like Bruce Lee, now a lot of them I see fight like Bruce Forsyth.

The only problem I see with your statement is this, that I highlighted. Where in society does it say if you pay you pass, I have lost a new BB just the other day because he did not want to learn my system of TKD it was not what he calle dTKD and like I told him he can stay and learn or leave and go back to his McDojo. After one day he came back to train but he wanted it and I told him no, remember the pasture is greened over there for you. I will not scarcfice my Art for money plain and simple and students will come and go and all of that stuff.

[Tez3]

What has happened is that a lot of people are "persuing a black belt" instead of "persuing skill in the art". This means that their goal is a black belt instead of it being knowledge and skill. A lot of the schools are going to give people what they want (the black belt) instead of what they need (the knowledge and skills). When we pay for something we expect to get it, therefore when we pay for testing we expect to pass. The more money we pay the more we expect to pass. A lot of schools do not want to fail anybody because they fear they will lose their customers (money vs skill) so they would rather pass a sub-standard student.

It used to be that a Black Belt would fight like Bruce Lee, now a lot of them I see fight like Bruce Forsyth.


Who said Brucie couldn't fight? Nice to fight you,nice!

I agree with what you are saying about people paying and expecting to receive their grading and about the schools that will pass anyone for money! I've seen it in karate clubs before.

[SageGhost83]

There is a niche being filled by these money first, blackbelt factory schools, and that niche is the I-am-too-lazy-to-earn-it-but-I-still-want-it-so-give-it-to-me segment of society. They want to be a "blackbelt" so they can brag and try to cover up the fact that they are really lazy and they couldn't cut it in a real school, so they pay their way through and end up wearing the belt while lacking the skills. Then they get the crap kicked out of them, their contest posted to youtube, and TKD labelled as being ineffective :mad::lol:. Thank goodness for people like Terryl965, there is still hope for good TKD in this world.

[igillman]

Tez3 - That is probably part of the "Generation Game" with the younger generation being more inclined to buy the belt rather than earn it. In some places, if the "Price is Right" and you "Play Your Cards Right" "You Bet" that the phrase "What do dollars make? Black Belts!" is true. You will probably find a black belt on the conveyer belt at the end of the show with the fondu set and cuddly toy.

Terryl965 - I have rethought what I was trying to say with regards to the testing and I think I may have it this time. People are under the impression that they are paying for advancement instead of paying for the opportunity to advance if they are good enough. The difference being the level of expectation of the outcome.

[matt.m]

Boy oh boy do I have a message for you guys. I know this manager at a library close to my house. She and I have talked about her school. I have talked about mine, period.

Anyway, she is a red belt/black promotable and only going 2 times a week for 11 months. She is the nicest lady in the world. Very much into the budo of the art and her heart is in the right place. However, in MSK I tested my white belts to yellow after 8 months. In hapkido it is about a belt a year.

I was at a mall over the weekend and saw a 2nd dan from another McDojo and she said she had been going to the same school for 2 and a half years.

Man, I told my students on their 1st day that it would take them the following: Blood, Sweat, Tears, Growing Together as a group, and 4-5 yrs. of a lot of reps.

There are only 2 other judo schools in st. l that I know of, and I have been to them all that feel and do the same as I do............kind of my mentors and friends Bong Yul Shin and Dan Hurt.

It just seems that even though Judo is a Japanese art......when transferred to the ideology of the Korean Yudo system it is just so much harder.

I am proud of my students, they work hard for me and they try and help each other on technique correction. Maybe it's because I was a Sgt. in the Marines but man I have them growing as a group and loving it. It is all about them and their success. I don't care, I am done and ya know what they say, "Those who can't compete teach."

[terryl965]

Matt just keep doing what you do and forget about everybody else.

[Deaf Smith]

If you really love you art, you must contract a severe case of TB. That's 'True Believer'.

I don't train to get a belt (I know, one see's the 5th dan and things 'what the heck'?) I actually didn't start training again for the belt. I didn't care. But my teacher, a 7th dan Korean, kind of push me into it. And he didn't get a bunch of money, I assure you.

As for sport, I consider Olympic style TKD as, well like boxing, except they use their feet. Some of the methods are very interesting and I do intend on picking them up to add to my tool set (same for boxing, I definatly DO have some of those methods in my tool set!)

So I don't hate it being a sport. It can stay there. Traditional TKD, or SBD, I'll stick with.

Deaf

[YoungMan]

No offense, but one year per color belt rank is way too long. Two to three months per color belt rank is sufficient. It should not take 10 years to earn 1st Dan. That is too long and most students, even dedicated ones, would not wait for that.

[terryl965]

No offense, but one year per color belt rank is way too long. Two to three months per color belt rank is sufficient. It should not take 10 years to earn 1st Dan. That is too long and most students, even dedicated ones, would not wait for that.

Well that is up to each instructor, If you only teach two classes a week for .45 minutes, then it could take you that long.If you come 6 days a week and train and I mean train not stand there and talk you will probaly test aloy quicker. I know all of my BB learn alot more then three simple kicks and they need to understand each and every poomsae plus one steps and all the SD that we teach all in all well over a million techs. That takes time, I want serious students and devoted ones at that.

[exile]

Well that is up to each instructor, If you only teach two classes a week for .45 minutes, then it could take you that long.If you come 6 days a week and train and I mean train not stand there and talk you will probaly test aloy quicker. I know all of my BB learn alot more then three simple kicks and they need to understand each and every poomsae plus one steps and all the SD that we teach all in all well over a million techs. That takes time, I want serious students and devoted ones at that.

Well put, Terry. There is a huge range of both ability and initiative in MA students, just as with any other kind of student.

In my department at OSU, some people are working on their Ph.D.s, with papers already published in major journals, by their fourth year. Others are still working on their dissertations ten years after starting the program. And of the latter group, there are indeed a number who will finish and do an excellent job... but for whatever reason, they just move much... more... slowly...

One of the nice things about the MAs is that they are, in the good schools anyway, self-paced. But the flip side is, you can only go as fast as you can go. Personal crises or major life changes, shifts of interest, physical or technical problems that slow you down to a crawl... all of those things can push the black belt test way beyond the 'normal' 4–5 year range. Older students may take a good deal longer. And if the instructor is picky and demanding enough to make 6 or 7 years the average instead, it probably means that the belt you earn in that school is going to have a lot more clout in terms of real knowledge that one you earned somewhere else much faster, all other things being equal. Someone who has a smaller school with dedicated students who are focused on the task, not the belt, is probably someone who runs an ace program. It's not going to be for everyone, but then again, there isn't really anything that's for everyone.

[IcemanSK]

There is a niche being filled by these money first, blackbelt factory schools, and that niche is the I-am-too-lazy-to-earn-it-but-I-still-want-it-so-give-it-to-me segment of society. They want to be a "blackbelt" so they can brag and try to cover up the fact that they are really lazy and they couldn't cut it in a real school, so they pay their way through and end up wearing the belt while lacking the skills. Then they get the crap kicked out of them, their contest posted to youtube, and TKD labelled as being ineffective :mad::lol:. Thank goodness for people like Terryl965, there is still hope for good TKD in this world.

I disagree that it's laziness on the part of the student. Belt factories are solely the design of greedy instructors who set the bar too low. Unfortuneately, (no, I can't spell this morning) MA is not like teaching violin. When one plays a violin, if the note is bad, even the untrain ear knows it! The average person doesn't know what MA "should be like" so they don't have an expectation of quality. Plus, many parents figure, "it keeps jr. busy, so there's no harm." It's usually only after the instructor McDojang X ticks off those parents (or the parents talk to parents from other schools) that the parents seek out another school.

I had a young student who received a BB from another school. Respect was the only thing he had down well. His techniques were at about my 7th gup level. I told him that we would get his techniques to the level they needed to be. He didn't understand: he was a BB, after all. It's not his fault, nor his parent's fault. His former instructor set the bar too low.

[SageGhost83]

I disagree that it's laziness on the part of the student. Belt factories are solely the design of greedy instructors who set the bar too low. Unfortuneately, (no, I can't spell this morning) MA is not like teaching violin. When one plays a violin, if the note is bad, even the untrain ear knows it! The average person doesn't know what MA "should be like" so they don't have an expectation of quality. Plus, many parents figure, "it keeps jr. busy, so there's no harm." It's usually only after the instructor McDojang X ticks off those parents (or the parents talk to parents from other schools) that the parents seek out another school.

I had a young student who received a BB from another school. Respect was the only thing he had down well. His techniques were at about my 7th gup level. I told him that we would get his techniques to the level they needed to be. He didn't understand: he was a BB, after all. It's not his fault, nor his parent's fault. His former instructor set the bar too low.

I see what you are saying, and no, don't worry about the spelling one bit, I understand you perfectly :asian:. I think that it falls somewhere in the middle. Yes, blackbelt factories are created by the instructors, however, those blackbelt factories wouldn't be able to thrive if there weren't enough lazy students or parents around to sign up for them to take the easy way out. You raise another good point in that some folks sign up and they really don't know what the school is about or it is their first time so they don't know what they are looking for. However, the promise, no the guarantee, of a black belt within a short time is something that definitely plays into that decision - there is a reason why schools advertise that they are a "black belt club" and such, they know exactly what they are doing...and they know exactly what type of student that they are attracting. Some students are lazy, and some instructors are willing to rush students through the belts just to keep their confidence up and to please the parents who would otherwise wonder why their child isn't a black belt yet despite their child's god awful technique :jaw-dropping::lfao:. So, I adjust my original post - there is a niche being filled, the I-am-too-lazy-to-earn-it-but-I-still-want-it-so-give-it-to-me segment of society coupled with the desperate-to-make-a-buck-and-retain-students instructors.

[YoungMan]

Because traditional Taekwondo doesn't make money. It's too hard, demands too much of you, requires too much dedication, isn't flashy, and requires commitment. How can a teacher who cares more about money than integrity market Taekwondo to children (which is where the profit is) when they have to practice basics constantly, learn proper manners and etiquette, not expect instant gratification, and work hard?
They come in expecting to learn what they see on TV or believe they can be an Olympic champion because the guy running the dojang tells them they could be an Olympic champion. He has to, because otherwise they'll go somewhere else.
It would be very interesting to see where Taekwondo would be today if it never entered the Olympics.

[SageGhost83]

It would be very interesting to see where Taekwondo would be today if it never entered the Olympics.

Yes, I agree. I venture to guess that ITF Chang Hon would be the main style of TKD and there would probably be far less TKD schools, or at least not a TKD school on every street corner. These days TKD schools are like liquor stores - no matter where you are, you can always find one :boing1:.

[matt.m]

No offense, but one year per color belt rank is way too long. Two to three months per color belt rank is sufficient. It should not take 10 years to earn 1st Dan. That is too long and most students, even dedicated ones, would not wait for that.


Everyone wants to "Chase the belt". However the longer you spend between white to yellow the better you are at the fundamentals. Then belt ranking can pick up.

Not only that but the thing is Hapkido is only once a week, I teach Judo 2x a week. Plus in MSK if you go to class 2x a week it takes 5 months just to go from white to yellow.

Sorry, we are more hardcore and just plain not in a rush for a belt color.

[kidswarrior]

Not a TKD guy, but wanted to add my experience anyway in hopes it would be relevant. A couple decades ago, I began a business venture with some friends. They sold me on it as a way to help people, pursue something I was passionate about, and still make some good money.

Long story short, it started off that way, and I was pumped--working 20 hours a day, etc. Then, the economy took a turn, the guy who controlled the purse strings suddenly turned into scrooge and began to make changes to our 'cut' on business generated, and I found myself having to pursue the almighty dollar just so my family could eat. Lost sight of the passion that had brought me there in the first place, and it became all about the money. Now for some of my former friends, it also became an opportunity to get rich by cutting corners--some of them at my expense. Cut to the chase: 10 years later, ended up bankrupt and disillusioned.

What's the moral of the story? I should have always kept the passion front and center. Then if/when it became apparent the pursuit was/could no longer be about that, would have known it was time to move on. In MA, if we have solid, realistic expectations, a passion for reaching/teaching the art the way we believe it should be, and let the money/numbers take care of themselves, it'll go the right way. If it becomes about money or ego for the instructor/owner, then enter the McDojo and kiddies-as-boss programs.

[Manny]

You are right!! I would love to find an old kwan, I mean one kwan where martiality and self defense is the whole thing besides poomses. I was a JiDo Kwan practiciones till my firsth dan blak belt, now I'ma training in another dojan a good one I have to admit but is not close to what I want, SELF DEFENSE.

Manny

[matt.m]

Manny I am quite happy that you found a new suitable school. Just remember every block in poomsea and hyung are without a doubt a breaking technique. Every strike is killing technique.

Good Luck.



You are right!! I would love to find an old kwan, I mean one kwan where martiality and self defense is the whole thing besides poomses. I was a JiDo Kwan practiciones till my firsth dan blak belt, now I'ma training in another dojan a good one I have to admit but is not close to what I want, SELF DEFENSE.

Manny

[Daniel Sullivan]

It would be very interesting to see where Taekwondo would be today if it never entered the Olympics.
Sometimes, I feel that the olympics get a bit too much blame in this. The level of dedication needed to go to the olympics in any sport is much higher than the level of dedication than 99% of the population isn't even close to being able to put out.

I think that instructors who stress the olympics need to stress the level of training and dedication that an olympic athlete maintains. An olympic takwondoin, judoka, boxer or wrestler trains daily, vigorously and works tirelessly on the fine details of their technique as it relates to olympic competition. There's not McDojang-belt-for-sale blackbelt out there that does this.

The olympic debate has raged vigorously and acrimoniously amongst the fencing community for years, but classical fencers don't question the level of technique that the olympic guys have, but rather the veracity of the rules as they relate to fencing and what constitutes a valid touch. The athleticism of an olympic fencer is unquestioned.

Ultimately, McDojo owners use the fact that TKD is an olympic sport as a means to further promote their school. Nothing wrong with that, but by no means should the olympics be to blame for the sloppy training and subpar standards that define some of these schools.

Daniel

[YoungMan]

Using the Olympics as a way to promote Taekwondo and your school is not wrong as long as your organization has connections to the Olympic organizations (WTF, Kukkiwon) and your students could eventually have a chance at trying out for them.
If your organization has no connection to the Olympic organizations and you and/or your students will never be good enough to compete at that level, then using the Olympics to promote Taekwondo and your school is wrong.

[Daniel Sullivan]

Using the Olympics as a way to promote Taekwondo and your school is not wrong as long as your organization has connections to the Olympic organizations (WTF, Kukkiwon) and your students could eventually have a chance at trying out for them.
If your organization has no connection to the Olympic organizations and you and/or your students will never be good enough to compete at that level, then using the Olympics to promote Taekwondo and your school is wrong.
Also, to be eligible for the US olympic team, the athlete must also be a member of USAT if I'm not mistaken.

Daniel

[Topeng]

I'm so glad those of other arts feel the same way. I study Eskrima and cannot stand the sport version.
Now I'll admit I don't have any experience in the sporting side, but from what I see, there is NO respect for the weapon. It looks like these guys just crash into one another and flail to see who can hit who more times.
I must be missing something because I just don't see the point.

[girlbug2]

I've read a lot of (valid) complaints about Mcdojos and such, and how people may be lead to expect to advance to the next level because they're paying for a belt test. Well here's a thought: what if the instructors eliminated testing fees altogether?

Yes I do know of at least one case where this happened. Every few months there were scheduled testing dates that would be posted ahead of time to give students a deadline to work toward. The students would acquire their own belts ahead of time and bring them to the test. When testing was over, if they passed, the instructor would then present their belts formally. If not, they were encouraged to continue training as usual, and later, when the instructor felt they earned it, he would present their belt to them formally at the beginning of the next regularly scheduled class time.

Sometimes this instructor would feel that a student had progressed and deserved to be promoted, but there was no upcoming scheduled test date in the near future, so he would say "go buy your next belt and bring it to the next class" and he would formally present it then.

Certificates were printed and presented later upon request. A lot of people couldn't care less about getting their certificates and so never asked for them.

Nobody was ever charged for testing or certificates. The instructor was never under pressure from parents or adult students to promote a student because they had "paid for it".

Truthfully, I think that it should be this way everywhere. Why isn't it?

[girlbug2]

Oh yes, and I forgot to mention that black belt tests were considerably more formal and planned in advance. Still, no fees:)

[Daniel Sullivan]

I'm so glad those of other arts feel the same way. I study Eskrima and cannot stand the sport version.
Now I'll admit I don't have any experience in the sporting side, but from what I see, there is NO respect for the weapon. It looks like these guys just crash into one another and flail to see who can hit who more times.
I must be missing something because I just don't see the point.
I have gone to great lengths as an instructor to discourage beginning kumdo students from this type of behavour. In a tournament, rapid strikes and flailing strikes are rarely counted. But there's always someone who wants to score like a foilist in kyorugi and then wonders why I don't count any of his strikes.

I must say that I don't mind the sport side of taekwondo. Actually, I quite enjoy it. I believe that it has its place in the art and compliments the traditional aspects nicely (my opinion). Nor do I mind people concentrating on just the sport aspect. But what I do mind are schools that bill themselves as competition only but are full of kids, teens, and young adults with sloppy technique being taught by self proclaimed masters who are too out of shape to compete themselves. While not all competition only schools are like this, I have seen them.

Daniel

[Daniel Sullivan]

I've read a lot of (valid) complaints about Mcdojos and such, and how people may be lead to expect to advance to the next level because they're paying for a belt test. Well here's a thought: what if the instructors eliminated testing fees altogether?

Yes I do know of at least one case where this happened. Every few months there were scheduled testing dates that would be posted ahead of time to give students a deadline to work toward. The students would acquire their own belts ahead of time and bring them to the test. When testing was over, if they passed, the instructor would then present their belts formally. If not, they were encouraged to continue training as usual, and later, when the instructor felt they earned it, he would present their belt to them formally at the beginning of the next regularly scheduled class time.

Sometimes this instructor would feel that a student had progressed and deserved to be promoted, but there was no upcoming scheduled test date in the near future, so he would say "go buy your next belt and bring it to the next class" and he would formally present it then.

Certificates were printed and presented later upon request. A lot of people couldn't care less about getting their certificates and so never asked for them.

Nobody was ever charged for testing or certificates. The instructor was never under pressure from parents or adult students to promote a student because they had "paid for it".

Truthfully, I think that it should be this way everywhere. Why isn't it?
To answer your last question, if the school is affiliated with a larger organization, such as ATA, ITF, or KKW, a portion of the fee goes to the organization. This is reasonable; administrative work and record keeping on the part of the organization provides the student with benefits and doesn't get done by itself.

Now, if the school is nonaffiliated, then the system that you describe works just fine; no need to pay administrative costs when there's no administration to pay.

Personally, I think that the costs of the actual belts and certificates should simply be factored into the fees that the student pays or have the student pay the fee for the belt and cert, rather than making them go chase it down. Given what the belt and a paper certificate costs, monthly fees would only be altered by five dollars or less.

Daniel

[Touch Of Death]

I enjoy TKD, the old school traditional non mcdojo dungeon and mat type of TKD. A lot of sweat and grunting, cadence style poomsea/hyung.

I tell you with few exceptions there are no more schools like that. No for the most part I see these buy your black belt as long as your check doesn't bounce in a year crap. I hate it.

I know Judo is Japanese, but it is no different. It all depends on if you learned from a hard core Korean who learned from the Yudo academy in Korea.

Just my .02.The race or country of origin has nothing to do with quality. Its about holding integrity without losing your business.
sean