Why Silat?

[Hawke]

Greetings and Salutations!

Why did you choose Silat (or why Silat chose you)?

Most of the people I have talked with already had training in a different MA before they studied Silat. Some schools combine Silat with others (FMA seems common).

What do you like about Silat?

With Respect
:asian:

[tellner]

Why did you choose Silat (or why Silat chose you)?

Most of the people I have talked with already had training in a different MA before they studied Silat. Some schools combine Silat with others (FMA seems common).

What do you like about Silat?

I had been a dojo bum for many years and first heard about Silat from Donn Draeger's books. It seemed fascinating. Later, my then-fiancee was in a JKD school that had a few seminars which included some Silat. When a teacher moved to town I had a choice between studying with him or staying with a local Modern Arnis teacher.

It was a very, very easy choice. Brandt knew what he was talking about and had made it work when large armed men didn't want him to stand up again. That's with his physical infirmities. The movements were natural. The attitude and techniques made sense. What wasn't to like?

Some time later my current teacher moved to the area. It was his skill and the recommendation of my first guru which were the deciding factors. The principles made sense. The way he fought came out of the principles and the curriculum. The quality of movement was excellent. It seemed efficient, pragmatic and deep.

Later other things came out, but that's what was attractive in the beginning.

[Bobbe]

I came to Pencak Silat later in the game, I was already training Wing Chun and Jiu Jitsu in my mid teens, and thought I knew everything. In South Carolina in the mid 80's, that wasn't a difficult thing to achieve.

I met my first Kali instructor next, LaVonne Martin. You may have heard of her, she's one of Dan Inosanto's top people. At the time (about 1987-88, I forget exactly) she was married to my Jiu Jitsu instructor in Sarasota Florida, Steve Roesnch. I used to drive 17 hours from Columbia to Sarasota just to train with him. I wasn't terribly interested in Kali at the time, and Pencak Silat was just too weird for me to comprehend. However, I took a few private classes with LaVonne since I was down there already (I wanted to make good use of my time) and she got me hooked on the sticks.

I've been a lost man ever since.

Through her I met Francis Fong. You can pretty much follow the bouncing ball from here: Fong -> Inosanto -> Suwanda(s) -> Petrilli -> any one who drifted through, around or near the Inosanto Academy.

I can't really say when it happened, but I eventually receded my training in most of the other arts I was in, and focused only on Kali and Pencak Silat.

Something I always coveted when I was younger was being a black belt. I felt a little annoyed at Pa Herman, because by the time I reached 3rd Degree in Jiu Jitsu...I just didn't care about it anymore. He had made the learning process more important to me than the piece of paper. I'm grateful to him as well...But I do look back on those days sometimes and say "What the hell was I thinking?!?"

You can also blame him for this non-conformist attitude I have when it comes to conventional martial arts attitudes and culture. He REALLY opened my eyes, and it wasn't until after his death that I truly started to appreciate what he gave out.

[infinite beginner]

Is it not impossible to proficiently practice many and yet retain claim to mastery of one

[doc D]

I had trained for years in a lot of the more standard fare ....wrestling, judo , American kenpo ,Shou Shu, Chinese Kempo, tae kwon do , hapkido, shotokan karate, ,Kyokushinkai, Jun Fan gung fu , etc, etc. I was training in Larry Hartsell's JKD Grappling association in the mid /late 80's as I recall .While in USAF Spec Ops , I spent some time in some interesting places overseas. At one of those locations, I also spent some time hanging out with a particular US Army Green Beret/ US Special Forces member who had also been a Tunnel Rat in Viet Nam. He was a Chinese style fighter who was pretty rough and tumble and had great footwork and body movement. He liked the Thai Boxers ,when he was in Thailand, because of the full contact work they did and he liked the Kali /escrima folks because of their weapon base, williness to train with live blade during their development and their attention to footwork. But he seemed most excited about the Pencak Silat people he had some contact with. He told me of a few times he ran across silat stylist in South East Asia . He said the first time he saw one in action , it really unnerved him. At that time ,he had done a lot of serious training but he did not feel it had prepared him for what he had seen take place in an altercation he witnessed. He did eventually make some friends within the silat community and learned a bit about their methods. He said he trained pretty hard to learn to deal with some of what they did. He told me that this focused training was probably what saved his hide one day when one of his team members was about to get in a scrap with a local who, he figured out,was a pesilat. He encouraged me to seek out any Pencak Silat teacher I might ever run across and try my hardest to get some training . Well, that pretty much put the bug in my ear. When I was in Texas, I heard Pendekar Herman Suwanda was conducting seminars within the region. I went to see him and had an absolutely wonderful training experience. His art seemed to have everything I wanted and seemed to exhibit the motions and skills my teacher/ friend had mentioned. Later, Bill Stutesman introduced me to Maha Guru Richard Crabbe De-Bordes and the experience was similarly exciting . The more I trained with my silat teachers, the more I saw the concepts and skills being developed that I had been working on when studying JKD, Jun Fan Gung Fu , Wu Wei, grappling, Muay Thai and Kali.There seemed to be a bit of redundancy in many respects. I decided to place my focus on the study of Pencak Silat and have been with the art ever since, with no regrets. One day my old friend came to to the DFW area and searched me out....he dropped by one day and saw me working with Dave Goodenow , one of my training buddies at the time. I just grinned and said he had nothing more to treach me, it was obvious I was getting what I needed from my silat teachers.

Of course , why I am with Silat is because it fits my needs and is the art most suitable for my particular way of moving ,as well as my psychological "worldview". I am certain many other folks have found similar satisfaction within their own non-silat arts. You just have to find one that you can make work for you in an effective manner and one that seems to meet all of your training needs. For me , it was Pencak Silat.
With Respect,
Doc D

[doc D]

Apologies.....In the previous post I misstyped "I " instead of "He" just grinned...
I can't seem to figure out how to edit the post and the mistake changes the flavor of the story. He really was pleased that I had found a silat teacher. His Kung Fu method was very heavy on what we would call Langkah in silat. He liked the fact I had finally learned to move a lot better !

Doc D

[pesilat]

I was born with crossed eyes and my vision development was somewhat screwy. Consequently I have poor depth perception. I started training TKD as a kid but at the kicking range I'm at a huge disadvantage because of my depth perception problems.

I moved from TKD to Okinawan Goju-Ryu and was more comfortable but still had issues caused by the depth perception.

When I was introduced to Silat - specifically from the de Thouars Serak lineage - it felt like I was coming home. That extreme close range where I'm able to rely more on tactile senses than on visual senses is great for me and, in fact, is what I had kind of fumbled my way toward. When I was introduced to Silat I thought, "Wow! People actually fight like this! This is what I've been groping in the dark trying to find for years!"

Mike

[Brian R. VanCise]

I love Silat and the movement fits perfectly with my training. Personally I love that close in manipulation and leg destructions. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon14.gif

[infinite beginner]

you can take the art out of the jungle but you can't take the jungle out of the art.the physics of the tiger, dexterity of the monkey ,the mesmorizing lightning strike's of the cobra.

[ben]

When I started I had never heard of silat or kuntao. I'd done about 8-12 months of karate and gotten bored. Then one day my dad (who was still doing karate at the time) called and told me I had to come and check out this class he had been to. He had gone because they advertised Tai Chi and he ended up sitting in on a silat class.

I was hooked right away. Not because of any particular movement or tech but because of the hands on application and the in depth explanation.

What keeps me coming back is the fluid, supple and explosive movement. The more I practice the better I feel. I am constantly learning something new and improving what I know. There'll be no more marching up and down the floor shouting kia for me.

[infinite beginner]

martial physics. no time for strengh no time for speed no time for time.

[jus_dann]

I came to Pencak Silat later in the game, I was already training Wing Chun and Jiu Jitsu in my mid teens, and thought I knew everything. In South Carolina in the mid 80's, that wasn't a difficult thing to achieve.

I met my first Kali instructor next, LaVonne Martin. You may have heard of her, she's one of Dan Inosanto's top people. At the time (about 1987-88, I forget exactly) she was married to my Jiu Jitsu instructor in Sarasota Florida, Steve Roesnch. I used to drive 17 hours from Columbia to Sarasota just to train with him. I wasn't terribly interested in Kali at the time, and Pencak Silat was just too weird for me to comprehend. However, I took a few private classes with LaVonne since I was down there already (I wanted to make good use of my time) and she got me hooked on the sticks.

I've been a lost man ever since.

Through her I met Francis Fong. You can pretty much follow the bouncing ball from here: Fong -> Inosanto -> Suwanda(s) -> Petrilli -> any one who drifted through, around or near the Inosanto Academy.

I can't really say when it happened, but I eventually receded my training in most of the other arts I was in, and focused only on Kali and Pencak Silat.

Something I always coveted when I was younger was being a black belt. I felt a little annoyed at Pa Herman, because by the time I reached 3rd Degree in Jiu Jitsu...I just didn't care about it anymore. He had made the learning process more important to me than the piece of paper. I'm grateful to him as well...But I do look back on those days sometimes and say "What the hell was I thinking?!?"

You can also blame him for this non-conformist attitude I have when it comes to conventional martial arts attitudes and culture. He REALLY opened my eyes, and it wasn't until after his death that I truly started to appreciate what he gave out.


I also found myself playing around in the "inosanto circle"
in reading this, i remember LaVonne busting my head open with some sarong work........can you say SHEWWWW! LOL

[jus_dann]

and with the 1st question,
why silat?
well after years of chinese training with a hit of FMA & Kuntao,
I really enjoyed the "all you can eat" with FMA and some silats just help me tie together the FMA with the CMA. just kinda felt natural

[infinite beginner]

silat is nothing if not an intense study of physical precision.Skill is not knowing how much damage you can inflict ,but how much damage you can evade and counter.For every one technique there must be a thousand counter's

[Copis]

11 years ago I moved to Denver.....I felt it would be foolish not to investigate the deThouars lineage. Bapak Willem deThouars lives a few minutes from my house.....the rest is my personal history. As a young Instructor under Willem I can honestly say that Silat has changed my life....

Bill Maniotes

[PG Michael B]

Why Silat? Quid pro quo...why not silat?

Silat is principal based with simplicity and intent as the guiding edge. It is also pertinent to know that Silat, especially those systems that come from Malaysia and Indonesia work off of the premise of Mustaqeen (the straight path)...many of the systems are steeped in Islam and trained in accordance with this in mind. The Silat I have trained was not the life long syllabus that most in the west are accustomed to, rather it is a short syllabus and can actually take a year or less to learn (learn not master). In south east Asia the people who study need it now, not tomorrow, so the lessons are tailored to fit into their every day life. This is what appeals to me. A straight forward methodology that bases it's content on simplicity with intent as opposed to rhetoric, dogma and theory only. I train and explore the Silat world for the love of the arts, the culture and the practicality of methodology, especially Baringingsakti Pencak Silat Harimau. This system fits well for me. Do not believe the hype when they say big men can not do Harimau...LOL...I know several, myself included that can prove that query dead wrong. Peace, salaam, shalom

PG Michael Blackgrave

www.bahadzubuwest.org

[infinite beginner]

take out the sport, the fair fighting, the rules of exchange and competition along with heavy value of muscle and speed
and most arts end, where silat just begin's

[infinite beginner]

//\\ //\\
\\// \\// even a strong breeze can sweep away equilibrium, if its from the right angle.

[infinite beginner]

jurus are just rote mindless stirking tools ,once you finally understand them

[infinite beginner]

Everyone of the same style get's the same generic jurus, yet no two fight the same. its how you can express the motion to the best of Your capabilties.

[infinite beginner]

you need forms before you can pour the foundation

[infinite beginner]

jurus instill a complete controlled awareness of all one's own motion.thru limiting your motions to forms you are also sectoring all motions out side the form you are allways drawing from the unlimited boundaries you create

[infinite beginner]

any time from any range at any pressure when the leg connects there's a sapu or biset opportunity.its geometric leg destruction

[infinite beginner]

The jurus only work, if you forget they are there .Every intent is a dangerous leap of faith.

[infinite beginner]

One must remain neutral to read the opponent

[masterfinger]

Plus opportunities such as Sapu, beset & puter kepala present themselves. If you "chase" it, it doesn't work.

Franco

[infinite beginner]

their first mistake is your first oppotunity.

[infinite beginner]

beggar is the winner, chooser is the loser.

[infinite beginner]

jurus are the heart derivative motions, from their vast applications,

[Doc_Jude]

He told me of a few times he ran across silat stylist in South East Asia . He said the first time he saw one in action , it really unnerved him. At that time ,he had done a lot of serious training but he did not feel it had prepared him for what he had seen take place in an altercation he witnessed.

Wow. That must be a very common experience for folks coming into Silat. It sure mirrors mine.
(not the SE Asia bit, but the general impression...)

[infinite beginner]

every strike is seen as a set up, every deflection to damage, stagger and shock.

[infinite beginner]

In the training the attacker can can do anything full force with intent to do maximum damage .The one being attacked never intentionally inflicts
injury in their response take down.

[infinite beginner]

first, you train your body with jurus, then thru time and guidance you learn to unlock the meanings in application.

[infinite beginner]

The reason for this precise repetition is to rise above it. what you first embrace you need to eventually despise

[infinite beginner]

every art is different, every style is different, every teacher is different every student is different.every understanding is different.every attack is one of a kind.

[infinite beginner]

train the impossible,to prepare for the unpredictable

[infinite beginner]

even the most realistic empty hand against blade training will only grant one a slight edge, depending on the intent and skill of the knife fighter.
difference between real and realistic is same as between real and non real

[infinite beginner]

there are no knife counters for some one who doesnt show thier knife.

[masterfinger]

OK IB, I can understand your wanting to convey your insights, but do they have to be in fortune cookie installments?

Franco

[infinite beginner]

Yes. Any one who think's they are prepared to dis arm a knife fighter
has false confidence.

[infinite beginner]

To deal with a knife you must be untouchable.

[infinite beginner]

because the knife is invisable.

[naneek]

why the

[naneek]

why the need for multiple short posts, wouldnt it be more efficient to post one longer one(although the posts are good ones)?

[infinite beginner]

In the big motion you find the small in the small you find the in between
these crucial motions.become the crux of training.a twist and a twitch replace a wave and a swing.Practice become's very subtle in a more perpetual sense.

[Bobbe]

In the big motion you find the small in the small you find the in between these crucial motions.become the crux of training.a twist and a twitch replace a wave and a swing.Practice become's very subtle in a more perpetual sense.

One must first look up to see down.

The path to enlightenment starts at the beginning.

"Bleem" is not a word.

Asian chicks in tight shorts are hot.

See, I can do that too, make up go-nowhere nonsensical sing-song fortune cookie quotes in an attempt to sound like I know what I'm talking about while thumbing my nose at those I deign beneath me.

But I draw the line at annoying an entire forum with multiple posts, as if what I had to say was so important I couldn't possibly put it all into one space.

[infinite beginner]

OK. The object is to do more with less.less means refinement.The elbow only has to move three inches to break bones.But you dont see three inch elbow's in jurus.

[infinite beginner]

I am the entire forum.And so are you when your title appear's as far as Im concerned Im writing for myself and I do know what Im talking about.
every word I write is undisputable.irrefutable, unquestionable.how's that.
no one has a lock on truth. attack the message not the messenger.

[infinite beginner]

mental distraction,sense deception,structural destruction.

[infinite beginner]

silat is street ,there's no time to care who is the better fighter.The psychology is as important as the technique's. you capture their attention with distraction, then you confuse their sense's with a series of strike's, since every strike can be countered every strike is a set up.then
while they are thinking about that you attack the leg's.

[infinite beginner]

jurus are pivot point's,there is only one juru when you shuffle them.

[Jimi]

So the 8 Juru's I learned over a decade ago are all just 1. *****, What about the Sambuts, And Lankas? Oh No! I was mislead. Teach me oh grand pooh bear. LOL. I love Mande Muda, Bukti Negara & even Maphilindo Silat. But I just read those names some where.

[infinite beginner]

exactly, if you can't put it together you have nothing .If you get attacked
how many jurus or sombuts are you going to use what motion's will you need .you wont know until the time. you have to flow from the 3rd motion from juru one to the 6 th of 5 to the 1st of 8 etc.. with out delay of thought, if your still counting 12345 instead of 42331 etc..then youve learned very little.

[Jimi]

Are you telling me I am counting wrong? Or you think I just don't understand Silat as well as you? I could say the same about JF/JKD. You must be able to flow from kwan sao to pak sao da to double jut sao to bong sao at will. How about TSD? You must flow from Pinon Two 3rd sequence to Kibon Four 6th sequence. Or Kajukenbo? You must flow from Ram Enters to Tiger Shreds Flesh without thought. Many arts have their base priciples & techniques set in a basic format like an alphabet before a person can free from it. This is not exclusive to Silat. I aboslutly respect many forms of Silat, Harimau being my favorite (Name my first cat HARIMAU and he lived up to the name). I am just not sure what infinite beginner is saying. Sorry man but it does sound like you are speaking in metafors & fortune cookie speak to sound informed. If I am wrong about you, my bad, but I am not the only poster to think this. Silat has incredible finishes that are even illegal in Shooto (Shoot wrestling) because of its efficient brutality. "I Present Myself To The Creator- ETC..."

[infinite beginner]

I am aware universal threads overlap,but I am only talking about silat, as I
understand it .Just searching for answer's like everyone else.

[Jimi]

Here is my answer to this threads question (Why Silat?) WHY NOT? LOL

[infinite beginner]

Juru's as I have learned are like interchangable socket's.if a set contains
7 jurus .you could fill a hundred phone book's with the combonation's
.If you only train in sequence you risk fighting in sequence.like comparing using an abacus to a calculator.silat take's a long time that's why those old master's are so good.they train their minds to work like fighting computers seeing 5 move's ahead.

[Jack Meower]

Bobbe said: "Asian chicks in tight shorts are hot."

I'll second that one. And that I can understand.

[infinite beginner]

Silat is silat ? there is no silat with out music and dance,flowing rhythm and broken timing forms the core.mad warrior dance that is embodied
in the handed down form's.Beyond this, system's and methods seem quite different

[Jimi]

Long ago in the distant future, from the shores of knowledge to the seas of mass confusion. I now see what you are saying infinite beginner. :)

[infinite beginner]

all the motions of silat are strange and unorthadox. the effects are just as strange and un expected its hard to see all that goes into just one motion.an elbow is a million things.and an elbow

[infinite beginner]

the ideal effect is to drop the attacker where they stand , in the shortest time, using the least motion.extra motion is extra time and extra power and one must be wisely sacrificed for the other.

[infinite beginner]

like lightning the opponent is never in the same place twice, making favoritism of technique difficult beyond demonstration.

[Jimi]

The Sapu's all have a life of their own. A moving foundation settles no roots. A moving root is never uprooted except by itself. Only when it wants to uproot another root. Wait a minute!?, now I am confused again! Ok, The elbow is a shield that strikes like a sword so never sharpen your sword when you can polish your shield. Oh, Wait. It is a sin not to remove your targets from your enemies reach, It is also a sin never to reach your opponents targets if he gifts them to you. Always Lightning before Thunder. Always shield before sword. Always rice before lumpia:) I hope I am getting to understand infinite beginner. PEACE

[infinite beginner]

if in the middle of any technique there is a knee or an elbow that is the real end of the technique.but only if you are rooted in movement.

[Jimi]

But sadly a trees roots can not step or slide or pivot, although mine can. Step, pivot & switch and my enemies fall like toppling trees. Get it? LANKA! LOL. Silat is all.

[infinite beginner]

Silat is a deadly art,in training one must be very careful or very skilled

[Jimi]

Is that to say that Kali is not? Or that Krabi Krabong is not? Silat is only as deadly as those who train it. To contradict my previous statement, SILAT is not all. A Filipino stick choke can kill (If applied long enough) just as effectively as a Silat Puter Kapala wrenching to a neck break. I too love Silat infinite beginner, but you have not given me any insight beyond one who has read about Silat. I have shaken hands with Herman Suwanda (Rest In Peace) & have been tied in knots by Dan Inosanto (Also Paula Inosanto for that matter). Bukti Negara, Mande Muda & MaPhilIndo Silat have been engraved upon my heart. Give us some other insight than that sounding like fortune cookie speak. I expect an answer that will sound as if spoken by the Abbott of Shaoilin itself. I am not taking Silat lightly at all, and I love it's beautiful skills, but to speak like you have posted does not give me any real reason to think you have realy trained it. I could say, Krabi Krabong is a dealdy art, in training one must be very careful or very skilled. LOL. Now I expect an answer like "I understand about universal overlap" I am hoping to draw a response that will show me that you have something real about Silat to discuss. A HOUNDRED QUESTIONS WILL ONLY ELICIT A THOUSAND MORE. LOL. Engraved upon my heart until the end. PEACE JIMI

[infinite beginner]

Are you related to lewis carrol ?If not you should consider children's fiction

[infinite beginner]

talk is cheap written word's cheaper the last thing I want to do is prove anything.my words are up for all to see and make of them what they will

[infinite beginner]

Silat is many things to many people perhaps the most diversified of any art cause style's differed from tribe to tribe island to island.Its an ancient warriors art preserved and passed down .its not something you would want your worst enemy out there to have deep insights into,or even for those you dont personally know and trust.

[Jimi]

What do you think of Silat entries? Have you anything to discuss on that, or am I an enemy you don't trust with your insights of centuries old arts preserved and passed down? (With my years in Silat & other Inosanto curriculum arts, I see how you must think I am gonna pick your brain here on this forum for the secrets of Silat) I was trying to see if you wanted to discuss Silat or preach. With the way you just posted, you gave me the insight I was looking for. I have no issue with wether or not you have trained much in Silat, just wanted to see your purpose in posting. Now you are not preaching just Silat, but preaching to the choir. Not asking to be THANKED on this forum, just wanted clear discussion, not vague statements sounding like insight. Start discussing Silat and you will find I am not so uptight. :) Waiting for something substantial to discuss.

[infinite beginner]

Look ,aren't we are all face less paper tigers ,in computerland. that said. 99.9 % of the art is entry you might have a big house but with out the keys your locked out.

[infinite beginner]

Every technique is flawed by unexpected response.the ultimate ideal is to become unlimited in your motion the jurus provide a platform and a passageway of constantly discovering and eliminating limitations.

[infinite beginner]

silat does not block. instead there is deflection so that the other absorb's the shock. it takes very little energy to deflect, you steal and direct the force upon contact then continue a striking line.

[zeeberex]

silat does not block. instead there is deflection so that the other absorb's the shock. it takes very little energy to deflect, you steal and direct the force upon contact then continue a striking line.

someone made a post about deflecting the punch, my reponse was along this line of thought

[masterfinger]

Look , 1. aren't we are all face less paper tigers ,in computerland. that said. 2. 99.9 % of the art is entry you might have a big house but with out the keys your locked out.

1. Speak for yourself. Some spend more time training than in computerland posting fortune cookie quotes.
2. Wrong again. All phases should be equal. If your follow through is weak, your entry is useless.

:asian:
Franco

[infinite beginner]

entry is everything the rest is hallucination.I guess its not important if you dont mind getting punched in the face while your closing range .its all a matter of perspective to each his own.

[masterfinger]

entry is everything the rest is hallucination.

To put it as eloquently as possible, I am flabbergasted at the complete and total anally inserted cranium directed logic of that statement :barf:, thus making complete sense of the experience & stature of your username.
Have a nice day,

Franco

[infinite beginner]

then you agree with the second statement

[infinite beginner]

no two techniques are the same.for example the puter kapala etc doesnt really exist each time it must be created anew and given random circumstances it wont be created the exact way twice.when you enter what is it you are entering into ? .everything

[infinite beginner]

It's not enough to break the balance,you need to take the balance
Balance is the center.you steer them like a bicycle.

[infinite beginner]

In silat there is no left and right there is the four directions

[ben]

In silat there is no left and right there is the four directions

Only 4?

[infinite beginner]

Im speaking of structure the concept is always 360 degrees If your structure can cover and occupy more than four directions at one time then you dont need silat.or anything.sure its possible to hit any line from any position but to strike with full power we are limited by structure.

[infinite beginner]

Physics, a science that deals with matter and motion. Merriam-Webster

[ben]

...the concept is always 360 degrees...
Only 360?


to strike with full power we are limited by structure.
only when you're using structure to generate power.

[infinite beginner]

It would seem that unless you are a chicken or a spider you never know
what is coming behind you.I say we are responsible for 360 but are lucky to take in more than 180.and when we need to turn we are trading one 180 blind spot for another.360 is imperceptible it is a term of awareness
for how well the structure is loaded to cover that perpetual blind spot.

[infinite beginner]

Structure. something made up of interdependent parts in a definite pattern of organization.M.W.Structure is what lets you strike like lightning!

[ben]

It would seem that unless you are a chicken or a spider you never know
what is coming behind you.

you never know what's behind you?

why?

[infinite beginner]

You never know whats behind you,unless you always know what's behind you.

[Jimi]

What Clarity:) Though I dislike this guys ecsentric speak, the points are valid, but not exclusive to Silat. Keep engaging him Ben, he might spit out something of use. PEACE

[infinite beginner]

thru all the eccentricity Im glad its simple enough you can understand it.and that,s exactly what I write clear valid useless points.

[Jimi]

Have a safe Holiday Season. PEACE

[kuntawguro]

thru all the eccentricity Im glad its simple enough you can understand it.and that,s exactly what I write clear valid useless points.

AHA!
Now please stop posting 1 liners 4 in a row- if you have something of "Value" to share please do, just don't play Mr. Miyagi with us- we don't need that- it is annoying to say the least.

[infinite beginner]

your passive annoyance doesnt impress me there's no value in saying nothing We are talking silat Now, You say something of value to the art.

[ben]

You never know whats behind you,unless you always know what's behind you.

Now that's just silly.
You may never know whats behind you unless you always do.

But If I pay attention then I know whats behind me. If I don't then I don't.

It's easer if I remember my glasses. :)
http://www.amazon.com/Rearview-Spy-Glasses-Mirror-Vision/dp/B000NPGMHM

[Jdokan]

Now that's just silly.
You may never know whats behind you unless you always do.

But If I pay attention then I know whats behind me. If I don't then I don't.

It's easer if I remember my glasses. :)
http://www.amazon.com/Rearview-Spy-Glasses-Mirror-Vision/dp/B000NPGMHM
typically just an ass... but...why I came to this post...
I started with Silat in Feb of this year, I wanted to better develop my skill sets with both blade & stick....

[infinite beginner]

if you have rear view mirrors on your glasses then I believe you can always see behind you .silat is a multiple opponent art why do you think they are always looking around.why are the juru motions so wide not for one person.no one has their own back.remember that.know that it is your worst weakness.

[infinite beginner]

okay, say your surounded, they all attack at once, thats silat.you strike in 4 directions because by physical design you only have 4 sides to defend and protect .you intercept on those lines you worry about those lines you maintain defense thru cutting and carving your own lines not theirs.

[ben]

If you don't have your own back then who does? Not one of the attackers surrounding you I hope.

Only 4 directions again?

Which four are you referring to?

I don't see how 4 directions can fully encompass the complexity of movement within a 3 dimensional space.

Maybe you could explain in more detail?

[infinite beginner]

front center point, back center point side shoulder points.for striking when you turn to defend you back your back is still behind you.what is the one behind you going to do you dont want know you hit them first.

[infinite beginner]

we are also limited by our strenghs ,for example you could try bench pressing with your arms crossed, but physics says, use a very light weight because you are structuraly weak.we dont want to be limited we just are and the sooner the limits are understood the more unlimited we become.

[ben]

so that's left, right, forward, and back. What about up and down. Or a sort of leftward 45 with a downward arc and a counterclockwise upward corkscrew at the end.

[infinite beginner]

no ,its the center everything is center related you could take any point draw diagonal lines and circles to the moon but the source is the center.

[infinite beginner]

incidentally I am in concurrance with your example's.

[infinite beginner]

45 degrees is that in slanted referrence to your shoulder or to your center.though its one flow, its actually two distict motions that could just as easy break to go clock wise striking up as the body is being buckled.also in between a sweep or a knee should be added

[infinite beginner]

In silat, the hand and foot coordinate in two extreemly distinguished time dimensions.

[infinite beginner]

jurus are a language of coded motion. fluency requires skill.

[infinite beginner]

hypothetically,you can know the alphabit backwards and forwards up and down sideways and diagonal. in the ruins of repetition you might even acidentally spell a word.but all you have is letters if all you have is motions.

[infinite beginner]

Everything you do either buys you a moment or costs you a moment.the principles transcend styles. hard wired awareness of the moment has no
substitute.response should be direct to their reaction.

[infinite beginner]

always strike in the moment, the best technique's always come from striking, as always I could be wrong

[infinite beginner]

I like it better over here ,If you contort your structure just right you can produce powerfull kicks while doing hand techniques, while in motion

[infinite beginner]

silat uses circular velocity in energy gathering motions making its own momentum

[redantstyle]

45 degrees is that in slanted referrence to your shoulder or to your center.though its one flow, its actually two distict motions that could just as easy break to go clock wise striking up as the body is being buckled.also in between a sweep or a knee should be added

45 degrees refers to alot of things, but in the context you are using, it refers to angular stability. force should be used at a '45 degree angle' relative to the ground through the opponent's center. the correct angle will have a tendancy to 'pin' or 'float' the opponent. in other words, if you 'flatten out' to much on your angle you will either push him away, or pull him forward, allowing him to step to regain balance. a bit part of it making sure your force is vectored through his dantien, though personally i prefer to target the mingmen as a focal point. in this way you are attacking his core and compressing it at an angle that makes it a bit more difficult for him to find the escaping step, i.e. rebalance.

regards.

[infinite beginner]

Extreemly valid points well taken .I see 45 as kind of a generic term the question really is, using the right pressure, at the right degree.alot of specifics are involved .but ultimately all foreward force must have an opposite effect to bring them to you as you close in and direct them on your chosen angle.

[redantstyle]

i find this is usually provided by autonomic response to the initial touch or impact. some part will pitch forward and can be grasped to provide the opposite leverage. if the leg comes forward, it's trapped one way or another. as you said, many details and it's very situational.

the '45 degree' compression is the linear component and primarily serves to misalign the vertical column of the body.

the oppositional leverage is used to 'break the waist' or induce whatever degree of twist is necessary to completely break the structure/balance. with that done, it is easy to guide the body down.



regards.

[infinite beginner]

that could explain why is works so well.cause effects physics , steep geometry, internal physiology

[redantstyle]

timing is crucial. you have to be fast to interrupt his movements, so they are not completed. if you allow someone to take their chosen step and establish footing, you will have to contend with their strength.

however, if you can catch them mid-stride, they will be very weak because of they are off-balance when moving. this is a major tactic and just part of the rationale for the footwork focus in training. mastering your footwork, and coming to understand what it takes, and what can be done from any position, is crucial to being able to cut another's steps.

regards.

[redantstyle]

I like it better over here ,If you contort your structure just right you can produce powerfull kicks while doing hand techniques, while in motion

the hands are used not only to guard the body, but also to provide a counterbalance to the kicking action. if you dont use your hands (read arms and torso) to compliment the kick, it will be much weaker. bringing the arms into play on a kicking technique makes it a 'whole body' motion. simply because all of your muscles are moving into the strike.

in particular, i use an arm scissor to do this, and the scissors may also be used to execute various hand techniques, if in the appropriate range. a fine technique is to use the breaking angles to cause him to pitch into your rising kick. this can make for a very heavy impact due to the combined momentums.

regards.

[infinite beginner]

ballance and counter ballance, as if the force of compensation is compounded by the torque generated from the core. these are like pre reflex actions ,when the foot go's up, the arm wants to go out any way.
so why not beat the response, use that energy for an intended strike on another line.the weights and measure vary depending on which kick you do .for entering i say kick but mostly i want to say knee, most kicks start with a knee, like alot srikes start from an elbow. before I was refering to
a very tight diagonal kick that can act as an advancing weapon and doesnt interfere with upward stability. target can be head to toe striking surface the whole leg

[infinite beginner]

every big word,is just alot of small words. an advanced technique is only advanced ability, skill and timing.with this every technique is always advanced.its skill before style not style before skill. your skill is your style

[infinite beginner]

silat is an art of harmony, its practioners are relaxed, focused on their breathing and the flow of thier energy, always yielding ,always inviting,always touching with out attatchment, always conected with out commitment.moving with freedom of choice, led only by awareness of
an endless moment.

[infinite beginner]

one thing for sure ,you can't be tense or up tight and do silat. its physiologicaly imposable.calmness of mind body and spirit,a one ness with internal conflicts and imperfections.realizing there is no perfection just hard earned self improvements.and it does take a clairity of mind ,to begin to process all the possibilities that the jurus can present.and it takes almost a physicians knowledge to fully understand their effects.could describe it myself as a joyfull journey into a very deep and philosophical martial art.

[infinite beginner]

silat is kind of like ,THAI BOXING wraped in a dance then twisted into a pretzle.fierce and gracious,like tigers in lotus

[Jimi]

Soooo Beautiful, Sleepy now. Your statement about touching with out attachment. How do you explain the Mande Muda Crying on the Shoulder position (Before an arm bar & set of Sapus) from a crashing entry? A lot of what you post is not descriptive enough for someone like me with only say 15 years or so in Silat. I was always taught to press in & attach. Wether or not you answer with a poem (Fortune Cookie Speak) or not, if it adresses the question, I would be pleased to discuss. Not an attack man, just wanna discuss on a lower level of written communication. Ya know down here where I am. LOL. PEACE

[infinite beginner]

hah, grappling is attatchment,silat is more of an over shaddowing.if your crying on someones shoiulder Jimi its probably cause they got you in a headlock.when you grab them theyve got you too.why they say that, is to your use your head like an ahchor .its the downward weight pressure from your head on their shoulder I guess if you were to bite them at that point there would be valid attatchment.again its semantics attached implies being at a fixed position in time.their is no time for the term in silat.if it happens its a mistake.we dont grapple.

[infinite beginner]

I write in efin unfinished thought.what you want to focus on is the pressure and angle. catch and release, attatch and repell not attatchment your presence should be almost ghostly in perpetual transition.

[infinite beginner]

, repell them at the ground or another attacker .didnt mean repel yourself backwards.that should help.

[redantstyle]

hmmm...

Jimi has an excellent point.

the technique of crash advancing off balance is used to physically displace the opponent a bit. you 'steal' his balance by 'bouncing' off him slightly and gets knocked out of position. end result is you are now balanced and driving, and he is moving back or down and is off both balance and structure.

[infinite beginner]

Ah, but do we really want to move them back?,seems too easy for them to knee or kick etc..isnt better to make em go to one side or the other. throw their head into an elbow.why just move them when you can bring them into something? cross up their footing in the process.maybe Im missing your point.

[infinite beginner]

the funny thing is how many options at every juncture just two arms two legs two shoulders a million things you can do.in the space of a few feet.
yeah you bump em they move back a bit as you close as long as you can close faster than they are moving back its still your time not theirs.

[Jimi]

I agree that to always press them back is not always the best per condition or situation. But to say pushing them back can allow them to knee or kick, is not something I can agree with. In Bama Lethwei & Muay Thai, pressing in a clinch makes it difficult for them to do either a kick or knee. A lot of Silat finishes that I have seen do grapple, right to the ground, though most are to finish a guy then move on, not dry humping like in UFC. I can appreciate your points Infinite Beginner, I hope you can see mine too. PEACE

[infinite beginner]

A good portion of silat is ground fighting nothing wrong with following them to the ground.and a clinch situation the compression can kill the kicks
no problem with that.but thats more of a mutual nuetralization.not a real good silat scenario to be in ,but good to know how to counter it.also if your going to bump them back, its better fire a strike on the way that will disturb and distort their structure toward a foreward or sideways angle.so the bump is ten fold intensified.if your a little off ballance and someone bumps into you its like a battering ram.

[Jimi]

I agree. Although I figured strikes throughout an entry is taken for typical. Every Step a Kick or Knee, Every Knee or Kick a Step. I also like a good shin lever if the guy is strong of leg, my Luar Sapu Dalem can shin lever him right down. This discussion I like. PEACE Infinite Beginner.

[infinite beginner]

Typically two entering strikes .one to occupy,distract etc if it connects fine if it doesnt,fine , main purpose is a set up ,so as .to let the second strike slip under the radar.Its purpose is desruction and meticulous ,precision manipulation.this determines the level of stability they will have once you' ve closed range.which in turn determines the amount of effort needed to execute any technique.

[infinite beginner]

your only as good as the expectations of your teachers,silat is an internal
art its not meant to be gone thru or ever completed its a circle of straight lines that go on forever.no half way point will meet you on the path.its fighting yoga .all you gather and dont use you will lose. the jurus keep EVERYTHING alive. one juru motion should instantly reference a dozen techniques.

[Glycerine0160]

This material is by far the greatest, most philosophical fighting material I have ever heard. I need to find myself a silat school. I want to learn how to use this concept of continuous strikes with balance etc. My school has a mix of jkd/kali/silat in it, but I just really want to devote my teachings to primarily this stuff and I want a teacher who can thoroughly go into debt with the patterns and movements like you have hear.

Great stuff.

[redantstyle]

Ah, but do we really want to move them back

the displacement is slight. i was going to use the term bump, but that doesnt really address it very well either. cutting is another term that is used for this, i think.

and they wont move back, regardless, because you have your hands on them.

[Glycerine0160]

redant and infinte, what states do you live in?

Also, where did your teachers get their certifications?
(were they born in the US)


I am just curious because you both seem to have such precise knowledge on the art.

[infinite beginner]

what I spoke of is more of a formula, of course theres no rules in fighting at the end of the day its all just highly refined common sense.

[infinite beginner]

even a question like, how many ways can you grab a wrist?To the ordinary person the question seems simple ,to the martial artist it is profound.

[doc D]

I'm not on here much anymore. Glycerine, what state are YOU in? I know some reputable instructors around and about.
Doc D
Dallas Tx

[infinite beginner]

there are different gear mode shifts in timing. the set ups are lightning fast ,hands must flow like water.

[infinite beginner]

when you first start silat you want to go fast and they make you go slow
then after a while you want to go slow and they make you go fast.thats why I say look for any excuse to relate what you are doing to silat take a small piece of any juru motion and carry it around all day PRACTICE small moves when you cant PRACTICE big moves.your body is the vehicle of the art.and its the source of all your super silat powers.

[infinite beginner]

a good teacher will give you a few things in a short time that you will practice a life time.many teachers are just great fighters who promise their students
they can transfer their skills.skill must come from with in,only guidence can come from with out.

[infinite beginner]

silat is the opposite of shortcut self defense.for every one good technique you learn, you have to be responsible for a hundred kinds of counters, in order to fully trust your life to the technique.what technique is worth your life?

[infinite beginner]

one word,flexibility,something that come's natural to the indigenous practitioner,is for many, a great hurdle to achieve,often a lengthy prerequisite to enter into the art.wrist and hip flexibility are taken
to extreemes.also you have to be universally flexible to ride out the sharp pulls and twists used in whiplash techniques.

[infinite beginner]

using a car analogy,one arm could be seen as the accelerator/brake/steering wheel.and the other the grill and bumper.

[redantstyle]

many teachers are just great fighters who promise their students
they can transfer their skills

indeed.


using a car analogy,one arm could be seen as the accelerator/brake/steering wheel.and the other the grill and bumper.

lost me there...

[infinite beginner]

I was affraid of that, allow me to reiterate.In jurus usually both hands are in motion, yet mostly one hand or the other is strilking at any given instant.The other hand/arm has to be doing something.One of the things it can be doing is guiding or steering the strike.Take the single stick as an extreem example, how the empty hand is always in play, reinforcing and changing the angle and force of the swing or strike.that same principle you see in x block/strike,jurus motions.thats the principle Im drawing reference to.

[Glycerine0160]

I need to phrase you into a calendar. Have a new note for everyday. Might give my day the kind of inspiration it may lack.

[infinite beginner]

silat is a point blank system.In real time application you could never see how it works,For demonstration the motions have been widened and watered down ,so you can see the strikes.In reality,the strikes are so close, fast and connected it looks like an invisible art.

[infinite beginner]

since every strike will either extend or compress the opponent the flow of the jurus is meant to intercept intersect.a good close range strike at medium level will bring the head racing down to meet an elbow racing up etc...

[infinite beginner]

The facts of silat are simple and hard to master.simple is simple but understanding is never simple.simplicity is always at the heart of the complex.to simplify fighting is imposable .always strive to do the impossible.or ? to make what isnt, "is".

[infinite beginner]

Is it best to most focus on converting weaknesses into strenghs or to focus on making present strenghs into super strenghs?I tend to lean towards the latter.for example if a low reverse cresent kick or a spinning reverse elbow is the thing you naturally do best and you really develope that according to the art. in this way you are bringing and offering your
best and adding more to the art instead of always of trying to take,take, take.

[infinite beginner]

And most importantly, when I speak for everyone Im speaking only for myself mostly.

[infinite beginner]

to put it simply, there is hand work and there is foot work two completely seperate things.no relation.a hip is not a shoulder leg is not an arm you
can not grab with your toes good pinch at best.how the f can these fall together.How can you get 100 percent power,efficiency and accuracy from both, at the same timing.the missing key ,is that which makes it possible to punch full blast in any direction with out inhibiting the ability the simultaineously kick full blast in any direction.

[infinite beginner]

that is the algebra of silat. labeling and defining the unknown

[infinite beginner]

All comparative dialogue inevitably dissolve's into feuding discordance over detail.

[infinite beginner]

people dont scrap like the old times your almost as likely to get shot
as you are to get punched silat not meant to be sport in training its like you fire blanks your not going to hit the groin hook the arm and elbow your training partner in the back of the head as you break both their
legs

[infinite beginner]

one thing ,when I say blanks, I dont mean punch the air.In training strike's should have some contact and or placement.It takes skill to do this in real time, minus critical injuries.in training the emphasis is on precision over power.its harder to nick the bulls eye then to hit it dead on

[ChingChuan]

Perhaps this is a stupid question... but why are you so keen on filling a topic all by yourself?

[infinite beginner]

No stupid questions only stupid answers.here's mine, at this point Im not looking to add to my knowledge so much as to try to add to the understanding of what I know and study at the moment. .its interesting to discover new things but I believe the foundation must be deep rooted embracing the basics as the core of the art.In other words when there is no disconnect between the most basic and most complex advanced,you have foundation.what was your question again?some one else write something.attack anything you disagree with.

[infinite beginner]

Im just firing loaded rhetorical targets into the wind.

[infinite beginner]

If you stand with arms out stretched in front and make vertical fist's gradually expanding arms opening and closing hands ,peripheral vision will blur into visualization where its not clear if you see your hands move or you think you see your hands move.a good drill to train peripheral ability.

[infinite beginner]

The hardest part is how to put all your knowledge together into one moment.thats why its not easy to dabble excessively and relate the
material on command as the moment demands.

[infinite beginner]

no where is timing so meticulously executed as in the art of trapping

[infinite beginner]

To do silat takes a really good imagination in motion.thru practice and progress injury and healing you learn the body is far more complex and far harder to understand in one life time than all martial arts combined.in other words its higher purpose is to help explain what you are.

[infinite beginner]

this alone seems reason enough to show honor and appreciation for all
martial arts.

[infinite beginner]

It seems the body is limited in the efficiency of motion but the efficiency is unlimited.

[Carol]

It seems the body is limited in the efficiency of motion but the efficiency is unlimited.

Profound statement, but quite true :asian:

[infinite beginner]

why do jurus look so strange?To learn a foreign language, first you must have a native language to translate and incorporate back to.The new must be an extention of the old.in other words in silat a bridge must be constructed backwards ,there is no reference to extend.you must make your own language.

[infinite beginner]

if much of what I write seems confusing, its because I find silat is confusing, much of its stratagy is to confuse.as for jurus ,until you know the reason for all those crazy motions, then they are just that.

[infinite beginner]

Its my guess why jurus look so strange, is because of the multi task function of each motion.any normal looking motion would be too limited

[infinite beginner]

if all words are variations of the abc's.all than all motion is a variation of the jurus

[redantstyle]

Its my guess why jurus look so strange, is because of the multi task function of each motion.any normal looking motion would be too limited

as well, many of the applications are short power and leverage blocks. performed solo, these motions often appear a bit odd or even useless.

[infinite beginner]

put it this way,jurus are two faced, one practice, one combative application.the two barely resemble one another.one is a handfull of fixed motions the other is everything you know.

[infinite beginner]

If the first thing you do works that is luck if the second works that is technique if the third works that is skill,?

[tellner]

IB, would you please, for the love of the gods give it a rest? You're not offering any insights. You're not saying anything useful. Nobody wants to hear what you're saying. Mostly what you're doing is making a fool of yourself in an echo chamber.

[infinite beginner]

maybe not to an expert like you Teller,Im offering oppurtunity for insights thats more than you.look at my words Im not trying to shroud you in universal illumination Im just lighting fires.in the darkness put em out feed em I dont give a sht.

[destructautomaton]

I thought tellner brought up a good point. Your posts are more cryptic and kwai chai cane than enlightening. If you made a more detailed, thought out post once in awhile then get feedback you might get some better feedback. The one liners are not that enlightening but to each his own. sometimes less is more but you need to explain more and post less. Just my two cents.

[infinite beginner]

I will make you a deal I will write something and if no one reads it I will stop.but first give a definition of this great martial equanimity you must possess ,by example

[destructautomaton]

with your great supposed intelligence, you are missing the point, write a detailed post rather two lines of gibberish. we'd all appreciate that more.

[infinite beginner]

I dont mean to be cryptic,but this is a fighting forum! fact or fiction.If people were so infuriated like teller is, than some wave of attack would follow every letter typed.scream your peace.

[infinite beginner]

sorry

[infinite beginner]

I didnt know you jumped on I meant the message for the last guy one fight at a time.

[infinite beginner]

take a number

[infinite beginner]

silat is a short art that takes a long lifetime to learn, my words are short but they are not simple.

[tellner]

Infuriated? No.
Fed up with your infinite self importance and gibberish? Yes.

So far you haven't contributed anything useful or even entertaining.

[infinite beginner]

excuuuuuzz me! I dont amuse you maybe Id rather confuse you.maybe you just can't handle the truth,maybe your waiting for your teacher show you the truth, maybe your resentful for not having the physique for real silat.

[redantstyle]

what makes tellner an expert?

and beyond that, why dont you two mind your own business?

you no likee thread, you no clikee link.

JMBarr
Liu Seong Gung Fu
aka ktk

[tellner]

I'm not an expert, but I can read and comprehend. These fortune cookies add no new information. They don't shed any light at all on Silat. In fact, they make simple, straightforward things appear to be mystic B.S.

Go back and re-read your Hans Christian Andersen. Start with The Emperor's New Clothes

[infinite beginner]

most importantly martial arts teach the physics of the body the jurus are designed to exercise those physics.the physics is turned into fighting, not the other way around.you fight as the weapon dictates.you fight the jurus fight because it pushes and exploits human physics to an extreem.why do jurus motions of distant systems bear so much resembance?intricacies vary but there a stream of sameness that runs thru it.and I guarantee you any style old school jungle silat fighter of centuries past would be a force to reckon with never seen.

[doc D]

Initially, this thread, I believe , was focused on why you came to practice silat versus other arts. Perhaps what frustrates some of the readers is that it has transformed into an "Esoteric Musings on the Art of Silat" thread.....which would probably be a fine thread for those who want more of that. Some people like esoteric philosophical discussion....others prefer direct , pragmatic ,specific analytical discussion that is less "poetic". Maybe a different thread dedicated to the former would be better. Obviously ,some find the current flavor of this thread tedious while others enjoy it.
I always think that when you come on and post , it's nice to introduce one's self rather than remain enigmatic , especially if you want to post considerable amount of opinion and discussion. It helps others understand one's perspective , experience level, cultural background and from where you are bringing forth your opinions and observations . "Knowing your audience " also allows you to choose the best way to communicate your observations to them. Myself, I am based in Dallas Tx . I've studied silat here in USA and abroad and work in Pencak Silat Mande Muda, Silat Minangkabau Harimau and Silat Seni Kuntau Tekpi. I've trained in numerous other arts , including Maphilindo Silat , JKD, Filipino Kali /Escrima methods , Military science and also have minor exposure to Silat Amerindo.
I'd love to know the background (s) of Infinite Beginner and some of the other participants on this thread, merely out of curiousity. Infinite Beginner, this might help some of the readers place your sentences in a better perspective , rather than simply viewing them as overly poetic and obscure . Just a thought.

With Respect,
Doc D

[infinite beginner]

Direct, .
pragmatic,
specific,
analytical

[infinite beginner]

Words of a silat man.

[Master K]

Infinte Beginner,

It would appear that some people enjoy your musings, while others do not. If I may make a suggestion...perhaps you could start a thread for your musings as opposed to continuing to post your musings on this thread. Another option would be to start a blog regarding Silat and your take on the information that has been handed down to you as well as how you perceive the information to aid you in your studying of the style.

Please do not view this as an attack, as it is not. I originally started to read this thread for the reason of the title, "Why Silat?" and it is clear that this thread is a wee bit off topic at this point.

Respectfully,
Master K.

[infinite beginner]

"abandon hope all yee that enter here" this thread kinda unwound if you want to tie it back together have at it.

[doc D]

Well, in the interest of tying it all back together, why not let us know a bit about you....What style of pencak silat you practice, where you learned it , how long you have been training in it and how you came to study it rather than one of the many other martial art styles that are out there. Was it hard to find a teacher in your area? Easy?

With Respect

Doc D

[infinite beginner]

It all to do with why I like this art. one thing is damn fun. Never has anything exhausted so much effort to do something effortlessly.Its
like you walk in the door and see someone walking on a tight rope
and they make it look easy.and then you try it after a few years
you might make it across and then the wire is raised and you take the same skills you learned on the low wire and you walk across the high wire the only thing that changes ,is the danger.

[infinite beginner]

The hardest part is the measure of too little or too much.measure of distance, measure of pressure,measure of timing,measure of ballance,measure of force,measure of resistance

[infinite beginner]

What some call silat others call martial science.Human genius finds its way thru every culture.thru spiritual beliefs,nature, hunting, warfare, feasting, art,music and dance,all seen as one thing conected inseparable silat evolved.or to put it this way how can you seperate the art from the culture with out affecting both.

[infinite beginner]

Like Jim Morrison says "Dance on fire"," Untill The End"You have to hear the silat music of your style in the back of your mind when you train.

[infinite beginner]

There is almost a symbiotic battle between the music and the dance
as if the musicians were trying to throw off the dancers, to challenge them always breaking their timing.

[infinite beginner]

when every jurus feels like the same move you know your art, but the hardest part is finding enough pieces to put it all together with out bastardizing mixing systems twisting traditions.you dont learn technique you are technique.you move in head to toe sychronicity,and since it is a full body response, it shouldn't much matter which jurus that you choose.against any attack.you move like an animal, as one ,aware of all your weapons and weaknesses at once.your mind is clear with out fear.
only pure awareness and cautious confidence

[infinite beginner]

fear comes in many forms could courage exist with out fear.fear is always
ready to fight you like a perpetual opponent with in that never surrenders.physical fear thrives on tension create's division in motion
and seperations in timing.The problem is silat wont work unless you are
calm and relaxed no chi etc...it as much mastery of emotional management as physical discipine.if you are calm, confident in your matterial and focused it will increase your skills tenfold

[Tensei85]

Based on my limited training in the following Silat Serak & Haramurti Silat.

Take note, I train when ever possible but my interactions were limited.

But I've always had a lot of respect for the various styles of Silat, the techniques are perfectly applicable to virtually every scenario.

The training was truly awesome as well!

Its definitely something that one day I would like to persue in more detail.

[infinite beginner]

silat is like a huge umbrella .of all the arts, it might be the most impossible to define,certainly the most mysterious and misunderstood.under the premise that there are many many varieties of silat practitioners viewing sights like this the objective has been to boast generalities in order shed light and discover similarities.Im trying to provoke contradiction.your silat is not my silat even if we have the same teacher. to refine skills you must personalize them. this the way Ive been taught to look at it

[Glycerine0160]

I probably won't be doing it this summer, maybe next summer. But definitely once I get my Bachelors degree I want to spend some time to train elsewhere.

The place I am at right now doesn't really offer the more intense training one would really desire. The price is quite the bargain, but in my 18-20 months of training, I feel its time to start taking things seriously. (we probably train 10-20% in our training, and our sparring is probably about 50% while pulling almost everything off the punches and kicks)

I'm looking for a silat or silat/kali mixture.
ATM my school is (jkd, kali, silat)

My one friend told me he knows this great place in minnesota if I'd be willing to live out there (I'm from jersey)

Obviously Cali would be great with inosanto out there and all, but I'd prefer a relatively closer place and wouldn't mind a cheaper standard of living while im out there. (despite jersey and cali are similar in that regard)


My friend said his personal opinion is he likes learning in a mixed silat environment, although he has been to places with one strict type and said they were good.
I don't really have thoughts on this, perhaps maybe someone here can offer that.

But out of all the knowledge anyone has here about a great place to train, what would your insight be on that? What would be your favorite suggestion for a place to learn silat?

[doc D]

You can find some Pencak Silat Mande Muda Instructors on www.suwandaacademy.com (http://www.suwandaacademy.com). Rob Mckay is up that way or check out www.pecahan.com (http://www.pecahan.com)
I list some Texas folks on www.texassilat.org (http://www.texassilat.org)
The JKD schools are easier to find here in the USA and often offer some silat ( Maphilindo silat) . In many cases other forms of silat are still hard to find. Getting training might require relocation or be as simple as developing a "long distance training relationship" with a teacher .
With Respect,

Doc D.

[Glycerine0160]

You can find some Pencak Silat Mande Muda Instructors on www.suwandaacademy.com (http://www.suwandaacademy.com). Rob Mckay is up that way or check out www.pecahan.com (http://www.pecahan.com)
I list some Texas folks on www.texassilat.org (http://www.texassilat.org)
The JKD schools are easier to find here in the USA and often offer some silat ( Maphilindo silat) . In many cases other forms of silat are still hard to find. Getting training might require relocation or be as simple as developing a "long distance training relationship" with a teacher .
With Respect,

Doc D.

Thanks.

Rob Mckay seems like he knows his stuff while just looking at the website.

I also checked out this Minnesota Kali Group which teaches Maphilindo Silat like you said.

The thing I really like about the MKG is they teach throughout the day, and if I'm staying at a location to learn, that seems more ideal as opposed to Mckay who only teaches tues/thurs. for 90 minutes.

That's how I see it so far. Cause I really just want to spend my time training where ever I travel.

[infinite beginner]

It matter's not how many times you can hit ,only how many times you will not get hit.every deflection is a deception of perception.

[infinite beginner]

to grab with the wrist is a refined skill

[Jimi]

To type with the hand is a grand skill of the will. Never to be triffled with. :) Hi Infinite. Just wanted to keep in touch. A touch is a punch or a kick or even a shove to off balance is the key to the universe. Universal interception is the deception of the wise, or smart @$$.

Steve Braun in Maryland has quite a bit of experience with Mande Muda and I belive Bukti Negara as well. He should not be hard to find.

[infinite beginner]

I am glad some people don't understand what I write

[Jimi]

I understand, but I believe it is pretentious to behave so enlightened as if your opinion/words are Silat Gospel. You think I do not understand because I am not wrapped up or charmed in your musings. You would not believe I do not understand Silat if we simply crossed arms/shins. I just don't believe your writtings are specific to only Silat and it is just word play to sound insightful. That is unenlightened.

I simply believe you try to write over peoples heads in short vague segments to feel superior to those who do not get it from your word smithery (?is that a real word?) As I have said before Silat is engraved upon my heart until the end. Otherwise I will discuss Silat in a manner which most can try to understand rather than speak as though I were the high and mighty Silat Grand Inquistitor. LOL.

I trust your Jurus, Sambuts and words have brought you up to a plane of consiousness not unlike ascending to Silat Heaven and we down here can not understand the Divine Language of the Infinite Beginner. If you truely think I do not understand Silat or your expressions simply because I am not enthrawled by your choice of fancifull wordings of nuggets o' wisedom, then I am glad you think I do not understand.

Many have said before that your wording throws people off, not that what you write can not have deep meaning. I feel that your words can have much meaning just not specific to only Silat. Previously when you and I discussed this you threw an Authors name at me as if to insult my writting (Childrens book Author maybe) as if I were beneath you. LOL. I see that you may be an aspiring writter (just from that engagment and your posting) so is this true Silat insight or practice for your Novel or Obituary/Movie Critic columns? I jabbed that at you on purpose man.

I expect some sort of sharply worded retort belittling and degrading my understanding of Silat and the beauty of the written word or something of the like so you can stand as a superior word smith and keeper of Silats Sacred knowledge. LOL.

I wish I could BS as well as you, but my words are much more grounded than that of the Grammatical Weavings of the Infinite One.

BTW, the Indonesian, Malay and Filipino languages of differing Silat systems origins do not express the same as the well worded written english lanuage. Such charming musings would carry much more effect if drawn from the language of origin and then translated for us unenlightened. Otherwise many will choke on the Fortune Cookie Speak. LOL.

Yours truely, this lost soul of Silat, Jimi

[Glycerine0160]

hahaha.


You two should get married in Indonesia.
Although, I think the miscommunication will end it in divorce.

[infinite beginner]

As far as I can tell silat is above all our heads. I like to train I like to write tryin stop me.

[Jimi]

Not trying to stop you. I simply expressed my opinion of your postings and the relation between other peoples opinion of the way you post = sounding like your insights are inspired by the divine. LOL. It is clear you care for Silat, just think your writtings are not worded well for those who want to discuss Silat below the Philisophical spiritual ehterial aspects as insinuated in your postings.

My own belief is that Silat in many of its differing systems is DAMN combative. While training in a few systems myself as well as Shooto Shoot Wrestling i have seen that the weapons (stick, blade=barong karambit etc...) work aside Silat can tear a body asunder using many techniques that Shooto would find illegal in practice or competition. this i absolutely believe is quite a compliment to Silat. You can word you posts as you wish no doubt as can I, but neither of us can expect that no-one will have something critical to post in response. (We will never get married in Indonesia nor divorced, LOL)

I do believe you have some experience in Sliat, how much time in, what systems & under which Pendakar or Guro is undefined as far as i can tell, but that does not mean you can not have an opinion. i just find the way you write to sound like a high schooler trying to sound like they have a college philsophy professors insights. Grew up with calling professors of philosophy & public policy by their first names as I was a campus rat.

If I could interact here about Silat with you without it being a battle of wills as to who is the better (More spiritualy deep insightful poster) and discuss technique without it being about us, i would be quite pleased. It is not about pleasing me though, it is about why Silat?

Trying to discuss tech/priciple here. In Mande Muda, the typical stance is a forward leaning stance for balance and pressure. i was instructed that the founder of Mande Muda had a physical condition effecting one of his legs and maybe more and this stance was his adaptation to ensure his forward crying on the shoulder pressure.

For other practitioners of this system not affected by such a condition, and specific aspect to training the stance has been shared. it invovles a string, i worked this quite a bit more than a decade ago. i respect it for it helped.

Anyone else familiar with this? i would like to discuss.

i apologize for my long winded post, just want to clear the air between infinite and myself so maybe we all, including infinite can discuss this on a level the rest of us can be down with.

Infinite, you can respond as simply or as philisophical as you wish, just as before simply hoping for more discussion of Silat than hearing someones (In my opinion) high handed writtings.

[infinite beginner]

Our reasonings grasp at straws for premisis.painting speech that we by tracing magic lines are taught how to embody and to colour thought.All the worlds a sage.

[Jimi]

How beautiful. Do you or do you not know this use of string for drilling the stance infinite? This helped my Lankas, Jurus and Sambuts structure to become much more effective. Anyone else?

One and the same breeze blows thru the pines on the mountain and the oaks in the valley and yet they give different notes.

[infinite beginner]

"end ever end,and forever begin again" sounds like you need to join a school. like your seeking understanding that you lack.

[infinite beginner]

In silat everything is a weapon there is too much going on to categorically break down combative combinations. the knee shin and heel might being doing five things while the hands are striking

[Jimi]

so true, every word of it.

[doc D]

Hello Jimi. The founding instructor with the physical disability was that of the Serak system I believe. Pak Uyuh had no significant impairments that I am aware of aside from his knees did not like harimau work as much in his later years. You're right Steve Braun has back ground in Mande Muda. He would be a good source of training up that way.
Warm regards
Doc

[doc D]

Just as an observation from one who has been following this thread for a while and seen it drift off on tangents as opposed to its original intent. I think that what Infinite Beginner does not have a handle on is how , American martial artists percieve the "sing song ", vague , esoteric, indirect language used in his posts. ( I can't speak for other cultures).That is why he sometimes gets the reactions that he does. Here in the USA ,back in the 70s when the TV show "Kung Fu" was popular, the star portrayed by David Carradine spoke in vague, esoteric mystical language seasoned with broken /pidgeon English. Before you knew it,you had martial arts instructors who seemed to adopt that style of speech when talking to students and others about their art....talking in Zen Koans, Asian parables,pidgeon English ,etc, ....often mediocre teachers trying to come off as having some sort of deep, far reaching ,mystic insight to these "exotic" fighting arts , that ,at that time, were fairly unfamiliar to the American public. It has become more of a joke....something that is repeatedly PARODIED in comedy routines and even members of our more wise-cracking martial artists. So here in the USA , serious martial artists who have "been around the block " tend to find such language corny , unnecessary or tedious if used ad. nauseum..."constantly and to the extreme". Certainly the points made can still be insightful and valid , but often time direct ,concrete statements are more respected and appreciated. One who talks like this in America is often suspected of trying to "put on over on others" by trying to sounds as if they have secret , deep, superior insights into an art. The novice may hang on every syllable of the sing song poetry but if used too much , many other folks will just think "Give it a rest, get to the point and stop beating around the bush " and quickly tire of what that person has to say. This is just my assessment of why people react to Infinite Beginner as they do. I've seen a mixed response ,but those who have a lot of training years under their belts are the ones who seem to react the most negatively. Subjects touched on are quite nice as ,myself being a pesilat, I know what he refers to. However, the "language" the subjects are wrapped in often caused the point to be lost because this method of communication is being overused as it was overused by the old "Kung Fu" fan/ martial arts instructor of the 1970s. We all can get a bit philosophic on our arts but we try not to "over do it". Again as this thread started out as "Why did you choose silat?" , people are interested in specifics relative to that. Those people are also wanting to know what is studied, with whom , where , how long ,etc. and what attracted you to the art as opposed to philosophic musings on ever minute detail of the art.
Just my observations on the direction and flavor the thread has had at times . Since so many react to Infinite Beginner as they do I thought I'd explain why I percieve that to be happening. I still think interactions would be less inflammatory at times if Infinite Beginner really introduced himself by way of style, back ground , location, and some specifics rather than only throwing out esoteric, philosophical statements continuously. It would help to have folks understand and connect with you more as a fellow martial artist and silat enthusiast.

With Respect,
Doc

[doc D]

Infinite Beginner, I myself am quite curious as to your background since you have, indeed, been a source of numerous posts here. I was curious what style or styles you may have studied ....although I maintain all good silat styles share the same basic , sound principles and tactics that make silat what it is. How many years have you put into the pursuit of silat? Where did you train ( in what culture or country) ? I assume where you studied , there were also other styles of martial arts that you might have chosen to study. Why did you choose silat over them? Was there a particular teacher or practitioner that impressed you so as to entice you to study silat versus the other arts?

With Respect,

Doc D

[infinite beginner]

silat is aero-yogic kickboxing performed by magicians.any is as good as any other if you look deep enough.an art of few motions that re train and refine tune reflexes until silat practices itself thru you all the time.why it makes you nearly impervious to slips trips and spills that take out ordinary folk on a regular basis.when was the last time you heard of a silat guy slipping in the bath tub wont happen if they are practicing their structure
or better yet the structure is practicing it self.its like the structure is wet cement when you start and after ten or so years it is concrete.

[Glycerine0160]

This is overly amusing.

We will never find out his true identity.


Personally, I rather enjoy it. I feel these proverbs bring about things to always keep fresh in the mind. I actually wish I had or eventually have an instructor who embraces that more naturalistic way of the art. One who focuses on the structure of your opponent and yourself rather than this is how you perform this task. I think it makes it all flow easier and will ultimately make you a more efficient martial artist/self defense practitioner. Otherwise, you have cut and dry moves acting like a machine, acting on a mechanical function. The better the understanding, the better execution of the move, even under a indeterminable environment.

[infinite beginner]

I thought they meant, why is there silat? if some one you know walks up to you and says why do you do silat ?you say, I can show you,just throw a punch. that would better resolve their question than miles of cyber type
ever could.perhaps a post could possibly be created that was more specific.why I wasted half my life doing all those other crappy martial arts.

[infinite beginner]

Why do people go or turn to martial arts to begin with.what most psychologically motivates people to do martial arts??self defense
seems to be a popular response.defense against what a fear of being jabbed ,grabbed or accosted in a particular way so you can produce some practiced heroic counter.thats what draws alot in but why they stay seems more complicated.maybe for the challenge and thrill of fighting with out the streets ambush and random fatality. street fighting filtered into a controlled environment of learning.laughing thru bloody noses twisted ligiments.two things people tend to approach seriously religion and fighting.martial arts is not quite either

[Jimi]

Thank you infinite beginner, I feel I can obsorb this much easier. I absolutely agree. Growing up near DC, I got into martial arts more out of neccessity than trying to be heroic. lol. but out of many arts i have trained in SILAT is quite powerfull. The finishes in Silat are very brutal and effective making it very very compitent for street self defense. Regardless of how we post, I believe we both admire Silat for some of the same reasons. Infinite, Peace man.

[infinite beginner]

in silat we attack the motion around the structure not the muscle with in the structure.

[infinite beginner]

angle is to force what water is to fire

[infinite beginner]

as in rock and jazz comes from and goes back to the blues silat comes from and goes back to the street.that could sum up my perspective.

[Jimi]

Infinite Beginner, Your comment about angle is to force what water is to fire is right on. I can dig that. I am an Architectural & Mechanical Engineering Draftsman (AutoCad Monkey), LOL, so that is very deep to me. I like that. I hope we can better get along. I must learn to look beyond the way someone posts. LOL.

Silat can crash as well as give way. It can be hard and soft. Many things about Silat impress me. I was not just trying to be contrary to your post Infinite, I just think I may be coming around (LOL) as long as we respect Silat how we post is insignificant. PEACE

[infinite beginner]

here's more droning droll monologue going on and on and on and on and on and on more barrages of ambiguous assertions .more detatched references unhindered by definition.in silat the word is when.

[Jimi]

The mere posting of anything I submit seems to pain you man. Or am I reading you wrong? Silat rules, oh wait, Silat is a street art, there are no rules. lol. peace

[infinite beginner]

Its 99 percent set up ,one percent knock out

[infinite beginner]

uh,nothing personal meant to anyone ever,this aint about issue's unless you wanna make it about issues.lets see how tough you can write, who can knuckle out that knock out - paragraph? on your blood stained key board

[infinite beginner]

its good to always practice basics that way the basics are allways in a state of improvement.the basics grow with your skill and understanding. the basics of now is what puzzles you at the moment
if nothing's puzzlling you Get out! run ! dont look back, its not silat

[infinite beginner]

skill is technique plus confidence, abillity, attitude and understanding.

[infinite beginner]

you dont rehearse a fire drill to practice panicking which is why in silat we practice slow.

[infinite beginner]

Think smaller by going slower. "its the little things that kill".

[infinite beginner]

anyone knows everything revolves around the point of contact and no two points of contact are ever exactly the same.unless your fighting a robot but
not a very sophisticated one.

[infinite beginner]

also silat makes you feel good physically.how can it not.the freedom of motion opens circullation and energy channels.for me at times, very hard to start training, but almost always I dont want to stop , I have to tear myself away from it ,with twice the resistance it took to over come to begin in the first place.some thing about being in continuous motion, very energizing and habit forming.the value of a school is the incentive to keep up with at worst, conquer at best, all the other students. self defense as the only motivation isnt enough incentive to replace the sporting mock animosity a school can provide.

[infinite beginner]

In the first motion of the first juru is the key to the entire system.. also , never honk at anyone on the street unless your ready to fight! especialy if just your luck they happen to be going to the same parking lot you are.if as soon as they spot you they start swearing,at this point do not stop and attempt to humer them! any rational only fuels their rage!next time just smile , ignore them go in the store.

[infinite beginner]

point being, if someone does something stupid and dangerous on the road
they are very likely very stupid and dangerous in other environments as well.I dont know what happened, he got out of his car walked toward me
maybe five feet away put his hands up like he was going walk in and shove me I just stood there then he just stopped All I know is I was far more relaxed then Ive ever been in these kinds of situations I was so calm it scares me to think about it It must have scared him to.he never came any closer and it dissolved into a minor argument.But thats just another way of using silat.all I know I couldnt have felt so relaxed if I didnt know how much the art's motions demand it.just an oddity for the silat twilight zone.

[infinite beginner]

Our tension and fear must be among our most powerful tools how else can it be that they so often control and over rule us.