To blade or not to blade...

[Sifu DangeRuss]

http://www.anglefire.com/wa/dangerusskenpo

This is an interesting quote, however...the "Universal Patterns of Motion" are just that...Universal. This means that they can be applied to any weapon.

[Michael Billings]

Russ,

First, welcome to Martial Talk. Always glad to have a new member with experience to add to the forum.

I was unclear as to what you are trying to get at with this thread and some of the others. Your statement here is not something subject to arguement or discussion, rather a given for most of us. Are you postulating or expounding? I just picked this one to respond to and get some clarification of your intent and what you are expecting back from us on this.

Your statement here does not seem to have a question attached, or be a "Thread Starter." Many of us are familiar, intimately, with blades, and the Universal Pattern ... If you could add a little bit to your observation it would help me focus in on what you are trying to get to. You will probably get back some responses that will go somewhere in terms of furthering knowledge or sparking interest.

Thanks for starting so many, but please just add a little more for some of us that need a little more grist.

Oss,
-Michael
Kenpo-Texas.com (http://www.kenpo-texas.com)

[Sifu DangeRuss]

Michael...

Alas forgive me. The format of this particular forum was (okay IS) new to me. I had meant that as a response to a thread by GouRonin:

"Interesting quote from Mike Pick Jr...
I spoke with Mike Pick Jr. regarding this quote and he gave me permission to use his name with it.

"Kenpo in its most evolved and learned state is a knife system."

I enjoy knife work myself so I thought I would share this thought with you all and see where it took us.

Cheers!"

It was my unfamiliarty with the format that lead me to "Post a new Thread" as opposed to simply replying to a previous one. Chalk it up as a rookie error. I haven't finished my push-ups from my last spanking for misusage of this forum, but I swear...as soon as i do. I'll begin anew for you.

I also enjoy blade work, as well as stick work and flexible weapon work. I simply meant to point out the truly universal applications of the Theories of Motion. I believe that Kenpo's most "Evloved State" is entirely dependant on the practitioner, not the choice of tool that one uses to apply the principals.

Humbly chastised...
a fellow travellor of the Martial Way...

Sifu Russ

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by Sifu DangeRuss
"Mike Pick Jr. states that: "Kenpo in its most evolved and learned state is a knife system."

I believe that Kenpo's most "Evolved State" is entirely dependant on the practitioner, not the choice of tool that one uses to apply the principals. Sifu Russ


Yes, I believe that what he really means is that:
"Kenpo in it's most evolved and learned state "CAN" be a knife system".

It also could be several other "systems" like you say, depending upon the individual's focus.

:asian:

[Michael Billings]

Sorry to be untimely in responding, but I was out of town and unconnected for a couple of days. Boy did the posts pile up.

Gotcha Russ, I understand Mike Pick's bias for the blade. He is exceptionally talanted with it, as we all know. Since you cited the quote it makes sense to me.

When you are talking the Gaseous State of Motion, I interpret this as meaning you fill the available volume of space with whatever is available, natural weapons, sticks, knives, belts, shoes, and my personal favorite, chairs. As Dennis Conatser noted:


"Kenpo in it's most evolved and learned state "CAN" be a knife system".

This interpretation is one I like. In my job, I am prohibited from carrying a tactical folder (pepper spray, stun gun, handguns ok, but not knives.) I have always trained with knives, but seldom carry one in the real world, although I am also never "unarmed" so long as I have my knowledge, training, and williness to use both.

Yours in Kenpo,
-Michael
Kenpo-Texas.com (http://kenpo-texas.com)

[Sifu DangeRuss]

BTW....I should have pointed out that no disrespect was intended towards Mike Pick. (Put away the Blade !!!) I agree that Kenpo most certainly CAN be a dynamic and incredibly effect knife art. I also acknowlege Mr Parker's fondness of bladed weapons. I typically carry an assortment myself. However the principals of motion work equally as well with just about anything you can put in your grubby li'l mits.

[arnisador]

We can merge threads if desired. It happens all the time. Just contact a moderator. Ideally the original poster should make the request if it was he or she who misposted his or her response in the first place.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-

[desert_dragon]

Just about any kenpo technique can be executed with a knife or knives, stick or sticks, rock or rocks... whatever. This is evident with forms 6 and 7. The fact is that any weapon is meerely an extention of your hand. To be effective with weapons you must be profficient with your hands.

[Kirk]

Originally posted by desert_dragon
Just about any kenpo technique can be executed with a knife or knives, stick or sticks, rock or rocks... whatever. This is evident with forms 6 and 7. The fact is that any weapon is meerely an extention of your hand. To be effective with weapons you must be profficient with your hands.

If you have a knife in each hand, you could end up slicing yourself.

I've only seen form 7 done once ... and that time, the guy ended
up with the knives pointing at himself ... dangerous place to be.

I'm just a purple belt, so I reserve the right to change my opinions
after I actually learn something :D

[jazkiljok]

Originally posted by desert_dragon
Just about any kenpo technique can be executed with a knife or knives, stick or sticks, rock or rocks... whatever. This is evident with forms 6 and 7. The fact is that any weapon is meerely an extention of your hand. To be effective with weapons you must be profficient with your hands.

in regards to small blunt objects- perhaps yes- but machine or hand tooled weapons, range weapons ?

when you say hands what do you mean? do you think if i put a fencing foil in your hand or sabre you're going to be much different from any other novice? i don't know of any empty hand art that prepares you for what it takes to learn proficiency with those weapons accept finding a good fencing teacher to show you.

Escrima and Kali practitioners seem to succeed in training weapons first and have so for quite some time. And can you tell me of one instance in history of military training that the weapon was less important than empty hand training? Do you think really that Roman legions were taught to punch, strike and kick first-- and what spend 2-3 years to get reasonably good at it before they stuck a gladius into their hands? Does this make sense now? Are you really suggesting that a person who could do more to protect themselves by merely having the weapon on them would really have to wait years before they could begin to train with a knife?

the weapon will always dictate its use and what goes for empty hands DOESN'T go for knives, swords, staff, machete, handgun, spears, chairs, baseball bats etc.

just my view- no offense to anyone .

Jaz K.

[Sifu DangeRuss]

In regards to:

"Does this make sense now? Are you really suggesting that a person who could do more to protect themselves by merely having the weapon on them would really have to wait years before they could begin to train with a knife?

the weapon will always dictate its use and what goes for empty hands DOESN'T go for knives, swords, staff, machete, handgun, spears, chairs, baseball bats etc."




What is being suggested, is that with a proper study and understanding of the Theories of Motion, most techniques can be readily adapted to virtually any weapon. That does not mean that you would use each of these different tools identically. That would be preposterous and potentially dangerous (not DangeRuss!). Each and every weapon possesses it's own unique personality. I don't even suggest that any two sticks would be used in the exact same manner or to the same effect, little lone that you would employ a machete in exactly the same manner you would a "rock". There is another Kenpo concept that needs to be added to these considerations......"Tailoring". (Dang it....whoever thunk this stuff up was a genius !!!) Certainly it would behoove everyone to play with a variety of different "toys" and learn their unique characteristics. Just as by practicing with empty hands you learn that each individual hand tool has it's place in your toolbox, so does at least a fundemental understanding of the various types of weapons. Who knows what might be lying within reach when the chips are down ? You need to know how to take maximum advantage of whatever is at hand. You need to understand how to apply the Patterns of Motion to each seperate tool, in order to achieve the greatest effect from that tool


:soapbox:

then again...I'm just a guy who calls himself...

[Doc]

Originally posted by jazkiljok
in regards to small blunt objects- perhaps yes- but machine or hand tooled weapons, range weapons ?

when you say hands what do you mean? do you think if i put a fencing foil in your hand or sabre you're going to be much different from any other novice? i don't know of any empty hand art that prepares you for what it takes to learn proficiency with those weapons accept finding a good fencing teacher to show you.

Escrima and Kali practitioners seem to succeed in training weapons first and have so for quite some time. And can you tell me of one instance in history of military training that the weapon was less important than empty hand training? Do you think really that Roman legions were taught to punch, strike and kick first-- and what spend 2-3 years to get reasonably good at it before they stuck a gladius into their hands? Does this make sense now? Are you really suggesting that a person who could do more to protect themselves by merely having the weapon on them would really have to wait years before they could begin to train with a knife?

the weapon will always dictate its use and what goes for empty hands DOESN'T go for knives, swords, staff, machete, handgun, spears, chairs, baseball bats etc.

just my view- no offense to anyone .

Jaz K.

See, there you go making trouble again by making sense. I'm glad you said it first but you're right. Extended range weapons, weapons of blunt force trauma, and edged and sharp weapons, bring and entirely different dynamic to proper use as extension to natural armatures. Certainly concepts of motion previously learned however can be an asset.

[Phil Elmore]

Knife Fighting (http://www.philelmore.com/martial/knifefighting.htm)

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by Doc
Extended range weapons, weapons of blunt force trauma, and edged and sharp weapons, bring and entirely different dynamic to proper use as extension.


I am leaning toward better understandings of the ICBM. I really love that extension of only one finger.

:D

:asian:

[Crazy Chihuahua]

I have trained with many different types of weapons, both traditional and contemporary, and have found that most weapons of similar size or basic shape can be used interchangably, so long as you don't try to change the laws of physics by attempting to stab someone with a flashlight or something like that. Using a weapon with the same technique as empty hands is a more difficult and dangerous undertaking. It can be done, of course, and it brings a special kind of joy to be training and graft a knife into a regular technique and after, think, "wow, if this was real, i would have sliced you up pretty bad man!" :samurai:

Kenpo IS an empty hand art. But kenpo is a weapons art. It is what you make it and you are what it makes you.

Train hard.

[jazkiljok]

Originally posted by Crazy Chihuahua
I have trained with many different types of weapons, both traditional and contemporary, and have found that most weapons of similar size or basic shape can be used interchangably, so long as you don't try to change the laws of physics by attempting to stab someone with a flashlight or something like that. Using a weapon with the same technique as empty hands is a more difficult and dangerous undertaking. It can be done, of course, and it brings a special kind of joy to be training and graft a knife into a regular technique and after, think, "wow, if this was real, i would have sliced you up pretty bad man!" :samurai:

Kenpo IS an empty hand art. But kenpo is a weapons art. It is what you make it and you are what it makes you.

Train hard.

kenpo is an empty hand art. that is suppose to go without saying-- weapons training is just that-- you have no idea what slicing skin or ripping flesh/muscle or thrusting deep into some ones internal organs does to your flow... you have no idea the type of reaction you're going to get when the guy you are stabbing realizes you are going to kill him.

kenpo is not what you make it anymore then math or science is what you make it-- it's got rules, principles, and methodologies passed down throught the ages, tested, retested and refined but NOT ANYTHING you want it to be. And who you are as a person will not be defined by your study of Kenpo (god hopes.)


just my view.

Jaz K.

[Crazy Chihuahua]

Not as a person, but as an artist, for all the reasons you just stated, because there are rules and priciples and methods. But it is adaptable and changable to meet the needs of the user and the situatution, i.e. "tailoring"

[jazkiljok]

Originally posted by Crazy Chihuahua
Not as a person, but as an artist, for all the reasons you just stated, because there are rules and priciples and methods. But it is adaptable and changable to meet the needs of the user and the situatution, i.e. "tailoring"

it's no point in trying to explain your views to me with the yabba yabba kenpospeak -- which is beginning to remind me of those IBM commercials where "fix alls" to business problems come in by way of time machines, fairy dust and genies.

peace

Jaz K.

[Crazy Chihuahua]

I'm sorry if technical terminology offends you. Are you a kenpo practitioner? If not, what art do you study?

Oh, and by the way, if I'm going to kill someone, I don't really care about the reaction he's going to give me, because if I ever decide my opponent has to die in order for me to live, he's dying as quickly as possible, with no reaction if I can help it.

[Sifu DangeRuss]

..."Those who danced were thought to be quite insane....by those who couldn't hear the music..."....

[GouRonin]

Originally posted by Crazy Chihuahua
I have trained with many different types of weapons, both traditional and contemporary, and have found that most weapons of similar size or basic shape can be used interchangably, so long as you don't try to change the laws of physics by attempting to stab someone with a flashlight or something like that. Using a weapon with the same technique as empty hands is a more difficult and dangerous undertaking. It can be done, of course, and it brings a special kind of joy to be training and graft a knife into a regular technique and after, think, "wow, if this was real, i would have sliced you up pretty bad man!" :samurai:
Kenpo IS an empty hand art. But kenpo is a weapons art. It is what you make it and you are what it makes you.
Train hard.

I've seen Kanzen Kenpo's knife work. It's a joke. You guys have no clue and a first year filipino arts practitioner would eat you alive.

EPAK guys know that you have to change the rules when a knife is involved. Somehow you guys left that part out when you re-arranged EPAK.

Luckily there are smart ex-Kanzen guys who are going out and learning knifework outside their system. Something that you guys never did before, go outside your system.

[jazkiljok]

Originally posted by Sifu DangeRuss
..."Those who danced were thought to be quite insane....by those who couldn't hear the music..."....

well then don't let me interrupt your's and crazy c's tango.:D

[Crazy Chihuahua]

Kanzen Kenpo's knife work

Kanzen is not primarily a knife art, so how would you expect me to survive a knife fight with an artist trained in a Fiilipino art based on knifework? He's training almost exclusively with weapons, I only have to be able to use one I've taken from another guy.
A smart fighter tries to avoid an opponent with a weapon anyway, hopefully, I'll never have to take a knife from an attacker and I won't ever have to use our knife techniques. They are based on basic principles of our art, modified JUST ENOUGH to accomodate the weapon, why learn a whole new art for a small part of the whole of your training when you can try to get better at what you already do? I don't understand the go-get-a-black-belt-in-14-different-arts mentality.
And please stop trying to cut down my art because you don't like my instructor, I'm getting really sick of it.

[Kenpomachine]

It's not only the shape and size of the weapon, but its weight. I've never trained with blades, but I have played tennis, and there's a huge difference playing with a raquet or another because of its weight, even though the technique was there and the game was the same... So I can't imagine those little adjustments you are talking about.

My 2 cents

[GouRonin]

This has nothing to do with my personal feelings towards your instructor. The knife work of Kanzen I have seen breaks many rules of knife work. This not your fault. But if you ever get a chance you ought to go check out some knife seminars and apply them to what you know and make the changes needed to make yourself safe.

I agree that kanzen is an empty hand art. I also say that Kanzen guys are a bit ahead of the FMA's in actual physical confrontation weaponless. But if you try and use what you take away from an FMA guy, if you get it away, you'll find yourself in trouble trying to use it. Your basics will get you into trouble.

I put together a police knife and gun defensive tactics seminar last year in town and the guy who came in ate everyone alive with the knife. It's scary.

[Crazy Chihuahua]

If you have any info on upcoming knife seminars in the London area, I'd be interested to hear about them.

[GouRonin]

Zach Whitson, a 6th degree under Huk Planas in Kenpo will be in town this year I believe. He's also a guru in Pekiti Tersia knife arts. He's the guy I brought in. He understand both Kenpo and knife arts and how they can mix. He'll rock your world and make your legs shake.

[Crazy Chihuahua]

keep me posted and hopefully I'll be able to attend.

[D.Cobb]

Originally posted by Kirk
I'm just a purple belt, so I reserve the right to change my opinions after I actually learn something :D

Kirk, my man that is absolutely brilliant.

Can I use it, pleeeeease?

--Dave

:asian: (I'm not worthy!!)

[D.Cobb]

Originally posted by Crazy Chihuahua
Not as a person, but as an artist, for all the reasons you just stated, because there are rules and priciples and methods. But it is adaptable and changable to meet the needs of the user and the situatution, i.e. "tailoring"


Only so long as you stay within the fixed principles and concepts. No matter how much we tailor Kenpo or Kempo to suit our particular preferences, we still have to keep within these guidelines or it just won't work.
--Dave

:asian: