A little Confused...

[Jas0n]

I just got done watching the Martial arts programs on the Discovery Channel...I saw at least 2 guys supposed Master of their art...they were VERY overweight....Please if you out of shape or overweight this is not a knock on you. I am 35lbs overweight, one of my motivations for starting MA training.
I also have seen a few local schools with the head instructors who are welll....FAT...I thought a big part of MA was physical and mental wellness...Iexpected to see all a bunch of really healty in shape musculer guys. Was I making the wrong assumption?

[James Kovacich]

Having the mental and phsical training of martial arts does not guarantee weight loss. When I was astudent of my brother-in-law, I made a comment about this big fat guy that was my senior. he could barely pick up his leg. Boy did I get a lecture.

We are all differant and some of us just can't lose weight as easily as others. Not counting all the other things that is harder for them carrying around all that weight.

[Jas0n]

Originally posted by akja
Having the mental and phsical training of martial arts does not guarantee weight loss. When I was astudent of my brother-in-law, I made a comment about this big fat guy that was my senior. he could barely pick up his leg. Boy did I get a lecture.

We are all differant and some of us just can't lose weight as easily as others. Not counting all the other things that is harder for them carrying around all that weight. I understand some have issues out of there control...
How would one become a good martial artist if he cant pick up his leg?

I thought it was a core thing in MA. Now I understand seeing thos as students not in shape. as I am myself. Yet as a "master" or teacher? i dont get it?

[pesilat]

Originally posted by Jas0n
I understand some have issues out of there control...
How would one become a good martial artist if he cant pick up his leg?

I thought it was a core thing in MA. Now I understand seeing thos as students not in shape. as I am myself. Yet as a "master" or teacher? i dont get it?

Depends on the art.

The arts that I study almost never kick above the waist, and rarely even above the knee.

Also, someone who trains a lot and is heavy will surprise you with how quick they can be. I'm now losing weight, but it's because I've changed my diet. I was about 100 pounds overweight (now I'm down to 30 pounds overweight) and was still able to kick at my head height and higher, but rarely did. My resting heart rate was 74 (not great, but considered average -- and at 100 pounds overweight, it's extraordinary). I was cardiologically fit and a very capable martial artist. But it was because I trained all the time.

A guy I know (I've heard he's lost a lot of weight, but I haven't seen him in a while) was huge. When I met him, he was about 6'3" and, I'd guess, at least 380 lbs. He literally waddled. Then he was asked to teach some grappling. He got in front of one of my friends and asked if my friend was ready. My friend said that he was. I didn't see the big guy move. The next thing I knew, he was on the ground behind my friend, and my friend was slamming to the ground while the big guy put an excruciatingly painful leg lock on my friend. Turned out the big guy had started in competition grappling at age 4 and done it ever since.

These are exceptions, of course. Most people who are overweight are also out of shape and can't move very well. But always remember that there are exceptions.

Mike

[Arthur]

The point of a martial art is to learn an effective form of applied science to the art of combat. Fitness has nothing to do with the art. If you need to be fit to apply your art... well then success you have in combat really isn't about the science of the art is it. Might as well just join a gym and try to get faster and stronger than everyone else.

Frankly I'm FAT, pretty dosh garn fat, and my martial skill has increased dramatically because of it. I've had to refine my skill rather than rely on my attributes, and I know I'm better for it (martially).

In real life the need for defense can come at the most inopportune times. When your drunk, tired, injured, driving etc. A truly viable martial art should be cabable of functioning in all these arenas... arenas where the issue of fitness tends to be moot, burt the issue of skill isn't.

Of course being fit is nice too... though as mentioned above fit and fat don't necesarrily have a correlation.


Arthur

[pesilat]

Also, there's this to consider:

Every martial art that I've ever been exposed to has had efficiency and economy of motion as a core tenet.

The more efficient and economical your motions are, the less fitness training you'll get from performing them.

Of course, anything can be done aerobically, but a good workout isn't necessarily an indicator of good martial arts training.

At higher levels, in fact, it may be an indicator that you were doing something wrong and working too hard :)

Mike

[chufeng]

Now, I'm no master...but I do hold my own against a younger, fitter crowd...

I'm overweight by 30 pounds...arthritic...and balding...
but, I am a senior in our system...

I used to run 7 or 10 miles three times a week and 3 miles on my off days (Army training)...now my knees are falling apart...
I wasn't overweight until I could no longer run...I kept my weight under control by running...but I can't run, anymore...

So HOW do I execute techniques? Economically...I don't waste energy or movement...

Have you ever watched a racquetball tournament?
There are some FAT b*****ds at those tournaments...they rule the court...Why? Because they don't waste energy chasing after the ball...they control the action from the center of the court...they have the other guy running after the ball...

It's sort of like that when I square off...
OK, I know this guy will attack...I know that he has only a certain number of entries based on my stance, and posture...so I'll let him move first...then I won't be there when he gets there...I only need to move an inch to pull this off...minimal movement...minimal energy expended...

Also, a well rounded abdomen does not necessarily equal a fat person...the taoist breathing exercises eventually cause a well rounded abdomen...and it can be as solid as a rock, just round.

:asian:
chufeng

[tarabos]

well jas0n...let me tell you. you may not realize it yet since you just started EPAK, but it's one of the systems where you'll see a lot of the senior masters of the art are a little on the stocky side.

not trying to make fun or anything here, it's just the way it is. seeing them do there thing will take any doubt out of your mind that they are the real deal, and if you still don't believe it after you see it, you will after you feel it.

i believe it's referred to as "a little extra back-up mass."

[chufeng]

My teacher used to say, "You can't drive a spike with a tack-hammer."

:D
chufeng

[sweeper]

provided both people understand the mechanics of striking,I would rather take a punch from a 170 pound guy than from the same guy pluss 70 more pounds of fat.. more mass means you hit harder.. there are advantages and disadvantages of everything. but also consider the posability of injury, say someone got hurt somehow, say they can't kick because they messed up an ancle and can't balance on it.. doens't mean they don't know what they knew before.. they can still teach it all.. it's the same way with someone overweight even in an art that requires being in shape to practice (like a ring sport like western boxing or thai boxing where you are matched based on weight). So on most other arts that don't require being in shape I relay don't think being over weight affects your teaching ability.

[karatekid1975]

I agree that "don't judge book by it's cover" in Martial Arts. I'm on the heavy side. I don't look like it to some people cause I wear baggy clothes. But I am 30 pounds over weight. Some noticed, and say I can't kick above my knee ..... that's until I "thump" them in the head during sparring :D

There's even people heavier than me that can kick some major @$$ and I wouldn't even know it till I spar them. I got my @$$ kicked many times in TSD by a BB that was like 50 pounds over weight .... Man, was she fast! I never saw her move. I just "felt" her techniques ..... THUMP!!!!! Ouch.

Same thing goes for little people. I didn't think little people could kick my @$$ ..... boy was I wrong! I think I'm more worried about the little guy! LOL

Weight has nothing to do with it. It's training, hard work, and dedication has A LOT to do with how well one can fight. ;)

[Matt Stone]

I weigh 227 pounds and am 5' 8" tall. Uncle Sam and Army standards of fitness say that for my height and my age (34) I shouldn't weigh more than 179... In order to accomodate those folks who weigh more than others in the Army, we have body fat testing accomplished by incredibly efficient measuring tape tests... For men, they tape your neck and waist (at belly button level), apply some magic math, and voila - body fat percentage (yeah, right :rolleyes: ). According to Uncle Sam, I am 22% fat.

I am still trying to figure out where I am hiding nearly 50 pounds of fat. Nobody I know, friends, family and coworkers alike, think I look fat. Big, yes, intimidating, sometimes, but fat? Hardly.

When I "fight," I favor going straight to my opponent's real estate and evicting him from it. I will allow several strikes to land, if for no other reason than to gain distance and inspire the other guy to give up without too much trouble (I can take a few really good shots, but not too many...). Once I am in there, I can make use of my added bulk...

Chufeng is usually the one I get matched up against... For an old fart (I'm gonna pay for that) he is pretty quick, but then it is timing, not speed, that makes that happen...

As for the added back up mass, I will say that my light taps are usually heavier and harder than some other, skinnier folks, hard shots.

It's good to be BIG. My nickname on our Yiliquan Yahoo! site is Yili Fatboy... And I don't mind a bit!

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1
I weigh 227 pounds and am 5' 8" tall. Uncle Sam and Army standards of fitness say that for my height and my age (34) I shouldn't weigh more than 179... In order to accomodate those folks who weigh more than others in the Army, we have body fat testing accomplished by incredibly efficient measuring tape tests... For men, they tape your neck and waist (at belly button level), apply some magic math, and voila - body fat percentage (yeah, right :rolleyes: ). According to Uncle Sam, I am 22% fat.

I am still trying to figure out where I am hiding nearly 50 pounds of fat. Nobody I know, friends, family and coworkers alike, think I look fat. Big, yes, intimidating, sometimes, but fat? Hardly.

When I "fight," I favor going straight to my opponent's real estate and evicting him from it. I will allow several strikes to land, if for no other reason than to gain distance and inspire the other guy to give up without too much trouble (I can take a few really good shots, but not too many...). Once I am in there, I can make use of my added bulk...

Chufeng is usually the one I get matched up against... For an old fart (I'm gonna pay for that) he is pretty quick, but then it is timing, not speed, that makes that happen...

As for the added back up mass, I will say that my light taps are usually heavier and harder than some other, skinnier folks, hard shots.

It's good to be BIG. My nickname on our Yiliquan Yahoo! site is Yili Fatboy... And I don't mind a bit!

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

I think uncle sam is slightly off. I know you've spent some time in the military. But you are 1 inch taller than me and I way 160.

I am lean but with a 19 puund increase, I definately would not be fat. Buy at your weight, I understand where your you're coming from. My buddy is the same height as me and through working out he gained up to 205 and he was "hog stautus."

My point is the 20 pounds is not much but 67 pounds is a lot and that "tap," I would agree with!

[Chronuss]

Originally posted by Jas0n
Was I making the wrong assumption?

I'd say so. personally, I'm a little over weight and could stand to lose twenty pounds. my current instructor now (who is on this board as well) is six inches shorter than I am and is overweight, but for him, it's in his favor because it's very misleading. anyone who would see him would probably say "No f******* way." then you spar him, or he demonstrates a technique on you, and your eyes are open and your ass on the ground. the man can get his foot over my head by at least two inches.

Again, Mr. C., who is also on the board, is a big fella, and he's at least five inches taller than I am. but damn, the man can move. I had the priviledge of being his..."assistant" at the seminar we had, and I could not see his hands move, but I sure as hell felt the impacts.

[pesilat]

Originally posted by akja
I think uncle sam is slightly off. I know you've spent some time in the military. But you are 1 inch taller than me and I way 160.

I am lean but with a 19 puund increase, I definately would not be fat. Buy at your weight, I understand where your you're coming from. My buddy is the same height as me and through working out he gained up to 205 and he was "hog stautus."

My point is the 20 pounds is not much but 67 pounds is a lot and that "tap," I would agree with!

Well, for 5'8" the ideal weight, according to BMI charts, is around 155 lbs. This, of course, doesn't factor in bone density or muscle mass.

Just like the tape measure test that was mentioned. In fact, I've read that the only way to get an accurate body fat ratio is dissection :)

I think the Army's standards are based on BMI and you have to be within a certain range of your "ideal."

I'm also 5'8" and think that anything under about 180 would be unhealthy for me because I've got large and very dense bones and good muscle mass. To give an idea of my bone structure, I'm 5'8" and wear size 12 ring on my ring finger, size 11 on my pinky, and I wear size 13 shoes (not sure how all this translates for you folks across the pond).

Consequently, when I say that I'm currently 30 pounds overweight, I'm going from the 180 that I personally think would be my "ideal" weight. According to the BMI, I'm 55 pounds overweight and, according to the same measuring tape mentioned above, I'm 27% fat. And yet, my slowly emerging abs would indicate that that's not the case.

The BMI charts (and other things like it) don't take muscle mass or bone density into consideration. ~155 is the ideal weight for a man who's 5'8" with average bone density and muscle mass. If you've got small bones or large bones, or are more or less muscular than "average" then that "ideal" weight has to be modified. Everyone is aware of this, but they haven't found a more accurate way to gauge it yet (that I'm aware of, anyway).

Mike

[Kirk]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1
I weigh 227 pounds and am 5' 8" tall. Uncle Sam and Army standards of fitness say that for my height and my age (34) I shouldn't weigh more than 179... In order to accomodate those folks who weigh more than others in the Army, we have body fat testing accomplished by incredibly efficient measuring tape tests... For men, they tape your neck and waist (at belly button level), apply some magic math, and voila - body fat percentage (yeah, right :rolleyes: ). According to Uncle Sam, I am 22% fat.

I am still trying to figure out where I am hiding nearly 50 pounds of fat. Nobody I know, friends, family and coworkers alike, think I look fat. Big, yes, intimidating, sometimes, but fat? Hardly.


Funny .. back in '86 when I was at MEPS, they weighed me, then
put me in this big box, with a hole for my neck with just my head
sticking out of the box. They then filled the box with water, which
took what seemed like forever, and weighed all of that. Somehow
they got a fat percentage out of that.

[Matt Stone]

I have a 44 inch chest, a 36 inch waist and an 18 inch neck.

I am not sure what size my legs are, though I have trouble finding jeans that fit both my waist and thighs...

I am happy where I am. Uncle Sam is satisfied with his outdated system that I am within his standards of body fat percentage (though I think his standards are imaginary and based on garbage math and unrealistic expectations).

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by pesilat
Well, for 5'8" the ideal weight, according to BMI charts, is around 155 lbs. This, of course, doesn't factor in bone density or muscle mass.

Just like the tape measure test that was mentioned. In fact, I've read that the only way to get an accurate body fat ratio is dissection :)

I think the Army's standards are based on BMI and you have to be within a certain range of your "ideal."

I'm also 5'8" and think that anything under about 180 would be unhealthy for me because I've got large and very dense bones and good muscle mass. To give an idea of my bone structure, I'm 5'8" and wear size 12 ring on my ring finger, size 11 on my pinky, and I wear size 13 shoes (not sure how all this translates for you folks across the pond).

Consequently, when I say that I'm currently 30 pounds overweight, I'm going from the 180 that I personally think would be my "ideal" weight. According to the BMI, I'm 55 pounds overweight and, according to the same measuring tape mentioned above, I'm 27% fat. And yet, my slowly emerging abs would indicate that that's not the case.

The BMI charts (and other things like it) don't take muscle mass or bone density into consideration. ~155 is the ideal weight for a man who's 5'8" with average bone density and muscle mass. If you've got small bones or large bones, or are more or less muscular than "average" then that "ideal" weight has to be modified. Everyone is aware of this, but they haven't found a more accurate way to gauge it yet (that I'm aware of, anyway).

Mike

I would be happy if I could gain to 180. I've lifted for a very long time and what I've learned is I could do things now from lifting less that I couldn't do not that long ago.

If I did gain it, I would need a good strecthing program to keep from being so tight.

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1
I have a 44 inch chest, a 36 inch waist and an 18 inch neck.

I am not sure what size my legs are, though I have trouble finding jeans that fit both my waist and thighs...

I am happy where I am. Uncle Sam is satisfied with his outdated system that I am within his standards of body fat percentage (though I think his standards are imaginary and based on garbage math and unrealistic expectations).

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

I would also think that uncle sam wants their boys to be healthy and have made decisions scientifically.

[Brother John]

Mastery of an art has nothing to do with weight to height ratio or body fat percentages.
Would it be better if we were all physical specimins? Maybe....
But one way or the other, the martial arts (removing all the high-falootin sophistry) is about being prepared to survive a physical confrontation... no matter what condition or state you are in when you do it.
Don't underestimate a "BIG" fella, or gall for that matter.
They may move like a freight train, but don't be on the tracks when the train comes through.
Your Brother
John

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by akja
I would also think that uncle sam wants their boys to be healthy and have made decisions scientifically.

Or not.

The body fat percentage determination method currently in use is, by the Army's own admission, outdated and obsolete. They continue to use it because "they always have," and because changing the method currently in use would amount to an admission that it is inaccurate. This would result in untold thousands of appeals for separations due to overweight/over body fat, costing the Army far more than it cares to spend.

Bottom line, the system is based on very old ideas of health, but is extremely low in cost (a tape measure and a pencil), so they will keep things as they are.

Don't give Uncle Sam quite so much credit for always having the most honorable intentions in what he does or doesn't do. He makes decisions for a lot of reasons, and very often cost is a major consideration.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

[pesilat]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1
Don't give Uncle Sam quite so much credit for always having the most honorable intentions in what he does or doesn't do. He makes decisions for a lot of reasons, and very often cost is a major consideration.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

*** Note: the following is partially tongue-in-cheek ***
LOL. Yup. Something to remember, a government (any government), really, is structurally a very large business. The army, then, is like a division of that business. Decisions are, generally, made according to how they affect the "bottom line." The bottom line isn't just money, though money certainly plays a factor. Basically, whether you're talking in monetary terms or some other type of currency, the bottom line boils down to "getting the most for the least."

This concept can be applied to expenses, but can also be applied to clout, prestige, etc.

Also, the military is a form of bureaucracy and, as such, even if they decided to change the method of testing, it would take another decade for it to be implemented.

***

Seriously, though, I have nothing but respect for the military as a whole and the men and women who serve. I think the military serves an important function. But change tends to happen, at least for most things, very slowly and reluctantly in the military.

Mike

[Zepp]

Allow me to add my own experiences from within my organization to this disscussion:

For reference, I'm 5'7", 135 lbs., and in my class I am probably the fastest 1st dan (not neccessarily the most skilled, but fastest).

About 7 months ago or so I went to a gathering of black and senior brown belts of our style and had an opportunity to see many of the instructors and the "masters" (5th and 6th dans honored for their teaching ability) in action. A few of them are chiseled like rocks, but most everyone at 4th dan and above seem to have developed large sympathy bellies when their wives were pregnant and never lost them.

But they move like f___ing greased lightening! Even the slowest ones would have to hold themselves back so much if they sparred me that they would be patronizing me. (Thank goodness I didn't have to spar anyone higher than 3rd dan.)

My own instructor is a 4th dan, about my height, seems to be about 40 lbs. overweight, and can do the splits.

Brings to mind the old saying "it's not the size that counts, it's how you use it."

[pesilat]

Yup. I'm not a kicker, but I can kick. I often catch people off guard, and especially when I was 50 pounds heavier.

I was in a class once and working with a guy who was about 6'5" (I'm 5'8" and was about 260 lbs. at this point). One of the techniques the instructor taught involved a kick to the head. My partner punched, I parried, kicked under his arm, and my foot flipped up in front of his face. His eyes got really big and he said, "Man! Where did that come from!?" Now, it wasn't a pretty kick, but it got up there and had some force to it.

And a guy I trained with in TX is very overweight. He's shaped like a Weeble (showing my age, I know). He can't kick high anymore. But he's one of the best kickers I've ever seen. He'll land kicks to the legs and ribs that are so quick they're setting back down before you realize they've moved, and they're incredibly powerful, too.

Mike

[karatekid1975]

There are 4 instructors in our little group of schools (3), plus a handful of assistants. Three are over weight. One of my instructors is over weight, but he is fast! I watched him do a form (pyong won, I think) last night that just blew me away! He is very sharp on technique.

Another one of the instructors from the other school, is over weight, in his 50's, and grey. But don't underestimate this guy either. He can do splits, fight like mad, and is very sharp!

The master intructor is little, but he is just as fast.

[Jas0n]

Just last night we did some kicking exercises...when practicing the correct techniqes it can be very difficult with a little bit of a gut....I guess i am just not used to working with my fat yet...:D

[thepanjr]

i dont get it

[TigerWoman]

i dont get it

Another one...try to think out your answers. Do they contribute? TW

[Simon Curran]

The national head of our organisation is somewhat overweight, but nonetheless a very skilled martial artist, and not someone I would like to be on the wrong side of, despite the fact that I am 6 ft 2 , 220 lbs and athletically built.

[47MartialMan]

But does being overweight demonstrate a lack of skill of knowledge?

[dubljay]

See this thread


http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=20453&highlight=martial+arts+physical+fitness

[still learning]

Hello, Little confuse. I hope this can help you? As you get older, the body slows down, we lose 30% and/or more muscles as we age especially after 40,more towards 50 plus and up. This is the natural part of ageing. Many masters do not train like before and usually eat the same or more foods. As teachers you spend more time teaching than phyical training. When you become a teacher (older one) you will understand this more.

Also genetics plays a part too. It nice to always be slimmer than most.

Excerise and eating the right foods helps in staying in shape. Easier said than to do it!!!!

Masters means "years of training" the mind, body, and the spirit. (sometimes the body grows too? )

There are expectations for our Professor, Master, Sensi and so on. Look at Black belts (do we expect everyone who has a black belt to look like Bruce Lee?)

Human beings comes in all kinds of body shapes and sizes and we must except what we have and what it will turn into as we age? Do you agree? ......Aloha

PS Look at the actor " Sumo Hung" Jackie chans partner. "boy can he move!

[TonyM.]

If your talking about the ridiculous overweight clowns that kick each other in the 'taint, they are exactly that.

[47MartialMan]

Mastery of an art has nothing to do with weight to height ratio or body fat percentages.
Would it be better if we were all physical specimins? Maybe....
But one way or the other, the martial arts (removing all the high-falootin sophistry) is about being prepared to survive a physical confrontation... no matter what condition or state you are in when you do it.
Don't underestimate a "BIG" fella, or gall for that matter.
They may move like a freight train, but don't be on the tracks when the train comes through.
Your Brother
John
Yeah, have you ever tried to race a football player? Also, those guys can move fast