Kajukenbo or Kosho Ryu [Archive]

e_t

05-19-2008, 02:47 AM

Arnold M. Golub
Kosho Shorei Ryu Kempo

Back to:James M. Mitose (http://www.kenponet.com/flame/tree/m/james_mitose.html)
Thomas Barro Mitose (http://www.kenponet.com/flame/tree/m/thomas_mitose.html)
Bernard Cortez
Andrew Moldero
George Nieve
Les Young
Larry Siebert
David Elauria
Raul Gutierrez (http://www.kenponet.com/flame/tree/g/raul_gutierrez.html)
Ely Gwin
Bill Tolentino (http://www.kenponet.com/flame/tree/t/bill_tolentino.html)
Larry Garcia
Tony Bowles
Shirley Mitose
Terry Gwin
Cote Lopez
Barry Lim
Nick Boccio
Keith Samuels
Andrew Conception
Lex Duey
Eric Ramin
Elizabeth Trezza
Jason Cortez
John Henderson
Daniel Macaaly
Jon Duey
Rian Macaaly
Pedro Porem (http://www.kenponet.com/flame/tree/p/pedro_porem.html)
Fernando Silva (http://www.kenponet.com/flame/tree/s/fernando_silva.html)
Manuel Maya (http://www.kenponet.com/flame/tree/m/manuel_maya.html)
Miguel Rivas Rodriguez (http://www.kenponet.com/flame/tree/r/miguel_rodriguez.html)

this is what I found under the James Mitose Family Tree...
I think he was a student under Golub Sensei.

Hope this helped

Kosho

I don't have the answer to the original posting but I can respond to Kosho's post to help clarify. All the people listed above received their black belt from Soke Thomas Mitose. Definitely not Arnold Golub. If you check out the family tree on Mitose's website, all the names under Thomas Mitose received their blackbelt under him. For the names that have a little subdivision of names in smaller font under them, that means those were their students that received black belts under them. Don't know if anyone is really interested or not but thought I'd throw this out there.

http://www.kosho-ryu.com/Family-Tree/family_tree.html

D.Hardman

05-20-2008, 07:18 PM

John Bishop

05-20-2008, 07:47 PM

Email Mitose Kosho Ryu someone replyed stating he never received a black belt under Tom Barro/Mitose. They said that they are a brown belt under Tom Barro when he was in Daly City and said Tony Bowles only got his blue belt and then left the school. Debbie the oldest daughter was the one that taught him. SO I'm not sure if he is even a black belt that would mean all his student aren't black belts. I guess I won't be checking out anyone of those schools that related to him.

I could care less about Tony's connection to Kosho, but I find this statement hard to believe. Every time I've seen Tom Mitose in the last 15 years or so, he's been accompanied by Tony. In fact here's a picture from last saturdays San Diego Grand Nationals tournament. There may be some questions about the length and intensity of Tony's Kosho training, but his position within Tom's Kosho organization is not in question.

http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc257/emailbishop/bowles-1.jpg?t=1211323889

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

05-20-2008, 09:40 PM

Ayup. And he's been wearing that pendant for a while, now, too. I'm pretty sure they wouldn't be as tight if there was any question of position or placement.

D.

koshojoe

05-23-2008, 03:17 PM

..."but I find this statement hard to believe. Every time I've seen Tom Mitose in the last 15 years or so, he's been accompanied by Tony. In fact here's a picture from last saturdays San Diego Grand Nationals tournament. There may be some questions about the length and intensity of Tony's Kosho training, but his position within Tom's Kosho organization is not in question."

This is absolutely true. I am a former student of Grandmaster Bowles, and can attest to his proficiency as a teacher. Watch out for his hands!!!
In Kosho-Ryu, the last time I checked (Dec 26, 2005), he was promoted to Shichidan 7th Degree.

"Bowles Martial Art Academy" was in operation here in San Diego since 1991, as stated on the website
http://www.bowleskajukenbo.com/index.htm.

But he actually has been teaching since 1985. His training began in the 60's while touring in the East (Navy), and later found himself state-side training. Sorry if I can't give more details on this - it's been awhile and I don't want to mis-quote anything.

In Kajukenbo, his affliation is with Sijo Emperado. He trained under the late Joe Halbuna. Other details, I'm sure Professor(?) Bishop could say.

Sincerely,
Joe Morrill

D.Hardman

05-24-2008, 01:56 AM

D.Hardman

05-25-2008, 04:12 AM

I could care less about Tony's connection to Kosho, but I find this statement hard to believe. Every time I've seen Tom Mitose in the last 15 years or so, he's been accompanied by Tony. In fact here's a picture from last saturdays San Diego Grand Nationals tournament. There may be some questions about the length and intensity of Tony's Kosho training, but his position within Tom's Kosho organization is not in question.

http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc257/emailbishop/bowles-1.jpg?t=1211323889
What part of the statement don't you believe. That someone said that he didn't receive his black belt.
So what you seen him with Tom in the past 15 years, so has everyone else. There's people that been seen with Tom longer than that. Does that make them all black belts. NO!
Mr, Bishop you received your black belt from Gary Forbach(good man) which I think was one of Al Reyes 1st black belt. Mr. Forbach did a couple of interviews with Emperado and in those interviews Emperado was angry because people were out there saying they received the rank pf Professor, he said he never gave certain people that rank. Do you believe him?
You know and everyone else knows if you give a little money you can get any rank you want and that has always been the problem with kajukenbo. We were hoping since everyone else thinks that Kajukenbo is a bunch of garbage, that Kosho would be different. But I guess they just joined the can. Its sad to say.
I'm not trying to be a smart ass,I was just trying to see who was going to tell the truth and looks like know one wants to.
The only person Tony Trained with was with Toms oldest daughter Debbie. Which he received his blue belt. Upper rank were helping her teacher classes since Tom was out doing other things.
So, all they want to do is answer back with a picture at a tournament last week. BIG DEAL WHAT DOES THAT PROVE. Oh, see here I am with my teacher. THAT BS.
I'm sure Tony flew him down just to say here he is or maybe it was to give him a quick lesson. Better yet, give him a DVD on 10 easy steps to Kosho Ryu.
Length and Intesity- NONE
Position within Tom's Kosho organization is a question.
You said he's a 6th-7th under Edmond Louis then they parted and now he's a 9th degree. Gee, I wonder how he go that, is it because he's in a picture with Emperado or is it because he's good friends with Deichi?
Now He's telling his students that he trained with the late Joe Halbuna. That would mean he trained with his teacher. What a joke, now he's really going to piss some people off.

D.Hardman

05-25-2008, 04:15 AM

post deleted

D.Hardman

05-25-2008, 12:10 PM

Ayup. And he's been wearing that pendant for a while, now, too. I'm pretty sure they wouldn't be as tight if there was any question of position or placement.

D.
What pendant are you talking about? The only time you see Bowles wearing that same t-shirt is when Tom is around.What wouldn't be pretty tight his t-shirt, thats all I see.

John Bishop

05-25-2008, 05:00 PM

What part of the statement don't you believe. That someone said that he didn't receive his black belt.

Yep. Don't know why Tom would claim him as a black belt, if he didn't recognize him as one.

So what you seen him with Tom in the past 15 years, so has everyone else. There's people that been seen with Tom longer than that. Does that make them all black belts. NO!

I know Tom, do you? No I wouldn't think that anyone who has ever hung around Tom is one of his black belts.
But I also wouldn't think Tom would let those accompanying him in public wear a black belt and his patch unless the rank was legitimate.

Mr, Bishop you received your black belt from Gary Forbach(good man) which I think was one of Al Reyes 1st black belt. Mr. Forbach did a couple of interviews with Emperado and in those interviews Emperado was angry because people were out there saying they received the rank pf Professor, he said he never gave certain people that rank. Do you believe him?

Actually I went up to 3rd degree under another instructor before I became one of Gary Forbach's students.
Of course I believe Sijo Emperado. I've had many, many conversations with him and know him very well. But I don't see what that has to do with this discussion about Tony's Kosho rank.

You know and everyone else knows if you give a little money you can get any rank you want and that has always been the problem with kajukenbo. We were hoping since everyone else thinks that Kajukenbo is a bunch of garbage, that Kosho would be different. But I guess they just joined the can. Its sad to say.

Who's "we". Let's see, you claim to have been a green belt in Kajukenbo? But you know all this for a fact? Or are you listening to some rumors and innuendo from some equally uninformed people?
Sure there are some people that have been promoted before their time or for political reasons? Welcome to the martial arts. Show me a martial art that doesn't have that, to one extent or another.
But again, what does this have to do with your question about Tony's rank and relationship with Kosho?

I'm not trying to be a smart ass,I was just trying to see who was going to tell the truth and looks like know one wants to.

I think the people who answered you gave as honest a answer as they could. Whether it was 100% accurate, depends on their source of information.
If the member here who claimed to be Tony's former student told you what he was told when he was a student, then he's being honest. Who ever gave him the information may not have been totally honest with him. But their's no need to attack the member 's honesty here.

The only person Tony Trained with was with Toms oldest daughter Debbie. Which he received his blue belt. Upper rank were helping her teacher classes since Tom was out doing other things.
So, all they want to do is answer back with a picture at a tournament last week. BIG DEAL WHAT DOES THAT PROVE. Oh, see here I am with my teacher. THAT BS.
I'm sure Tony flew him down just to say here he is or maybe it was to give him a quick lesson. Better yet, give him a DVD on 10 easy steps to Kosho Ryu.
Length and Intesity- NONE

You know all this to be fact? From a reliable source? If you do, why the need to confirm it here with less reliable sources?
The first answer I gave you was to contact Tom or Tony to get your answer. Have you talked to either man? Not sent unanswered emails to their websites. Have you talked to them?
Nobody knows what the relationship between 2 people is except those 2 people. If it's that important to you, find a way to talk to Tom. He's not a hermit. Go to just about any tournament around the Bay area, and he'll be there. Or the big Kajukenbo events in Las Vegas. Although I will respect Tom's privacy and not give you his phone number, you could make some calls to his people and get in touch with him. I'm sure if someone was parading around misrepresenting themselves as his black belt, he'd want to clear up the misunderstanding.

Position within Tom's Kosho organization is a question.
You said he's a 6th-7th under Edmond Louis then they parted and now he's a 9th degree. Gee, I wonder how he go that, is it because he's in a picture with Emperado or is it because he's good friends with Deichi?

OK, you need to vent your bitter feelings toward Kajukenbo again. Done. Now back to the topic of Tony Bowles rank in Kosho.

Now He's telling his students that he trained with the late Joe Halbuna. That would mean he trained with his teacher. What a joke, now he's really going to piss some people off.

Don't know if his former student was mistaken, or was trying to say that Tom was a student of Joe Halbuna, which is true. Or that it is possible that Tony also got to train some with his teacher's teacher. But I've never heard Tony or any of his people claim that Tony was a Halbuna student.

After this post, I'm trying to understand what your intent is? You came on here asking for information on Tony Bowles. Very few people here know him, or even heard of him, so you got very little information. That doesn't make any of the members here dishonest. No one here is trying to hide anything. They just don't know, or their telling you the little they do know.
You said the reason you were looking for the information was because you were looking for a place to train. Well, your obviously not happy with the information you found, so don't train there. There are many other schools to choose from.
Your allowed to ask questions here, and people are allowed to give honest first hand experience answers.
We do not allow "fraud busting" here. And we do not allow any attacks on people or organizations based on rumor or innuendo.

koshojoe

05-28-2008, 01:53 PM

What part of the statement don't you believe. That someone said that he didn't receive his black belt.
So what you seen him with Tom in the past 15 years, so has everyone else. There's people that been seen with Tom longer than that. Does that make them all black belts. NO!
Mr, Bishop you received your black belt from Gary Forbach(good man) which I think was one of Al Reyes 1st black belt. Mr. Forbach did a couple of interviews with Emperado and in those interviews Emperado was angry because people were out there saying they received the rank pf Professor, he said he never gave certain people that rank. Do you believe him?
You know and everyone else knows if you give a little money you can get any rank you want and that has always been the problem with kajukenbo. We were hoping since everyone else thinks that Kajukenbo is a bunch of garbage, that Kosho would be different. But I guess they just joined the can. Its sad to say.
I'm not trying to be a smart ass,I was just trying to see who was going to tell the truth and looks like know one wants to.
The only person Tony Trained with was with Toms oldest daughter Debbie. Which he received his blue belt. Upper rank were helping her teacher classes since Tom was out doing other things.
So, all they want to do is answer back with a picture at a tournament last week. BIG DEAL WHAT DOES THAT PROVE. Oh, see here I am with my teacher. THAT BS.
I'm sure Tony flew him down just to say here he is or maybe it was to give him a quick lesson. Better yet, give him a DVD on 10 easy steps to Kosho Ryu.
Length and Intesity- NONE
Position within Tom's Kosho organization is a question.
You said he's a 6th-7th under Edmond Louis then they parted and now he's a 9th degree. Gee, I wonder how he go that, is it because he's in a picture with Emperado or is it because he's good friends with Deichi?
Now He's telling his students that he trained with the late Joe Halbuna. That would mean he trained with his teacher. What a joke, now he's really going to piss some people off.
I suppose the only way you're going to get an answer is to ask him yourself. Second hand information from a third party can twist the facts (albeit unintentional); ever played that game where one person in the circle says something, and by the time it's comes around, it's totally different from the original source? As for his training with Joe Halbuna, I don't recall how long, what ranks (if any) were awarded, or if he received a certification to teach from him. If my memory serves me correctly he said, he "trained" with him. Incidently, so also did Soke Thomas Mitose. It's not unusual for martial artist to cross train in various "styles". And, if an established reputable teacher has listed a student on their "tree" as a black belt, who am I to question it? There is no universal standard in the U.S. for verifying if someone is a certified instructor or not. Though I understand there have been several attempts to do so - none stuck.

I can not verify anything GMaster Bowles says, but I do know one thing: His teaching is effective. I have no doubt he is an excellent teacher, dare I say, he's a master.

In your post May 11th, you said, "you were doing a back ground check...Before (you) go to study with anyone." Are you thinking of training with GMaster Bowles, or one of his instructors, and who may that be?

You also replied to me: "There is NO way in hell that he ever trained with the late Joe Halbuna. THATS A FACT!" Can you explain why?

Mr.NGMA

05-28-2008, 07:57 PM

D.Hardman

06-02-2008, 12:34 AM

I have a certificate signed by Soke Mitose as well as his daughter, and I wear a gold Kosho Ryu Penadant, and can rank up to brown belt in Kosho Ryu.yet my name isn't on their list on their site either.....it doesn't change who I am.

That doesn't mean that someone who isn't on that list isn't recognized as black belts under Soke Mitose. As for Soke's daughter teaching the lessons.....

I can attest that anyone trained by Thomas Mitose's family absolutly knows Kosho Ryu. If Soke Mitose acknowledges their teaching abilities, then that is ok by me.

What with the gold penadant thing.So what I also have one. What does that mean? I know how your recognized? So don't go there. You know what, Where were you in '68 or '69 when he opened his school in Daly City. You have know idea what was being taught during that time. I never questioned his daughter teaching, she's awesome so was her sister Liz.

D.Hardman

06-02-2008, 12:46 AM

I suppose the only way you're going to get an answer is to ask him yourself. Second hand information from a third party can twist the facts (albeit unintentional); ever played that game where one person in the circle says something, and by the time it's comes around, it's totally different from the original source? As for his training with Joe Halbuna, I don't recall how long, what ranks (if any) were awarded, or if he received a certification to teach from him. If my memory serves me correctly he said, he "trained" with him. Incidently, so also did Soke Thomas Mitose. It's not unusual for martial artist to cross train in various "styles". And, if an established reputable teacher has listed a student on their "tree" as a black belt, who am I to question it? There is no universal standard in the U.S. for verifying if someone is a certified instructor or not. Though I understand there have been several attempts to do so - none stuck.

I can not verify anything GMaster Bowles says, but I do know one thing: His teaching is effective. I have no doubt he is an excellent teacher, dare I say, he's a master.

In your post May 11th, you said, "you were doing a back ground check...Before (you) go to study with anyone." Are you thinking of training with GMaster Bowles, or one of his instructors, and who may that be?

You also replied to me: "There is NO way in hell that he ever trained with the late Joe Halbuna. THATS A FACT!" Can you explain why?

Why would I train with someone that I know didn't receive his black belt.
I know several people that trained with the Late Joe Halbuna and they all said NO way. People before Barro/Mitose during and after Tom trained with Halbuna. Ask Frank Conway, Bob Machmeier,Bernard Cortez better yet Jeff Wong and Tim Louie. Any more questions?

D.Hardman

06-02-2008, 12:49 AM

Yep. Don't know why Tom would claim him as a black belt, if he didn't recognize him as one.

I know Tom, do you? No I wouldn't think that anyone who has ever hung around Tom is one of his black belts.
But I also wouldn't think Tom would let those accompanying him in public wear a black belt and his patch unless the rank was legitimate.

Actually I went up to 3rd degree under another instructor before I became one of Gary Forbach's students.
Of course I believe Sijo Emperado. I've had many, many conversations with him and know him very well. But I don't see what that has to do with this discussion about Tony's Kosho rank.

Who's "we". Let's see, you claim to have been a green belt in Kajukenbo? But you know all this for a fact? Or are you listening to some rumors and innuendo from some equally uninformed people?
Sure there are some people that have been promoted before their time or for political reasons? Welcome to the martial arts. Show me a martial art that doesn't have that, to one extent or another.
But again, what does this have to do with your question about Tony's rank and relationship with Kosho?

I think the people who answered you gave as honest a answer as they could. Whether it was 100% accurate, depends on their source of information.
If the member here who claimed to be Tony's former student told you what he was told when he was a student, then he's being honest. Who ever gave him the information may not have been totally honest with him. But their's no need to attack the member 's honesty here.

You know all this to be fact? From a reliable source? If you do, why the need to confirm it here with less reliable sources?
The first answer I gave you was to contact Tom or Tony to get your answer. Have you talked to either man? Not sent unanswered emails to their websites. Have you talked to them?
Nobody knows what the relationship between 2 people is except those 2 people. If it's that important to you, find a way to talk to Tom. He's not a hermit. Go to just about any tournament around the Bay area, and he'll be there. Or the big Kajukenbo events in Las Vegas. Although I will respect Tom's privacy and not give you his phone number, you could make some calls to his people and get in touch with him. I'm sure if someone was parading around misrepresenting themselves as his black belt, he'd want to clear up the misunderstanding.

OK, you need to vent your bitter feelings toward Kajukenbo again. Done. Now back to the topic of Tony Bowles rank in Kosho.

Don't know if his former student was mistaken, or was trying to say that Tom was a student of Joe Halbuna, which is true. Or that it is possible that Tony also got to train some with his teacher's teacher. But I've never heard Tony or any of his people claim that Tony was a Halbuna student.

After this post, I'm trying to understand what your intent is? You came on here asking for information on Tony Bowles. Very few people here know him, or even heard of him, so you got very little information. That doesn't make any of the members here dishonest. No one here is trying to hide anything. They just don't know, or their telling you the little they do know.
You said the reason you were looking for the information was because you were looking for a place to train. Well, your obviously not happy with the information you found, so don't train there. There are many other schools to choose from.
Your allowed to ask questions here, and people are allowed to give honest first hand experience answers.
We do not allow "fraud busting" here. And we do not allow any attacks on people or organizations based on rumor or innuendo.

Check out what his own student said (JT MORRILL)

John Bishop

06-02-2008, 02:52 AM

After this post, I'm trying to understand what your intent is? You came on here asking for information on Tony Bowles. Very few people here know him, or even heard of him, so you got very little information. That doesn't make any of the members here dishonest. No one here is trying to hide anything. They just don't know, or their telling you the little they do know.
You said the reason you were looking for the information was because you were looking for a place to train. Well, your obviously not happy with the information you found, so don't train there. There are many other schools to choose from.
Your allowed to ask questions here, and people are allowed to give honest first hand experience answers.
We do not allow "fraud busting" here. And we do not allow any attacks on people or organizations based on rumor or innuendo.

My statement still stands

koshojoe

06-02-2008, 09:53 AM

Why would I train with someone that I know didn't receive his black belt.
I know several people that trained with the Late Joe Halbuna and they all said NO way. People before Barro/Mitose during and after Tom trained with Halbuna. Ask Frank Conway, Bob Machmeier,Bernard Cortez better yet Jeff Wong and Tim Louie. Any more questions?
Mr. Harding,
You are under the impression that I am debating with you. Perhaps I've mis-read your post, or maybe I came off sounding like that. Either way, my response was to share - simply share with you what I know. If you're looking for a qualified instructor I wish you well. If you're motive for this query on this thread is mercenary in nature, then I'm done with this conversation.

Mr.NGMA

06-04-2008, 12:03 AM

koshojoe

06-04-2008, 02:05 AM

FOR THE RECORD. I checked with Grand Master Bowles and found that it was I who was mistaken. He never trained under the Late Joe Halbuna - it was his teacher, Hanshi Tom Mitose. Please forgive me of the misquote! Good luck in your search for a teacher Ms. D. Hardman.

koshojoe

06-04-2008, 10:41 AM

It seams in my group that nobody knows who you are.

My post about the pendant was a loaded one.

If you have a gold pendant, and know Debbie and Liz, then you have been around more than just Kajukenbo as a green belt.

If you want to see if someone is truly ranked what they say, then ask to see their certificate and follow up on the name on the certificate to see if they are legit. If you don't like them, then don't train under them.

There is no reason to unload on a forum if you have a problem with a certain individual.

I
Mr. NGMA (Kosho salute), nice to meet another in the art. I too have the "pendant".

Sincerely,

Mr.NGMA

06-04-2008, 08:42 PM

Hi JP,
thanks for replying. It's nice to hear from you.

I'd like to also say hi to Mr. Bishop. I've read many of your posts. You have integrity.

elder999

06-04-2008, 09:17 PM

I'd like to also say hi to Mr. Bishop. I've read many of your posts. You have integrity.

I'll second that....in spades.......:lol:

D.Hardman

06-06-2008, 04:01 AM

My statement still stands
You know Mr. Bishop your statement still stands. Which means nothing to me. You have done your share of Mitose bashing on other forums. So think your fooling me. You have talked smack about Barro/Mitose and Kosho Ryu. Now you want to make yourself look good. For someone to walk around and say they received a black belt,But yet can't tell you who or when. I know for a fact it wasn't Barro/Mitose. Ask other Kajukenbo people that trained with him. He's a self made black under Kosho Ryu.

D.Hardman

06-06-2008, 04:11 AM

It seams in my group that nobody knows who you are.

My post about the pendant was a loaded one.

If you have a gold pendant, and know Debbie and Liz, then you have been around more than just Kajukenbo as a green belt.

If you want to see if someone is truly ranked what they say, then ask to see their certificate and follow up on the name on the certificate to see if they are legit. If you don't like them, then don't train under them.

There is no reason to unload on a forum if you have a problem with a certain individual.

I
Why do you say that, anyone can buy a pendant. They don't have a certificate to show. Don't worry Mr.Relp I won't be training with him. Why not unload on a forum everyone else does. Ask Mr. Bishop he has done it on other forums, so why can't I. My statement still stands he can't show a black belt certificate from Daly City. All he has to do is come clean.

MJS

06-06-2008, 12:43 PM

D.Hardman,

I am not a Kajukenbo student, I don't know as much Kaju history as some others on here do, so I am not really in a place to comment on who trained with who, rank issues, etc. However, it is human nature to disagree, but I do ask that we all do our best to stay civil. If you havent already, please take some time to read thru the rules of this forum. There is no need to bash members of the forum.

Thank you.

Mike

John Bishop

06-06-2008, 05:00 PM

You know Mr. Bishop your statement still stands. Which means nothing to me.

We do not allow "fraud busting" here. And we do not allow any attacks on people or organizations based on rumor or innuendo.

Well it should, since it's what we refer to here as a "moderator warning".

You have done your share of Mitose bashing on other forums. So think your fooling me. You have talked smack about Barro/Mitose and Kosho Ryu. Now you want to make yourself look good.

In the past I've participated in several discussions on several forums about James Mitose and his history. You can refer to it as bashing, but I consider it presenting documented facts and reference material to try and separate historical facts from historical fiction.
Either way, my previous discussions on other forums has nothing to do with this forum, and this particular topic.
I will say that I don't recall ever "bashing" Tom Barro-Mitose at any time.

For someone to walk around and say they received a black belt,But yet can't tell you who or when. I know for a fact it wasn't Barro/Mitose. Ask other Kajukenbo people that trained with him. He's a self made black under Kosho Ryu.

OK, so you say again. Feel free to present supporting evidence that makes your statement a fact. Because your statement doesn't agree with what I've been told by as recently as last night.
Mark Mitose, Sharon Wong, and Ken Torres are members here. Mark hasn't been active in several weeks, but I'll email him this thread and see if he wants to give a response from the Mitose family.

Danjo

06-06-2008, 08:30 PM

Why do you say that, anyone can buy a pendant. They don't have a certificate to show. Don't worry Mr.Relp I won't be training with him. Why not unload on a forum everyone else does. Ask Mr. Bishop he has done it on other forums, so why can't I. My statement still stands he can't show a black belt certificate from Daly City. All he has to do is come clean.

Why not identify yourself (as do John Bishop MJS myself and others) so we can get a clear idea of who you are?

I've never read where John bashes Thomas Mitose or his father. I, on the other hand, have bashed those that support ridiculous ideas about James Mitose's history to the point where I was kicked off of a forum for it. If that's the debate you want to start here, I'm up for it, but you should start a new thread.

Oh, and give us your name and training history so we're all on the same ground.

koshojoe

06-06-2008, 09:20 PM

Why does it have come from "Daly City"?

John Bishop

06-06-2008, 09:55 PM

Mr.NGMA

06-07-2008, 12:34 AM

Mr. Hardman,

the pendant was only a rouse to see if you were more than a green belt in Kajukenbo. You gave yourself away from there.I'd be happy to hear more about your history.

By the way, my last name is Relf, not Relp.

D.Hardman

06-07-2008, 03:16 AM

Why not identify yourself (as do John Bishop MJS myself and others) so we can get a clear idea of who you are?

I've never read where John bashes Thomas Mitose or his father. I, on the other hand, have bashed those that support ridiculous ideas about James Mitose's history to the point where I was kicked off of a forum for it. If that's the debate you want to start here, I'm up for it, but you should start a new thread.

Oh, and give us your name and training history so we're all on the same ground.

Danjo, In Kajukenbo Cafe forum I read earlier this week, it was March 2006 when Mr. Bishop was bashing the Mitoses. Ater reading your comment I went back to Kajukenbo Cafe and could know longer find the post, as a matter of fact the only related Kosho Ryu post left was the interview with Christopher Geary.

I said who I was, name David Hardman trained in Daly City on Mission St. at Barro's Karate. What more do you need.

D.Hardman

06-07-2008, 03:18 AM

D.Hardman

06-07-2008, 03:23 AM

Mr. Hardman:
I've been informed by Mark Mitose today that he has contacted you with contact information, and is awaiting your response. Since this is the source of the information you are desiring, I suggest you take him up on his offer and contact him.

Mr. Bishop Thank you for the information, yes I been contacted by Email by Mark Mitose. I have every intention to contact him when returning home. I've been out of state on business this week.

David Hardman

Danjo

06-07-2008, 12:12 PM

Danjo, In Kajukenbo Cafe forum I read earlier this week, it was March 2006 when Mr. Bishop was bashing the Mitoses. Ater reading your comment I went back to Kajukenbo Cafe and could know longer find the post, as a matter of fact the only related Kosho Ryu post left was the interview with Christopher Geary.

I said who I was, name David Hardman trained in Daly City on Mission St. at Barro's Karate. What more do you need.

David,

Sorry, I guess I missed where you identified yourself. If you put it in your profile, it'd make it easier for folks not wanting to read back through all the posts.

As to the other, since you can't find the post you're talking about, why not tell us what exactly you considered "bashing"?

Was it anything to do with the fact that James Mitose was a convicted murderer? Or the manner in which he conducted himself at his trial? Was it how he acted according to those that knew him such as Ed Parker, and Adriano Emperado?

Do you consider it "bashing" when people are trying to get the the truth of where he learned Kenpo from, i.e., was it the monastary in Japan, or from someone in Hawaii?

Tell us what you thought this "bashing" was. People here and elsewhere know that John Bishop isn't shy about his posts or writing, so tell us what you considered "bashing" and to whom it was directed.

Danjo

06-07-2008, 12:23 PM

I said who I was, name David Hardman trained in Daly City on Mission St. at Barro's Karate. What more do you need.

Direct me to the post where you gave your name before this one. I just went back through them and couldn't find this info, nor is it in your profile. I thought that "D.Hardman" was some sort of acronym, ala, "E.Nigma" or something and that the "D" stood for something like "Dynomite"

Also, who did you get your greenbelt in Kajukenbo from?

swong

06-07-2008, 10:39 PM

Mr. Bishop Thank you for the information, yes I been contacted by Email by Mark Mitose. I have every intention to contact him when returning home. I've been out of state on business this week.

David Hardman
David Hardman,
My name is Sharon Wong. I have not posted on this forum for quite sometime, although I do read the posts regularly. I had been asked by The Mitose Family last year to refrain from posting on this forum. I have been following your thread and after reading all of your comments have decide that I can no longer be silent. I have not contacted The Mitose Family in regards to the comments that I am about to make but feel strongly that someone has to put you straight. First off I remember you as Dave Hartman. If my memory serves me right, you are or were the tall lanky white guy ? Hung around Gus and Eric ? Do you remember me ? ooops at that time my name was Spremich. Remember I used to come down for Sparring Practice ? All the Guys and I was the only women there besides the daughters. I would like to comment on several of the remarks that you are making. For instance: I trained and studied under Jeff Wong, received Black. I am presently " Godan " under Mitose Soke. Does that mean that my rank is in question also?
After the school closed in Daly City, Mitose Soke opened several other schools throughout Northern California. How do you know he was not training at one of the other schools or at one of Mitose Soke students schools? Who are you to question ranks given by Mitose Soke? You say that you are in touch with the oldtimers, may I ask who? because I am still in touch with many of them,some on a regular basis.
You say you have a medallion from years ago? Who did you buy that from? If I am not mistaken The Mitose Family keeps records of all Medallion Purchases. Unless you have a Juchnik Medallion.
This is as simple as I can put it. If you trained with Mitose Soke back in the day it was
Barro's Karate Kung-Fu and knew GMTony Bowles and now are questioning his status
you are an Idiot. Because where do you come off questioning any actions that Mitose Soke makes!!

Sharon Wong

Mr.NGMA

06-07-2008, 10:56 PM

Taken from the above post from Sharon Wong

(You say you have a medallion from years ago? Who did you buy that from? If I am not mistaken The Mitose Family keeps records of all Medallion Purchases.)

Very good Mrs. Wong! You saw the direction of my post.

Ken Relf aka mr.ngma

Mr.NGMA

06-08-2008, 08:36 PM

Mrs Wong,

I picked up an older Karate book, and saw your name in it when you were still under the name Spremich. I must say that your competition stats is impressive!!

KenG

06-09-2008, 01:38 AM

Mr. Bishop i know this is not the place to ask this question but i am gonna stick it in here anyway... i am from baltimore and we have epak schools out the rear but no kaju schools not that i am not happy with where im at i am just very interested in kaju because i hear it talked about on the net all the time ...there is a video set on ebay fairly cheap by a man named Gary Forbach i was wondering what his lineage is and how the tapes are if you know... and do all kaju schoools have a set cirriculum like epak or does it vary from school to school... also after the fight quest episode i was quite impressed... anyway's thanks...

John Bishop

06-09-2008, 02:01 AM

D.Hardman

06-09-2008, 10:47 PM

David Hardman,
My name is Sharon Wong. I have not posted on this forum for quite sometime, although I do read the posts regularly. I had been asked by The Mitose Family last year to refrain from posting on this forum. I have been following your thread and after reading all of your comments have decide that I can no longer be silent. I have not contacted The Mitose Family in regards to the comments that I am about to make but feel strongly that someone has to put you straight. First off I remember you as Dave Hartman. If my memory serves me right, you are or were the tall lanky white guy ? Hung around Gus and Eric ? Do you remember me ? ooops at that time my name was Spremich. Remember I used to come down for Sparring Practice ? All the Guys and I was the only women there besides the daughters. I would like to comment on several of the remarks that you are making. For instance: I trained and studied under Jeff Wong, received Black. I am presently " Godan " under Mitose Soke. Does that mean that my rank is in question also?
After the school closed in Daly City, Mitose Soke opened several other schools throughout Northern California. How do you know he was not training at one of the other schools or at one of Mitose Soke students schools? Who are you to question ranks given by Mitose Soke? You say that you are in touch with the oldtimers, may I ask who? because I am still in touch with many of them,some on a regular basis.
You say you have a medallion from years ago? Who did you buy that from? If I am not mistaken The Mitose Family keeps records of all Medallion Purchases. Unless you have a Juchnik Medallion.
This is as simple as I can put it. If you trained with Mitose Soke back in the day it was
Barro's Karate Kung-Fu and knew GMTony Bowles and now are questioning his status
you are an Idiot. Because where do you come off questioning any actions that Mitose Soke makes!!

Sharon Wong

Hi Sharon,

Yes, I remember you well. I would say that most of the guys or dummies
would remember you best by the BRUISES you left them with. Definitely a hard hitter!!
My name is HARDMAN no pun intended.....You were close. You have a good memory.
Juchnick Medallion or Mitose Medallion what difference does it make?

Hey, let me ask you something..........
Mark Mitose Emailed me and insinuated that your husband left J. Halbuna
as a BLUE BELT. Any truth to this? What's up with that? How is that for your Kosho Ryu Support? Mark sent this to me thru his private Email.
If you would like for me to forward this to you just need your Email.
If I am not mistaken Mark was a Blue or Purple Belt when the school closed. It was the older sisters running the school.

Sharon, all I wanted to know was where did Tony Bowles get his Black Belt from ? From who and where ? I Emailed the Kosho Ryu website and Tony Bowles no answer was received. Mr. Bishop told me that I should contact Tom or Tony. I finally get a response from Mark. He was aggravated. He said he wanted me to have a meeting with his father and
wanted me to call him. What I do not understand is this....Men as important as they, are going to waste their time on a nobody like me.
All I asked was a simple question Where did Tony Bowles receive his Black.
I was searching for a new school to train with here in Southern Calif. Asked a few questions, his name was brought up, I just wanted to know where he received his Black Belt. Mr. Bishop said that he did not know, that he has known of Tony Bowles since 1991 or 1992.
I never received an answer to my question.
Let me ask you who did you receive your Black Belt from? You would answer proudly to anyone who would put this question to you........
You would say Jeff Wong ! Right.
Why is it so hard then to get an answer from anyone regarding Tony Bowles teacher?

Thanks for your time it was nice to hear from you,
David Hardman

swong

06-10-2008, 03:54 AM

Hi Sharon,

Yes, I remember you well. I would say that most of the guys or dummies
would remember you best by the BRUISES you left them with. Definitely a hard hitter!!
My name is HARDMAN no pun intended.....You were close. You have a good memory.
Juchnick Medallion or Mitose Medallion what difference does it make?

Hey, let me ask you something..........
Mark Mitose Emailed me and insinuated that your husband left J. Halbuna
as a BLUE BELT. Any truth to this? What's up with that? How is that for your Kosho Ryu Support? Mark sent this to me thru his private Email.
If you would like for me to forward this to you just need your Email.
If I am not mistaken Mark was a Blue or Purple Belt when the school closed. It was the older sisters running the school.

Sharon, all I wanted to know was where did Tony Bowles get his Black Belt from ? From who and where ? I Emailed the Kosho Ryu website and Tony Bowles no answer was received. Mr. Bishop told me that I should contact Tom or Tony. I finally get a response from Mark. He was aggravated. He said he wanted me to have a meeting with his father and
wanted me to call him. What I do not understand is this....Men as important as they, are going to waste their time on a nobody like me.
All I asked was a simple question Where did Tony Bowles receive his Black.
I was searching for a new school to train with here in Southern Calif. Asked a few questions, his name was brought up, I just wanted to know where he received his Black Belt. Mr. Bishop said that he did not know, that he has known of Tony Bowles since 1991 or 1992.
I never received an answer to my question.
Let me ask you who did you receive your Black Belt from? You would answer proudly to anyone who would put this question to you........
You would say Jeff Wong ! Right.
Why is it so hard then to get an answer from anyone regarding Tony Bowles teacher?

Thanks for your time it was nice to hear from you,
David Hardman

David, Yeah you got it the hard hitter,I don't hold back, I don't back down to anyone especially someone like you.....Sometimes that gets me in trouble!

1. MEDALLIONS- Yes it makes a difference if you bought it from The Mitose Family they are the real deal if not 2nd rate. My understanding is that The Family Crest is patent.They also keep records!

2.I will have to contact Mark on the state you claim he made I can't imagine him making a statement like that pertaining to my husband....

3. Mitose Kosho Ryu Family has always had our back. Jeff and myself have known the Mitose Family for many years, Jeff early 60's myself since '69.

4. As for GM Tony Bowles whatever Mitose Soke says is the last word and should not be questioned.

5. As for Mark being a blue or purple belt when the school closed he continued his training in San Mateo. As for his ranking he is a direct Decendant and his bloodline cannot be questioned.

In conclusion you have repeatedly asked about GM Tony Bowles, my advice to you dude is to drop it.....

Sharon Wong
(Like I said before Mitose Soke has No idea that I'm on this forum, I hoping he's not going to get mad) But, someone needs to shut you up and I guess as always I'm the one with the Big mouth.

MJS

06-10-2008, 09:59 AM

David, Yeah you got it the hard hitter,I don't hold back, I don't back down to anyone especially someone like you.....Sometimes that gets me in trouble!

1. MEDALLIONS- Yes it makes a difference if you bought it from The Mitose Family they are the real deal if not 2nd rate. My understanding is that The Family Crest is patent.They also keep records!

2.I will have to contact Mark on the state you claim he made I can't imagine him making a statement like that pertaining to my husband....

3. Mitose Kosho Ryu Family has always had our back. Jeff and myself have known the Mitose Family for many years, Jeff early 60's myself since '69.

4. As for GM Tony Bowles whatever Mitose Soke says is the last word and should not be questioned.

5. As for Mark being a blue or purple belt when the school closed he continued his training in San Mateo. As for his ranking he is a direct Decendant and his bloodline cannot be questioned.

In conclusion you have repeatedly asked about GM Tony Bowles, my advice to you dude is to drop it.....

Sharon Wong
(Like I said before Mitose Soke has No idea that I'm on this forum, I hoping he's not going to get mad) But, someone needs to shut you up and I guess as always I'm the one with the Big mouth.

Its always nice to hear things from people who may be closer to the source than others. That being said, thank you for posting.

On another note, I've always wondered why people would refrain from doing something just because someone else told them not to do it. I mean, maybe its just me, but if my teachers started dictating to me what I could/could not do, especially outside the training hall, I'd probably start looking for new teachers. But, maybe thats just me.

Mike, don't post on Martial Talk anymore.

Mike, don't wear anything green, except on the first Tuesday of every month.

Mike, don't train with this teacher because I don't like him. On a side note, I had a teacher like that. He had issues with a former student who left to open his own school. I had no issues with this other person, who I may also add, is a member of this forum. I still maintained then, and still today, a friendship with him.

See what I mean?:)

Mike

swong

06-10-2008, 11:00 AM

Its always nice to hear things from people who may be closer to the source than others. That being said, thank you for posting.

On another note, I've always wondered why people would refrain from doing something just because someone else told them not to do it. I mean, maybe its just me, but if my teachers started dictating to me what I could/could not do, especially outside the training hall, I'd probably start looking for new teachers. But, maybe thats just me.

Mike, don't post on Martial Talk anymore.

Mike, don't wear anything green, except on the first Tuesday of every month.

Mike, don't train with this teacher because I don't like him. On a side note, I had a teacher like that. He had issues with a former student who left to open his own school. I had no issues with this other person, who I may also add, is a member of this forum. I still maintained then, and still today, a friendship with him.

See what I mean?:)

Mike

Mike, He is not telling me not to talk, But out of respect I should let him know that I am responing to some of the commets being made. Last year some of us had gotten into a heated match and things were getting out of hand so we were told refrain from making any other comments. It really wasn't going any where just a shouting match with another camp, other wise my mouth will never stop running. So, really NO one can dictate when I can or can't talk. But on the other hand if Mitose Soke did say stop I probally would. After all he is the one in charge of Kosho Ryu. Other wise its fair game.
I hope this makes since, Because they know its hard for me to keep my mouth shut. I've been around for sometime and they know I can answer just about anything, But some matters need to me answer by the family. I wouldn"t want to say something I shouldn't say.

Sharon

Danjo

06-10-2008, 12:08 PM

On another note, I've always wondered why people would refrain from doing something just because someone else told them not to do it. I mean, maybe its just me, but if my teachers started dictating to me what I could/could not do, especially outside the training hall, I'd probably start looking for new teachers. But, maybe thats just me.

Mike, don't post on Martial Talk anymore.

Mike, don't wear anything green, except on the first Tuesday of every month.

Mike, don't train with this teacher because I don't like him. On a side note, I had a teacher like that. He had issues with a former student who left to open his own school. I had no issues with this other person, who I may also add, is a member of this forum. I still maintained then, and still today, a friendship with him.

See what I mean?:)

Mike

I think it's a matter of respect. It's not "orders" like in the military, but in Kajukenbo, as I'm sure it is in other arts out of Hawaii, we consider ourselves family/Ohana. You respect your elders as long as their request is not outrageous, i.e., "Sweep the leg!!!" (Actually, I probably would sweep the leg given I'm Kaju. And follow up with ground and pound and a leg dislocate or something.) When you're a student of someone, you're like one of their kids and what you do reflects on them. So it naturally follows that if they make a reasonable request, you comply.

In the more business models of martial arts instruction, the instructor is a seller of goods and the student is a client. In that sort of relationship, the instructor has little if any hold on the student's loyalties outside of the training hall.

mitose

06-10-2008, 03:17 PM

Hello Everyone,
This is Mark Mitose,
Yes I emailed this David and asked why ? I gave him my phone no.
told him my dad and I would like to meet and talk.Guess what?
no response.He can only talk on this forum,I guess.
here's my questions how do you know so much about our personal lives.
how long have you been a student at mission st. to know everyones business
AS FOR MR.WONG , YOU SHOULD KNOW HE IS WITH THE FAMILY AND IS A GREAT MARTIAL ARTIST WITH SO MUCH ENERGY.I AM ALWAYS AMAZED HOW HE CAN OUT DO THE YOUNG GUYS.THAT STATEMENT WAS AN EXAMPLE WHAT PEOPLE SAY.YOU BEING A MR. KNOW IT ALL SHOULD HAVE KNOWN WHERE HE GOT HIS BLACK FROM!SINCE YOU DON'T I GUESS YOU DON'T KNOW EVERYTHING. HE CURRENTLY IS A 7TH DAN WITH US AND THAT IS WHAT COUNTS.I I REALLY THINK YOU SHOULD HOW CLOSE WE ARE AND WE PUT A STOP TO THAT RUMOR BEFORE IT GOT OUT.YOU MADE SO MANY THREATS IN YOUR EMAILS,YET YOU CAN'T MAN UP AND MEET WITH ME. SO JUST STOP IT.I REALLY DON'T THINK YOU CAN FIND A SCHOOL TO TRAIN AT AFTER THIS. So I really don't care talking anymore unless you want to meet and talk over a nice dinner.
THANKS FOR EVERYTHING.IT JUST MAKES ME A WISER MAN?HAHAHAHA

Kreth

06-10-2008, 03:27 PM

AS FOR MR.WONG ,
Um, I don't have a dog in this fight, but... "Mr." Wong gave "his" name as Sharon... :idunno:

John Bishop

06-10-2008, 03:56 PM

Hi Sharon,

Hey, let me ask you something..........
Mark Mitose Emailed me and insinuated that your husband left J. Halbuna
as a BLUE BELT. Any truth to this? What's up with that? How is that for your Kosho Ryu Support? Mark sent this to me thru his private Email.

Sharon's husband is Jeff Wong.

MJS

06-10-2008, 06:29 PM

I think it's a matter of respect. It's not "orders" like in the military, but in Kajukenbo, as I'm sure it is in other arts out of Hawaii, we consider ourselves family/Ohana. You respect your elders as long as their request is not outrageous, i.e., "Sweep the leg!!!" (Actually, I probably would sweep the leg given I'm Kaju. And follow up with ground and pound and a leg dislocate or something.) When you're a student of someone, you're like one of their kids and what you do reflects on them. So it naturally follows that if they make a reasonable request, you comply.

In the more business models of martial arts instruction, the instructor is a seller of goods and the student is a client. In that sort of relationship, the instructor has little if any hold on the student's loyalties outside of the training hall.

Client?? Oh God Dan, now I'm having flashbacks of another high ranking Kenpoist who uses that term. LOL! All kidding aside...the people that I train with...IMO, I feel that we're all a big family. I get together with people outside of class. Its not that much of a business relationship, where the buck stops after the class is done.

Likewise, within reason, I do what my teachers tell me. But, I don't think that telling me to not post on a forum falls into that category....but thats just me. :)

Danjo

06-10-2008, 06:35 PM