Place of Sanchin

[punisher73]

For those of you that practice Sanchin kata, I was curious as to where you style places it.

I have heard that Sanchin is the root of Okinawan Karate and is the foundation of all other katas, so it is the first one learned.

I have also heard that Sanchin will slow a student down if it is introduced to early, and therefore is the last kata learned.

If your style does practice it, what style and where in the order does it lie?

Also, I would be interested to hear if your style does not incorporate Sanchin, have you done so for your own study (either sanchin or even something similiar like "iron thread" from Hung Gar).

[tshadowchaser]

Sanchin was the 2nd form I learned in my system.
I useualy teach it to students with in the first 6 months of training

If nothing else Sanchin would be the one thing they would be tested on each and every test

now consider that I teach a FMA but my instructors first roots where Okinawan and the forms he learned where also passed on to us

[Live True]

I study Uechi Ryu, an Okinawan form, and this is the first and most important kata. As we learn, "all is within sanchin". For me, at my begginer's stage, this kata teaches rootedness, body coherence, muscle hardening and muscle looseness in movement, and more. It is part of every belt test, from white to black, with nuances determined at each level. I started learning this kata on day one of my training, and it will be part of my first belt test at the end of this month.

I am finding that it creates a moving meditation for me, and helps me center and focus. Recently, because of my pregnancy, my sensei has started to teach me a Goju Ryu version of sanchin, because the difference in breathing and movements may be beneficial.

I'm excited to see what different versions of sanchin will bring to my practice.

[Never_A_Reflection]

My style teaches Sanchin roughly in the middle--you need to learn it for your brown belt (san-kyu). There are variations on the kata as you progress, but the basic Sanchin kata is taught at yon-kyu. We have found that if you teach it too early, it can be too technical and difficult for the student to stick with it, and it can take a very long time to understand the techniques, breathing, and tension. By the same token, if you learn it too late, it will take you a very long time to gain the benefits of practicing the kata, because you may attempt to perform it the way you have been practicing other kata all this time.

[D Dempsey]

When I was doing Gojuryu, it was the second kata I learned after Saifa. We did Sanchin multiple times every class with out fail followed by Tensho.

[Zero]

Like D Dempsy our club pick up the study and practice of Sanchin as the fourth kata, coming after Saifa. I find this is probably the most technically challenging of kata, even harder to appreciate all aspects and master than Suparinpei. In the 'hierachy' of kata, as I said Sanchin comes 4th, but my club is quite open minded in its applications and training and this is often made accessable to junior karateka just starting out. As a foundation point for goju the sooner one starts off with this the better - although I do take the comments that without proper explanation and guidance it could be totally misinterpreted and possibly detrimental to a student's understanding of movement.

[shoshinkan]

Historically (I beleive) sanchin is the fundamental form of the Shorei Ryu (ie Goju/Uechi Ryu) systems.

I train shorin ryu and therefore do not teach sanchin as part of the standard kata at the dojo, however I do train sanchin (a really personal version) myself as an exploritory vehicle working white crane methods.

It may be something I pass on to students but that would happen after shodan, I like them to focus on the core shorin kata (Pinan Sho/Ni, Naihanchi Sho/Ni and Passai) at least till then.

Sanchin certainly represents the foundation of the majority of Southern Chinese arts IMO.

[Dr Rubin Frank Rhode]

Hi Fellow Martial Artists,
I practice Goju Ryu Karate-Do, we practise Sanchin and Tensho after learning the Taikyoku and Gekisai Kata (i.e. the preparatory forms). In some of our Dojos the Saifa Kata is introduced before the Sanchin Kata. Tensho and Seinchin are taught after this. As we adavnce in our practice Sanchin becomes more important, as we sometimes use this as a testing and body conditioning training.Later we learn the Bunkai or application of these Kata (Sanchin and Tensho) in our training. For me the Kata is a personal training and challenge to work hard at perefecting my Karate. I am so grateful for my Teacher Eddie Cave, Sensei 9th Dan who is such a compassionate and hard-task Master Kata Teacher. We are corrected every time we have the opportunity to train with him (ven though we are 4th, 5th, 6th and 7th Dans). Thank you so much for your posting on Sanchin.

Yours in the Spirit of Budo/Wushu

Dr Rubin Frank Rhode, Sensei (Godan)

[twendkata71]

We teach it after the fukyu's, Pinans and naihanchi's The style we teach is similar to Shito ryu, It comes from the Koei kan. Which is a combination of the shuri te and Naha te.

[chinto01]

I pose this question to people who practice sanchin on a regular basis (several times a class or a week). How much power do you use when doing the form? The reason I ask is that there are rumors that if you do this form at full power over a long period of time that it could have some adverse health conditions in the loing run (hemeroids and some stomach issues, even high blood pressure). I know it seems crazy but just wondering if you had heard this as well.

In the spirit of bushido!

Rob

[Victor Smith]

As an Isshinryu stylist Sanchin is the last kata taught before sho-dan examination. The Isshinryu Sanchin is the Miyagi Sanchin, not the Hiagonna Sanchin.

I only teach it full speed with normal breathing. The only purpose for it's practice is to use it to take any sort of attack apart.

I also teach the Uechin Sanchin to my black belts, for a study in the essence of Uechi attack.

[chinto]

For those of you that practice Sanchin kata, I was curious as to where you style places it.

I have heard that Sanchin is the root of Okinawan Karate and is the foundation of all other katas, so it is the first one learned.

I have also heard that Sanchin will slow a student down if it is introduced to early, and therefore is the last kata learned.

If your style does practice it, what style and where in the order does it lie?

Also, I would be interested to hear if your style does not incorporate Sanchin, have you done so for your own study (either sanchin or even something similiar like "iron thread" from Hung Gar).

we are a Shorin ryu system but do teach sanchin and seichin kata at brown belt level.

[Live True]

I pose this question to people who practice sanchin on a regular basis (several times a class or a week). How much power do you use when doing the form? The reason I ask is that there are rumors that if you do this form at full power over a long period of time that it could have some adverse health conditions in the loing run (hemeroids and some stomach issues, even high blood pressure). I know it seems crazy but just wondering if you had heard this as well.

Rob,
Most of what I have found on injuries related to sanchin involves a particular type of breathing. Different schools teach variations on the breathing technique for Sanchin. In most injury type scenarios, the faulty breathing technique involved a bit of a Valsalva breathe (holding your breathe and bearing down while in the most strenous parts of the movement). There is some arguement over whether this is the correct type of breathing (as originally practices in Okinawa) and if the related health issues you mentioned were caused by this breathing or by other environmental factors (nutrition, etc.) of the old masters.

For our part, my club practices a combination of dragon breathing and "dolphin" breathing (continual light breaths that do not mirror the movements and maintain a constant slight inflation of lungs/core). The breaths are not supposed to match the movements, as that makes your movements more predictive. Not all schools agree with this type of breathing or the logic behind it.

My recent reading notes that Uechi Kanei would encourage students to breathe as comes naturally and also to practice Sanchin at various speeds for each practice (slow and relaxed, slow and focus, strongly/focused/fast).

That is one viewpoint, and I hope it helps.

[jim777]

We start it after the taikyoku's and in house katas, at 6th kyu.

jim

[Cirdan]

Sanchin is part of the 1.Dan curriculum at our Wado school. I am not sure if other practicioners of Wado use Sanchin much, but the chinese influence on Karate plays an importent role in the higher levels for us.

[Jai]

We do not teach it as part of our system, and I really wish we did. There has been talk of allowing our black belts to study it as a "bonus" kata of sorts.

[jkembry]

For my style, Uechi-ryu, Sanchin is the kata that is tested at every rank, and to me is the one that provides continuity to the art. My Sensei says "all is in Sanchin", which to me means a consolidation of breathing, strength and posture. Being new at this, I don't think I have ever done this correctly all the way through, but I can say that at times the bits and pieces that I do that are correct, I can feel it. I can also feel when it isn't correct.

Some elements are in other kata such as Kanshiwa and Kanshu. I practice Sanchin at home and mentally in my head during my commute to and from work and find that it seems to get me ready for the day.

While all kata are important in their own way, Sanchin holds a special importance for me.

- Jeff -

[Tae Kwon Dave]

Hy guys!!!
It's possible to find pictures (diagrams, photos) of sanchin no kata?
Thanks a lot!

[jkembry]

Search for "Sanchin Kata" on You will see a variety of styles presented.

[TimoS]

Also, I would be interested to hear if your style does not incorporate Sanchin, have you done so for your own study (either sanchin or even something similiar like "iron thread" from Hung Gar).

Our style doesn't have Sanchin in it and while it might be interesting to learn it, I think that there's already so much stuff to learn in the kata that Seibukan has (5 Pinan, 3 Naifanchi, 2 Fukyu, Seisan, Ananku, Wansu, Passai, Gojushiho, Wanchin, Chinto, Kushanku and Passai-gwa plus Tokumine-no-kon) and especially learning how to really use what in those that I really don't even miss it.
For us I guess the nearest equivalent might be Seisan. It teaches the basics and it is also a good exercise.

[tshadowchaser]

Yes from tha list Seisan would come the closest, and it is a good kata to practice

[Tae Kwon Dave]

Our style doesn't have Sanchin in it and while it might be interesting to learn it, I think that there's already so much stuff to learn in the kata that Seibukan has (5 Pinan, 3 Naifanchi, 2 Fukyu, Seisan, Ananku, Wansu, Passai, Gojushiho, Wanchin, Chinto, Kushanku and Passai-gwa plus Tokumine-no-kon) and especially learning how to really use what in those that I really don't even miss it.
For us I guess the nearest equivalent might be Seisan. It teaches the basics and it is also a good exercise.

Yeah, i think so too...
I study korean karate hyungs (my school is Mudokwan - Tae Kwon Do Korean Karate), the same of japanese shotokan, as you know...but i like to practice them with the canons of J.K.A.
I studied Sanchin no kata as Kyokushin Karate praticioner (i'm 3th kyu)...but Seishan/Hangetsu (Banwol in my school) is a very good alternative.

[wolfeyes2323]

Greetings – I am a practitioner of Okinawan Karate and kobudo,
In Isshin-ryu I was taught that Sanchin is the father, and naihanchi the mother ,
In Goju-ryu I was taught that Sanchin is complemented by Tensho .

Sanchin is the First kata I teach, it is taught after warm-up, and
Is used to establish the breath cycle , focus the mind ,
Invigorate the body, and draw the spirit out .

The second kata I teach is Naihanchi, This is our Shorin-ryu Root,
It embodies the opposite energies , uses snapping and relaxation,
(yin quality) .

Together these kata, form heaven and earth , Man is in the middle.

According to Chojun Miyagi , founder of Goju-ryu
Sanchin , Naihanchi and tensho are a separate class of kata,
They are Kihon, and distinct from all other forms.

These kata in my dojo are preparatory kihon,
They are often repeated later, or if we take a break for water ,
(class has been averaging about 3 hr lately) when we come
Back we perform them once again to focus our minds and
Extablish our breathing.

Toward the end of class we perform Tensho, which I was taught is our
Reward for training hard.

I do not Shime test my students via Sanchin until brown belt, and
Of course I believe it is a mandatory requirement durning a sho-dan test,

IMO it takes a long time to perform Sanchin correctly , and this is why I
Teach it first , I was not taught Sanchin until much later, and
I underwent Shime testing for which I had not had adequate training
For, I think it is a mistake to wait to begin sanchin, students need
The time to grow into it , and become comfortable with it ,
To come to understand it. It is like visiting a Art museum,
You can not fully appreciate each painting (movement) until
You have spent some time observing it , You
Can not fully appreciate a symphony without many listening,
You can not understand or appreciate Sanchin without much practice .

The sooner you start the better, the Quiz or test however will not
Be at the end of class, it will be years in the future, and with
Diligent practice , you will be well prepared and capable of acing it : )

Romney^..^

[wolfeyes2323]

This summer Liu Ching I will be visiting my dojo to teach,
The feeding crane system he teaches also has a Sanchin
Kata, see:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cU5CEfDLHPI
(this video is mislabeled , should be Feeding Crane )

This is quite different than the Goju-ryu or Isshin-ryu version,
But listen to the breathing.

Should be interesting, training with Mr Liu and Kimo Wall
Sensei of Kodokan Goju-ryu Matayoshi Kobudo .

More info and video can be seen at
http://www.kimowall.netfirms.com/liutourposter.htm

This version of sanchin, is actually much more fluid than
Those mentioned above and closer to the Uechi-ryu version
In this regard.
See:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XeHbH8x_Zfo
for Kanei Uechi Uechi ryu version

see:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKvHB6hB5pY&feature=related
for Tatsuo Shimabuku Isshin-ryu version

see:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7nhPx3qurM8
for Goju-ryu version with testing.

Also see
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yla9j0AangU
for related 5 ancestor fist

this is only a sample , Sanchin is a very widely
practiced form in southern Chinese systems,
as well as Okinawan karate, I think where
you teach it depends on your understanding
of what is essential. IMO in karate we
learn what is essential first, and then
take years to perfect it. There is nothing
In karate that is simple or easy, so you
start with what is the most important,
Hence in My Dojo Sanchin.
Romney^..^

[dwaynekrieger]

I actually teach 2 different versions of sanchin. The first Sanchin that I teach I teach at 5th Kyu. I do teach Ibuki Breathing but I teach it properly. So as to massage the liver and not to do any damage. I also teach Ibuki Breathing to children but with a limited force. Even the adult only use about 40% of full power in the breathing and dynamic tension. Really I teach it better than I type it.

The second Sanchin That I teach is a fukien White crane version that I learned that is similar to babulien. It is not done with dynamic tension and uses nogare breathing. I am not sure of the origin of this form but I have studied it extensively for about the last 5 years and I have extrapolated some very good application from it. I think it is from shaking crane as is evident from the hip vibration and shoulder rotation in the form. It is really pretty cool.

[Live True]

It's been a year since I last posted on this topic, and I am fascinated at the change in my sanchin. One, I have a new sensei, and her approach is slightly different from my last teacher. But, at her instruction, I have also approached Sanchin differently.

To the OP, my last sensei had Sanchin as the first Kata taught, and it was tested at each belt test. It was also practiced at almost every class; although, you would not always do the kata all the way trough every time. Sometimes we would take a section of the kata and simply work on those movement.

Currently, my sensei has me practicing Sanchin daily, both as a partial application of the kata, as the full kata, and in three different ways. I am finding new and exciting things about my posture, my movement, my form, etc. in practicing this way. It's really quite exciting!

I practice the opening sequence, opening on each side, wtih dynamic tension several times. Then I go through the kata with slow, full dynamic tension once, in this I am focusing on my targeting and movement of energy and connectedness of body. A second time with medium speed and looseness in movements, where the focus is more on power and visualizing your opponents. Then a final time at full speed and power.

I have begin to see a much stronger sanchin, and I can see how this one kata can continually teach you. It is amazing how just the simple repetition of the opening and hte kata itself has impacted my whole practice and actions.

So much in one place. Until now, I was taking it on faith that Sanchin had a lot to teach. Now, it's like a lightbulb has gone on....
I love it when that happens!

[K-man]

I practice Goju Ryu Karate-Do, we practise Sanchin and Tensho after learning the Taikyoku and Gekisai Kata (i.e. the preparatory forms). In some of our Dojos the Saifa Kata is introduced before the Sanchin Kata. Tensho and Seinchin are taught after this. As we adavnce in our practice Sanchin becomes more important, as we sometimes use this as a testing and body conditioning training.Later we learn the Bunkai or application of these Kata (Sanchin and Tensho) in our training. For me the Kata is a personal training and challenge to work hard at perefecting my Karate.
We also introduce it at this time. However the ibuki breathing aspect is not taught until blackbelt level as there may be potential problems with the breathing if not performed correctly. The following link is a very interesting article including comment by Dr Bill Glasheen. http://www.uechi-ryu.com/breathng.htm
The most importent aspect of Sanchin Kata is its value in developing your centre. The more you perform Sanchin, the greater your centre. :asian:

[wolfeyes2323]

I pose this question to people who practice sanchin on a regular basis (several times a class or a week). How much power do you use when doing the form? The reason I ask is that there are rumors that if you do this form at full power over a long period of time that it could have some adverse health conditions in the loing run (hemeroids and some stomach issues, even high blood pressure). I know it seems crazy but just wondering if you had heard this as well.

In the spirit of bushido!

Rob

You pose some very good questions,
The answer to your question may also answer why
different lineages learn Sanchin at different times.

Sanchin if done incorrectly can have detrimental effects,
there is no doubt about this, if practiced correctly it
is a healthy practice the forges spirit mind and body .

In the civil society in which we live, with our propensity
for obesity and generally unhealthy leaving practices,
Sanchin done incorrectly can be dangerous to the health.

It does stress the body, but this is not unique to karate or sanchin,
if you are fat and out of shape , and you suddenly jump into
a strenuous sport or activity, you are asking for problems,
it is not the fault of the sport or activity, nor the kata sanchin,
it is the fault of the practitioner or his teacher, we should
be reasonably healthy to start the practice of Sanchin,
sanchin done by the unhealthy will not make them healthy,
it will only worsen their conditions.

If we prepare correctly, learning traditional exercises
(hojo undo etc), and are reasonably healthy to begin with
sanchin can be started early in your training,

If you are out of shape , have medical conditions ,
hypertension etc to start with, incorrectly training
sanchin may kill you. (you could have a stroke)

What do I mean incorrectly ?
Sanchin should be started with little or no dynamic tension.
the student should not try and tense anything.
if we try to tense our body, the tension will not be systemic,
we will be tense where we focus or think about, or in those
places that our body normally easily tenses, for instance
the neck, and the anus, over tensing these areas is not
healthy and leads to some of the problems you mention.
Other areas are difficult to tense, (the back over the kidney ,
the inside of the thighs etc) and unless the kata is
done correctly , these areas will remain relaxed and the
tension in your body will be out of wack, (technical terms ah)
this uneven tension is not healthy.

How do you achieve even tension, without thinking about it ?

The tension in sanchin is directly related to correct posture and
correct mechanics ,(as well as breath) to add more dynamic
tension to sanchin we only need to tighten and perfect our posture ,
more mechanically correctly execute the technique, and
correctly coordinate this movement with our breath.
Sounds easy but it is not, that is why you should have a teacher.

There are different areas that control or govern muscles groups in
sanchin, the correct use of these areas are related to correct
posture, the more correct the posture, the more we are using
these muscles, the more we use these muscles the more the
muscles in the areas they govern are used.

The entire sanchin posture is related to aligning the spine ,
the internal organs and breathing correctly
If you wish I could go into this,

But if no one is reading this, I do not wish to waste the time.

If you find value in what I have said and you wish me to continue
please respond.
Romney^..^

[punisher73]

The entire sanchin posture is related to aligning the spine ,
the internal organs and breathing correctly
If you wish I could go into this,

But if no one is reading this, I do not wish to waste the time.

If you find value in what I have said and you wish me to continue
please respond.
Romney^..^


I would very much like to hear/read more about this, please continue and thank you for your input so far.

[Live True]

I too would ask to hear more!