SD kicks to the head

[newGuy12]

Hello, All.

I thought you might be interested in yet another example of a kick to the face in self defense. Remember, though, these kicks are not supposed to work in a SD situation, hahaha!

http://www2.tbo.com/content/2008/mar/28/trio-bradenton-try-rob-martial-arts-expert/?news-breaking

[exile]

Hello, All.

I thought you might be interested in yet another example of a kick to the face in self defense. Remember, though, these kicks are not supposed to work in a SD situation, hahaha!

http://www2.tbo.com/content/2008/mar/28/trio-bradenton-try-rob-martial-arts-expert/?news-breaking

I don't think it's that they're not supposed to work in a SD situation, nG, so much as that they're risky and likely to be impractical in a close range hand-to-hand situation, given the distances involved. But here a gun was involved (and the guy was taking a big chance, I have to say). It's likely that the group wasn't as close as they would have been had they been trying to jump the guy using just their fists, or close-in weapons like a knife. And clearly, they weren't actually expecting a fight (a thug pointing a gun probably doesn't expect to be attacked, eh?)

The guy was almost certainly good, and he was certainly very lucky, I'd say...

[newGuy12]

Yes, indeed, I would agree!

[terryl965]

He was differently Lucky, High kicks are great but not recomended for SD types of stituation and yes he must be good as well to do that.

[Twin Fist]

One of my instructors once told me, "if you wanna kick someone in the head so bad, kick them in the bladder first, then when they bend over screaming, the heads right THERE where you can kick it nice and easy, without falling on your ass"

[theletch1]

One of my instructors once told me, "if you wanna kick someone in the head so bad, kick them in the bladder first, then when they bend over screaming, the heads right THERE where you can kick it nice and easy, without falling on your ass"
That is one VERY wise instructor.:EG:

[exile]

One of my instructors once told me, "if you wanna kick someone in the head so bad, kick them in the bladder first, then when they bend over screaming, the heads right THERE where you can kick it nice and easy, without falling on your ass"

:lol:

My feeling is, if you want to train to kick high for SD purposes, fine. But to be realistic about it, you have to take seriously the falling-on-your-ass hazard, and also the fact that you need to be able to create the necessary distance to get the kick in. And both involve a different kind of training environment than people usually seek out.

For balance training in the extreme situations which a head-high kick involves in a streetfight, I think it would necessary to train on irregular, broken, sloping surfaces—the kind of real-world environments you're most likely going to be operating in when kick comes to shove in the big, bad real world. Let's face it, dojang floors are pretty artificial! And my own experiments with even moderately sloping surfaces has made it clear to me that achieving confident balance on them is a very different story from what I encounter in my TKD school. I personally would be very hesitant to throw a high kick—and I'm a pretty decent kicker, I think—if I hadn't practiced that same range of kicks on cracked asphalt driveways, broken pavement... the lot. And—in the same vein—on wet surfaces, gravelly surfaces (always a killer), soft ground... all the places where you can realistically expect to be finding yourself when things start going sideways. And let's not forget the clothing aspect—you better be training in the relatively tight jeans most of us have gotten used to wearing whenever we're not at work (or, in the academic world, when we are at work as well :D), in unsuitable footwear, etc. etc.

For distance-creation... practice in a deserted school classroom with a lot of desks, or your rec room after you've moved a bunch of tables, chairs and other hazards into it. Yes, interior spaces are more likely to have at least even floor levels; but they're also much more likely to be filled with junk of various kinds. To get enough distance to place a high kick, you need to add a foot or two to the in-your-face fighting range where you're likely to be confronted in a bar, club, lobby/elevator/etc. But you need to be able to do that in spite of the presence of furniture, bars, fixed counters... the works.

What I'm getting at is just this: the foregoing seems to me to be a reasonable, realistic picture of the training requirements you need to face up to if you want to be able to create high-kicking distances in any given real-world space, and administer that killer kick in stable balance. It's not simply a matter of practicing in your dojang in ideal empty-space/flat-floor conditions. I think this is a big reason why high SD kicks are so risky: they have a lot of built-in hazards that probably very few people consistently train for...

[Touch Of Death]

Hello, All.

I thought you might be interested in yet another example of a kick to the face in self defense. Remember, though, these kicks are not supposed to work in a SD situation, hahaha!

http://www2.tbo.com/content/2008/mar/28/trio-bradenton-try-rob-martial-arts-expert/?news-breaking look for the girl with the broken smile...

[theletch1]

Bob, that's an excellent post. My wife and I will regularly work aikido in our yard. There's a slight slope in two directions and (since the moles have had there way recently:mad:) lots of very uneven spots and the occasional solid looking spot that will give when you step. This training has increased our efficiency on level terrain to an extent that I wouldn't have believed had I not done it myself. Training in as many "real world" situations as possible is not just a good training habit, it's a necessity if you intend to train for self defense and have that defense be effective.

[Xue Sheng]

Ed Gruberman, you fail to grasp Ti Kwan Leep. Approach me that you might see

[newGuy12]

Ed Gruberman, you fail to grasp Ti Kwan Leep. Approach me that you might see
In this case, it might be Edie Gruberman (female). And, yes, the "boot to the head" worked!

[Tito]

I have to tell our Instructor about this tonight, I have a class at 6:30. My school is in Bradenton, about 10 minutes away from that part of Cortez road. (I wonder if she goes to my school?)

Anyways, it's good to see TKD is viable as self defense, despite what a lot of bashers say.

[YoungMan]

Anyone who thinks Tae Kwon Do is ineffective for self defense seriously underestimates it.

[terryl965]

Anyone who thinks Tae Kwon Do is ineffective for self defense seriously underestimates it.

That is if they do real TKD, if they only train for sport well that is another decussion.

[theletch1]

That is if they do real TKD, if they only train for sport well that is another decussion.
That goes for ANY art, Terry. Many people train for many reasons and not all of them are for SD. I think that those that train in an art for SD view each technique and scenario a little different than those that train for sport or for fitness. I've seen this in my old kempo school as well as my current NGA school.

[terryl965]

That goes for ANY art, Terry. Many people train for many reasons and not all of them are for SD. I think that those that train in an art for SD view each technique and scenario a little different than those that train for sport or for fitness. I've seen this in my old kempo school as well as my current NGA school.

I would agree but the OP said that TKD in general was effective and I was pointing out that it was if you train that way. Remember in TKD some school does not teach any SD at all so there way of kicking for point would be worthless on the street. But I do agree with your above statement it goes for all Arts.

[MJS]

I don't think it's that they're not supposed to work in a SD situation, nG, so much as that they're risky and likely to be impractical in a close range hand-to-hand situation, given the distances involved. But here a gun was involved (and the guy was taking a big chance, I have to say). It's likely that the group wasn't as close as they would have been had they been trying to jump the guy using just their fists, or close-in weapons like a knife. And clearly, they weren't actually expecting a fight (a thug pointing a gun probably doesn't expect to be attacked, eh?)

The guy was almost certainly good, and he was certainly very lucky, I'd say...

My thoughts exactly. I'm glad things worked out well. But, seeing that there was a gun, I don't know if the options he chose were necessarily the best ones. For myself, I'd want to gain control of the weapon hand/arm first. Did it work? Yup. Was it the best option? IMO, no.

[exile]

My wife and I will regularly work aikido in our yard. There's a slight slope in two directions and (since the moles have had there way recently:mad:)

They are persistent little buggers, and do mess up the lawn, but I can't help being fond of them... reading enough Redwall novels to your kid will do that to you, so be warned! :wink1:


lots of very uneven spots and the occasional solid looking spot that will give when you step. This training has increased our efficiency on level terrain to an extent that I wouldn't have believed had I not done it myself.

Yes, thricefold.


Training in as many "real world" situations as possible is not just a good training habit, it's a necessity if you intend to train for self defense and have that defense be effective.


That goes for ANY art, Terry. Many people train for many reasons and not all of them are for SD. I think that those that train in an art for SD view each technique and scenario a little different than those that train for sport or for fitness. I've seen this in my old kempo school as well as my current NGA school.


I would agree but the OP said that TKD in general was effective and I was pointing out that it was if you train that way. Remember in TKD some school does not teach any SD at all so there way of kicking for point would be worthless on the street. But I do agree with your above statement it goes for all Arts.

I see three main dojang orientations out there:


Heavily into sport. sparring; hyungs trained for competition; emphasis on athletic virtuosity.

Heavily into SD; emphasis on defensive applications; much greater use of knee and elbow strikes, controlling moves, attacks on 'forbidden' targets (eyes, throat, face, groin) and limb damage.

Vague sparring, vague SD, nothing really too much one way or the other; the subtext is, this is good for you (and your kids! $$$$) to do; just go through the motions on schedule and collect your belt every four to six months.


Of all of these, my guess is that the last category has by far the largest population.

Most people don't really fancy themselves as WTF-rules competitors, and with good reasons. But it's also true that most people can't quite bring themselves to face the prospect of having to fight for their lives, using their hands and feet. You can only do what you train for; that's become something of a cliché in our business, but it's become so for a very good reason! Before you can accept the kind of hard noncompliant scenario training that effective SD requires, you have to actually, sincerely accept the real-world possibility that you may find yourself in an empty parking garage with only your TKD skills to get you home in one piece. That's something most people just cannot do... and that goes quadruple so far as their kids are concerned.

That's why the last category of dojang is probably the most well-attended. So it's not just a question of whether TKD is/can be an effective MA—the problem isn't with the MA, it's with the intentions and attitude of the student whether they really, in their heart of hearts, want to train it for survival, with all the baggage that goes along with that attitude. Most folks don't, I don't think.

[IcemanSK]

I think it's a really bad idea for us to "armchair quarterback" this & this guy's choice of techniques in the situation he faced on that night. For him, it's what came to mind & it happened to work in his favor. Anymore than a run vs. a pass that got over the goal line "worked."

Most of us as TKDoan don't reccomend head kicks on the street. We would certainly not use this guy's actions as a "if X happens, do Y" teaching opportunity. In fact, I'd hope we all teach the concepts behind techniques rather than "if X, then Y" scenarios.

All we can really say is, "glad it worked out for him." He was faced with a situation where he had to either use his training or possibly get hurt & he walked away unhurt. Let's hope that if we are ever in that situation, we can do the same.

[newGuy12]

Yes! And, the proof of the pudding is in the eating!

[exile]

I think it's a really bad idea for us to "armchair quarterback" this & this guy's choice of techniques in the situation he faced on that night. For him, it's what came to mind & it happened to work in his favor. Anymore than a run vs. a pass that got over the goal line "worked."


I don't think anyone is criticizing the guy's moves, Ice—I mean, you can't argue with success, eh?—but Dame Fortune was definitely smiling on him that day!



All we can really say is, "glad it worked out for him." He was faced with a situation where he had to either use his training or possibly get hurt & he walked away unhurt. Let's hope that if we are ever in that situation, we can do the same.

... and hope that we're as lucky as he was!

The bottom line problem is that we just don't know what's going to happen when we're in a dangerous situation and we do something. Tiny things beyond our control can make all the difference in the world, no matter how good we are. At one point, you just have to choose what to do and do it, and hope that, as with this guy, your number isn't up...

[FearlessFreep]

I would agree but the OP said that TKD in general was effective and I was pointing out that it was if you train that way. Remember in TKD some school does not teach any SD at all so there way of kicking for point would be worthless on the street. But I do agree with your above statement it goes for all Arts.

One thing I try to keep in mind is something I believe

All things being equal, strength wins
All things being equal, speed wins
All things being equal, size wins
All things being equal, technique wins
All things being equal, conditioning wins
All things being equal, determination wins
All things being equal, training wins
All things being equal, experience wins
Things are never equal

(I came up with that myself so it just makes sense to me, but if anyone disagrees, I'll listen)

But anyway, point is that I feel that the idea of SD is not a continuum, it's many dimensional. All the factors come to play and you hope you have more positives then your opponent. Any serious athlete from *any* sport is going to have advantages in stamina, maybe strength, and speed, than a non-athlete, but any brawler is going to have advantages in practical experience then they guy who trains pure SD but has no real world exposure. So who wins? Depends on how it all stacks up on that day.

Like in football, the offense has rushing, and passing, and offensive line on the rush and offensive line on the pass. The defense has pass rush and run defense and secondary. Each of the components has aspects of speed, size, and game plan. So who wins the game? Well, that's why they play it, to see whose combinations of positives wins out over the negatives.

So training TKD for self-defense is more effective along certain lines than training TKD for sport. But training TKD for sport is more effective along certain lines than not training at all, but getting in street fights is more effective along certain lines than no direct experience.

So I guess my thinking is that even badminton can be effective. They have stamina and speed and when your best self-defense move is to run like heck, that's pretty effective. Maybe not as effective in all scenarios, better than nothing

[FearlessFreep]

but Dame Fortune was definitely smiling on him that day!

He was three on one and one of the three had a gun. He was pretty darn lucky to escape un-injured no matter *what* his response. What is the correct high percentage response to facing three opponents, one or more of which are armed? I mean other than hoping your life insurance is paid up for the sake of your survivors

I think at issue is the fact that the news description is not an analysis of martial arts technique, it's just a news article for normal people. They guy obviously had some skill so I'm willing to grant that maybe he had a really good reason for what he did. Maybe the kick to the face followed another technique that brought the opponents face down which the article does not describe? Maybe he noticed a certain amount of nervousness and thought that something as impacting as a kick to the face would have an emotional result as well? Maybe it was a move he practiced a lot so he had more confidence, or more of an automatic reaction, thane another technique that would've been higher-percentage but in which he had less confidence/experience? , I dunno, it's a news article not a training demo. I'd actually be really curious to ask him his thought process and motivations

[exile]

I'd actually be really curious to ask him his thought process and motivations

That's what I always wonder about. He may have decided that there was too great a risk of getting shot even if he cooperated and might as well go for broke, given the chances. You really do wonder about what it was in the situation that prompted him to act.

One thing we can say for sure: he had the skill to kick high and carry it off. That's something definitely worth developing, even if in most situations lower kicks are lower-risk. But it's not really possible to draw any general conclusions from a single example—we don't know how many times other people have tried to do the same thing and had it go badly sideways on them. The only thing you can say for sure is that this guy has used up a lot of whatever good luck was assigned him at birth...

[newGuy12]

So training TKD for self-defense is more effective along certain lines than training TKD for sport. But training TKD for sport is more effective along certain lines than not training at all,
Okay, then, someone else said what I was thinking. I have a buddy who USED to be a boxer. He was in "golden gloves" competitions and was successful to some extent. Now, he never trained for self defense. Never.

But, this guy can punch, HARD, no joke. And from a boxer's position of course. SD training or NOT, this guy can take his licks and give them out too! So, you see, in this way, he makes himself more able to defend than if he had never trained!

[newGuy12]

That's what I always wonder about. He may have decided that there was too great a risk of getting shot even if he cooperated and might as well go for broke, given the chances. You really do wonder about what it was in the situation that prompted him to act.


Wouldn't it be interesting to know more? Was he an exceptionally tall man, and the attacker an exceptionally short woman?

Was he in "perfect kicking range"? Did he do this without too much forethought, but more as just what he trained? I just wish we had more information.

And, yes, I suspect strongly that the thought occurred, "SHE IS GOING TO TO SHOOT ME NOW!!!"

[newGuy12]

Did he lean far after grabbing the gun hand (or gun), and in so doing, choose the head to "end it", since his torso was off vertical line?

Many questions arise, I think.

[exile]

Wouldn't it be interesting to know more? Was he an exceptionally tall man, and the attacker an exceptionally short woman?

Was he in "perfect kicking range"? Did he do this without too much forethought, but more as just what he trained? I just wish we had more information.

And, yes, I suspect strongly that the thought occurred, "SHE IS GOING TO TO SHOOT ME NOW!!!"


Did he lean far after grabbing the gun hand (or gun), and in so doing, choose the head to "end it", since his torso was off vertical line?

Many questions arise, I think.

That's the thing... it's hard to know what to think (apart from, 'I'm glad it wasn't me in a position where I had to make that kind of decision') without knowing more about the specifics. The devil is in the details, they say, and they is right!

[Tito]

I guess I read the article wrong >>. I was caught up in the whole "Edy is a girl" comment, and thought the kicker was a woman...

[Kacey]

Like so many other things that occur in MA training, pure athleticism (as demonstrated by high kicking, or jump kicking, or doing full splits, etc.) is not, on the surface, directly related to self-defense - BUT increased athletic ability, as shown by general fitness, endurance, flexibility, balance, and strength, CAN help in self-defense, because you will have more options than someone with the same technical knowledge and less physical ability. That is the purpose of training techniques and skills that seem to be superficially unrelated to actual self-defense situations. That doesn't mean that all techniques are appropriate for all situations, or for all people - but you should all know that already.

[jim777]

Another point to consider is that the article might simply be incorrect from a TKD point of view ;) What if the 'kick to the head' was an outer crescent to the back of the trigger hand, and sent the gun flying? I suppose it was the kicker who told the police what happened (difficult to imagine otherwise), and the reporter who read the nightly/daily police blotter may have decided outer crescent was less 'reader friendly' than 'kick to the head'. I mean, it's just one of those wacky karate Bruce Lee moves, who's going to know one way or the other, right? :) If you don't know Martial Arts, you dumb it down to where it becomes interesting reading for your readers, I suppose is the gist of what I'm saying (I feel like that wooden armed and legged fisherman in Family Guy now :lol: ).

jim

[MJS]

Another point to consider is that the article might simply be incorrect from a TKD point of view ;) What if the 'kick to the head' was an outer crescent to the back of the trigger hand, and sent the gun flying? I suppose it was the kicker who told the police what happened (difficult to imagine otherwise), and the reporter who read the nightly/daily police blotter may have decided outer crescent was less 'reader friendly' than 'kick to the head'. I mean, it's just one of those wacky karate Bruce Lee moves, who's going to know one way or the other, right? :) If you don't know Martial Arts, you dumb it down to where it becomes interesting reading for your readers, I suppose is the gist of what I'm saying (I feel like that wooden armed and legged fisherman in Family Guy now :lol: ).

jim

I'll preface this with saying that I do not study TKD, but from a realistic standpoint, do you feel that its really the best option to attempt a kick against a gun or knife? I mean, we see Chuck Norris do it all the time, but thats the movies, where the bad guy always gets caught and the good guy always walks away. :)

[jim777]

Personally, I think the best idea would be to put up your hands either immediately before or after handing over your wallet. :lol:
But I certainly know BBs who could overpower you in the wink of an eye with any number of strikes or kicks. It depends on the person being robbed, and the person robbing, and their mental and physical abilities.

I was really only saying that as Martial Artists, when we see something inthe news like "kick to the head" we immediately go over all of our high kicks in our heads and wonder which one was used (hook, front snap, jumping this or spinning that, etc), but if the reporter doesn't study martial arts then almost any move could be called a "kick to the head" in a story to make it more readable. Maybe a quick knifehand or hammerfist strike to the back of the hand to send the gun flying preceded a front snap to the face, for example, before the MA'ist ran off...Anything could have happened.

[YoungMan]

I also think your average person, especially a newspaper reporter who is used to getting the facts, would know the difference between a kick to the head and any other technique.
They may not know exactly what kick was used (i.e. name of the kick) but they'd most likely know what a kick to the head looks like versus a kick to the hand or strike to the back of the neck.
Give them a little credit.

[jim777]

I also think your average person, especially a newspaper reporter who is used to getting the facts, would know the difference between a kick to the head and any other technique.
They may not know exactly what kick was used (i.e. name of the kick) but they'd most likely know what a kick to the head looks like versus a kick to the hand or strike to the back of the neck.
Give them a little credit.

In my opinion you are looking at this incorrectly sir. How exactly would a reporter know what the kick looked like from reading about this nearly non-event in a police blotter? Reporters don't jump out of bed in the middle of the night to cover "few were involved, no one was injured, no one was caught" stories, and the report certainly would have mentioned that it was an eye witness acount had any reporter been present. The whole story is second hand at best. That was my point ;)