A Uniquely Early 21st Century Crime - What Would You Do?

[tellner]

Coming close on the heels of this thread, what would you do if you came home and found a whole mob of people looting your house?

There's been a few times, of which the one below is only the latest, where someone posts an ad on Craigslist or similar. It says that a house had been abandoned. Please feel free to come and take whatever you want. The first time I saw this story in the paper the owner was away for days. She came home to find the pipes ripped out of the walls.

This time (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2004302237_webhoax24m.html) it didn't quite go that far.


The ads popped up Saturday afternoon, saying the owner of a Jacksonville home was forced to leave the area suddenly and his belongings, including a horse, were free for the taking
...
"I informed them I was the owner, but they refused to give the stuff back," Salisbury said. "They showed me the Craigslist printout and told me they had the right to do what they did."


The driver sped away after rebuking Salisbury. On his way home he spotted other cars filled with his belongings.

I'd tell them once clearly that it was my house, and they were stealing from it. After they've been informed they have a chance to put my property down immediately. If they don't, they are committing a burglary against a dwelling. And there's a whole pile of them which means I am in a situation with immense disparity of force. I can't reach into the souls of the people who are carting away everything. All I can know is that they've broken into my house to steal from me in large numbers. Since it's my house I know that they could be armed with my own weapons.


The numbers roll around and "deadly force" keeps falling out of the hopper.


I'm not a lawyer, but I'd be willing to bet that the guy who posted the hoax would end up riding the pipe for any deaths that came out of this. It was his or her conspiracy and actions which were responsible for the killings.

[KenpoTex]

A situation like this could easily have a very ugly ending in any "castle doctrine" state.

[still learning]

Hello, The safest thing is to call the police and contact a lawyer!

If confronted one thing you can do is ask them to leave with out your stuffs....get their licence plates,take pictures (if carrying a camera)...

Best not to get into any aggressive fights....accept what happen so far and prevent anyone else from entering the premise.

Sad that this has happen to someone...and for those who believe those ads? ...should question it? ...if it is too good to be true? ...mostly likely a prank!

Aloha

[tellner]

It certainly could turn ugly. And the safest thing to do is lie back and take it. Accept that everything you worked for will be taken from you and hope that the police will bother to come and take a report after the fact.

That would be safest.

Sometimes safest is not best. And where you fall on that is more a question of fundamental character than anything else.

Besides. I'll be between them and the door. If they want to take leave with what they've looted they'll have to physically assault me.

[terryl965]

People are more gullible today than ever before in history.

[kaizasosei]

i would call the cops! real fast!!!

j

[Ninjamom]

People are more gullible today than ever before in history.I wonder if they are 'willfully gullible', though. Do they honestly NOT SEE that what they are doing is illegal and unethical, or is it just one more manifestation of our 'me first' entitlement culture?


It certainly could turn ugly. And the safest thing to do is lie back and take it. Accept that everything you worked for will be taken from you and hope that the police will bother to come and take a report after the fact.After our home was burglarized two years ago, I came to the unpleasant realization that it isn't anybody's
'job' to see that we get a stitch of our stuff back. Catching and prosecuting the perpetrators takes the front seat. If in the process someone happens to see some of our stuff, that's 'nice', but not necessary for the rest of the process. I wouldn't go so far as to say that no one cares if we get anything back, but...... OK, yes I would say that.

[terryl965]

I wonder if they are 'willfully gullible', though. Do they honestly NOT SEE that what they are doing is illegal and unethical, or is it just one more manifestation of our 'me first' entitlement culture?

I would agree self induce, people today just does not get it. I know if that happened to me I would go nutts.

After our home was burglarized two years ago, I came to the unpleasant realization that it isn't anybody's
'job' to see that we get a stitch of our stuff back. Catching and prosecuting the perpetrators takes the front seat. If in the process someone happens to see some of our stuff, that's 'nice', but not necessary for the rest of the process. I wouldn't go so far as to say that no one cares if we get anything back, but...... OK, yes I would say that.

Sorry to hear you was burglarized, it isa hard thing to get over and some stuff can never be replaced.

[Flying Crane]

I wonder if it would all be covered by homeowners or renters insurance.

[Andy Moynihan]

Well first of all, if the building was locked how did they gain access to start with?

I would hope any competent locksmith would verify the one calling would in fact be able to prove ownership of the property before working on the locks.....???

If one has neighbors surely even if they DIDN'T know what the owner looked like and were fooled by the locksmith even THEY would recognize a B&E in progress if someone just kicked it in?

[Live True]

I wonder if it would all be covered by homeowners or renters insurance.
Unfortunately, not all the loss is physical and replaceable.

[Steel Tiger]

I wonder if they are 'willfully gullible', though. Do they honestly NOT SEE that what they are doing is illegal and unethical, or is it just one more manifestation of our 'me first' entitlement culture?

Definitely a manifestation of the 'me first' culture. Just look at the reprobate who used a print out from the internet to explain he had a right to steal. Where do these ideas come from? I fear that if I were in that situation that particular individual would not have been driving away, others might escape, but not him.

I must have missed something in the last couple of decades, when did our society get so mean spirited that someone would intentionally set up another persons house to be robbed and vandalised? I wonder was it someone with a grudge or just one of thosemindlessly vicious crimes against a complete stranger.

[MJS]

Hmm..what would I do? Well, after getting over the initial shock of seeing what was going on, the first thing I'd do is call the police. I really don't think that just by showing a copy of the craigslist ad, that that would be enough proof, for someone to go thru my house. I don't feel that an ad is a legal document. I would demand proof that it was I that actually put the ad online in the first place.

As Andy said...how was access to the house gained? Kicking in the door? Through a window? I'm sorry, but if something was free, it would be easily accessable. Basically as far as I'm concerned, these people have broken into a house and are guilty of B&E as he said.

And who in their right mind would actually think that there was nothing odd about an ad like this. An entire house up for first come first serve? Then again, there're alot of stupid people out there, so anything is possible.

I'm sorry, but I don't feel that I should have to accept anything. I'm not going to just stand by and watch people enter/exit my house with my property, without doing something. If that means fighting with the person or using force to keep my belongings, then so be it.

[thardey]

I would probably pick one of the looters, and "publicly" perform a "citizens arrest" starting with the one who showed me the ad in the first place. Loudly and firmly tell him that I am calling the police, and that he is going to jail. That would certainly serve as a deterrent to more looting. You know he'll be squawking about his "rights" and anybody else around will know that I got one of 'em, and they don't want to be taking his place.

I doubt that anything would come of it, but I'm sure I have the right to detain an "invader" to my property. I'm got some zip ties in the garage that should hold him nicely. (Assuming that they weren't among the first things to go.)

[Brian R. VanCise]

I think in a situation like this having a phone and calling the police would be the first response. Taking pictures and video with the same phone would be the next response. (you have to love our modern cell phone's http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon10.gif) I would be taking photos of cars license plates, faces, etc. Truthfully I would try and stay away from the looters because if there are that many then a physical confrontation would certainly be bad and someone (not me) would probably end up seriously hurt. (remember I am a tool based martial science practitioner) I imagine in my small town that the police would be there in less than two to three mintues and the situation would be resolved shortly and everyone there would be arrested and yes I would prosecute for the damages and well in general for their stupidity.

[sgtmac_46]

I'd walk in, grab Mr. Benelli from his hiding place, and then proceed to 'explain' to these morons that A) They're under arrest B) They're not free to leave and C) Anyone who does attempt to leave is going to get SHOT!

Of course that's assuming their outside my house.....if they're IN my house we'll skip the middle man and start shooting people!

[Makalakumu]

I'd walk in, grab Mr. Benelli from his hiding place, and then proceed to 'explain' to these morons that A) They're under arrest B) They're not free to leave and C) Anyone who does attempt to leave is going to get SHOT!

Of course that's assuming their outside my house.....if they're IN my house we'll skip the middle man and start shooting people!

I'd be afraid of starting a shootout. Who knows who else is armed? If the mob is peaceful, I'd call the police and start taking pictures. If not and I feel personally in danger, I would exit the situation. I can't imagine that someone would pursue...but if they did, I'm attacking.

Where does it stop? How far do you go? If the cops show up and you are shooting people or exchanging fire with a mob, what do you think they are going to do?

Very ugly.

[rompida]

screw that - my first shot would be in the air. Whoever is still in my house after that is fair game. I am a firm believer in the castle doctrine.

[Makalakumu]

I would fire from cover in a tactical position that would make it very difficult for a mob to assail me. If I were armed in such a way and I felt threatened or felt motivated by such law, I would look for a place that I would have the maximum effect on killing my fellow townspeople.

Of course, then I may have to deal with the retribution. Whose brother, mother, father, sister, did I just knock down to protect my stupid ****? Is Their life worth more then my property?

If your little sister thought that my TV was fair game because of something she, naively, read on the internet and I blew her brains out, would you feel a little miffed?

This is how the blood fueds get going in places like Afghanistan and Iraq.

[sgtmac_46]

I'd be afraid of starting a shootout. Who knows who else is armed? If the mob is peaceful, I'd call the police and start taking pictures. If not and I feel personally in danger, I would exit the situation. I can't imagine that someone would pursue...but if they did, I'm attacking.

Where does it stop? How far do you go? If the cops show up and you are shooting people or exchanging fire with a mob, what do you think they are going to do?

Very ugly. If they're in my home it won't matter who's armed....it'll be over with in just a couple of seconds anyway. REAL gunfights don't generally last more than a few seconds. Those not dead will be running from my house as quickly as their legs will take them!

If they're not in my house, i'll be at my front door preparing to repel boarders! I'm not retreating from my own home for ANY mob, peaceful or otherwise!

Also, since the cops where I live are my co-workers, and those who will be responding to my house know where I live, they know who's side their own when they show up. ;)

[sgtmac_46]

screw that - my first shot would be in the air. Whoever is still in my house after that is fair game. I am a firm believer in the castle doctrine. I'd prefer not to blow a hole in my roof. :)

[sgtmac_46]

I would fire from cover in a tactical position that would make it very difficult for a mob to assail me. If I were armed in such a way and I felt threatened or felt motivated by such law, I would look for a place that I would have the maximum effect on killing my fellow townspeople.

Of course, then I may have to deal with the retribution. Whose brother, mother, father, sister, did I just knock down to protect my stupid ****? Is Their life worth more then my property?

If your little sister thought that my TV was fair game because of something she, naively, read on the internet and I blew her brains out, would you feel a little miffed?

This is how the blood fueds get going in places like Afghanistan and Iraq. They should be asking THEMSELVES 'Is MY life worth worth HIS property'.....not vice versa.

If my ADULT little sister was stupid enough to believe that an internet ad justified HOME INVASION she'd get a Darwin Award nomination! There's no justification for 'STUPID'!

I've always been that way.....I had three acquaintances growing up who committed a string of home burglaries....they stole several items including a few guns......while driving away from the scene a Missouri State Highway Patrol trooper pulled them over, and one of the guys got out with a gun.....the trooper shot him DEAD RIGHT THERE!

Now, several of my teenage friends at the time were OUTRAGED 'That cop shot him for no reason!'......I was a teenager too, but not only did I figure HE deserved it for pulling the gun, the other two deserved it for BURGLARIZING HOUSES! I made myself very popular in my circle by stating that very thing! I even got in a fist fight with the dead guys brother when he started spouting off that he wished he could kill the trooper that killed his brother.....and I told him if his brother wasn't a thieving moron with two other thieving morons he wouldn't be DEAD....and that it was just as well!

[Makalakumu]

Also, since the cops where I live are my co-workers, and those who will be responding to my house know where I live, they know who's side their own when they show up. ;)

Well, the certainly helps. But, lets say, you and your posse shows up and I've got nine people dead inside my home. They were trying to take my stuff so I went through the house and shotgunned every man, woman, and child (under 18) to death.

I sense a cavalier attitude that doesnt mesh well with the current legal system...

[sgtmac_46]

Well, the certainly helps. But, lets say, you and your posse shows up and I've got nine people dead inside my home. They were trying to take my stuff so I went through the house and shotgunned every man, woman, and child (under 18) to death.

I sense a cavalier attitude that doesnt mesh well with the current legal system... All of that would be perfectly legal per Missouri law......in fact the NUMBERS would MORE justify lethal force than ONE person in your home.

A person may use LETHAL FORCE in Missouri, per 563.031 Rsmo....IF



(1) He or she reasonably believes that such deadly force is necessary to protect himself or herself or another against death, serious physical injury, or any forcible felony; or

(2) Such force is used against a person who unlawfully enters, remains after unlawfully entering, or attempts to unlawfully enter a dwelling, residence, or vehicle lawfully occupied by such person.

3. A person does not have a duty to retreat from a dwelling, residence, or vehicle where the person is not unlawfully entering or unlawfully remaining.

http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/c500-599/5630000031.htm


In OTHER WORDS.....the very ACT of entering, remaining after unlawfully entering, or attempting to unlawfully enter your home OR vehicle that you are currently occupying JUSTIFIES lethal force without ANY duty on your part to attempt any kind of retreat.....there it is in black and white.

The cited situation that started this thread fits THAT to a 'T'.

Now, i'm not telling you what you SHOULD do.....but i'm telling you what the laws of the State of Missouri ALLOW to be done.

[sgtmac_46]

Let me say that, upon further review, my last couple of posts may seem a little flippant.....I can understand that interpretation. But I feel very STRONGLY about people to be secure in their homes and property from outside threats EVEN to the point of lethal force to ENSURE that safety and security! I very much view someone's home as their Castle, and strongly believe that the state should give GREAT latitude to individuals in defense of their Castle....that is merely their point.

If I put too fine of a point on that, or was a bit more coarse in presentation than I intended, my apologies......I sometimes have a tendency to be a bit too forceful in my presentation.

[tellner]

Of course, then I may have to deal with the retribution. Whose brother, mother, father, sister, did I just knock down to protect my stupid ****? Is Their life worth more then my property?

If your little sister thought that my TV was fair game because of something she, naively, read on the internet and I blew her brains out, would you feel a little miffed?

This is how the blood fueds get going in places like Afghanistan and Iraq.

Everyone is someone's son, daughter, sister, brother, mother or father. Once they break into my house to steal things they add the new title "thief". I understand that people can be stupid. That's why I would do my best to tell them "You've been duped. This is my house. This is my stuff. Put it down."

But there comes a time when you can't protect people from their own folly.

There is nothing in my house that is worth anyone's life. That's what they should consider when they come to steal. And that's why they should stop stealing when it's brought to their attention. It represents thousands of hours of work and not a few irreplaceable personal memories on my part.

Getting to a safe place and calling the police means that my house will be stripped bare. I will not recover any of my property. And there will be quite a few armed criminals running around because I sat and did nothing.

Sgt Mac, it must be good to be above the law. "They work with me. I have nothing to fear from them." You've very nicely proved my point about the police. Good or bad, fair or foul, you're one of their homies. So you can get away with all sorts of things in your private life that the rest of us would risk jail for. And that is why most people fear rather than trust cops in general.

[Makalakumu]

I would have a hard time killing someone over my good china. Especially in a situation where it may all be a misunderstanding. Threaten my son, my daughter, or my wife and its open season on humans.

That said, I think that anybody should have the right to defend their property if they so wish. If I woke up in the middle of the night and someone had broken down my door and was going through my possessions, I'm not going to assume anything other then they mean me and my own harm.

As far as the police situation goes, I sure hope they would treat me fairly, according to the law, when they came upon the situation.

[tellner]

Oh, it's not bravado. And I would really, really prefer to have a reasonable alternative. But a lot of my savings and all of my family is in that house. I can't afford to just watch it all go away. And if someone won't stop once he's been informed that it's my property and has seen that I'm armed, well, I just can't see much distance between "Let it all go" and "Stop them".

If it were just one or two I might be able to restrain and reason. Thirty or forty looters with serious groupthink going? I don't think so.

[Bigshadow]

A situation like this could easily have a very ugly ending in any "castle doctrine" state.

Damn, beat me to it! Very true! ;) I instantly thought "Castle Doctrine".

[Makalakumu]

Oh, it's not bravado. And I would really, really prefer to have a reasonable alternative. But a lot of my savings and all of my family is in that house. I can't afford to just watch it all go away. And if someone won't stop once he's been informed that it's my property and has seen that I'm armed, well, I just can't see much distance between "Let it all go" and "Stop them".

If it were just one or two I might be able to restrain and reason. Thirty or forty looters with serious groupthink going? I don't think so.

I see your point, yet I still must questions, from an ethical position, if any material possessions are worth someone's life. I don't want to make that judgement for anyone. I believe that people should have the freedom to make that judgement if they wish. However, personally, I don't think I could shoot someone over my cheap, made in china, planned obsolesent possessions.

Mobs are a different story. That can get dangerous very quick. I hope I never see this in my life, but if I did, I may very well resort to deadly force, if the law was on my side.

[jks9199]

screw that - my first shot would be in the air. Whoever is still in my house after that is fair game. I am a firm believer in the castle doctrine.
Warning shots are unwise -- especially into the air. We'd call it "reckless discharge of a firearm" and you'd end up with a class 1 misdemeanor and a free trip to the jail.

If your going to draw on someone, be ready to shoot that person then and there. Or leave the gun in the holster.

Personally, if I walked into a scenario like that -- I'd almost certainly be drawing my gun, and ordering everyone to the ground. There are too many folks, and I don't know who may or may not be armed. I'm not waiting till someone moves agressively to be ready to act -- but I'm not firing a shot until someone moves aggressively, either. And, as soon as the situation permitted, I'd be dialing 911, and letting them know what's up.

[Guardian]

Hmm..what would I do? Well, after getting over the initial shock of seeing what was going on, the first thing I'd do is call the police. I really don't think that just by showing a copy of the craigslist ad, that that would be enough proof, for someone to go thru my house. I don't feel that an ad is a legal document. I would demand proof that it was I that actually put the ad online in the first place.

As Andy said...how was access to the house gained? Kicking in the door? Through a window? I'm sorry, but if something was free, it would be easily accessable. Basically as far as I'm concerned, these people have broken into a house and are guilty of B&E as he said.

And who in their right mind would actually think that there was nothing odd about an ad like this. An entire house up for first come first serve? Then again, there're alot of stupid people out there, so anything is possible.

I'm sorry, but I don't feel that I should have to accept anything. I'm not going to just stand by and watch people enter/exit my house with my property, without doing something. If that means fighting with the person or using force to keep my belongings, then so be it.

My thoughts exactly, I'll be darned if I just stand there, sure I'll have some call the cops or I will, but after that call, I'm going to go and stop that nonsense one way or another.

[KenpoTex]

I see your point, yet I still must questions, from an ethical position, if any material possessions are worth someone's life.
AFAIC, that's the question they should be asking.

[Andy Moynihan]

It's interesting that though we've had several people sound off with different viewpoints the original question of how was access gained to the house remains unanswered....?

[Makalakumu]

AFAIC, that's the question they should be asking.

I agree. However, I also know that if I kill someone, I get to live with that for the rest of my life. I've never had to do this...and I am glad of that fact. However, I have had several family members who have taken other people's lives in battle or in the line of duty and with every single person, whether the cause was warrented or not, the toll was great.

With that being said, I think that this is also something that anybody who is serious about self defense should think about. When would you take another person's life? The law will determine when this is appropriate in most cases, but sometimes there are fuzzy lines.

I guess this goes to show just how important it is to be crystal clear regarding the laws for self defense in your area.

[sgtmac_46]

Sgt Mac, it must be good to be above the law. "They work with me. I have nothing to fear from them." You've very nicely proved my point about the police. Good or bad, fair or foul, you're one of their homies. So you can get away with all sorts of things in your private life that the rest of us would risk jail for. And that is why most people fear rather than trust cops in general. Really....is THAT what you read? Because that's certainly not what I typed....have you got an issue with me? Or just cops in general?

Because what I TYPED was a response that he said 'What if the cops show up'.....I just happen to KNOW them and they KNOW where I live! How does that make me 'above the law'? ALL I SAID was that if the local cops show up

1) THEY KNOW ME ON SIGHT
2) THEY KNOW THAT'S MY HOUSE!
ergo
3) Anyone ELSE ON MY PROPERTY ENGAGING IN A GUN BATTLE WITH ME IS THE BAD GUY!

It seems as though you are projecting some animosity on me for some reason, and i'm really not appreciative of you mischaracterizing my statements as a result of it.

NOTHING I claimed I would do in that situation is ANY DIFFERENT than the what the law of the STATE OF MISSOURI allows any other private citizen....I NEVER claimed, as you assert, that i'm ABOVE THE LAW or that in private I CLAIM SPECIAL PRIVELEGES you do not HAVE! If you believe that I have said that, then I believe what is at issue is your reading comprehension abilities, not my statements, sir!


What I find HUMOROUSLY ironic is that, after chastising me for 'thinking I as above the law', you then go on and prescribe the VERY SAME ACTION you claimed I was above the law for prescribing!

It seems you're attempting to paint me as some sort of 'elitist thug cop'......and that's IRONICALLY offensive in that i'm one the BIGGEST advocates of the rights of private citizens to defend themselves and their property that YOU WILL EVER MEET! I support CCW laws and national reciprocity for those laws because I believe that law enforcement isn't the only category of people who should be able to carry a gun to defend themselves!

[sgtmac_46]

I see your point, yet I still must questions, from an ethical position, if any material possessions are worth someone's life. I don't want to make that judgement for anyone. I believe that people should have the freedom to make that judgement if they wish. However, personally, I don't think I could shoot someone over my cheap, made in china, planned obsolesent possessions.

Mobs are a different story. That can get dangerous very quick. I hope I never see this in my life, but if I did, I may very well resort to deadly force, if the law was on my side. That is a question each BURGLAR MUST ask themselves.....'is STEALING property worth my life?'

I can't make the decisions for them.

[tellner]

To nobody's great surprise it looks like this was a burglary coverup (http://www.kgw.com/news-local/stories/kgw_040108_news_craigslist_hoax_arrest.1fa31526.ht ml) from the beginning.


Police searched a computer that they owned and found evidence that linked them to the case, according to Sheriff Mike Winters with the Jackson County Sheriff's Office.



He said the couple had stolen saddles and other items from a garage on the Jacksonville property a few days earlier and created the Craigslist posting on March 22 as an elaborate plan to cover up their crime.

[sgtmac_46]

To nobody's great surprise it looks like this was a burglary coverup (http://www.kgw.com/news-local/stories/kgw_040108_news_craigslist_hoax_arrest.1fa31526.ht ml) from the beginning.

I am Jack's complete lack of surprise.

[thardey]

I am Jack's complete lack of surprise.

I am Jack's coffee spraying over my computer screen!

[sgtmac_46]

I am Jack's coffee spraying over my computer screen!
Excellent post....sir! ;)

[Andy Moynihan]

I am Jack's complete lack of surprise.


Some popular culture reference I must be missing?

[sgtmac_46]

Some popular culture reference I must be missing? Oh yeah!

I'd tell you.....but the first rule is that I can't talk about it! And the second rule is that I can't talk about it!

[Andy Moynihan]

AAH! Yes, I seeeee...........


Your name by any chance wouldn't be Robert Paulson, would it? :D

[sgtmac_46]

AAH! Yes, I seeeee...........


Your name by any chance wouldn't be Robert Paulson, would it? :D Do you know Tyler Durden?

[thardey]

Do you realize that I live with these gullible knotheads?

I've been trying very hard to keep this as a "what-if" scenario. But I can't anymore. I just realized I probably know some of the people who believed the ad and took the stuff. This isn't a large community, and the horse community is pretty small, as well. The sad part is that many people are still keeping the stuff, even though the news has gone out that it was a hoax. Yeech, I feel like I need a shower all of a sudden.

That said, I still think my original course of action would be the same. Pick a looter and tie him to the tree in front of my house. A zip-tie here, and a zip-tie there, and he'll be a nice scarecrow for the other looters.

I don't get the sense that it was a mob-thing, more of a "Free Garage Sale" mentality.

[tellner]

I suppose that hacking off his head and sticking it on a pike would attract flies.

[thardey]

Not this time of year . . . in the summertime, you would get yellowjackets!