Does anybody practice a difference in the ideal attack between Grasp of Death & Grip of Death (both vs headlocks)?

What factors make a difference between using each of these techniques (other than personal preferance)?

Thanks in advance.

Can you please post the techniques?

The Grasp Of Death
(defense against a left flank side headlock)

With your body bent forward in a headlock and your opponent to
your left applying a headlock with his right arm, initiate your
action by grabbing your opponent's right wrist with your right
hand as your right foot steps forward toward 10:30 into a Close
Kneel Stance (buckling your opponent's right leg). Immediately
grab your opponent's right inner thigh from the rear with your left
hand and pinch the flesh of that leg with a Crab Pinch (between
the poiner finger supported by the middle finger (back up mass)
and the thumb of your left hand) using as much strength as
possible.

As your opponent reacts to your pinch and releases his grip, have
your right hand bring his right arm over your head and down to
your chest, making sure that your right forearm angles diagonally
while acting as a check.

Immediately release the grip of your left hand (pinch) and have
your left foot step forward toward 10:30 into a left Neutral Bow
Stance as you simultaneously strike the back of your opponent's
right elbow with your left forearm while pulling in and toward you
with your right hand. This action should cause your opponent to
step forward with his left foot prior to bending over at the waist.

Roll your left forearm on the back of your opponent's right elbow
until your left forearm is parallel to the ground. Execute a right
Downward Inverted Vertical Punch to the base of your
opponent's skull back of his right mastoid bone.

No cover out is required

---------------------

Grip Of Death
(defense against a left flank right arm headlock)

With your opponent applying a headock from your left side, step
forward and to your left (to 10:30) with your right foot into a right
close kneel stance, while turning your head to the left, and
tucking your chin against your chest. Simultaneously deliver a
right Hammerfist to your opponent's groin, and a left Hammerfist
to your opponent's left kidney.

Circle your left arm over your opponent's right shoulder, and have
the fingers of your left hand press under your opponent's nose
(or, depending upon the circumstances, have your left hand grab
your opponent's hair) to fulcrum your opponent's head back,
using his shoulder as the fulcrum point.

Immediately pivot into a left forward bow toward 6 o'clock to take
advantage of rotational force. In the process, thrust a right heel
palm strike to your opponent's chin. Simultaneously execute a left
sliding check down your opponent's right arm, ending at the
elbow. (Make sure that the head of your opponent, in either of
the above cases, is arched and forced back and down to minimize
your opponent's leverage thus preventing him from executing a
right knee kick to your groin area.)

Pivot back to a left neutral bow and proceed with the routine left
front crossover and double cover out to 10:30.

Originally posted by Handsword
Does anybody practice a difference in the ideal attack between Grasp of Death & Grip of Death (both vs headlocks)?

What factors make a difference between using each of these techniques (other than personal preferance)?

Thanks in advance.

There are many answers to a problem. These tech. address that. You are also "completing" a sandwich catergory with your offset hammer sandwich to the groin and left kidney...:asian:

Thanks- a very concise explanation! I prefer the Grip in my reading, but will have to try both to see what feels natural.

Both techniques work quite well. I think from a practical stand point grip of death is 'quicker' and easier and if I could only teach one that would be it. Grasp of death however I feel (even though it is taught at a lower belt level in our school) teaches more concepts. The 'pinch' teaches pain distraction. How does pinching the inner thigh make the attacker release the hold? His 'mind' goes to that point rather than focusing on retaining his hold. The arm bar teaches the leverage of a straight arm bar, and the way that you 'bar' the leg shows how the opponent loses all strength and mobility when the two opposing bars are used. ( When you are in it and feel it you know how it works) The grasp of death also teaches the mastoid as a target area for a finishing move. The reason I say that I would only teach the grip of death if I could only teach one is because I assume that if I could only teach one it would be because the student wouldn't be with me long enough to truely learn and use the higher concepts.

Oops, I'm sorry, we teach that as you do the arm bar you 'c' pattern your left leg around the attackers right leg and straighten your leg against his knee to 'bar' or 'lock' his leg as you bend him forward into an arm bar. You gotta get your head out of the headlock and be starting the armbar before you start the 'c' pattern though or you can be clothslined backwards onto your but

Oh and we just do a regular old pinch. It ain't about strength. pinch yourself there, just a little old pinch, gauranteed your mind will be on that spot. Thumb and forefinger. Ain't about strength, its about pain distraction and timing. When he grasps you in the headlock make sure you turn your head towards his body to keep pressure off your neck AND grab his hand with your right hand to help keep pressure off you. Soon as the pinch happens pull his hand off as you kinda shrug your shoulders and go into the arm bar and complete the bar using the 'c' pattern to bar his leg and set your weight.

I agree that Grip is "faster" to some extent. I think this stems from Grip being better suited to be used AS the headlock is being applied while Grasp's ideal is after the headlock is secured. That is why Grasp is learned first, it takes less skill and awarenes because you are acting later.

That make sense?

Just a thought here but the difference between the two techniques one is a more controlling type technique and the other is more of a striking technique.

Originally posted by jfarnsworth
Just a thought here but the difference between the two techniques one is a more controlling type technique and the other is more of a striking technique.

Which one do you think of as which? Both seem to mix strikes and "other stuf" to me.

Originally posted by Handsword
Does anybody practice a difference in the ideal attack between Grasp of Death & Grip of Death (both vs headlocks)?

What factors make a difference between using each of these techniques (other than personal preferance)?

Thanks in advance.

One possible way of helping you out: think of a grasp and a grip being different. Think of a grasp as just the right arm and a grip as the left hand locked onto the right wrist. The techniques and why you would do it that way make much more sense to me that way. With both hands locked in I'm not convinced that Grasp would work. Just my thoughts...

Originally posted by headkick
One possible way of helping you out: think of a grasp and a grip being different. Think of a grasp as just the right arm and a grip as the left hand locked onto the right wrist. The techniques and why you would do it that way make much more sense to me that way. With both hands locked in I'm not convinced that Grasp would work. Just my thoughts... Good point

Originally posted by headkick
One possible way of helping you out: think of a grasp and a grip being different. Think of a grasp as just the right arm and a grip as the left hand locked onto the right wrist. The techniques and why you would do it that way make much more sense to me that way. With both hands locked in I'm not convinced that Grasp would work. Just my thoughts... Actually the other way around. The pinch distracts the mind and loosens the hold to allow grasp of death to work, whereas the opponents left arm could protect his groin from the grip of death strike. In either case it would sort of depend on how 'upright' the attacker was as to which technique would be easier. A more upright opponent would be more suceptable to grip of death and one that was crouching down in a semi-squat would be more of a canidate for the grasp O D. That just occurred to me, what do you think?

Originally posted by Elfan
Which one do you think of as which? Both seem to mix strikes and "other stuf" to me.

The Grasp of Death - I look at as a control technique. When taking their arm across your leg and pin it there. Yes you do a strike but from here you could easily buckle the right leg with your left leg, or right knee to the face, take the attacker over to their left side by buckling then tripping them over with your left foot behind and side of their left foot and then right stomp on their left knee, or match the hand position on their right hand with both of yours and execute Kotogiesh, etc.

Grip of Death - I look at as a striking technique. You get sandwhiching effects with the hammerfist strikes, leg checks, you could finish with Escape from Death, follow up with other extension variations. etc.

This is just my take on the two techniques. Mine and my views only.:asian:

Originally posted by headkick
One possible way of helping you out: think of a grasp and a grip being different. Think of a grasp as just the right arm and a grip as the left hand locked onto the right wrist. The techniques and why you would do it that way make much more sense to me that way. With both hands locked in I'm not convinced that Grasp would work. Just my thoughts...

Make sense to me. Thank you - this is just the sort of idea I was looking for.

I find that the initial move in Grasp relys on pain compliance, which is not always a good thing when drugs, adrenaline, anger & raw strength are thrown into the mix. Therefore, using this technique against a single-arm headlock gives it a much better chance.

Thanks for the clarification jfarnsworth. I see what you mean now.

I use both techniques as true headlocks utilizing both hands.

On Grasp of Death I sometimes use as a "What-If" - the opponent is pulling you forward ie. trying to ram your head into a bar or fireplug (just to keep it interesting), you can see how the knee and left hand strike all of a sudden gain in priority.

In Grip of Death, a "What-It" is more the grappler attack, dragging you in front of him as he starts to turn counter-clockwise attempting to take you down to the ground.

It just allows us to play with the principles and concepts that are within the technique intended to prevent this.

Oss,
-Michael
Kenpo-Texas.com (http://kenpo-texas.com)

Originally posted by GaryM
... A more upright opponent would be more suceptable to grip of death and one that was crouching down in a semi-squat would be more of a canidate for the grasp O D. That just occurred to me, what do you think?

Yep, I agree with this too.

I don't see the attack as different, but the response will be determined by different relative positions. The attacker will tell you what reply is needed. Real combat is not a static situation so one could find themselves doing both techniques (ie. start the pincer and switching to grip of death if the opponent doesn't respond.)

This is a good place to try sensitivity training (Kenpo style not new age style.) Pratice applying headlocks from diffierent angles, with different force and with different intent and try doing the techniques. With practice you will start to do the most appropriate technique because it feels right. (sort of like in sparring when your punch finds the open target and you were not really aware of choosing a target.)

Its my understanding that the early Parker guys Dave Hebler, Rainer Schulte, etc. etc. took attacks and then worked variations on the responses till it was automatic and idiosyncratic.

"Any technique that relies on pain to work is doomed to fail." - Ed Parker

Question; what happens if the pinch doesn't work?

A question you should answer now and not later.

I execute this as a thumb "jab" to the hollow of the knee. As their knee drops I don't lose anytime when bringing my arm up to secure the arm bar/lock.

Originally posted by jfarnsworth
I execute this as a thumb "jab" to the hollow of the knee. As their knee drops I don't lose anytime when bringing my arm up to secure the arm bar/lock.

Well sir, I could repeat my question but I think that it is obvious it hasn't been addressed. What bothers me is the "assumption" this will automatically work. Finding the "sweet spot" under the stress of attack is not easy and this particular "point" is more difficult than most.

What happens when ....

Originally posted by Doc
What bothers me is the "assumption" this will automatically work. Finding the "sweet spot" under the stress of attack is not easy and this particular "point" is more difficult than most.

What happens when ....


Agreed! :asian: This is why I don't attempt to use the "pinch or bite". The thumb jab (as I call it) has always worked for me personally. I'm much too small to hope that I can get my hand in such a position to "find" the right spot.

Originally posted by jfarnsworth
Agreed! :asian: This is why I don't attempt to use the "pinch or bite". The thumb jab (as I call it) has always worked for me personally. I'm much too small to hope that I can get my hand in such a position to "find" the right spot.

Your honor, could you please direct the witness to answer the question?

You are placing your actual survival on this "thumb jab" to the back of the knee, while someone has you in a position that has the potential to cause your death.

I repeat: What happens when it doesn't work? This has to be a consideration.

Originally posted by Doc
Your honor, could you please direct the witness to answer the question?

:rolleyes: Ok, now I see where your going with this. It's my mistake I thought that you were speaking with someone else. :asian:

As of this present time I personally have never been attacked on the street in this type of situation. Only in a classroom situation have I been through this technique. The thumb jab has always worked for me. By placing my thumb in the hollow of the knee and driving it downward or downward diagonal (depending on position).

Now if I were to say IF I had to use this in street situation I'd probably strike the groin from behind with my left hand instead. Using an open palm face up or a reverse hammerfist. If this didn't work then at this point I would try a sacrifice throw by using the attacker as my breakfall. This is by still counter grabbing their right wrist with my right hand, putting my hand in the groin, then throwing towards my back landing on the attacker. Since I believe you stated somewhere on here you wrestled previously I consider this a modified "Peterson Roll". :asian:

Originally posted by jfarnsworth
:rolleyes: Ok, now I see where your going with this. It's my mistake I thought that you were speaking with someone else. :asian:

As of this present time I personally have never been attacked on the street in this type of situation. Only in a classroom situation have I been through this technique. The thumb jab has always worked for me. By placing my thumb in the hollow of the knee and driving it downward or downward diagonal (depending on position).

Now if I were to say IF I had to use this in street situation I'd probably strike the groin from behind with my left hand instead. Using an open palm face up or a reverse hammerfist. If this didn't work then at this point I would try a sacrifice throw by using the attacker as my breakfall. This is by still counter grabbing their right wrist with my right hand, putting my hand in the groin, then throwing towards my back landing on the attacker. Since I believe you stated somewhere on here you wrestled previously I consider this a modified "Peterson Roll". :asian:

So I guess you would use a grappling counter to a grapple assault.

"If you get in the water with a shark, he'll bite you no matter how good a swimmer you are." - Ed Parker

Originally posted by Doc
"If you get in the water with a shark, he'll bite you no matter how good a swimmer you are." - Ed Parker

Sir, I am only as good as my abilities will let me be. Anything I put up on this board is by personal experience and thought. I try not to post about anything I don't know and talk tough about it. I'm just not that way. I'm a guy trying to struggle to become a better marital artist. :asian:

If I may ask what would you suggest for this scenario?:asian: :asian:

Originally posted by jfarnsworth
Sir, I am only as good as my abilities will let me be. Anything I put up on this board is by personal experience and thought. I try not to post about anything I don't know and talk tough about it. I'm just not that way. I'm a guy trying to struggle to become a better marital artist. :asian:

Of course you are and I am only trying to make you think, nothing more. My point to ponder is this: If your ultimate solution is to resort to a "grappling counter," when someone is attempting to take you down, you have to consider he may be the shark whose water you're getting into.

The interpretation of this technique I was taught is completely different from anything I've seen others do. Mr. Parker worked on body mechanics to preclude the takedown through Positive Body Posture and Anatomical Restrictive Body Positioning that we also used in law enforcemnt scenarios. We addressed more of the takedown in "Grip of Death" but still different.

Okay Doc now that you have grilled Jason, but you stilled didn't answer his question. What is the answer to your own question. Jason at least deserves and an answer since you tried to make him look bad.

Originally posted by molson
Okay Doc now that you have grilled Jason, but you stilled didn't answer his question. What is the answer to your own question. Jason at least deserves and an answer since you tried to make him look bad.

As much as I appreciate your third party interpretation of the interaction, ultimately I think Jason should be the one to decide if "I was trying to make him look bad."

That being said, I always thought as a teacher, (which I am in Kenpo as well as college) is supposed to solicit thought in students, not just throw out information with no regard to whether they are actually learning something. These exchanges force students to examine their positions, justify them through self examination and occasional discovery. Most posters know this is my "style" of interaction and I'm sorry you misinterpreted it. I would think as a 2nd black in Kenpo perhaps you could assist in the process and propose and answer yourself.

One final note: If you think I was trying to make Jason look bad, you would definitely not have liked taking serious lessons from Ed Parker.

By the way I did answer MY questions.

Doc,

That aside, I really liked the "Shark" analogy. I had not heard it since the mid 80's and it brought a smile to my face. Sincerely, Thanks!!

I was thinking the same thing actually, but did not think of the analogy. We never Box a boxer, try to grapple with a grappler, or out kick a kicker. It is not because we cannot ... it is because it is because we know better. If not then we are not using the best weapon we have! Our brain! This is just not a smart fight.

Back to Grasp of Death -

THE PROBLEM: Striking to the groin, pinching the inside of the leg, or utilizing the "horse bite" (yes I can seperate muscle tissue there, before anyone asks) which causes the opponent to bend forward: What is wrong with this picture? Their arm is still around your neck and you are going down with their weight on your back or neck. [Doc, is this "negative body posture?]

THE REMEDY: The remedy built into the technique is the simultaineous right leg buckle with your left knee, either in a right close kneel as you step forward with your right leg (my favorite), or the ideal - the same buckle utilizing a right wide kneel stance, while you strke with the left hand. Don't forget the turning of the head, anchoring the elbow after your right arm grabs their right wrist. We still have to breath.

The simultaineous reactions from the groin, inner thigh attack and the buckle cause more of a buckling down and back, opening targets to ideal or variable response patterns. [Doc, would this opening be creating positive body posture?]

Wheeeee!!! Then it gets interesting with all sorts of strikes, or several different Contact Manipulations (if you don't like the Crossing Talons arm bar there are many others.)

The main thing I want is their weight off my neck and back. The technique is designed to immediatly alleviate this and allow completion of the Ideal, or it opens you to Variable Expansion as your level of expertise allows.

There, I gave an answer ... it may not be Docs, but it is an answer. Think of answers as starting points, now see where YOU take it. Remember, the Ideal Phase works!!! For all the techniques! If it does not, maybe you need to search out an instructor with a little more depth of understanding. Lord knows, not me ... I am talking about people like Dennis Conatser, Ron Chapel, Bob Liles, John Sepulveda, Sibok Tom Kelly, Paul Mills, Mike Pick, Bryan Hawkins, Tommy Burks etc. I remain a student, maybe a little more advanced, but still a very serious student. Hopefully for the rest of my life.

By the way, Life is too short for this sniping and beating around the bush. Ask the question, accept the answer or don't! Give the answer, or don't. It is OK to say, "You are not my student and I am not giving this stuff away." We all know that is how most of the "Seniors", and "New Generation of Seniors" earn a living. But hey, go ahead and say it. Tell us when the next seminar is you are teaching. We would love to attend and support you that way, even if we can't afford the trips to become a direct student, or if we have loyalty to our current instructors which will not allow us to switch horses in mid stream.

Respectfully (with a little ironical tilt on the end),

-Michael
Kenpo-Texas.com (http://kenpo-texas.com)

Originally posted by Doc
...ultimately I think Jason should be the one to decide if "I was trying to make him look bad."

I didn't take any of Dr. Chapel's posts as a negative towards me at all. I believe he was trying to make me think for myself and come up with my own answers instead of just handing out info.. Thanks for the concern but I will still be looking into the answers he may have been looking for.:asian:





p.s. Kenpodoc I sent you a private message.

Originally posted by Michael Billings
[B]
Back to Grasp of Death -

THE PROBLEM: Striking to the groin, pinching the inside of the leg, or utilizing the "horse bite" (yes I can seperate muscle tissue there, before anyone asks) which causes the opponent to bend forward: What is wrong with this picture? Their arm is still around your neck and you are going down with their weight on your back or neck. [Doc, is this "negative body posture?]


Yes, for you if you allow him to get you there. Positive for him.


THE REMEDY: The remedy built into the technique is the simultaineous right leg buckle with your left knee, either in a right close kneel as you step forward with your right leg (my favorite), or the ideal - the same buckle utilizing a right wide kneel stance, while you strke with the left hand. Don't forget the turning of the head, anchoring the elbow after your right arm grabs their right wrist. We still have to
breath.

I'm afraid that is not what I worked on with The Kenpo Kahuna. I told you the philosophy is completely different.

The simultaineous reactions from the groin, inner thigh attack and the buckle cause more of a buckling down and back, opening targets to ideal or variable response patterns. [Doc, would this opening be creating positive body posture?]

The methodology you describe is not capable of creating Positive Body Posture because of the way the body's are entwined creating "Paired Rythm."

Wheeeee!!! Then it gets interesting with all sorts of strikes, or several different Contact Manipulations (if you don't like the Crossing Talons arm bar there are many others.)

You are having waaaay tooo much fun.

The main thing I want is their weight off my neck and back. The technique is designed to immediatly alleviate this and allow completion of the Ideal, or it opens you to Variable Expansion as your level of expertise allows.

Good "Motion-Speak." How ever still dependent on an application of pain therefore doomed to inevitable failure but can work on many ocassions.

There, I gave an answer ... it may not be Docs, but it is an answer. Think of answers as starting points, now see where YOU take it. Remember, the Ideal Phase works!!! For all the techniques!

Absolutely right.

If it does not, maybe you need to search out an instructor with a little more depth of understanding.

Right again. If your teacher cannot give you something that works you both are in trouble.

By the way, Life is too short for this sniping and beating around the bush. Ask the question, accept the answer or don't!

Many don't want to be seen as not having the answer, especially a 3rd black. ;)

Give the answer, or don't. It is OK to say, "You are not my student and I am not giving this stuff away." We all know that is how most of the "Seniors", and "New Generation of Seniors" earn a living.

I wish I did make a living. Anyway I always have answers for those that will really listen. But I must admit when someone snipes me to answer someone elses question so they can get the answer because they won't ask for themselves, I balk a bit.

For the record Jason is already working on the answer that I provided him. We will work it out.

Any questions? Keep in mind most work from "motion" concepts, and I do not. I was taught to work from an "Anatomical Philosophy" which is completely different and negates most of the conceptual leanings of the commercial Kenpo.

Originally posted by Doc
For the record Jason is already working on the answer that I provided him. We will work it out.

Sir,
I thank for that as well. It's giving me a little trouble and need just a little more time to get the "feel" of what your describing. It's kind of hard without an actual partner my size to be working on.:asian: I'm working on it though.