now i am pissed off

[thekuntawman]

i posted this on bladeforums, and i am posting it everywhere else.

www.huntedmovie.com

look for "train for combat" and then find "kali"

after all of the talking we do about what are the true philippine martial arts, authtentic martial arts of the philippines TODAY....(kali vs. arnis and eskrima) now we have the non-martial arts public is told from this website, and the movie, that the ancient art of kali is pass down for hundreds of years in secret. this is so much ******** the people who gave this information KNOWS they art is arnis-eskrima with a new "revived" name of KALI. so now, every authentic philippine martial arts instructor who might benefit from the popularity from this movie, is going to be passed over, so that the movie goer can find this "ancient secret art" of KALI.

this is my problem with you guys who use the words and throw them out to all the non-FMA who dont know the truth. pananantukan, kinomutai, blind princesses, muslim kali, and everybody wears a machete....these informations are being given over and over by men who might been told the myth a long time ago, then they found out the truth, now they are continuing to tell the garbage they know is not true to people who dont know better.

so where does this leave the FILIPINO philippine martial artists and his students? we are over looked, so that the ignorant can chase fancy stories about stuff they read in the magazine and computer, and now, the movies.

YOU GUYS KNOW NOW, WHAT IS KALI AND WHAT IS THE TRUTH ABOUT PHILIPPINE MARTIAL ARTS, AND YOU STILL WANT TO TELL YOUR OWN VERSION OF OUR HISTORY. why not? you do it with every body else history, the filipino might as well be next.

[arnisador]

At the JKD class I take, a potential new student came in last week. She brought her high-school age cousin who was visiting from the Philippines. After the class, the instructor asked the cousin if she knew about Kali. She said no. Arnis? No. How about Eskrima? Yes, she said--that's stick fighting! Had she studied it? No, just karate. (She had earlier done some idle techniques on a heavy bag--reverse punch, a few kicks--and I think it may actually have been Tae Kwon Do.) Her English was pretty good, though not perfect, and I do think she understood the questions.

[KenpoDragon]

Kuntawman, you REALLY need to lay off with the HOLIER THAN THOU stuff. Just because "you think" your art is the one and only true art does not mean it is. What does Kali mean??? Mother Art right??? Man you need to realize that there are different forms of FMA's, it's just like Japanese Karate, how many forms of Karate are there??? I know of at least a dozen. Just because "some" people choose to call FMA's Kali, doesn't mean that you and you alone must take it upon yourself to straighten the world out. Kali is a general term, much like Karate, with many different styles. What do you care if this instructor or that instructor calls their art Kali? It's their choice right? I could call my art THE SUPREME SUPER DUPER EXTRAORDINARY FIGHTING ART if I felt like it, but I don't. My old instructor told me that the style he was teaching me was called Kali, and the specific name of our style of Kali was called Kalis-Kalis. If he would have called it Super Weapons Combat, then that's what I would call it. It's all about respect for ones art, I understand that you believe that you are trying to save your heritage or whatever it is you are fighting for, but come on give it a rest already. Every one of your posts that I have ever read is about the same subject. Who cares what a movie says, movies have been manipulating the martial arts world for decades, with there versions of what they think martial arts is. Just look at movies like Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon. I don't know any martial artist that can fly, do you? Oh by the way Arnisador, ask some Filipinos about how many different forms of dialects there are in the Phillipines. There are thousands, so what if one girl didn't know what Kali meant, that doesn't proove anything.

:deadhorse get it???


:asian: KenpoDragon

[moromoro]

KenpoDragon you NEED TO START LOOKING AT FACTS>>>>>>

THE WORD KALI DOES NOT EXIST IN ANY OF OUR LANGUAGES OR DIALECTS.........................................

please start respecting this, you can call your art kali or whatever but just dont say that it is an ANCIENT PILIPINO MARTIAL ART because this is complete false and if you BELIEVE THIS than i feel sorry for you.........

like i said i dont care if you call your KALI or MULE style ESKRIMA as long as you dont say that KALi is an ancient PILIPINO MARTIAL ART this is FALSE............

Master Diego has said that the first time the word was used was in YAmbao's book then it was popularised by DAN INOSANTO from VILABRILE...................

RESPECT OUR LANGUAGES AND DIALECTS THE WORD KALI DOES NOT EXIST......................


THANK YOU

TERRY

[Wingman]

...ask some Filipinos about how many different forms of dialects there are in the Phillipines. There are thousands, so what if one girl didn't know what Kali meant, that doesn't proove anything.

There are about 80 Filipino languages & dialects, not thousands! The 2 most widely spoken Filipino languages are Tagalog & Bisaya (Cebuano). I speak both languages. The word "Kali" is not found in either language. However, I don't know about the other 80 or so languages if the word "kali" is included in their vocabulary. But if Kali is the "mother art of FMA", isn't it logical that it would be widely used in the Philippines?

[Cebu West]

YOU GUYS KNOW NOW, WHAT IS KALI AND WHAT IS THE TRUTH ABOUT PHILIPPINE MARTIAL ARTS, AND YOU STILL WANT TO TELL YOUR OWN VERSION OF OUR HISTORY.

Nothing you say will be taken with respect as long as you keep using terms like "YOU GUYS." You don't want us to generalize but you continue to do so. We are not all the same and do not all think alike, however we my all think alike when it comes to you if you continue these attacks.

SAL

[KenpoDragon]

Originally posted by moromoro
[B]KenpoDragon you NEED TO START LOOKING AT FACTS>>>>>>

THE WORD KALI DOES NOT EXIST IN ANY OF OUR LANGUAGES OR DIALECTS......................................... I NEVER SAID IT DID.


please start respecting this, you can call your art kali or whatever but just dont say that it is an ANCIENT PILIPINO MARTIAL ART because this is complete false and if you BELIEVE THIS than i feel sorry for you......... Don't put words in my mouth, I never stated anything about Kali being an ANCIENT FILIPINO MARTIAL ART,did I??? Nope. By the way Terry/Moromoro, do you actually speak all 80 languages???? I DOUBT IT! By the way please don't "feel" anything for me.


like i said i dont care if you call your KALI or MULE style ESKRIMA as long as you dont say that KALi is an ancient PILIPINO MARTIAL ART this is FALSE............ Once again, I never said that!!! read my post before you start swinging. And if you actually don't care what I call "my" art, then why are all of your posts about the exact same thing???


Master Diego has said that the first time the word was used was in YAmbao's book then it was popularised by DAN INOSANTO from VILABRILE...................

RESPECT OUR LANGUAGES AND DIALECTS THE WORD KALI DOES NOT EXIST...................... I do respect "your" languages and dialects do you??? All "YOU GUYS" show people on this forum is disrespect!!! What does that say for your culture? Your always trying to defend your "culture" but if you really thought about it you would see that you are causing people in general to have a very bad opinion of your "culture". You and the Kuntawman always shoot first!!! You guys think that you are the champions of the Phillipines or something??? Like I said in my original post, what do you care what other people think, if you "supposedly" know the truth?

[KenpoDragon]

Originally posted by Wingman
There are about 80 Filipino languages & dialects, not thousands! Well excuse me!!! Big deal, there are a lot of different dialects, that's what I meant, stop being so technical.
The 2 most widely spoken Filipino languages are Tagalog & Bisaya (Cebuano). I speak both languages. The word "Kali" is not found in either language. However, I don't know about the other 80 or so languages if the word "kali" is included in their vocabulary. Just like you said, you DON'T speak the other 80 or so dialects.
But if Kali is the "mother art of FMA", isn't it logical that it would be widely used in the Philippines? I never said it was THE MOTHER ART OF THE FMA, did I, I said Kali meant mother art. Are you telling me that you have personally studied ALL the Filipino martial arts styles??? Yeah OK, sure.......I believe you, really I do!


:shrug:

[Kirk]

Kung Fu was the mother art of China ... nowadays, and for the past what? 50 years or so, it's been outlawed in China. Now they do Wushu .. even in the Shaolin temples. It's practiced more in the U.S. than it is in China. How long before Chinese could come on here, claiming that Kung Fu, regardless of style is NOT a Chinese MA? Another 50 years or so? That's long enough for 3 generations to go by without ever seeing Kung Fu in China. At that time, someone could potentially come on here and say "YOU ARE DISRESPECTING OUR CULTURE, KUNG FU IS NOT AN ANCIENT ART OF CHINA!"

Given the numerous regime changes of the Phillipines, how could one factually say that Kali never existed there?

[dearnis.com]

Master Diego has said that the first time the word was used was in YAmbao's book then it was popularised by DAN INOSANTO from VILABRILE...................

Is this Master Tony Diego of Kali Illustrisimo?

[Dave Fulton]

Originally posted by Kirk
Kung Fu was the mother art of China ... nowadays, and for the past what? 50 years or so, it's been outlawed in China. Now they do Wushu .. even in the Shaolin temples.

With all due respect Kirk, you should check your facts.

1.) "Kung-fu" refers to a skill (any skill) acquired through hard work. A musician, painter, carpenter, cook, etc. can have "kung-fu" in their field. You can look at a master of any craft and say that they have "kung-fu".

2.) Wu translates roughly as "martial" or "military" and Shu translates as "art". Therefore, "wushu" = "martial art"

3.) Today we have "traditional" or "classical" wushu and Modern Wushu. Modern Wushu was designed by the State so that a standard could be established for judging in competition. The "traditional" wushu sytles are still practiced, but they do not receive State support.

Respectfully,

David Fulton

[Cruentus]

Originally posted by Dave Fulton
With all due respect Kirk, you should check your facts.

1.) "Kung-fu" refers to a skill (any skill) acquired through hard work. A musician, painter, carpenter, cook, etc. can have "kung-fu" in their field. You can look at a master of any craft and say that they have "kung-fu".

2.) Wu translates roughly as "martial" or "military" and Shu translates as "art". Therefore, "wushu" = "martial art"

Respectfully,

David Fulton

I wasn't going to say it, because I got Kirks point. This is true, however. Kung-fu is actually pronounced "Gung-Fu," as well. Although it often refers to any skill, it most commonly refered to as generic martial arts, in the same way "Karate" or more recently "kickboxing" is a generic term for martial arts here in the states.

I had a friend who spent 4 years in China, and studied "Gung-Fu" when he was there. I remember when a female friend from china was over, and she mentioned his style. I then mentioned I study arnis. She gave me a confused look, then my friend reinerated with "Pilipino Gung Fu," and she then understood.

A discussion on proper Chinese terminology probably belongs on a different thread, so I'll shut up now. :cool:

[Kirk]

Originally posted by Dave Fulton
With all due respect Kirk, you should check your facts.

1.) "Kung-fu" refers to a skill (any skill) acquired through hard work. A musician, painter, carpenter, cook, etc. can have "kung-fu" in their field. You can look at a master of any craft and say that they have "kung-fu".

2.) Wu translates roughly as "martial" or "military" and Shu translates as "art". Therefore, "wushu" = "martial art"

Respectfully,

David Fulton

Okay, my bad ... I was recently educated on the translations, so
excuse my choice of the words. What I meant though, was the
true combart martial arts of old China are practiced more in the U.S. than in China. Styles like Hung Gar, Tai Chi, Wing Chun, etc
are forbidden to be practiced in China (or so sayeth the
documentary I saw on the Discovery Channel). Since the traditional styles of combat martial arts were outlawed, WuShu
was developed. And then ... the rest of my previous post is still
a possibility.

[moromoro]

Given the numerous regime changes of the Phillipines, how could one factually say that Kali never existed there?

i think we should understand that the word KALI is obviously a new term (WORD) regarding the pilipino martial arts and it was popularised by dan inosanto.......


terry

[Kirk]

Originally posted by moromoro
i think we should understand that the word KALI is obviously a new term (WORD) regarding the pilipino martial arts and it was popularised by dan inosanto.......


terry

You didn't really answer the question .. so in regards to THIS post
over 80 dialects ... numerous regime changes .. how do you
know? Vietnam had a french rule for how long? like 50 years?
The entire Vietnamese language has LOADS of words that are
now based on the french language. If in 50 years, and only ONE
regime change ... that's a grand impact. How can you so
emphatically say that the word Kali is "new" ???

[grimfang]

There are different versions of the origin of the use of the word Kali as a martial arts term. Some claim it comes from the two word syllables Kamut which means "Hand" and Lihok which means "Movement". In short this translates to Hand Movement, with or with out weaponry. Some believe it comes from India's art called Velakali or "Sword play". A third version simply claims that Moro's warriors of the southern Philippine resembled the Hindu Goddess of death called Kali when they engaged in battle.

[Cruentus]

Originally posted by moromoro
i think we should understand that the word KALI is obviously a new term (WORD) regarding the pilipino martial arts and it was popularised by dan inosanto.......


terry

As a Filipino martial artist, I can say that this is what is excepted to be true.

Does this mean that we should get our panties in a bunch because someone decides to use the word "Kali" for their system? I don't think so.

What probably happend with that movie trail? Who knows? The system that was used for the movie was Sayoc "Kali." Some writer probably just used the name, did minimal research, and wrote in inaccurate information.

I don't think this movie trailer was an attempt to rewrite history, and thwart Filipino culture. This assumption is not logical. It is more likely to assume that when writing the trailer, the writers were more concentrated on marketing then accuracy, and out of sheer lazyness they printed what they did. No consperecy here.

I can agree with Kuntawman that it can be fustrating that people outside of the arts don't take the time to get their facts straight w/ FMA, or with ANY martial art for that manner. But face it, martialtalkers, The general public, American and otherwise, don't care about martial arts, period, let alone accuracy regarding martial arts.

I can't agree with Kuntawman's elequent way of stating his fustrations, however. When it is posted in an accusing manner and tone, people don't understand what the "real" problem is. Some people here think that kuntawman is mad at the use of the "name" Kali, which I don't think is true. Some think that your using this as a way to get on your soapbox(again) and slam on "American ignorance" of FMA, which could be true.

Kuntawman, when you post with emotion instead of logic (added with an accusatory tone and generalizing words) people are going to have a difficult time taking you without the grain of salt.

I think that the real problem is that people outside of the martial arts community just don't give a damn about getting their facts straight. The way this was originally posted, who'd of known this? :shrug:

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Kirk
Kung Fu was the mother art of China ... nowadays, and for the past what? 50 years or so, it's been outlawed in China.

I don't believe that this is correct.

I do believe that the term 'kali' was not widely used for the FMA until recently. Just my take on the evidence I've seen. My first post in this thread was meant just to be a single data point.

[kkbb]

Do you tink dis guy and .....


Originally posted by moromoro
i think we should understand that the word KALI is obviously a new term (WORD) regarding the pilipino martial arts and it was popularised by dan inosanto.......


terry

...dis guy,



Originally posted by thekuntawman
i posted this on bladeforums, and i am posting it everywhere else.

www.huntedmovie.com

look for "train for combat" and then find "kali"

after all of the talking we do about what are the true philippine martial arts, authtentic martial arts of the philippines TODAY....(kali vs. arnis and eskrima) now we have the non-martial arts public is told from this website, and the movie, that the ancient art of kali is pass down for hundreds of years in secret. this is so much ******** the people who gave this information KNOWS they art is arnis-eskrima with a new "revived" name of KALI. so now, every authentic philippine martial arts instructor who might benefit from the popularity from this movie, is going to be passed over, so that the movie goer can find this "ancient secret art" of KALI.

this is my problem with you guys who use the words and throw them out to all the non-FMA who dont know the truth. pananantukan, kinomutai, blind princesses, muslim kali, and everybody wears a machete....these informations are being given over and over by men who might been told the myth a long time ago, then they found out the truth, now they are continuing to tell the garbage they know is not true to people who dont know better.



....might be the same guy?

hmmmm...... a certain lack of capitalization.... similar grammar probs.....

Just an observation....:confused:

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Originally posted by kkbb
....might be the same guy?

I hope not. I like the Kuntao man.

[thekuntawman]

Originally posted by kkbb
Do you tink dis guy and .....



...dis guy,




....might be the same guy?

hmmmm...... a certain lack of capitalization.... similar grammar probs.....

Just an observation....:confused:

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

now DATS funny!

no i am not. but i did wonder how come nobody thought that already. we do have a lot in common. :D

[kkbb]

Thought you would get a laugh out of that one...:rofl:

[Wingman]

Originally posted by KenpoDragon
Well excuse me!!! Big deal, there are a lot of different dialects, that's what I meant, stop being so technical. Just like you said, you DON'T speak the other 80 or so dialects.I never said it was THE MOTHER ART OF THE FMA, did I, I said Kali meant mother art. Are you telling me that you have personally studied ALL the Filipino martial arts styles??? Yeah OK, sure.......I believe you, really I do!


:shrug:

KenpoDragon,

I have no problem if you call your art Kali.

What's in a name? That which we call a rose by any other name would smell as sweet. "Romeo and Juliet", Act II, Scene 2, by William Shakespeare.

What I wrote about Filipino languages & Kali is for general information for everybody. I don't mean to discredit Kali. Sorry if you took it that wrong way.

[Veynn]

Originally posted by grimfang
There are different versions of the origin of the use of the word Kali as a martial arts term. Some claim it comes from the two word syllables Kamut which means "Hand" and Lihok which means "Movement". In short this translates to Hand Movement, with or with out weaponry. Some believe it comes from India's art called Velakali or "Sword play". A third version simply claims that Moro's warriors of the southern Philippine resembled the Hindu Goddess of death called Kali when they engaged in battle.


All I know is Kali came from the word Kalis, which means Blade.

[moromoro]

You didn't really answer the question .. so in regards to THIS post
numerous regime changes ..
How can you emphatically say that the word Kali is "new" ???

well it is because of the information we have, EVERYONE IN THE PHILIPPINES PRIOR TO YAMBAO"S BOOK HAVE NEVER HERD OF THE WORD KALI used in regards to the martial arts, INOSANTO popularised the term because of Vilabrile. now thats a grand total of 3 people and of course the people that where somewhat influenced by them would begin to use the word.

now should we take these peoples word that KALI is an ancient martial art of all philippines????? I THINK not.

many of the grandmasters of cebu, think of kali as an american version of eskrima/arnis.......................


the same guy

no, we only share the same love for our country's native arts.


thanks

terry

[Federico]

One thing on the kalis and kali linkage. Kalis is pronounced in such a way that it sounds like kris. Its one anglecised way to write the word. So, dropping the s, when pronounced would leave you with a word that sounded like kree, and not ka-li. I know its been a way to justify the kali, but again I do not believe one can take arbitrarily anglecised words, and draw condlusions. Especially with dialects that werent writtne in Roman letters till recent times. If one notices, the varied spellings of Filipino (philipino, and pilipino), the correct spelling of many Philippine dialects is still up in the air. Kinda like the tribal name Iranun, depending on what book, the author, time period, it can also be found spelt Illanun, Lanun, Lanaon, Iranaon, etc... All foreign attempts to write phonetically that which had not been written before in Roman Text. What is more key is the phonetic rather than the literary.

[Cruentus]

If the name of your art is "Kali," then this is fine.

But, understand that there is a ton of evidence out there supporting the notion that "Kali" was not the name of ancient FMA. This was a modern/western innovation.

There is nothing wrong with this; where the problem occurs is when you defend the "Kali" name with information that is untrue. Another problem occurs is when people fabricate fantasy stories based on the word "Kali," (or something like it). It just makes "westerners" look ignorant, and worse it is screwing with an entire history/culture of people.

Just don't do it. Don't fall into the "defensive" trap, where you find yourself defending things that aren't true because your ego refuses to believe something different. If you have an instructor who might not teach or even know adequete history of your art, then it would do you well to keep an open mind and learn about the culture, as opposed to getting defensive over what you don't know. Hell, I have a Filipino instructor for a traditional Filipino art, yet because I am not Filipino I learn new things about the culture all the time.

We are martial artists, not historians. We are not expected to know every detail of the culture from where our arts come from. We should, however, be expected to have an open mind to learning about a culture that is not our own, rather then egotistically defending what we were taught for fear of being "wrong."

:asian:
PAUL

P.S. I actually might agree with moromoro on something here. That makes me want to kick my own @$$!:hammer:
:p

[Black Grass]

Originally posted by Federico
One thing on the kalis and kali linkage. Kalis is pronounced in such a way that it sounds like kris. Its one anglecised way to write the word. So, dropping the s, when pronounced would leave you with a word that sounded like kree, and not ka-li. I know its been a way to justify the kali, but again I do not believe one can take arbitrarily anglecised words, and draw condlusions. Especially with dialects that werent writtne in Roman letters till recent times. If one notices, the varied spellings of Filipino (philipino, and pilipino), the correct spelling of many Philippine dialects is still up in the air. Kinda like the tribal name Iranun, depending on what book, the author, time period, it can also be found spelt Illanun, Lanun, Lanaon, Iranaon, etc... All foreign attempts to write phonetically that which had not been written before in Roman Text. What is more key is the phonetic rather than the literary.

Federico,

good point. r and l have a similar pronunciation in the old visayan languages this is how balangay became barangay.

Another explaination put forth by Guro Ormikl D of Kalis-Kalis is how kali is written in baybayin script. in baybayin script when written seperately there are no consonants prononced at the end so we get Ba, Ka, Li, La..... . so when written characters seperately it would be be KA and LI. However, if we put the characters together to form a word it COULD be read as KALIS depending on the context of the sentence. This is how the 's' might have been dropped to get kali.

again speculation.

Vince
aka Black Grass

[Federico]

Originally posted by Black Grass
Federico,

good point. r and l have a similar pronunciation in the old visayan languages this is how balangay became barangay.

Another explaination put forth by Guro Ormikl D of Kalis-Kalis is how kali is written in baybayin script. in baybayin script when written seperately there are no consonants prononced at the end so we get Ba, Ka, Li, La..... . so when written characters seperately it would be be KA and LI. However, if we put the characters together to form a word it COULD be read as KALIS depending on the context of the sentence. This is how the 's' might have been dropped to get kali.

again speculation.

Vince
aka Black Grass
It could read Kalis, but how would it sound? The word game, using spelling, is very tenuous especially if improper pronunciation is used. Like barong tagalog, versus barong sword. In real life they are pronounced differently, but when spealt out using these spellings, they look the same. Which is of course why many prefer the sword to be spealt barung, which is more phonetically correct, but then there are farts like me who are too used to the other spelling barong, to change. Anyways, I cant delve to far into the language game, Im not a linguist, and only speak choppy Tagalog (cant write it out though).

[KenpoDragon]

Originally posted by Wingman
KenpoDragon,

I have no problem if you call your art Kali.

What's in a name? That which we call a rose by any other name would smell as sweet. "Romeo and Juliet", Act II, Scene 2, by William Shakespeare.

What I wrote about Filipino languages & Kali is for general information for everybody. I don't mean to discredit Kali. Sorry if you took it that wrong way. Look bro, I apologize if I came off a little harsh, but you have to understand that this is a HEATED discussion for many practitioners of any FMA. I agree with you that the name is not the main factor of an art, if you look back at my earlier posts you will see that this was the point that I was trying to make. Unfortunately Moromoro and The Kuntawman don't seem to understand this. They are to hung up on what they believe is a total lack of respect for "their" culture. They are not seeing the fact that when people of any race or religion practice a FMA that they are indeed paying the utmost respect to the Filipino culture. There are of course a few exceptions to this, and I do understand the argument, just not the way that "they" go about getting their point across. As the old saying goes you catch more flies with honey, then you do with vinegar.

:asian: KenpoDragon

[moromoro]

.S. I actually might agree with moromoro on something here. That makes me want to kick my own @$$!


start kicking


thanks

terry

[Cruentus]

Originally posted by moromoro
start kicking


thanks

terry

:kiss: :moon:

Or Kissin'!

[moromoro]

funny stuff where do you guys get those icons???

[Cruentus]

When you hit "reply" go to "smiles" on the left hand side of the screen. At the bottom, click on [get more], and you'll find 118 icons to choose from!

:D

[Dave Fulton]

Originally posted by Kirk
Okay, my bad ... I was recently educated on the translations, so
excuse my choice of the words. What I meant though, was the
true combart martial arts of old China are practiced more in the U.S. than in China. Styles like Hung Gar, Tai Chi, Wing Chun, etc
are forbidden to be practiced in China (or so sayeth the
documentary I saw on the Discovery Channel). Since the traditional styles of combat martial arts were outlawed, WuShu
was developed. And then ... the rest of my previous post is still
a possibility.

Understood. However, I do not think that the traditional styles were made illegal by the State. If that were true then how does one explain the fact that families like the Chen family (Chen style Taijiquan) openly practice and teach? What the State did do, however, was to "re-educate", imprison or kill anyone who openly opposed the State and didn't leave the country. Martial artists tend to be strong willed, so a lot of them were pursecuted. Modern Wushu was developed for several reasons including, but not limited to, creating a national sport and developing strong, healthy and disciplined citizens, as well as aiding the State in undermining the influence of Traditional Wushu.

Just so that you know, I am basing the above on what I was told (as a youth) by my maternal grandfather, as well as his brother and sister, all of whom left the PRC. Add to that recollections of studies in Political Science from college.

Why am I being a pain in the butt here? Because the point being debated here is the origin of the word "kali" and the validity of it's current use in relation to FMA, as well as the propogation of FMA myths. Therefore, in my opinion, bringing to light the incorrect usage of "kung-fu" and correcting myths about CMA is appropriate.

It's interesting how, just with FMA and the term "kali", many Chinese Shifu use the term "kung-fu" simply because it has become the term, albeit an incorrect one, by which the public recognizes CMA.

Respectfully,

Dave Fulton

[moromoro]

It's interesting how, just with FMA and the term "kali", many Chinese Shifu use the term "kung-fu" simply because it has become the term, albeit an incorrect one, by which the public recognizes CMA.

well in the USA it is used a lot........ but in the philippines in cebu mindanao, zamboanga basilan and jolo where the word supposedly comes from no one knows what the hell it means......

KALI is not used much in the philippines arnis and eskrima are the terms used........

[moromoro]

for all those folk in this forum who like to use KALI and train KALI why dont you ask danny inosanto where he got the name from.... and the sopposed history behind it......

thanks

terry

[Dave Fulton]

Originally posted by moromoro
well in the USA it is used a lot........ but in the philippines in cebu mindanao, zamboanga basilan and jolo where the word supposedly comes from no one knows what the hell it means......

KALI is not used much in the philippines arnis and eskrima are the terms used........

Yes, I was refering to it's use in the USA. Sorry for not making that clear.

Dave Fulton.

[Airyu@hotmail.com]

Hello Everyone,

This thread has popped up all over the net and is now the soapbox issue!! So much conflict over the term "Kali", but does it really matter?

Clearly it is not a term frequently used in the Philippines. (in the context currently popular in the US and elsewhere) But, didn't Tatang Ilustrisimo, start to call his system Kali, after recognizing the marketing aspect of the term?(now the Bakbakan calls it Kalis Ilustrisimo) I do believe GT Gaje also changed his art from Pekiti Tirsia Arnis, to Pekiti Tirsia Kali as well, so the term is being used in the Philippines as well.

As for where it started: Guro Dan's book had a story in it about Floro Villabrille, and I believe many people started using the term from this source, as well as from Grand Master Floro himself, prior to the release of this book. I have also heard other stories from GT Gaje that is was a bastardization of various events in the hinterlands of the Philippines(Not a quote but fairly close)

Gumagalang

Guro Steve L.
www.Sayoc.com
www.Bujinkandojo.net

[moromoro]

after recognizing the marketing aspect of the term

yes yes yes its all about the marketing to american consumers...

but there is notthing wrong with the name its just the false history that comes with it....

[Veynn]

Honestly, I don't give a rats as** about the subject matter.

I just want to train and be a better fighter. If this issue will only affect my training, then for me its not worth talking about.

I leave this history talk with the keyboard warriors.

[moromoro]

I just want to train and be a better fighter. If this issue will only affect my training then its not worth it.

I leave this history talk with the keyboard warriors.

yeah thats right....

SHUT UP AND TRAIN!!!!!!!!!:soapbox: :cool:

[Airyu@hotmail.com]

I love that Soapbox icon!!

Steve L.

[haumana2000]

From an old mamgazine article by burton Richardson:

:D
Stop Complaining, and Start Training!

Dude, the whole point is moot. I run a large Pacific Island and Filipino cultural organization. If you look at the Malayo Polynesian languages, there are many variations of what is in essence one root language. In Mark Wileys work the Filipino Martial arts, he does a cool classification method. He doesnt way that ancient arts were called Kali, he simply groups the arts by the staple techniques of each art i.e

Ancient, (Kali oriented methods)
Classical (Spanish inffluenced)
Modern (Karate, Kung Fu, or judo influenced with belts and such)

Most people what do "Kali" are those that are influenced by the Philippines next door neighbors, and the sotuerhn area, that has that "Majapahit" recipie so to speak. The Sri Vishaya was hindu. and the word exists there. Therm Kalis for the blade exists, so it could be taken from there. I think the Kali practitioner identifies that fact that he practices silat type techniques with his hands, and has a strong influence on the blade rather that force to force stick blocks. Is this wrong? no, I dont think so. Unfortunately you'll find that most filipinos (especially young ones) could really care less about their martial arts. Even in the PI, juijitsu is the big rage now. so why stand on the "soapbox" and try to reeducate the world, when most dont care? Beleive me, Ive had hundreds of young kids come through my program, who are more interested in buyin new kicks, trickin out the g-ride, and hookin up witha little bilat action, than learnining their heritage. Sad but true. Thats why, those few dedicated ones I get. I let them know the different philosophies, on the history, and I let them draw their own conclusion. you cannot forcefeed people your ideas on what you percieve is the truth. give em the info, and let em decide for themselves. I challenge anyone here to find a complete written history on the PI, it does not exist, so who's to say that kali doesnt? (I disagree, but you could argue it). teach those willing to listen in your backyard, have them teach there students, this is how a movement grows. putting everyone else down is like religion, its pointless to argue, and only makes you enemies.

[haumana2000]

damn I hate when I write in a hurry! sorry that it looks like I need hooked on phonics!

[dearnis.com]

damn I hate when I write in a hurry! sorry that it looks like I need hooked on phonics!

Yeah, the typo cop calls a major bust on you.

HOWEVER, the post is very good. And I agree, I like the conceptual scheme that Wiley put together. I dont agree 100%, but I like it.
Unfortunately I can see where this will lead; various people bashing Mark in one way or another.

[haumana2000]

oh well, I think there just needs to be a global revelation that uhh...

You can't please everyone all the time!

WE should focus on the preservation of these arts for the future , not on dissecting and disseminating every wrong thats perceived from past events.

For that, why dont we take all the advancements that black americans have made in the last decade, put that aside, and complain about slavery for another hundered friggin years! AS filipinos why dont we stop going to college, working toward positive political endeavors, and making a brighter future for our kids, to sit and whine about how the we cannot advance because the spanish are holding us down! Lets see some info on how we can preserve these traditions. Wait....positive input, nah that just wouldnt be this forum would it?

[thekuntawman]

again,

this discussion is not about somebody who wants to use the name KALI, it is the making up of information to prove that it is real.

-combination of kamay and lihok
-shortning of "kalis"
-80 dialects, but the ones who say it doesnt even speak one
-how do we know it doesnt exist, vs. how do we know it does (just ask some people who never been there)
-look at this filipino guy, and that filipino guy, they all use it!
-all i care about is the effectiveness, not the name of the style (how about the honesty of the teachers?)

this discussion reminds me of when students in south africa were reading in there history books, that the dutch got there first, before the africans. now when the africans gain control and want to change the history books, the white south africans say "hey, its just words in a book, who cares?"

you dont care about the history, because its not yours.

oh, and "you guys" is not for everyone here, just the people i am talking about in my postings (mostly ones who get offended when i say it).

[haumana2000]

From Kuntawman's website:

If you crave authentic Southeast Asian Martial Arts that are not watered down or training that is not compromised, then give us a call…

(1st art on the list... Filipino Kuntaw Karate!)

(Hmmm... Didn't know that Karate was a Tagalog word, sounds Karazy!)

(Authentic Southeast Asian Martial arts?? here's the list

Typhoon Karate is a combination of Chinese Kung Fu, 2 styles of Filipino Kuntaw (Gatdula and Boggs Lao), Southeast Asian-Style Kick-Boxing, Tae Kwon Do, Presas style Arnis, and Gatdula system Fighting Eskrima.


Typhoon Karate is the style developed by Punong Guro Mustafa Gatdula during the mid-1990s.

(Dayum thats ancient!)

Kuntaw is the family fighting system of our Head Instructor, Mustafa Maurice Gatdula. There is a great debate concerning the origin of Philippine Kuntaw, but most agree that Kuntaw originated in China, and arrived in the Southern Philippines through trade with Chinese sailors and emigrants. Kuntaw and its cousin art, Silat, are bare handed and blade-fighting arts practiced by the Moslems of that region
(Wheres your Proof? Is there a written record of this historical belief? You've made an effort to disprove what every other teacher believes accoring to what they were taught so what gives?) A little bending to try to authenticate your beliefs vs other instructors.

Gatdula-style Fighting Eskrima

The Gatdula system of Eskrima is called our “Fighting Eskrima”. We use the term “fighting Eskrima” to differentiate our system from the classical forms more popular today. While many styles of Eskrima employ several weapons throughout their curriculum, Gatdula’s Fighting Eskrima (GFE) specializes in only two weapons: the single stick and the single knife.

(You aren't putting a new name (fighting Eskrima) to describe an older style of Filipino combat are you??? thats a no, no.)

Point is, that the PI has no written history. People will always mold according to their personal beliefs and their own agenda. It is a name, nothing more. I even remember a post where you said you use the term Kali occasionally.

Come on braddahs, we need to put this one to bed.

[thekuntawman]

"typhoon kuntaw karate" is a style that i made for people who do not want to fight full contact. except, they still do, right before the black belt level. i add the word "karate" just like i add "kali" for ADVERTISING. since some people insist on KALI as an art, its the only way i can compete with the schools that do use it, and since most people know the word KARATE, its the only way i can compete with the karate people. i do not teach in back yards, i have a commercial location, so 15-20 students will not be enough. the difference between me and other commercial schools are, my youngest age is 13, i have no womans classes or tae bo, and all of my students fight.

and yes, i use the word "FIGHTING ESKRIMA", because there is a difference between most of the eskrima around, and the eskrima i do. and the difference? "fighting", not "drilling". there is a big damn difference, and the people who sign up quickly find out what they are.

so a new name for an old idea? yes, because what is considered old in my town, is actually new.

so its my turn to say

whats in a name? the important thing is, can i back up what i am teaching? yup, anytime.

[thekuntawman]

Originally posted by haumana2000


1.(Hmmm... Didn't know that Karate was a Tagalog word, sounds Karazy!)

2.(Dayum thats ancient!)


3.(Wheres your Proof? Is there a written record of this historical belief? You've made an effort to disprove what every other teacher believes accoring to what they were taught so what gives?) A little bending to try to authenticate your beliefs vs other instructors.


4.(You aren't putting a new name (fighting Eskrima) to describe an older style of Filipino combat are you??? thats a no, no.)

5.Point is, that the PI has no written history. People will always mold according to their personal beliefs and their own agenda. It is a name, nothing more. I even remember a post where you said you use the term Kali occasionally.

6.Come on braddahs, we need to put this one to bed.

1. "karate", like "judo" are common words for martial arts back home, especially a FMA teacher who wants to look "modern", even if there is no karate or judo in those systems. presas style arnis, for example was once known as "arjuken karate" (ARnis, JUdo KENdo). like everyone says, its just a name. but when the students come, i tell them the truth about what they will be learning.

2. "ancient"? the philippine martial arts is ancient. the difference, is with us and the arts of other countries, change is tradition for us. the art should change with every generation. my art is ancient, but its my own modern version of this ancient art. the difference between me making my own system, and many other people, is i have been doing my martial art for more than 20 years. i earned the right to do this as a teacher, not a "instant guro" with 5 years.

3. like you said, nobody has proof. i even use to believe what i was reading. but i saw with my own eyes, and heard with my own ears about the existence of kali in the philippines. i dont fight against the use of kali, only the false stories people tell about it. if you are talking about muslims who do kuntaw or silat, i am proof of that.

4. new names are not a nono for the philippine martial arts. people do it all the time. but at least i didnt say i have preserved a lost art of ____ eskrima (or kinomutai/panantukan/dumug)

5. i disagree. yes, the philippines has almost no written history. but when people change it, it is not what they actually believe that makes them do it, like you said, its personal agenda. many people dont want to let go of the word kali, they find any kind of excuse or "proof" about it. then that lets some filipinos back home call what they do "kali" and make a lot of money doing it. you know what? if i was poor, and saw the opportunity to take advantage off some uneducated foreigners, i would probably do it too.

6. no, as long as people are trying to change what americans think is really happening in the philippines (existence of false arts, corruption in government, starvation etc) the pilipino with a consious should not let it rest. this is how the philippine got colonized before, and why filipinos let shady government get rich while people are starving. let it go, if you dont care.

[haumana2000]

Kuntawman, Just to illustrate that there are those who embrace this term AS Filipinos, even if the term did not exist...

I wonder if Moromoro will be there? I doubt it.At the age of 66, my life has been devoted to the preservation of the system with the desire that all the elements of the great teachings from my grandfather, the late magnifico Supreme Grandmaster Conrado B. Tortal, will be kept sacred and that the teachings must be imparted with scholarly atmosphere. In the course of such preservation my teachings with many different environments taught me to conceptualize the system into a productive well structured methodology in order that the learning process can be easily understood without sacrificing the true chemistry of the cultural Philosophy - truly Filipino. My emphasis on the intellectual calisthenics was to make everybody understands that in order to learn and to achieve the true discipline is to understand the Philosophical values before understanding the techniques. To me this is the foundation of the true filipino discipline referred as the Filipino Martial Arts.
At this juncture I don't want to use the terminology Filipino Martial Arts because it seems that the more someone uses the word Filipino Martial Arts the value of discipline is reduce to a very discouraging stature. Where can you find a Filipino Martial Arts having a name Escrima in Spanish, Arnis claimed as a Mexican word and a truly Filipino otherwise known as Kali, so if we follow these three names, we follow how the Spaniards name themselves as Jose Mario Francisco De al Fuente or Maria Theresa Antonieta Ledesma in simple logic by using three names as we often see in most books or video tapes or names of the school, Arnis, Escrima, Kali is not Filipino but Spanish in substance. So if to follow the real Filipino culture in making names, it is only one name: Juan or Pedro or Jose or Macario etc. It would be rather more distinct to say, Filipino indigenous discipline, the art of Kali, a Filipino Fighting System. Since martial arts today is identified as Chinese, Japanese,Korean, Indonesian, Malaysian. Filipinos and other names that are existing in many versions, the original practices of discipline has been reduced to more of a fitness program, sports competition and ranking make me blackbelt mania or make me certified instructors after four seminars or how much to be a blackbelt syndrome.

In the old China, to study Kungfu regardless of style, one must be willing to travel and climb the highest mountain peak where the 70 year grandmaster lives surrounded by wooden trees. And for one to be accepted he must do all the ordeals before he can be accepted as a student or in Japan, one must follow the path of a warrior or in Korea one must do what the masters wants to do as test.
And in the Philippines one must have to accept the beating of the feet or arms before the techniques were taught or in Indonesia one must be a Muslim to learn the silats, or to fulfill the 40 days rituals before becoming a student of silat. Of course that is impossible to do these things at the present conditions. But what ever the changes, the Doctrine of Discipline must not be altered or remove from the daily practices. One of the Disciplines is the Discipline of Loyalty, loyalty is not only to the Master or persons in authority but loyalty to the tenets of that Doctrine of Discipline.

Pekiti-Tirsia is an Institution of Higher Studies in terms of the Filipino Cultural Arts - the Art of Kali, a Filipino Fighting System. It is an Institution where the higher studies in combative technology has been enhanced through hazardous personal contacts with the people from the hinterlands of the different islands in the Philippines with the purpose to authentic the originality of the systems interoperability and to check the relationship of the cultural practices from the ceremonial dances to ritualistic metaphysical power applied to the fighting advantage.

The task was so important because as the only remaining Pekiti-Tirsia in authority I have to fulfill the mission of my great grandfather that in order for me to expand my understanding on how the Pekiti-Tirsia can be compared to other system I must interface with the non- Pekiti-Tirsia system not to copy or pirate their techniques but to make comparative analysis what is the weak parts in the other system and to find out what is the strong points in other systems. As what they did in the past with all his brothers making long journeys to find out who were the best in certain places in the Islands and neighboring Islands. More than 12 years in the Philippines and in and out to countries in Asia, interfacing with Indonesian and Malaysian Art that is truly Asian arts provided me a wider perspectives that the foundation of the Pekiti-Tirsia footwork strategies and the open hand strategies found its plurality in the mountains of Sumatra where the word siko is found which is also siko in Ilonggo, which is an elbow, mata also mata to Ilongo, the eyes and the sipa or sikad, kicks also in Ilonggo my own dialect and to check the word Kali in Malaysia was mentioned as often in the sentence as the words were spoken where the word Kali is a prefix in the Filipino language.

So the mission of the Pekiti-Tirsia is to provide each student, instructors and master instructors a scholarly materials of what is truly Filipino with indigenous materials based on Philosophy, logic and reasons that in the course for the furtherance of continuing mastery, what is truly Filipino culture braced with hospitality, courtesy and discipline will leave as lasting legacy as were experienced by the Spaniards in 1521, Americans in 1900, Japanese in 1942. It was inexcusable defeat that made the Filipino Fighting Art, the art of indigenous virtue, the art that won the war.

Pekiti-Tirsia will continue to live with that victory and we will defend that victory at all cost to preserve the only legacy proud to be called the LEGENDARIES of the modern times in the living past.

This has been proven by the first Filipino Martial Arts tournament in Cebu in 1979. Against the veteran Doce Pares claimed undefeated since 1930 in many full contact challenges. Pekiti-Tirsia made the first victory by defeating the Champion of Doce Pares before the crowd of 5,000 people at the Cebu Coliseum on record.This was the first test how was an original indigenous technology of Pekiti-Tirsia defeating the Escrima, Judo, Aikido mixed under the banner of Doce Pares.

On August 2004, the Pekiti-Tirsia Global Organization and the Pekiti-Tirsia Pitbulls with a joint sponsorship of the Force Recon Marines will sponsor the Battle of Kali 2004 to be held in Metro Manila-Philippines in an Extreme Full Contact Tournament on a Surrender Policy with a simple rules: "If you cannot stand the heat, get out from the kitchen" This is an open tournament provided the system or style is existing and willing to accept the rules.

55 years old and up are invited to join no headgear policy, 3 minutes per round total of 6 rounds. Choice of all out policy (Mas todas). No definition of titles or ranks. Come to what you believe and go if you have no business.

Below 50 years old no headgear, no body armour, surrender policy, no judges, no referres. Only Sports Marshall will separate after one surrenders.

By virtue of the Filipino Fighting Arts the Philippines is the best location for this type of tournament because if the tradition is correct, dignity of the traditional art must be respected and that no reason for one to disrespect by disproving that the tradition is wrong. If one believes that it can break the tradition then he must enter into this tournament. Our Force Recon Marines from heavy weight to light is on training now at least 6 hours a day following the tradition until August 2004, they are prepared to disprove that tradition is wrong but will defend that the tradition is right. So our other ultimate mission is to find out where and who wants to break the indigenous tradition, that will destroy the legacy of what is truly Filipino Fighting Arts - the art of Kali. Then we will stand to defend at all cost and maintain the tradition of the victories made by our great fathers who where before us.

There will be various fighting competitions subject to the choices agreed by both parties, this will be held at the most prestigious sports center at a full view of many people including the TV/media channels.

[Cruentus]

At the age of 66, my life has been devoted to the preservation of the system with the desire that all the elements of the great teachings from my grandfather, the late magnifico Supreme Grandmaster Conrado B. Tortal

According to your profile, you are not 66 years old; so who wrote this prose? Where did it come from?

:)

[haumana2000]

Damn im sorry! This is from Leo Gaje's website. I just pasted it to illustrate that there are thosein the PI who acutally use the term as a sense of pride.

[Banana Man]

haumana2000,

Which website did you get that quote from?

Thanks

[haumana2000]

the international pekiti tirsia website. forums. Wealh of info, and great art!

[Cruentus]

Originally posted by haumana2000
Damn im sorry! This is from Leo Gaje's website. I just pasted it to illustrate that there are thosein the PI who acutally use the term as a sense of pride.

Thats cool. I didn't think you were claiming it; just wondering where it came from. :asian:

[Sun_Helmet]

Kuntawman posted this original message everywhere after going on the HUNTED film's website and ***NOT READING THE WHOLE SITE *** which addressed the very issues he incorrectly stated as being "misrepresented".

The truth will set you free.

Everyone please read the rest of the story here:

huntedmovie.com
then click on the North East section where it will show the Production Notes.
Midway through the notes you will read this:

"Kali is the term that's used here in the west" says Kayanan. "In the Philippines it's usually by the tribe, or the family, which is where the Sayoc Kali (my note: term) comes in that Tom (Kier) refers to. It also goes by Arnis - Eskrima."

This was on the hunted movie site all along. No weird plot to change the world.
However, after only a PARTIAL reading of the HUNTED website's content, Kuntawman posted this angry accusation all over the internet.

I've been hopping around every online forum trying to correct this false statement. A simple email to me or post at sayoc.com's forum would also have cleared it up.

Let me add a little more:

We at Sayoc Kali worked on the HUNTED so that perhaps the film would shed a positive light to all our Filipino Fighting Arts' brothers and sisters. Regardless of what system you came from. Regardless if you called it Eskrima, Arnis or Kali. What mattered was the Filipino Fighting Arts had a moment in the celluloid sun. It took almost a year of very very hard work. It took more than I or Tom Kier, but lots of dedication and sacrifice from many of our students and of course Tuhon Sayoc.

Did you folks know that before we got on the film, the knife fighting was choreographed by Tang Soo do stylists? Not to bash TSD but what they came up with wasn't what the studio folks wanted. It took a lot of work to get our arts repped onscreen. It was a long uphill battle. Thanks to the director, producer and the actors... they recognized the real thing when they finally saw it. What you saw onscreen is five percent of the total work.

For those who have to use the term "Karate" to offer a Filipino based combative indigenous art to the public. This film was for you. After all, we can't use the word "kali" right? Well, maybe now we can. The word is closer to our native pre-hispanic influences anyway is it not? Because prior to the Oceanic Malays habitation of the islands, ***THERE WAS NO NAME FOR OUR MOTHER ART***. There is NO RECORD of an official name for the warrior arts of the ancients. It surely wasn't ARNIS or ESKRIMA. If we really want to find the true indigenous tribe's combat art, we will have to ask the Negritoes- the AETAS who have been there before the brown skins.

There is no record of Arnis or Eskrima terms in any text prior to the 1900's. That's way beyond the time of Legaspi's arrival. It is certainly way before the Majapahit battled the Sulu warriors and were repelled. The vaunted Majapahit who dared to tattoo the faces of Kubalai Khan's emissaries with insults when the Mongols threatened them.

KALI is closer to the pre hispanic language our ancestors spoke. KALI is a word that is derived from the Sanskrit. Yes, Sanskrit - a language that existed in some form in ALL of the Philippine islands prior to the West discovering the gold and maritime trade routes for a crown's exploitation. The linguistic roots which are deeper than the Spanish based Eskrima or Arnis. Sanskrit is the calligraphy from which our alibata is based.

Sanskrit is the language from which the word "Maharlika" originates. You guys know what that term means right? There is definite proof they were there when Legaspi arrived. And that term is Sanskrit in its root linguistic form.

Somewhere in the seventies or late sixties, the manongs here in the US embraced it. It stood for the survival arts of the ancients. It said to all, "This art is not from Spain, no matter what it is called today in the islands".

I'm proud that Guro Inosanto wrote this term in his books. It *is* the Mother Art.

Because the Mother art lives inside all the surviving Filipino's descendants.

For even if it wasn't called Kali in the islands, - those with fighting Malay blood here in the states can call it that now.

No one knows what the ancients called their fighting methods. Yet some of us don't want to call it what the Spaniards called it. It is our prerogative as warriors, as modern Maharlikas. There's no shame in the terms Arnis or Eskrima. But don't shame anyone who wishes otherwise. That's what Divide and conquer tactics were all about.

Call it what you want, because prior to the Spaniards... our ancestors did.

--Rafael Kayanan--
CO- Knife Consultant and Choreographer on the HUNTED
SAYOC KALI - The ART of the BLADE
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[Guro Harold]

Originally posted by haumana2000
the international pekiti tirsia website. forums. Wealh of info, and great art!

Hi haumana2000,

Could you please provide a link as a reference if possible. There are a ton of P-T sites out there and a lot of new ones recently. :)

Thanks,

Palusut

[haumana2000]

pekiti europe is the org that hosts the forum.

[Cruentus]

Well, well.....now there is a different take on things!

Thanks for the input; I am sure it will enlighten many.

Also, although people are quick to fling crap on the net, no one here has taken it upon themselves to "Thank" the Soyac Kali group for getting FMA into the limelight a little. At least not here, anyways.

So I'll be the first. As a Filipino Martial Artist, I would like to thank all of the Sayoc Kali people who helped give the Filipino Arts some exposure. You have done a great thing for the arts!

:D

[Bob Hubbard]

:asian:

[haumana2000]

maraming Salamat, Mabuhay ang Sayoc Kali!
Good job guys!

[Seigi]

Thank-you, also.

Peace

[Banana Man]

Rafael,

Thanks for the diligent research and very informative post. It thoroughly answered a question that I had posed a couple of days ago regarding the name of the Art and its history.

BTW the choreography rocked!


Thanks,

Allain Atienza
atienzakali.com
:D

[dearnis.com]

For people who don't know him Rafael Kayanan is, in addition to being a first rate martial artist, and a damn talented regular artist , a very devoted historian of the FMA and all things Filipino. We are fortunate to have his commentary here.

Chad

PS
Allain, welcome aboard as well!

[Guro Harold]

Tuhon Rafael,

Excellent post and a job well done to both you and Tuhon Kier on the Hunted.

Harold (Palusut)
IMAF, Inc
NC State Rep for Ray Dionaldo's FCS-Kali

[Sun_Helmet]

Thanks everyone.

I hope my post will help move things forward and is accepted with the positive tone for which it was intended.

I never had any issues against kuntawman on other forums outside of this one post. We just felt that this one post's accusations were unfounded and untrue. I only wish him and his students well in their studies of the arts.

Gumagalang (another Sanskrit based word ),

--Rafael--
Sayoc Kali
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[Federico]

Sun-Helmet, a question on history.

When did the Sulu warriors drive out the Majahapit empire? What source are you quoting from? I must confess I never heard that one before, and if there is a reference book that Ive missed Id like to find it.

[Sun_Helmet]

Federico,
Just reread my post and found that in the rush, that particular sentence may have been worded improperly. Thanks for pointing this out!

<< It is certainly way before the Majapahit battled the Sulu warriors and were repelled. The vaunted Majapahit who dared to tattoo the faces of Kubalai Khan's emissaries with insults when the Mongols threatened them.
>>

Which brings us to the Ming Shih (Annals of the Ming Dynasty). It states that in 1368, three years prior to Prapanca's epic poem... the Tausug warriors of Sulu in the Philippines invaded Borneo. ***It was the Sulu warriors who were repelled.***

The Sulus battled the Majapahit's forces in the vassal state of Borneo and plundered Brunei. However, a larger force of Majapahit arrived from Java only to find it evacuated by the Sulus. So even the word "repelled" may be too strong if they never battled the Majapahit's reinforcements.

What it shows is that the Philippines were never conquered or ruled by the Majapahit nor the Sri Vijayans because it was in turn the Sulus who were an aggressor to the empire's other vassal state of Borneo.

Source is "The Philippines: A Unique Nation" by Dr. Sonia M. Zaide and Dr. Gregorio F. Zaide.

What this book contends is that Indonesian version of history takes certain liberties in the spread of the Majapahit. Somewhat bolstered by President Sukarno of Indonesia in his attempt to restore the grandeur of the Majapahit Empire. Something that the book, "Cambridge History of SE Asia" also implies.

The Indonesian poet Prapanca, wrote in his "Nagarakertagama" that the Majapahit had 94 vassal states including Solot. However the Zaide's discount that as historical myth because it implied that Solot ( mentioned twice in the poem) was actually Sulu. A Dutch scholar, Professor C. Berg whose critical studies on the areas mentioned in the poem revealed two places which actually went by the name of Solot. One was a small island in the Lesser Sundas and the other in the northeastern portion of Borneo which still carried the name Solot at the time of the book's writing.

The Nagarakertagama also listed a place called "Saludung" as a part of the Majapahit Empire. Majapahit-centric supporters state that Saludung was really the Philippines but the Zaides' contend that it is in northwest Borneo. Other Chinese writings (in 1178, 1225, 1349) also confirm this stating the Sri Vijayan empire had only 15 vassal states without any mention of the area which later became known as the Philippines.

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However, this does not discount the immense effect of Indian culture upon the islands. The Philippines was greatly influenced through hundreds of years of India / Malay / Indonesian / Filipino commerce. Later on, even through royal marriage between the cultures. Thus, the Mahayana Buddhist based Sri Vijayans and the Brammanistic / Hindu based Majapahit, both deeply rooted in Indian culture filtered into Philippine traditions even to this day.

Majapahit / SV culture came in through interaction not war, for the Filipino natives had methods of indigenous warfare. How different they were from the other Malay tribes is unknown for there are no detailed records of the various tribe's fighting methods prior to the Sanskrit based culture's arrival. In turn, the islands adopted the earliest known terminology for weapons from Sanskrit. The Sanskrit word for weapon, "Senjata" can be traced all through Indonesia and Malaysia. It is called "Sandata" in the Philippines.

The Moro dress of tight fitting trousers were also an influence of the Indian putees. The female's sarong were a modified version of the sari. Even the turban were worn prior to Islam's arrival. Look at the vibrant colors of the fabric and the designs and it will reflect their Indian influence. The Sanskrit word for stronghold is "Kona" which reflects the Indonesian word "Kota" which in turn is the same word for Southern Philippine fortress/towns "kota/Cotta". Even the athletically built warriors of the Kalingas with their headaxes are named after the Kalingas of South Orissa, India.

Sanskrit contains the ***FIRST*** unified terminology for the Philippine island's descriptions of war.

--Rafael--
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[thekuntawman]

my post was about the explanation of what is kali on that website. okay, i did not read everything, and i respect what you said about kali, that it is usually called arnis eskrima. no problem there. and i also dont have problem when people call there arts "kali".

my problem, and you can blame it on the people who made the website ( i did not say i was mad at SAYOC KALI, only at whoever wrote the website), but my problem was the whole section on "kali", the history, explanations, all of that could make the philippine martial arts sound good, was used to say "KALI is all of this", and does not mention arnis and eskrima. even though, it points out that some of the arts are changed through the years, but "kali was passed from father to son, kali has this in it, kali has that in it..." so in other words, that whole explanations went to say how great KALI is, and that was it. even though kali was kept alive in secret, bla bla blah, some filipinos blended there arts with spanish styles.... i think you know what part i was reading.

so anyway, i was originally happy that the philippine martial arts was put into a big movie, but then i was disappointed that it was only the philippine martial arts of those who call there arts KALI that got the real attention. if the site spoke about ALL filipino arts, or a blanket of the philippine martial arts, my feelings would be different. but the site makes an effort to hype KALI, and draw a difference of kali to arnis eskrima. i read what you said, and i know you combated that, but the site did not, and that is what i was pissed off about.

anyway going back to my original point, the art of KALI did not pass through the generations, it became arnis eskrima, even though some people are going back to calling the arts kali.

the information you gave is interesting, but it does not deny that kali is separate from arnis eskrima, and it does not prove that KALI is an art that made it from prehispanic times to today. KALI is an old name that has been brought back to life. as long as the students know this, and do not get the idea that kali is different/better than arnis eskrima, i have no arguement.

[lhommedieu]

What I meant though, was the true combart martial arts of old China are practiced more in the U.S. than in China. Styles like Hung Gar, Tai Chi, Wing Chun, etc are forbidden to be practiced in China (or so sayeth the documentary I saw on the Discovery Channel). Since the traditional styles of combat martial arts were outlawed, WuShu was developed.

Traditional martial arts are still practiced in the Peoples' Republic of China, and, although many teachers were persecuted during the Cultural Revolution, those who made it through that terrible time (now in their '70's - 90's ) continue to pass their legacy to their students. You are indeed correct that many of these students are now located in the United States; however, a fair number still travel to the PRC to further their studies (now that traditional martial arts can be openly taught and studied without fear of reprisal).

Best,

Steve Lamade

[Sun_Helmet]

<< i read what you said, and i know you combated that, but the site did not, and that is what i was pissed off about.>>

That would be fine. However your original post appeared on ****EVERY**** FMAs/blade related forum and it will probably never be read by those you were refering to :

<<YOU GUYS KNOW NOW, WHAT IS KALI AND WHAT IS THE TRUTH ABOUT PHILIPPINE MARTIAL ARTS, AND YOU STILL WANT TO TELL YOUR OWN VERSION OF OUR HISTORY. why not? you do it with every body else history, the filipino might as well be next.
>>

"YOU GUYs" according to your last post, would refer to the people who do promos for Paramount's website, correct?

They certainly are ***not *** reading the various knife related forums, nor are they active members of online FMA message boards. They were just working on a deadline and are now ten projects ahead on something else.

Specifically stating whom you were "pissed off" at would have been clearer.

As far as the explanation of KALI, here is how many of us see it today:

The term for the collective Pre- Hispanic Philippine Island's Martial Art / Mother Art ***if A term ever existed*** is forever LOST.

The term for the collective Present day Philippine Island's Martial Art /Mother Art can be anything we choose to call it today. KALI... ARNIS... ESKRIMA... FMA... FFA ...etc. That's because the art is alive and evolving the way combative arts are supposed to.

We agree on that.

Your issues are obviously with a studio's website authors who you must understand are NOT Filipino history buffs, are non - FMA's , nor were they present on set or training with us. They spoke to me on the phone for a total of ten minutes - approximately two minutes on the oriigin of FMAs - you're lucky I got anything in about Arnis - Eskrima.

Now ... we still have to make sure our system got credit on screen.

Our system just happens to be called Sayoc KALI.

Of course our students/ fellow instructors want it to be known that it was Sayoc KALI who worked on the film. So we are not going to call it Sayoc ARNIS or Sayoc ESKRIMA (nothing bad about it but we use the term, KALI). Likewise, we wouldn't assume that anyone else would be obligated to call for the sake of an example: San Miguel ESKRIMA... San Miguel KALI, if SME got a chance to work on a film. We'd be very proud they got on set, repped and did their thing.

From now on we are crediting anything we do for film SAYOC COMBAT CHOREOGRAPHY.

This way it states that :

1. It is for choreographic purposes, so people can distinguish from Sayoc KALI's methods and stuff for film.

2. It is the work of SAYOC people only.

3. And that our forte in this sense, are working on films that have exciting combative scenes in it.

This way when a newbie inquires about that martial art style on the screen... it will be interpreted as whatever an instructor dictates it to be.

Perhaps KARATE instructors will say it is KARATE, KUNG FU will say it is some ancient Chinese art. SILAT folks will call it SILAT.

And KALI / ARNIS / ESKRIMA geeks will sling patis at each other over terminology.

so...

SAYOC COMBAT CHOREOGRAPHY

You'll see it again.

--Rafael--
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[Rob Wilson]

I most definitely am an Arnis geek. But I don't segregate or discriminate and any of you Kali and Escrima geeks are more than welcome to play with me!

Hey, Thanks for so much information you guys. It is great to hear (read) so much straight from legitimate practitioners- You are making this geek's eyes bug out behind his coke-bottle glasses!

Thanks!

[lhommedieu]

...if SME got a chance to work on a film. We'd be very proud they got on set, repped and did their thing...

SAYOC COMBAT CHOREOGRAPHY

You'll see it again...

Thank you. Looking forward to seeing "SAYOC COMBAT CHOREOGRAPHY" in the future.

Best,

Steve Lamade

[thekuntawman]

again,

when i say "you guys" i am talking about the people who fits the description of what i was talking about. if you do not tell people that kali is different from arnis eskrima, then "you guys" is not talking about you.

but, i know the website authors did not get this information on there own, and i am surprised they did not cross the information they "found" with your history of "kali". but if you say they did not, and the information did not come from you, i am satisfied with that, and i apologize to you. but yes, i am pissed off that people are continuing to push a made up history of "kali" just to hold on to the name, or to make themselves seem more "authentic" then the "spanish based" arnis and eskrima.(btw, i have seen the western martial artists, both here in CA and in the east coast, and they all did FMA before "discovering" WMA)

and i posted my feelings "all over the internet" because i was hoping to get some people talking about "KALI" and hoping to reach some people who just didnt know about the real orgin of what we know about the word.

i did not post to sayoc kali site, because i dont visit that site, and when i found out there was a forum there, was not interested in continuing a discussion, espcially one that would be personal. but now, that i have an invitation to post there, i probably will.

anyway, i am sure the fight choreagraphy on the movie was really good, and i have been wanting to see it for a while. i am glad to see the FMA represented in a movie.

but i am still pissed off the myth of kali is even stronger with the development of this movie.

[lhommedieu]

Re. the "kali" issue I reiterate my assertion (originally stated in another thread in this forum) that the use of the word "kali" is legitimate insofar as it reflects a contemporary understanding of the term: "kali" refers to Filipino fighting arts and can be used interchangably with "eskrima" and "arnis." At this point, it would appear that most of us are in agreement about this issue.

With respect to any irritation with the way that "creation myths" are told (to the effect that "kali" is the "mother art" from which all other Filipino martial arts stem) - I consul patience. The source of these stories is folklore (which always retains a tenacious grip on the imagination) - as related by the earliest eskrimadors to teach openly in this country. These stories may well have been included in the first written accounts of FMA (written to introduce and popularize arts for which there was practically no written evidence), and may have contributed further to the attraction of the "kali" myth alluded to above - but most eskrimadors today understand that the "kali" story is just a story.

We should consider that we are in the middle of a "growing up" period with respect to our understanding of the Filipino fighting arts. Now that older generations of Filipino martial artists have successfully passed on their legacy, it is up to the "youngsters" to continue to practice and research the arts to which we have been entrusted. With respect to writing history, my personal experience has been that all intitial attempts are subject to correction: when I wrote a brief history of Momoy Canete and published it on my web page, several people wrote me and offered corrections and additions that I gladly included in the final version:

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze4fs8i/momoy.htm

In this respect, Wiley's remarks (in Filipino Martial Culture) about the first attempts to document a tradition (which I exerpt from an earlier post of mine on the Dogbrothers public forum) are interesting:

"The recording and documentation of history is an arduous and often difficult undertaking. While reading about history we frequently believe the point of view of the author; however, this is often incomplete and inaccurate. In particular, when tracing the origin of an art of war, such as Eskrima, it is often difficult to string together the bits and pieces of fragmented information into chronological order. Also, since the exact origin of the art was never documented by those who were directly responsible for its founding, much is left to speculation and the cross-referencing of pertinent information to historical events in the surrounding geographical region."

Wiley is the first to admit that scholarship in the area of Filipino martial arts is fraught with the possibility of error due to the fact that, until quite recently, no one wrote anything down. This means that the anthropologist or historian of Filipino martial arts tradition must rely on oral history for many of his facts and conclusions. With respect to oral history, Wiley writes that:

"Although oral traditions do suffice in the absence or paucity of written documentation, they often lead to the formation of legends. Regrettably, this oral dissemination of knowledge has resulted in a number of authors unknowingly perpetrating false information, as these stories are often taken at face value."

(Note: It is perhaps true that Wiley is as much a victim in this regard as the authors whom he criticizes.)

Wiley’s additional remarks about oral traditions are particularly noteworthy:

“…(O)ral historiography is considered a legitimate method of inquiry in researching various aspects of Filipino culture today. Demetrio’s position on this is well taken: ‘oral tradition is concerned not with authorship or fact…Most of the time what is handed down as tradition has no author, nor can it be established as ‘fact’ always. Yet the fact that a story, a proverb, a myth is handed down either orally or in writing, whether in its entirety or in part, argues for its value and importance for both the tradition bearers and receivers."

Speaking of the attempt of some Filipino martial arts systems to trace their roots back to Lapu Lapu, for example, Wiley writes that:

“However, while the connection between Lapulapu, the Bothoan, and these masters’ respective martial arts is historically unfounded, their belief in this connection is of great importance. From an anthropologically (sic) perspective, the historical accuracy of these accounts is less important than what these practitioners believe and why. It is precisely these creation myths which provide the martial arts practitioner with a sense of meaning, identity, and orientation to world historical events in general. To this end...the researcher “can learn much about meaningful action by listening to storytellers as they depict their own lives.”

Best,

Steve Lamade

[Sun_Helmet]

<<but, i know the website authors did not get this information on there own, and i am surprised they did not cross the information they "found" with your history of "kali". but if you say they did not, and the information did not come from you, i am satisfied with that, and i apologize to you. >>

You will note that even in the production notes section - they mis-quoted me by listing "Italians" as a major influence in FMAs. When in fact, I said "Spanish" which is pretty easy for many of US to differentiate, but to someone unfamiliar to the FMAS it is understandable.

FWIW, you haven't seen The HUNTED yet... there is no mention of FMAs, KALI, ESKRIMA or ARNIS in the film. It isn't about FMAS - but there's FMAs in it.

Remember that when we got on the HUNTED set- Sayoc Kali were **NOT** the original choreographers. Tuhon Tom Kier was the knife consultant but that was it. The script was already written. Previously, non FMAs choreographers were assigned and working on moves with the actors. Later on, I was asked to come along for an extended period when the director wanted to see a demo of Sayoc Kali. He wantedto see something more realistic and brutal... like real knife fight would be. When he asked us how long a real knife fight would be- we answered "maybe five to ten seconds".

Well that won't do. Not for this film anyway.

Prior to going to Portland, I asked a very knowledgeable FMAs instructor (a veteran on numerous films) how things went about on a Hollywood set. He advised that it was VERY VERY difficult to get anything on film that doesn't get filtered, changed, overruled or dismissed by the powers that be. Simply because FMAs isn't the big trend, the film folks don't understand it, and that the moves are less cinematic.

If one looks back at Hollywood cinema, you would be hard pressed to find a single knife tap or cool stick work. "Bourne Identity" was still being shot at this time. "Exposure" was probably the closest to FMAs, but hardly constitutes as a big budget film.

We felt this was a good challenge and goal. A rare opportunity to get FMAs foot in the door.

So when I got called on set to assist Tuhon Tom to demo Sayoc Kali.. we free flowed and received a very positive response all around.

From then on we worked little by little to get this and that on the film. Every move we included, had been dissected and carefully presented to the decision makers so that they would be able to grasp the intent. On location getting that time is precious so we had to make sure things were moving along without being overzealous.

So in three months or so, we did a intensive instruction course on not only FMAs, but the mentality of a knife person, tons of safety precautions (keep the fake blades awy from eye level, make sure the collapsibles don't freeze in cold temperatures and get stuck, etc.) and touched on Filipino history. Mind you, the Filipino history was rather sparse since the script had nothing to do with that. The film folks were all about focusing on things that would complement the script.

We knew enough to honor that.

They didn't want to see any silat, no stick work, no sword work, but they were open to our ideas of medical management, projectile and the Sayoc Kali vital template we teach to military folks... modified for film of course.

We got to show a mini introduction of FMAs with the first fight scene between TLJ and BDT... you will note that they go from empty hand drill mode, to semi serious contact simulating a blade in their empty hands, to knife vs. empty hand, stick vs empty hand, knife vs. stick, small stick vs. knife, empty hand vs. empty hand (looking to get to the knife), grappling with a knife.... all in thirty seconds.

We were also able to have that training sequence written into the script which is rather unheard of in those circles.

It's interesting to read all these online posts commenting on The HUNTED, how things could have been done this way or that.

------

Steve Lamade,

You're welcome. I've only met one of the Canetes but have heard wonderful things about all of them from Tuhon Chris Sayoc. One thing that he has stressed (that others seem to forget) was that the Canetes at large were the biggest influence (outside of his family) on his point of view of what a FM Artists should be .

That's something, since he's seen many of the the old timers from way back and even trained with them.

Also enjoyed your post on writing history - well put.

--Rafael--
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[Cthulhu]

Tuhon Rafael,

Welcome to the board and thanks for all the historical information! I hope we get to see more of it.

I went to see 'The Hunted' with my instructors (AldonAsher and arnisandyz on this board, both affiliated with Guro Dionaldo's FCS) and was very happy with the representation of the FMA onscreen, considering the allowances that must be made with a thematic presentation of any type of fighting.

Good work!

Cthulhu

[arnisador]

Sun_Helmet, great to have you hear--I've heard many good things about you (e.g. at Jeff Chung's seminars).

Federico, that was interesting info. about the pronucniation of 'kalis'!