Nia Abdullah VS. Dianna Lopez

[terryl965]

Before everybody goes off this is the actual fight, I know hands down and stuff but the tragity is simple Nia beat Dianna and yet the official at USAT gave it to her for the publicity of all three brothers and sister making the Olympic games.

Watch for yourself you wii see Nia hit Dianna in the head on three seperate occasion and never got a point for it and finally lost 0-1 in overtime.

Nia vs. Diana: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQIeqWLispk

[IcemanSK]

Ok, I don't care who gets on the Olympic team. But that was robbery! Nia had 3 head shots & more than a few legit trunk kicks to score. To be fair, Diana had a few body shots that should have scored too. It was still Nia's fight:although quite a boring fight. IMO

[exile]

And then people wonder why so many of us regard the Olympic manifestation of TKD, whether in Korea or in the US, as as corrupt and rigged as Olympic figure skating... :rolleyes:

Every time something like this happens, it just give those hostile to the dilution of TKD into a martial sport/spectacle another weapon to use against the credibility of the WTF and its branch plants.

[IcemanSK]

And then people wonder why so many of us regard the Olympic manifestation of TKD, whether in Korea or in the US, as as corrupt and rigged as Olympic figure skating... :rolleyes:

Every time something like this happens, it just give those hostile to the dilution of TKD into a martial sport/spectacle another weapon to use against the credibility of the WTF and its branch plants.

I know folks may say it's too fine a distinction, but it's one of the reasons I say I'm affiliated with the Kukkiwon: rather than the WTF.

[exile]

I know folks may say it's too fine a distinction, but it's one of the reasons I say I'm affiliated with the Kukkiwon: rather than the WTF.

No, it's definitely an important and real distinction. I have the strong suspicion that the KKW's technical agenda is closely tied to Olympic sport considerations, and that their treatment of hyungs in particular is guided with at least on eye on the 'martial spectacle' aspect... but they are definitely quite different orgs and the KKW is definitely at one arm's length remove from the incredibly dishonest vote-trading/vote-buying/full-scale bribery and shakedown artistry of Olympic affiliated sport.

[terryl965]

I agree the fight was boring as hell and Nia had her beat, I too really do not care except from the standpoint of fair play which once again has proven the field of play is not fair. Nia is the past silver medalist but yet she gets treated as if she is a bum, roght now I feel sorry for the sport and for fair play.

[Laurentkd]

wow, that is one of the poorest examples of judging I have ever seen.
WOW!
Like Master Stoker said, I just feel bad for Nia.
very sad...

[IcemanSK]

I heard from someone who was there & watched the fight. She had the same thoughts. She also said, Chris Martinez handed the win to Mark Lopez. Neither his coach, nor Jean were in their fighter's corner. A "gentlemen's agreement" it seems.

Some might say the story of all 4 Lopez's representing the US is good for sport. I can't see how when it blows their integrity.

[terryl965]

I heard from someone who was there & watched the fight. She had the same thoughts. She also said, Chris Martinez handed the win to Mark Lopez. Neither his coach, nor Jean were in their fighter's corner. A "gentlemen's agreement" it seems.

Some might say the story of all 4 Lopez's representing the US is good for sport. I can't see how when it blows their integrity.


Chtis just let Mark win plain and simple, this young man gave up a chance of a lifetime for his buddy and coach. I guess I do not understand! One of my friends was there and said the crowd was booing and sayinf and yelling cheets and cheaters. All I can say is this has set us back fifty years,

[exile]

Chtis just let Mark win plain and simple, this young man gave up a chance of a lifetime for his buddy and coach. I guess I do not understand! One of my friends was there and said the crowd was booing and sayinf and yelling cheets and cheaters. All I can say is this has set us back fifty years,

At this rate, Olympic TKD is going to catch up with pro wrestling by the next Olympics!

[terryl965]

Just for the record I have heard though the grapevine that Nia is going to file to see if she can get the decission over turned. Do not know id it is true or not.

This was the worst yet by USAT and the injustice will carry a cloud over the sport for years to come.

[exile]

Just for the record I have heard though the grapevine that Nia is going to fill to see if she can get the decission over turned. Do not know id it is true or not.

This was the worst yet by USAT and the injustice will carry a cloud over the sport for years to come.

Best of luck to her... those guys are completely, utterly without any shame at all, it seems.

[Makalakumu]

Does anyone on the Olympic team have a chance to medal? If not, maybe they just need something to promote the sport?

[terryl965]

Does anyone on the Olympic team have a chance to medal? If not, maybe they just need something to promote the sport?

Steven the elder has won gold the last two Olympics and alot of people are saying he is getting a bit low. Nia won Silver and was probaly are best chance, USAT wanted all the sibling together for promotional reasons here in the US, the last time there was three familt members in the same Olympic was around 1908 I believe. We may not even come home with any this year, at anyrate what ever appens and you goes they are our Olympic athletes and need to be treated like one. I tis not Dianna fault what the refs. did or did not call during the match.

[Tez3]

I really mean this respectfully so please don't take this the wrong way but to me that's not fighting or even sparring. it's bouncing up and down then something then bouncing up and down! I've seen plenty of TKD people sparring and it's much as I have done in karate, kicks and punches etc, full contact, with KOs. I know they are very skilful but it looks like a game they are playing not martial arts.

[IcemanSK]

I really mean this respectfully so please don't take this the wrong way but to me that's not fighting or even sparring. it's bouncing up and down then something then bouncing up and down! I've seen plenty of TKD people sparring and it's much as I have done in karate, kicks and punches etc, full contact, with KOs. I know they are very skilful but it looks like a game they are playing not martial arts.

This was a really weak match (I won't call it a fight). Olympic style is often more exciting that that!

[Tez3]

This was a really weak match (I won't call it a fight). Olympic style is often more exciting that that!


What's with the arms down by the side though? No guard? surely it should be continuous?

[IcemanSK]

What's with the arms down by the side though? No guard? surely it should be continuous?

I have no explaination of that.

[Makalakumu]

The hands down sparring is just a response to the particular rules of Olympic TKD sparring. So is the way that both competitors were sparring. It's just a game, not a fight. The competitor that understands the rules the best and develops their skills within that paradigm is the one that is going to be the most successful.

With that being said, yes it was a boring match, but there was a major mental game going on between the two fighters. Lots of working for position and trying to out fake the other fighter. Anyway, I don't think you can totally dismiss these two...

[tkd1964]

By 2012, you will see TKD out and Karate in.

[Tez3]

The hands down sparring is just a response to the particular rules of Olympic TKD sparring. So is the way that both competitors were sparring. It's just a game, not a fight. The competitor that understands the rules the best and develops their skills within that paradigm is the one that is going to be the most successful.

With that being said, yes it was a boring match, but there was a major mental game going on between the two fighters. Lots of working for position and trying to out fake the other fighter. Anyway, I don't think you can totally dismiss these two...


I wouldn't dismiss them of course but I like my fighting more gutsy, more in yer face lol! it's a bit dainty for me :)

[exile]

In the WTF-rules competition I've seen at tournaments, people almost never have their hands up. Quick movements, in and out; lots of faking and feinting; lots of evasion and counterkicking. But almost never a guard. As UpN says, it's just what happens when you set up the point-scoring a certain way.

And what's interesting is that I've seen some karate competition that looked very similar, in just that way.

[terryl965]

By 2012, you will see TKD out and Karate in.

No that will not happen, what you will see in the next couple of years is bringing the hands back into play and allowing hand shots to the head. This is what is needed to keep it going.

On to Tez question this is a game they are playing and most players are counter fighters which means you keep your hands down and than re-act to there movements.

I am not abig fan of keeping there hands down at anytime.

[terryl965]

In the WTF-rules competition I've seen at tournaments, people almost never have their hands up. Quick movements, in and out; lots of faking and feinting; lots of evasion and counterkicking. But almost never a guard. As UpN says, it's just what happens when you set up the point-scoring a certain way.

And what's interesting is that I've seen some karate competition that looked very similar, in just that way.


I guess my way of teaching is different than other Olympic style of fighting we drill our students to keep there gaurds up and to attack, this always throw there opponet into I do not know type of mode. I guess that is why we win alot.

[exile]

I guess my way of teaching is different than other Olympic style of fighting we drill our students to keep there gaurds up and to attack, this always throw there opponet into I do not know type of mode. I guess that is why we win alot.

Makes sense to me, Terry. Head shots with the hand and so on also do—anything that reintroduces some relation to an actual fight, for heaven's sake! But we seem to be approaching a watershed, a real parting of the ways... I dunno, maybe the Abdullah/Lopez debâcle will help push things to some kind of resolution along those lines.

[terryl965]

Makes sense to me, Terry. Head shots with the hand and so on also do—anything that reintroduces some relation to an actual fight, for heaven's sake! But we seem to be approaching a watershed, a real parting of the ways... I dunno, maybe the Abdullah/Lopez debâcle will help push things to some kind of resolution along those lines.

I think USAT has alot of question to answer to there membership and the IOC at this point. I hope this will further make people relize that we should be bringing real TKD back to the Olympics and not a game like this.

[exile]

I think USAT has alot of question to answer to there membership and the IOC at this point. I hope this will further make people relize that we should be bringing real TKD back to the Olympics and not a game like this.

If that happens, no one will be happier than me (well, OK, maybe a few people will be, but I'll still be very happy! :)) But it will involve a radical about-face on the American org's part (and, ultimately, the Korean central command of the WTF). A lot of people have a lot at stake on promoting the status quo, no matter how negative the spinoff effects.

[terryl965]

If that happens, no one will be happier than me (well, OK, maybe a few people will be, but I'll still be very happy! :)) But it will involve a radical about-face on the American org's part (and, ultimately, the Korean central command of the WTF). A lot of people have a lot at stake on promoting the status quo, no matter how negative the spinoff effects.

Without it being an Olympic event they will loose alot more change must be grasp and welcome to preserve the outcome. I know I will be behind the movement as well, either by supporting or starting the movement with some other people. It is time that a change is made one way or the other.

[exile]

Without it being an Olympic event they will loose alot more change must be grasp and welcome to preserve the outcome. I know I will be behind the movement as well, either by supporting or starting the movement with some other people. It is time that a change is made one way or the other.

Yes. We—many of us—are waiting, trying to be patient, for this to happen. Please, let it be soon...

[terryl965]

Yes. We—many of us—are waiting, trying to be patient, for this to happen. Please, let it be soon...

I agree, I have ben on the band wagon for a couple of years. I keep hearing the rumble but no results have been made.

[mango.man]

Here are the other 2 fights from this past weekend that determined the 2008 US Olympic TKD Team:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LH2qctrpTC8 (Mark Lopez v Chris Martinez)

And by far the best fight of the 3 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDbsa7QEE3Q (Charlotte Craig v Anees Hassain)

[Makalakumu]

Since when do the competitors start calling points...

[trojanhorse]

I have reviewed the video. I am sadden by what I see... First and foremost the Lopezs are outstanding athletes and individuals. I have seen them practice,compete, and teach; they are truely amazing world class champions. I don't know much about Nia(good stuff), thanks to the media.
The video (can't be used as evidence USArules) clearly show the judges were not going to award body points to Nia. Head kicks are discresionary, this is not AAU, making contact to the head is not a point. Diana tacticly fell down to avoid the full impact of the head kick(s), should of had multiple point deductions, though. If we disregard the entire 3 rounds, then Diana won SD with a RRH. Even Diana's point is questionable though, the other two judge's vision would have been obstructed, they could have only scored because of subjective influence. I doubt you can get all 4 judges to conspire, but the computer scoring records would shed some light on who was more motivated to help the cause.
This is my first blog, sorry for the long runons, but I was finally motivated to speak by the realization that Nia and Chris's commitment of 4 years, and be violated by the sport they dedicate their lives to. For the integrity of the USA and TKD, there needs to be a change(safeguard) to the subjective scoring and influence of us humans(greedy)!
I realized Jean the US coach was human when he claimed on camera, that " he is the US coach first and brother second" saddly this is called conflict of interest

[terryl965]

I have reviewed the video. I am sadden by what I see... First and foremost the Lopezs are outstanding athletes and individuals. I have seen them practice,compete, and teach; they are truely amazing world class champions. I don't know much about Nia(good stuff), thanks to the media.
The video (can't be used as evidence USArules) clearly show the judges were not going to award body points to Nia. Head kicks are discresionary, this is not AAU, making contact to the head is not a point. Diana tacticly fell down to avoid the full impact of the head kick(s), should of had multiple point deductions, though. If we disregard the entire 3 rounds, then Diana won SD with a RRH. Even Diana's point is questionable though, the other two judge's vision would have been obstructed, they could have only scored because of subjective influence. I doubt you can get all 4 judges to conspire, but the computer scoring records would shed some light on who was more motivated to help the cause.
This is my first blog, sorry for the long runons, but I was finally motivated to speak by the realization that Nia and Chris's commitment of 4 years, and be violated by the sport they dedicate their lives to. For the integrity of the USA and TKD, there needs to be a change(safeguard) to the subjective scoring and influence of us humans(greedy)!
I realized Jean the US coach was human when he claimed on camera, that " he is the US coach first and brother second" saddly this is called conflict of interest

First off welcome and now on to some points of interest here, the last head shot in round three knock Diana to the side and was full contract with that being said Nia won the match 2-0. If the refereee's would gave penalty points for falling and avoiding the fight Nia wins 3-0. Anyway you cut it Nia dominated the match and was clearly the aggressor thoughout the match. Dianna last kick was to the upper arm and should have never been.

I love the Lopez and they are great athletes no question about it, Nia is a great athlete as well, she is the defending Silver medalist from 2004 and should be given some type of respect from that alone. I cannot say what was going though the corner refs. minds but I will say they was not watching the same match. I agree changes need to be made so things like this does not happen.

[Tez3]

I can't see from the video but what is the configuration for judges and refs?
In karate we had four judges one each corner of the mat and two referees.

[terryl965]

I can't see from the video but what is the configuration for judges and refs?
In karate we had four judges one each corner of the mat and two referees.

We have four corner judges scoring the match and one center ref.

[Tez3]

We have four corner judges scoring the match and one center ref.

Thanks for that. :)

[trojanhorse]

I have just reviewed Chris and Mark's match. It was a good match. I know Chris personally, he is the toughest competitor around, mentally and physically. The judging appeared fair, there might have been different judges for this match. Chris has been training and living for this moment for at least eight years and to suggest they threw the fight, g- agreement, is not a rational thought. Thanks for the welcome,terryl965

[terryl965]

Hello trojanhorse I can see your are from Houston, where do you train. I know alot of people down there and instructors.

Chris had a great match and so did Charlotte, like I said I do not believe Dianna did anything wrong, but the scoring was skeptical at best. Who knows maybe we know each other?

[terryl965]

Thanks for that. :)

You are welcome :asian:

[trojanhorse]

terrly965,
The name trojanhorse should answer your ? on my local...:)

[terryl965]

terrly965,
The name trojanhorse should answer your ? on my local...:)

I do not know what that means, I am sending you a pm.
Thanks I am brain dead.

[mango.man]

I hate to say I told you so, but Pay particular attenetion to posts 7 - 9 in this thread: http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=49383

[terryl965]

I hate to say I told you so, but Pay particular attenetion to posts 7 - 9 in this thread: http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=49383


Yes I remember that thread between you and me, I do want to point out Nia did go out and beat Diana or at least what I saw from the Video but the judges make the final call and they did the USAT and the Olympic dream a dis justice by there action in Des Moines this past weekend. Diana did her part by getting the one point in overtime and she is going to go and we need to be behind her efforts and that is that. Whether I or you or anybody else like it.

By the way Mango.man good call back then.

[mango.man]

Adding insult to injury, Diana has been named as USA Today's Olympic Athlete of the Week http://www.usatoday.com/sports/olympics/2008-04-08-lopez-athlete-of-week_N.htm

[terryl965]

Adding insult to injury, Diana has been named as USA Today's Olympic Athlete of the Week http://www.usatoday.com/sports/olympics/2008-04-08-lopez-athlete-of-week_N.htm


Man what can you say, Not even a mention for Charlotte, it is all about the three. It would be nice to see Charlotte be the only one who comes home with a medal.

[mango.man]

As a huge fan of Charlotte (She has put a whopping on my Samantha several times in recent years) I gotta agree. It seems her story will be overlooked in Beijing.

[FearlessFreep]

In looking at all this, the question that comes to mind is

1) For parents, is this a course you would recommend to your kids?
2) For instructors, is this a course you would recommend for your students?

What I mean by that... given the some capricious nature of scoring in the world of TKD Olympic sparring (not just in this instance as it is a story I often hear) is this something you would encourage your students to do... not just sparring in this style but pursuing a 'career' of it?

How much does your view of what "Tae Kwon Do" is? Does a serious athletic pursuit of this style of competition cross or mesh with your view of Tae Kwon Do training

[terryl965]

As a huge fan of Charlotte (She has put a whopping on my Samantha several times in recent years) I gotta agree. It seems her story will be overlooked in Beijing.

I remember Samantha is a great athlete as well, Charlotte will be over look and that is to bad, she has trained just as hard as the rest and has devoted her life to TKD just like them but does not have the name.

[terryl965]

In looking at all this, the question that comes to mind is

1) For parents, is this a course you would recommend to your kids?
2) For instructors, is this a course you would recommend for your students?

What I mean by that... given the some capricious nature of scoring in the world of TKD Olympic sparring (not just in this instance as it is a story I often hear) is this something you would encourage your students to do... not just sparring in this style but pursuing a 'career' of it?

How much does your view of what "Tae Kwon Do" is? Does a serious athletic pursuit of this style of competition cross or mesh with your view of Tae Kwon Do training

As an instructor we are more traditional with are training, that does not mean one cannot become effeant at playing the game. I encourage my student to be truthful for thenself and there action. One of my student knew he got beat and handed the gold to the other player and ask for the silver the ref. told him he won the match 5-2 and his response was I was in there and he dominated me so I did not win. All the refs. in the ring stood and applaud him for the courage to do what he believe to be right, as for me all I said was you have learn well and I thank you.

[mango.man]

In looking at all this, the question that comes to mind is

1) For parents, is this a course you would recommend to your kids?


USAT is THE ONLY avenue to the Olympic Games. Unless that changes, and as long as my kid has dreams (realistic or not) of being a TKD Olympian than we have no choice.

[terryl965]

USAT is THE ONLY avenue to the Olympic Games. Unless that changes, and as long as my kid has dreams (realistic or not) of being a TKD Olympian than we have no choice.

Exactly your Samantha and my Zachary both have dreams for the Olympics whether it ever comes or not is one thing but the dream is always there for them and we must all have dreams.

[exile]

In looking at all this, the question that comes to mind is

1) For parents, is this a course you would recommend to your kids?
2) For instructors, is this a course you would recommend for your students?

What I mean by that... given the some capricious nature of scoring in the world of TKD Olympic sparring (not just in this instance as it is a story I often hear) is this something you would encourage your students to do... not just sparring in this style but pursuing a 'career' of it?

No. Never. If someone I know wants to do it, fine; I wouldn't try to dissuade them. But to me, the Olympics represent the kiss of death to any practical combat system.


Does a serious athletic pursuit of this style of competition cross or mesh with your view of Tae Kwon Do training?

Not even a little... no, it's worse than that. My view of TKD represents one pole, Olympic sparring the other, and the two are not just mutually incompatible but antagonistic. Again, that's just me. But no, no, no.

[FearlessFreep]

With all respect to MM and Master Terry, in their goals for their children, I find myself more of a mind with exile

[IcemanSK]

On a practical level, speaking as an instructor, I'm not an Olympic-style guy. If my student wants that, I'll send them somewhere else.

In the 80's, there was a student who wanted to fight full contact kickboxing. Our instructor was no more equipped to train him that way than the man in the moon. He conned this student into believing that he could train him for it. In the process, he broke this guy's ribs during training. Not all instructors can teach everything. As Clint Eastwood said, "A man's gotta know his limitations.

[mango.man]

No disrespect taken FF. I understand the difference between sport TKD and martial art TKD. I don't think I have ever seen you bashing sport TKD. I do take offense at those that do. I do not bash their version, I do not see their need to bash my version. Just understand that they are 2 very different things, that share a common name.

[terryl965]

With all respect to MM and Master Terry, in their goals for their children, I find myself more of a mind with exile

But I teach both of course I have help with the Olympic game. But I have been able to do both with great results, so it is possible and alot of hard work.

[terryl965]

No. Never. If someone I know wants to do it, fine; I wouldn't try to dissuade them. But to me, the Olympics represent the kiss of death to any practical combat system.

Exile you have meet me and seen Zachary and my family we are Martial Artist first and sport second with out traing but it is possiable to do both.



Not even a little... no, it's worse than that. My view of TKD represents one pole, Olympic sparring the other, and the two are not just mutually incompatible but antagonistic. Again, that's just me. But no, no, no.

Again so you are saying what I do is out of bounds basically. Funny U thought we was one in the same, what is good for the common purpose of TKD. I guess one can not do both, but wait I do and people know I am able to bring out the best on both side tradition and sport.

Sorry had to say that, I am not special and we do get penalize alot for being to aggressive at tournaments but we do manage to be productive either way.

[exile]

Again so you are saying what I do is out of bounds basically.

Not at all, Terry. I've indicated clearly in my post that I'm not making judgments about anyone else's take on TKD, and that, while I don't see Olympic-style TKD as being healthy for the approach to TKD that I want to pursue, but I thought I was being very clear that I wasn't passing any judgments on anyone else's approach to the issue.

I think Olympic TKD is corrupt (as this very thread helps illustrate), reflecting organizational corruption, nothing to do with the competitors themselves (just as in that horrific figure skating scandal a number of years ago). And I think that the very aggressive institutional promotion of Olympic TKD by the Korean agencies that dominate the way sport TKD operates has lead to a severe devaluation of the martial content of TKD, not just in the point-scoring system of WTF-sponsored tournaments, but in the technical pressure exerted by the KKW (as I read it) to push the TKD curriculum in the direction of sport use, rather than combat application. But that says nothing about any particular individual who chooses to participate in WTF sponsored tournaments. The problem isn't with the participants, but with the Olympic administrators and profiteers, and with the subordination of combat relevance to sport spectacle by TKD Central in Seoul. I'm not sure why you think what I said was a reflection on your own involvement in any way.



Funny U thought we was one in the same, what is good for the common purpose of TKD. I guess one can not do both, but wait I do and people know I am able to bring out the best on both side tradition and sport.

Sorry had to say that, I am not special and we do get penalize alot for being to aggressive at tournaments but we do manage to be productive either way.

My point was just that (i) I wouldn't recommend, to anyone who asked me, getting involved in a supposedly competitive activity which is as subject to rigging and vote-swapping as we've seen Olympic sports in general to be over the past several years, with the disappointment, frustration and sheer unfairness that has resulted, and (ii) that the Olympic TKD organizations are driving a redefinition of TKD which is fundamanentally incompatible with the view of TKD that I hold. MangoMan actually said something very close to what I believe—they are two fundamentally different things going by different names—but the problem I see is that over time, the perception of TKD as exclusively sport spectacle will make it very difficult for people who wants to teach the combat art to attract clients to their dojangs, because the image of TKD as ring competition will have become so widely and deeply ingrained. But again, this passes no judgments on anyone who chooses to participate in such contests—reread my post, Terry, and you'll see that I was speaking for my choices alone.

[Steel Tiger]

In looking at all this, the question that comes to mind is

1) For parents, is this a course you would recommend to your kids?
2) For instructors, is this a course you would recommend for your students?

What I mean by that... given the some capricious nature of scoring in the world of TKD Olympic sparring (not just in this instance as it is a story I often hear) is this something you would encourage your students to do... not just sparring in this style but pursuing a 'career' of it?

How much does your view of what "Tae Kwon Do" is? Does a serious athletic pursuit of this style of competition cross or mesh with your view of Tae Kwon Do training

Now you know I am not a TKD practitioner but I have been reading this thread with some interest and FF's questions made me think. I cannot say whether or not I would recommend Olympic competition to my students because I have no experience in that style of martial art activity.

However, looking at it from the point of view of a parent, I can see that this might appeal. It is a physical activity, something we are being told we need more of (especially children); it can lead to prestigious Olympic involvement; and it is safe as far as martial arts go. Any parent who saw that fight and didn't have any real understanding of MAs would be quite happy to let their children participate. The perception would be that there is no chance of getting hurt.

And that is the real problem with Olympic TKD. It presents a certain face to the general public and it is not the same face that the practitioners see. This situation with the Lopez family is a continuation of that. In order to have a bunch of happy snaps and be able to say something about 100 years since a family represented in the same sport, USAT has furthered a very unfortunate stereotype that those outside (and many inside) the martial art community hold with regard to TKD.


I have a quick question of my own. When I was watching the match, apart from wishing they would do something, I kept wondering why no one used a sharp and quick front kick, snap kick call it what you will (I know it as a Crane kick). Can anyone tell me why, especially with the arms down by the sides?

[terryl965]

Not at all, Terry. I've indicated clearly in my post that I'm not making judgments about anyone else's take on TKD, and that, while I don't see Olympic-style TKD as being healthy for the approach to TKD that I want to pursue, but I thought I was being very clear that I wasn't passing any judgments on anyone else's approach to the issue.

I think Olympic TKD is corrupt (as this very thread helps illustrate), reflecting organizational corruption, nothing to do with the competitors themselves (just as in that horrific figure skating scandal a number of years ago). And I think that the very aggressive institutional promotion of Olympic TKD by the Korean agencies that dominate the way sport TKD operates has lead to a severe devaluation of the martial content of TKD, not just in the point-scoring system of WTF-sponsored tournaments, but in the technical pressure exerted by the KKW (as I read it) to push the TKD curriculum in the direction of sport use, rather than combat application. But that says nothing about any particular individual who chooses to participate in WTF sponsored tournaments. The problem isn't with the participants, but with the Olympic administrators and profiteers, and with the subordination of combat relevance to sport spectacle by TKD Central in Seoul. I'm not sure why you think what I said was a reflection on your own involvement in any way.




My point was just that (i) I wouldn't recommend, to anyone who asked me, getting involved in a supposedly competitive activity which is as subject to rigging and vote-swapping as we've seen Olympic sports in general to be over the past several years, with the disappointment, frustration and sheer unfairness that has resulted, and (ii) that the Olympic TKD organizations are driving a redefinition of TKD which is fundamanentally incompatible with the view of TKD that I hold. MangoMan actually said something very close to what I believe—they are two fundamentally different things going by different names—but the problem I see is that over time, the perception of TKD as exclusively sport spectacle will make it very difficult for people who wants to teach the combat art to attract clients to their dojangs, because the image of TKD as ring competition will have become so widely and deeply ingrained. But again, this passes no judgments on anyone who chooses to participate in such contests—reread my post, Terry, and you'll see that I was speaking for my choices alone.

Sorry Exile tired xlasses just got done and really did not read the entire thread, thank you for clearing that up.

[terryl965]

Now you know I am not a TKD practitioner but I have been reading this thread with some interest and FF's questions made me think. I cannot say whether or not I would recommend Olympic competition to my students because I have no experience in that style of martial art activity.

However, looking at it from the point of view of a parent, I can see that this might appeal. It is a physical activity, something we are being told we need more of (especially children); it can lead to prestigious Olympic involvement; and it is safe as far as martial arts go. Any parent who saw that fight and didn't have any real understanding of MAs would be quite happy to let their children participate. The perception would be that there is no chance of getting hurt.

And that is the real problem with Olympic TKD. It presents a certain face to the general public and it is not the same face that the practitioners see. This situation with the Lopez family is a continuation of that. In order to have a bunch of happy snaps and be able to say something about 100 years since a family represented in the same sport, USAT has furthered a very unfortunate stereotype that those outside (and many inside) the martial art community hold with regard to TKD.


I have a quick question of my own. When I was watching the match, apart from wishing they would do something, I kept wondering why no one used a sharp and quick front kick, snap kick call it what you will (I know it as a Crane kick). Can anyone tell me why, especially with the arms down by the sides?

I have no clue it is also called a push kick, basically most referee's wil not score it except the opponet is driven to the floor with it. Now this match was a bad example of Olympic TKD but for the most part this is what has become sit back and wait. All my fighters are tought to attack and score often and quickly setting us as the aggressor.

[Tez3]

I think Steel Tiger hit the nail on the head with his last post, for those of us who don't do TKD we have only this Olympic 'style' basically to show us what TKD is.
Incidentally, on another thread about MMA I was thinking of which UK fighters to represent my point about MMA fighters being martial artists and several I came up with are actually TKD black belts, there's other styles of course but I think it proves that TKD is still a combat sport! I don't think that the crossover to MMA implies anything about TKD, just that the practioner wishes to cross train.
I can understand ambitions to represent your country in an Olympics but in the case of TKD will the hopefuls also be training in what I'd call 'proper' TKD and learn to fight properly?

[terryl965]

I think Steel Tiger hit the nail on the head with his last post, for those of us who don't do TKD we have only this Olympic 'style' basically to show us what TKD is.
Incidentally, on another thread about MMA I was thinking of which UK fighters to represent my point about MMA fighters being martial artists and several I came up with are actually TKD black belts, there's other styles of course but I think it proves that TKD is still a combat sport! I don't think that the crossover to MMA implies anything about TKD, just that the practioner wishes to cross train.
I can understand ambitions to represent your country in an Olympics but in the case of TKD will the hopefuls also be training in what I'd call 'proper' TKD and learn to fight properly?

TEZ I can answer for my son Yes he trains both ways for the sport and for the streets. Who knows by the time 2012-2016 comes it may not even be part of the Olympics.

[Steel Tiger]

TEZ I can answer for my son Yes he trains both ways for the sport and for the streets. Who knows by the time 2012-2016 comes it may not even be part of the Olympics.

I hope that the Olympics does not lose TKD, but some rule changes need to be made. I have always thought it might be worth giving punches a higher score. Of course this still relies on the integrity of the judges.

[terryl965]

I hope that the Olympics does not lose TKD, but some rule changes need to be made. I have always thought it might be worth giving punches a higher score. Of course this still relies on the integrity of the judges.

Yes it does remember they are suppose to make some changes next year. Let hope they will include the hand to the head.

[exile]

I hope that the Olympics does not lose TKD, but some rule changes need to be made. I have always thought it might be worth giving punches a higher score. Of course this still relies on the integrity of the judges.

Yes it does remember they are suppose to make some changes next year. Let hope they will include the hand to the head.

Dead right, both of you. The head is the primo target in any real self-defense application of a MA, and probably 99 times out of hundred, it's going to be a hand/arm tech that nails that target. It seems crazy, doesn't it, to rule out what is probably the main realistic striking tech—fist/palm-heel/forearm/elbow to a head/throat target—in competition. The story goes, well, that could kill someone. And yes, it could; but then, rule out the genuinely lethal striking targets—the larynx, for example, or maybe the temple—but leave the face as a legal target, and above all, count hand strikes to the head for points. Just do that, and... instant regained credibility. But as ST reminds us, it all comes down to the judges... they have to be trained to report these strikes for scoring.

A big change in mindset is going to be necessary here...

[Steel Tiger]

The interesting thing I have found with Olympic TKD is that the targeting and scoring system actually trains fighters to attack those tougher targets - the torso and the head. And only those targets. The torso can be protected with the arms and the head is a high risk target (interesting that it doesn't score better than torso shots) given the fighters are effectively encouraged to use their feet.

From my point of view, a low kick can open up an opponent to an attack to a more vital location, but those sort of tactics, and from the few bouts I have seen any sort of tactics, are denied competitors. I guess it could be an attempt to encourage them to perform some flashy really high risk technique, rather than a methodical wearing down of the opponent.

This one of the elements that suggest to me TKD is going through a big change as the Olympic aspect vears into a significantly different direction to the combative aspect. The end result, in maybe 10 or 20 years, could very well be the existence of some very distinct substyles of TKD.

[texkwondo]

posted in wrong thread