If You Could Add To Your Martial Art

[James Kovacich]

If you were asked for your input to enhance a fighting system. What advice would you have? It does not have to be a new system. It could be adding to a present system.

What would you stress? Of course there is much talk of this going around. And it will exist no matter what anybody says or thinks.

Answers like the arts are fine the way the are is not what I'm looking for. Thats not what this is about. I just want to hear what everyone thinks the nuts and bolts of a system would be and why? If you could add to your system. What would you add and why?

What weapons would you include and why or why not? What type of techniques would you prefer and why? How would you go about qualifying the techniques that you choose? Would you draw from several arts? Which ones? Are there any arts that you would definately not draw from and why?

[Zepp]

Our style of TKD really needs to add falling to the curriculum. I'm told some instructors practice it, but I really think it should be part of the standard.

Let's face it- you're a lot more likely to fall in your lifetime than you are to be attacked.

That's the only major weakness I see in it.

[James Kovacich]

I agree with the need for falling practice. Judo and Jujitsu cover falling. In Karate we did what we called rolled outs. You roll shoulder to shoulder turn and roll (opposite side) shoulder to shoulder. We did this a lot but we didn't work on falling unless you were in Judo class.

Its easy to overlook falling but if you could take it just one step further and fall into a good position. Then what have you? You turned a negative into a positive.

[MartialArtist]

?

I remember in TKD, I always did falling. We also practiced on grass, then moved to wood, concrete, etc. Tumbling was one of the first things people teach.

[James Kovacich]

Along with falling, the second half is getting back to your feet.

[MartialArtist]

More cheap and dirty tricks.

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by MartialArtist
More cheap and dirty tricks.

????

You want to add more cheap and dirty tricks?

[Jester]

Doing kick boxing I often think that the art is too much directed at the sport, lacking real world techniques and training. E.g training double roundhouses to the head is fine but I'm not gunna do that to Joe Bloggs meat head in the pub.

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by Jester
Doing kick boxing I often think that the art is too much directed at the sport, lacking real world techniques and training. E.g training double roundhouses to the head is fine but I'm not gunna do that to Joe Bloggs meat head in the pub.

Kickboxing is a sport as is Judo and Boxing. Being sports they will have limitations in order to make them safe and to be able to judge or score them.

There is nothing wrong with wanting to add to your kickboxing, you just won’t be able to use most of your additions in your sport competition.

[Aegis]

Originally posted by akja
Kickboxing is a sport as is Judo and Boxing. Being sports they will have limitations in order to make them safe and to be able to judge or score them.

Judo is a martial art.

Competetive Judo is a sport.

They are not necessarily the same thing.

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by Aegis
Judo is a martial art.

Competetive Judo is a sport.

They are not necessarily the same thing.

Judo is a martial art and a sport. It evolved into a sport and all along it was meant to be trained in a fashion that was not as dangerous as its predeceser Jujutsu.

The point still remains the same because todays Judo is not that "original form" of Judo that I'm sure that you were referring to.

A side note: I think BJJ evolved from that "original form" of Judo.

[karatekid1975]

I'm in a Judo club that does both. They give you the choice to be competetive or not. I chose not to. The day I started, they (sensai and some of the students) were on their way to a tourny. 6 of us stayed "home."

Anyways, what my TKD school lacks, I'm getting from Judo (falls, take-downs, thows, ground work, ect). I think the two work well together. What one doesn't have, the other does. I'm happy with the combo.

[Aegis]

Originally posted by akja
Judo is a martial art and a sport. It evolved into a sport and all along it was meant to be trained in a fashion that was not as dangerous as its predeceser Jujutsu.

The point still remains the same because todays Judo is not that "original form" of Judo that I'm sure that you were referring to.

A side note: I think BJJ evolved from that "original form" of Judo.

The "original form" still exists. There are still a few places which keep the (to my mind) best form of Judo alive and kicking (quite literally ;) )

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by Aegis
The "original form" still exists. There are still a few places which keep the (to my mind) best form of Judo alive and kicking (quite literally ;) )

My brother-in-law teaches everything including Jujutsu very traditional. But I was under the impression that the original form evolved into todays Judo. I think that there may have been 2 schools of Judo, one being the original but I did not know that the original still existed.

Wasn't the original form still classified one the Jujutsu Ryu with the name of Judo?

Do you have any information on it?

[Aegis]

No info myself, however my instructor did mention that a few of his collegues within the BJA were actually working to re-integrate the traditional syllabus into the standard training methods.

I think there are a few people on this board tha still train in a much more traditional style of judo... You'll need to ask them for their opinion.

As to whether it is basically jujutsu, yes, it likely is. The idea was to cut down the number of techniques from jujutsu to make a few very well honed techniques that could be used against opponents of all sizes and shapes.

Aside from that, I'm more or less tapped.


As to how I trained in Judo:

We trained in a very relaxed atmosphere, with no competition or back-biting, mostly just having a laugh. We'd often get out the crash masts and do ridiculously overpowered techniques, as well as doing th same techniques on the standard mat once our breakfalling was up to standard. In general we had a good laugh.

I supplemented that with extra training in competetive Judo, which I enjoyed much less. The goal there was not to enjoy yourself or to improve yourself, but instead to simply learn new ways of slamming your opponent into the ground. It was like learning a 2-d art after having done a 3-d art (bad analogy, but sort of gets the point across)

After I left school I really got into Jujutsu, and have found somewhere where I can learn effective self-defence and still have a good time doing it. In addition, it teaches us a lot about how our bodies move, how we react to different circumstances and how to better control ourselves in general.

I'm still not very good at jujutsu, but I'm much more capable at self defence now than before I started.

ok, tired now. Don't even know how much sense that made, I'll look again tomorrow! :)

[James Kovacich]

Anyway, back to the topic.

I think it is important to add some type of grappling to the standup arts as well as add some type of standup to the grappling arts.

BJJ is a good example. When BJJ hit the USA mainstream there was no where near as much crosstraining that there is today or for that matter nearly as many highly skilled "all around" fighters..

So now we have the learned the ground game and brought our grappling skills up tenfold. But the reverse is also true. Now that the rest of the world has caught up on the ground the BJJ players have had to spend more time on their feet insuring their competitiveness.

[sweeper]

actualy what I would add wouldn't so much be material but training methods, I would have people do some training in a MMA fasion, Not just as a training tool for personal development but so you can practice against someone of that style. Actualy idealy I would link the class with an MMA instructor so the students could cross train if they wanted to and have a mixed fight night.

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by sweeper
actualy what I would add wouldn't so much be material but training methods, I would have people do some training in a MMA fasion, Not just as a training tool for personal development but so you can practice against someone of that style. Actualy idealy I would link the class with an MMA instructor so the students could cross train if they wanted to and have a mixed fight night.

That is really close to what I do. If you "get the message" in my posts that is what I refer to quite a bit. On the ground I start someone new with just the positions and the transitions from the positions. And a little bit at a time I add a submission here and there that can be applied from a "controlling position." Thats a basic ground stragegy that I feel brings them to the ground slow enough that they are able to learn and when sparring they will not get into too much trouble. It has technique but it really is a method or a theory or like a fight strategy. This gets them to the groundwork slowly but surely and builds a basic ground foundation.

And it works. A lot of people want to learn their hands and say I don't want to grapple. "I always say" to them they will learn to grapple. In their heads they probably think they won't. But we always get on the ground and we start with the basics. They think "body slamming," but I show them things like a side mount and show them something like a forearm in the face while getting ready to mount. Its subtle exposure but they get into it.

My standup is done in a similar fashion except I go more deep because that is where my heart is. Everything leads to something. Offense is defense and defense is offense.

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by karatekid1975
I'm in a Judo club that does both. They give you the choice to be competetive or not. I chose not to. The day I started, they (sensai and some of the students) were on their way to a tourny. 6 of us stayed "home."

Anyways, what my TKD school lacks, I'm getting from Judo (falls, take-downs, thows, ground work, ect). I think the two work well together. What one doesn't have, the other does. I'm happy with the combo.

Karate and Judo are in a sense almost related. Gichen Funokoshi and Jigoro Kano were friends. At least they new each other well enough to have dicussions on the martial arts.

[sweeper]

but they have teken diffrent paths of evolution.

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by sweeper
but they have teken diffrent paths of evolution.

Yes definately differant paths, but the paths that was right for their individual ultimate reality of combat.

[MountainSage]

I was reading in a book about Chinese fast wrestling and the author stated(I'm paraphrasing), for an empty hand martial art to be complete it must include punching, kicking, joint locks, and grappling. There was no reference to which arts fit this description, just that these elements were necessary. My primary art is TKD and I add Chinese fast wrestling, hapkido, and tumbling to improve my art.

Mountain Sage

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by MountainSage
I was reading in a book about Chinese fast wrestling and the author stated(I'm paraphrasing), for an empty hand martial art to be complete it must include punching, kicking, joint locks, and grappling. There was no reference to which arts fit this description, just that these elements were necessary. My primary art is TKD and I add Chinese fast wrestling, hapkido, and tumbling to improve my art.

Mountain Sage

So how did you come to the conclusion that those arts were the right ones for you?

And how do you go about effectively learning them?

[James Kovacich]

I was exposed to Judo before I was ready for the groundwork. And after the UFC hit I accepted the fact that the ground was an important range to learn.

I happen to be in a martial art store and I received a flyer for a leglock seminar. From that seminar it led to training BJJ from the same instructor.

[MountainSage]

Akja,
I had been a scholastic and freestyle wrestler in my Jr. High and High School days so fast wrestling seemed like a great idea. I believe that any wrestler would love the idea of being able to kick and punch while wrestling. I work on tumbling because I am a large man and gravity does work, so I needed to practice falling and rolling in a controlled manner. Plus to see a large person with grace really shocks people. I tend to gravitate to the chinese art when possible because I like the way the styles train.

Mountain Sage

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by MountainSage
Akja,
I had been a scholastic and freestyle wrestler in my Jr. High and High School days so fast wrestling seemed like a great idea. I believe that any wrestler would love the idea of being able to kick and punch while wrestling. I work on tumbling because I am a large man and gravity does work, so I needed to practice falling and rolling in a controlled manner. Plus to see a large person with grace really shocks people. I tend to gravitate to the chinese art when possible because I like the way the styles train.

Mountain Sage

But where are you getting the material from. Are you just using the Chinese Fast Wrestling name? Thats what I mean. I call my art Kempo Jujitsu but its not the Kempo that you will find in a strip mall. I just want to know where you draw from?

I recognize that most of America has exposure in wrestling and it is a great benefit to mix it with the martial arts.

[MountainSage]

Akja,
I saw San shou fighting on ESPN one night and liked the concept. Later I found a book by Matt Furey that talked about Shuai chiao (Chinese wrestling) the art side and looked it up on the net. Found some websites and got interested, bought a couple of videos and a book about San Shou(fast fighting) the sport side. The style just seem to gel in my mind and be designed for my body type. To directly answer your question, there is an art called Shuai Chiao and the sport of San Shou, Chinese Fast Wrestling. Hope that answers the question.

Mountain Sage

[James Kovacich]

In this digital age, all the info. that we want is just one click away. Its nothing like the old days when we had to wait for the next class. I started as a kid going to the library. Bruce Tegner had written several books on several arts. Today I still have 2 of his books. I aso have a DVD on order from my Sensei. Isn't the digital age great?

[MountainSage]

If the the information gain is used properly and with caution, yes computer, dvd, tape are great. If you without control it's no good.

Mountain Sage

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by MountainSage
If the the information gain is used properly and with caution, yes computer, dvd, tape are great. If you without control it's no good.

Mountain Sage

"Control" is under "your" control.

If that makes sense to you.