I went to the Russian Martial art site and saw a video for this guy who can beat you with Physic energy. What kind of crap is that? We've all seen the No touch knockouts, but what's the deal with this guy. I've read a lot of good things about Systema, so maybe I'm misinterpreting what I saw on the website but this just seems a bit hokey to me.

Also has anyone seen the Knife Fighting/Knife Throwing tape? More interested in the fighting aspect, I don't think I should throw my means of defense at my opponent.

ANYONE?

Vladimir is working on getting Michael out to Toronto May 14th-ish. You're more then welcome to come up and tell him that it's crap.

I think it's interesting that so many people are so inclined to jump up and claim that things are bogus without having any experiance, having never seen or having information of what they are disputing.

You're bound to get a better response if you work on your attitude.

Hey Yahoo, why don't you read the explanation before opening your mouth? :mad:
Throwing knives away... when did kenpo start to teach knife fighting?
My point is your blinders are oversized.

Ok first off sorry for spelling psychic wrong I just noticed that. Second, if you look at what I wrote I actually stated that I might be misinterpreting and that I've heard very good things about systema. I haven't seen the tape all I know is that "they" proclaim to teach you how to defeat someone using psychic energy. In my experience this is all bull$H!T. Most everyone has seen the no touch knockouts and the like, so what makes this different?

As for the knife throwing comment

More interested in the fighting aspect, I don't think I should throw my means of defense at my opponent.


The reason I wrote this is because I usually only carry ONE knife at a time and it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to THROW my only friggin weapon now does it (especially since it's a $300 knife)?!? I simply stated what my interests were, I didn't say that if you want to learn to throw knifes then you must be an idiot. I have a set of Hibben throwing knifes, but I don't ever carry them on me so what the heck is the point? Get it.

I'm not sure what you meant by when did kenpo guys start using knifes cause in the AKKI we've got a pretty solid knife curriculum.
Just as I'm sure the people in Mike Pick's group do as well, but hey maybe we're not the typical.

Geez, when did it become a crime to ask a question.

Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo
so maybe I'm misinterpreting what I saw on the website

You are.

Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo
Also has anyone seen the Knife Fighting/Knife Throwing tape? More interested in the fighting aspect, I don't think I should throw my means of defense at my opponent.

Some of us carry more than one knife.

Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo
Geez, when did it become a crime to ask a question.

Maybe it's how you asked it.

I usually only carry ONE knife at a time and it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to THROW my only friggin weapon now does it (especially since it's a $300 knife)?!?

The first thing one needs to do to start understanding Systema is to empty their cup and learn to see a wide variety of needs and solutions. One needs to work within the box outside the box, and maybe even as part of the box.

So why throw your only weapon... maybe the bad guy is running away from you and about to pick up an AK-47 that is 15 feet away. Personally... I'd risk breaking the $300 knife.

Arthur
PS You ever notice that anyone who's ever actually worked with vladimir or Mikhail never calls it crap or bull$hit? Coincidence?

You ever notice that anyone who's ever actually worked with vladimir or Mikhail never calls it crap or bull$hit? Coincidence?

*chuckle* Mebbe... :D

Is that you could tell Mikhail or Vlad that it's BS and they would pat you on the back, smile and say "ok, sure" and walk away. They really want you to get it, but if you don't then oh well your not meant to learn Systema anyways.


Klondike

:eek:

I am curious about the "psychic training" myself. I do not train in Systema. Please understand, though, that I am open minded to the "psychic training" idea for a couple of reasons.

1. I realize that during the cold war, while the U.S. war defense was spending $$ more on technoligy and weaponry, the USSR was spending money on research with the human body, along with their weapons program. They desired to make "super-soldiers," in a realistic sense. It is my understanding that the Russian Government did things that we could never get away with in the U.S.. Some of these are as follows:

- torture methods to test pain thresholds, and to train their special ops.
- experiments with Hormones (steroids, GH, Insulin, etc.) to get desired effects within the human body.
- Harsh training methods, such as dropping a spetznaz trainee in siberia with no equipment, then reporting him to the authorities as an escape convict and to "shot-to-kill." They pass the training test if they can live to make it to their checkpoint.

really the list is much larger then that. But, given the circumstances that the old Soviet Gov. spent a ton of money on human body/capability research, it wouldn't suprise me to find that some unconventional aspects of human capabilities were discovered.

2. It also has been theorized that physicists were sanctioned by the government to test other capabilities of the human body, such as energy manipulation, etc.

3. I understand that the words "psychic training" is just a linguistic thing, not ment to propigate "hocus pocus." I am confident that any validity in this "psychic training" will also have science and reason to back it up, even if it is unconventional.

So, I am open to the idea. Gou had explained to me once at a seminar how much of it is like decieving, or "tricking" the mind of your opponent (making him believe your closer then you are, for instance). But I have heard other explainations and of other capabilities, such as "pulling invisable strings in the body" and things such as this, which go beyond mental trickery, and cross over into the physical realm.

So far, the explainations that I have heard have been limited, as is my understanding of the subject matter. Could someone with more of a background please explain psychic training to me, so I can better understand what it intails. Perhaps include examples and such to illustrate the capabilites of such training.

Also, if Mikhail is coming to Toronto, please be sure to post it here. I would be interested in going to see him in action, and learn.

Thanks!
:asian:

Imagine walking through the forest. Talking with your friend beside you. Suddenly you look up to see a branch right in front of you. You instinctively move because you do not want to bash your melon on the branch. Your body moved without thought. You just did. Now imagine being able to make someone do that when you are fighting them. That might be a good example.

Sometimes I think psychic is a bad term but when you look much more carefully you see it may be the only term applicable.

As for Vlad and Mikhail, if you don't like it, then you dont have to work with them and they are not upset about it. They will thank you for coming out and then continue their work.

As for Vlad and Mikhail, if you don't like it, then you dont have to work with them and they are not upset about it. They will thank you for coming out and then continue their work.

And that is the really cool thing about them. I haven't met Mikhail yet but I did get to meet Vlad for the first time at the San Diego seminar last weekend and that was the impression I got from him. If you want to learn from him, great he'll help all he can, but if your closed minded, great thanks for coming and have nice day. Work with him once and you too will believe and understand about physic energy.


Klondike

:asian:

Imagine walking through the forest. Talking with your friend beside you. Suddenly you look up to see a branch right in front of you. You instinctively move because you do not want to bash your melon on the branch. Your body moved without thought. You just did. Now imagine being able to make someone do that when you are fighting them. That might be a good example.

That is a very good analogy, Gou, and is the same analogy I was refering to when I had said that we had discussed this before. Your playing with the other persons senses and perceptions. This would explain peoples accounts of training with Mikhail or Vladamir, and how they "thought" they were in one position, but upon looking at a later video, or through some other evidence, they found that they were completely wrong. Or, it seemed that Vlad was not in any position to strike them, but then all of a sudden, he was on top of him.
The tree analogy is a good way to explain accounts such as these.

I'm talking about other stuff, though. Pulling "invisable strings" in the body of your attacker where they are falling to the ground without you actually touching them physically. Stopping someones movement or strikes when it appears that you haven't done anything. Striking someone in a manner that doesn't seem like it would hurt, and causing immense pain; then breathing and laying your hands over the area and taking the pain away. Or, how about Vladimir guessing the color of something without being able to actually see it. Basically I am inquiring about the wierd stuff that seems unreal, and I am looking for some personal accounts, and some possible explainations. Someday, I would like to go and see Vlad or Mikhail for my self so I can have my own stories to tell, but for now, I have to milk it off you guys! :D

So seriously, I want to hear about these other aspects of the art, particularly aspects that most people would find to be B.S.. I'm not looking to criticize, I'm just looking to observe and learn.

:cool: :asian:

Vladimir has this weird habit of putting things in your head...beliefs if you will, without saying a word. You'll step...then your mind tells you that you can't put your foot down once commited, or he leads you to believe that he'll own the space that you're trying to take and *plop*...you're on the floor.

I've experianced similar ideas in other arts...but on a physical level. Someone's body movement gives you the impression of the above and you loose balance and/or fall. This is very different...I wish I could explain it better.

Though I haven't trained with Michael, Vladimir automatically seems to know what you need. Not only in training...but the outside world as well (it's all the same, isn't it?). He and I were talking about being relaxed can often pull the angry, tense aggressor into being relaxed as well....then he continued to bring up things happening in my personal life that fit into that mold. It was interesting...because I hadn't spoken about my personal life with him at all.

I experianced quite a bit this past weekend with Vladimir and everyone that was at the San Diego seminar. Some things...even though I felt or watched it happen...it's still difficult to digest, so I haven't really put much thought into them. I figure that I have a lot more things to concentrate on...and eventually it will make sense...or it won't.

Somewhat the opposite of what you brought up, Paul...my teacher was given a blow by Vladimir off to the side that would have made a tank envious. He got up and there was no pain at all. No pain during impact and no residual pain either. Just one of those things you just have to smile, nod and walk away from understanding that you don't get it. :D

So why throw your only weapon... maybe the bad guy is running away from you and about to pick up an AK-47 that is 15 feet away. Personally... I'd risk breaking the $300 knife.


Because this happens so often. Once again, I stated my situation......"I'm interested in the knife fighting aspect", if you want to learn to throw knifes then more power to you. I know how to throw a knife. I know all about the rotational characteristics of my knifes (Hibben Throwers), but I have no intention of betting my life on something once it leaves my hand.

There is a very real difference between obscure motion, playing on the emotions of your opponent, and using misdirection as opposed to using just your Thoughts to defeat an attacker.

Psychic power implies that you have zero physical contact, thus if an attacker takes a mighty swing at you and all you do is think about stopping it... well then you're gonna eat a fist, that's all there is to it. I'm willing to bet that every single person here has heard of and seen the videos of No touch knockouts where some moron points his finger and another guy gets woozy and falls. Or perhaps an instructor waves his hand back and forth and suddenly the entire class begins to sway back and forth. In the end it all proves to be a LOAD of you know what. I have no doubt that Mikhail can fight, I would be disappointed if he couldn't after all his years of service in the Russian Spetnaz.

If it is simply matter of misdirection and the like then cool, but that's sorta why I asked the question in the first place.

Let me restate this so you can understand...

Do not tell us what it is and isn't without having any knowledge of it. Pretty simple concept..

As can be seen the only way to try and help you understand is for you to go to a Vlad or Mikhail seminar and ask them yourself.

They will answer you and they won't be an ass about it either but be warned, you will fall down a lot and look pretty silly doing it.

This is why the saying, "Systema cannot be explained, only experienced".


:eek:


Klondike

Because this happens so often.
Yes, yes it does. In the place this art comes from, it does happen. Not that it matters whether it is common or not... likely or not. Hell the majority of all arts spend all their time training for something that isn't likely to happen.

What's important is you prepare your mind to understand that you can't control what will and what won't happen to you. the point of Systema is to learn your self well enough that you are comfortable in as many situations a possible while coming to terms with being okay that your not "comfortable".

People who become prejudice against a certain aspect of fighting frequently fall victim too it. Well my experience any way. I was hoping to try to help you understand Systema a little more, but if you aren't interested, thats okay too.

Once again, I stated my situation......"I'm interested in the knife fighting aspect",
So fast forward past the throwing section.

I know all about the rotational characteristics of my knifes (Hibben Throwers),
We don't use throwers in Systema. We learn to throw anything. Systema knife throwing is completely different than conventional knife throwing, and interestingly enough there is a great deal of material on how to throw a knife without standard rotation... but thats okay, you can fast forward past any of that.

There is a very real difference between obscure motion, playing on the emotions of your opponent, and using misdirection as opposed to using just your Thoughts to defeat an attacker.
Yup there sure is. I don't know of any arts that can use their own thoughts to stop an attacker. I'd think that would be impossible.

Of course its not so difficult to use an attackers thoughts to defeat him;) Happens all the time. There is a great scene at the end of "Red Dragon" where Edward Norton does this nicely. I remember thinking "wow what great Systema".

willing to bet that every single person here has heard of and seen the videos of No touch knockouts where some moron points his finger and another guy gets woozy and falls.
Yup, but I don't know what that has to do with Systema. Why don't you at least get the tape on what we do (Beyond The Physical), so you can at least ask about what we actually do.

Asking about stuff we don't actually do, isn't going to get very good answers out of us.

Arthur

No offence to you Yahoo, but people are strange. I find comparisons and examples help me learn, so let me give you one that isn't related to martial arts, but is related to this thread.

I own a Bowflex. I have found numerous trashings of it on body building forums, but never from someone who has tried it. Every post I read from someone who has tried it agrees: the resistance is real with plenty to spare, the motion is smooth and very much like lifting a free weight, you get the 'negative' on the way down, the resistance is constant throughout the entire range of motion and it is safe. Not surprisingly, considering the above, one can gain both size and strength from this device.

You'd be astounded, though, how many people knock it and say it won't work. Basically because it doesn't provide all the aforementioned things. Yet it does. When pressed, these same people admit they've never tried it. I've had friends try 2 exercises on it and say, "yeah, I can see how that would work." Not only have these people not tried it with intensity for a sustained period of time, they haven't even demo'ed it. Some of them state how unsafe it is based off a 30 second commercial and then proceed to dispense their 'expert' counsel to those inquiring about it.

Or explain how it functions and get it all wrong. They like free weights and to them that is all that works. I always state, "use what works for you, I'm not selling it, stick to the free weights if that's what you prefer." Still they argue.

What I'm saying is, if you haven't even tried it, please don't get on here and 'explain' it for us all. I've watched 3 of the tapes repeatedly (not the Psychic Energy) and have practiced for months. I've read literally hundreds of posts on systema, dozens on the psychic work itself. I've posted about various topics dozens of times. But you won't find a single post from me ever trying to explain the psychic work. Why would I? I have no frame of reference, have never done it, never seen the tape and never had it demonstrated to me. Thus, I choose to reserve my judgement. I'm sure you would not appreciate me commenting about the 'ins and outs' of Kenpo.

I have, however, taken the time to go to the source and found explanations from senior members that say 'psychological' may be a better term than 'psychic.' Also, the demos on tapes have been explained as well. There are no 'no-touch' knockouts. What you might be seeing is a type of slow-sparring drill designed to build awareness, sensitivity, movement and form.

Go to a seminar with Arthur or Vlad or Mikhail or Sergei or Sonny or one of the other top instructors. Beat the crap out of them. Then come on here and tell the world. Better yet, get it on film; though I'm sure word would spread rapidly anyways. It's what I would do if I found them to be frauds. Strangely, despite all the seminars they've hosted, this has never happened. I wonder why? Could it be because it works?

good analogy, hopefully he'll listen.

I came here just to get a better explaination as to what the psychic training all entails. I plan to go to a systema seminar sometime in my life to find out for myself, but until I can do that I have to rely on explainations on internet forums. So, any explaination or shared experience from a systema player would be appreciated!

THX

:cool:

Stopping someones movement or strikes when it appears that you haven't done anything.

Appearances are deceiving. I've never seen VV or MR stand absolutely still and stop a strike.

Striking someone in a manner that doesn't seem like it would hurt, and causing immense pain; then breathing and laying your hands over the area and taking the pain away.

Appearances are deceiving. I've had it done to me, I can only guess that the anticipation of more pain with contact, followed by contact without pain, causes either an endorphin flood or unlocking of muscles, maybe both.

Or, how about Vladimir guessing the color of something without being able to actually see it.

Don't know how he does that, but different colours reflect heat differently, and his training included being able to detect subliminal-level sensations...

"Pulling strings" - present your aggressive opponent with a target. shift the target as he tries to attack it. If you move it just far enough to avoid contact, often the attacker will not perceive the movement, and offbalance himself in anticipation of contact.

Would you like the secret of "pushing the buttons", too? ;)

bottom line, both VV and MR insist this is no magical thing, but rooted in instinctive behaviour.

They take it to strange places, but the effects are real, the causes mundane. They even say so, on tape even. What more do you want?

here's my explanation of some of this stuff.

http://groups.msn.com/RMAHamilton/softwork.msnw

As for why the soviet and russian army insisting on knife and shovel throwing skills for their spetsnaz troops - apparently throwing can result in deeper penetration - if done right, therefor, a faster silent kill.

In systema, you never rely on any one thing.

Thank yo very much! That was a very good explaination of psychic energy in systema!

So, what's the secret of pushing buttons? (LOL) :D

:cool:

So, what's the secret of pushing buttons? (LOL)

Use 'the finger' :asian:

I thought that was a pretty good explanation jellyman, especially the "pulling strings" part. That's about what it feels like when Vlad makes you do something you didn't plan on when attacking him.


:asian:

Klondike

Originally posted by PAUL
Your playing with the other persons senses and perceptions.

One day a new guy came to class. He was pretty big and claimed to have been a shootfighter in Japan. Vlad paired him up with me and the guy looked fairly disappointed. We started a excercise where we just evade. No counter, no attack, just evade.

Everytime the guy reached back his arm to punch I moved. Not far, but far enough so that he knew that no matter how he threw that punch it would not and never would connect. So he would stop and not throw the punch. He would move and try to position himself again so that he could throw a punch that would connect. After a while I found I could MAKE him lose his commitment to his punch/action by moving myself slightly.

So there you have little ole me, arms crossed and moving slightly and forcing this guy to stop his punch. I was making him stop his punch but really I was just using his own mind to stop him from throwing it. All the time I was just staring at him. He knew he couldn't get me and was feeling frustrated and actually out and out asked me how I was controlling him.

Vlad came over and helped him a bit and you could see the lightbulb go off in his head. He suddenly understood what I had been doing to him. I had controlled this guy without touching him. Was it psychic? I don't know. Was it working? Yes.

Systema starts from far earlier than most arts in the conflict and ends far later. Which is one of the reasons why I see it as a more complete art than many.

Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo
but that's sorta why I asked the question in the first place.

But not under your own name though eh?
:D

But not under your own name though eh?


That was a EXCELLENT :shrug: attempt at trying to make me feel bad :( . GOU RONIN. You should have been a psychologist. ;)

Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo
That was a EXCELLENT attempt at trying to make me feel bad. GOU RONIN. You should have been a psychologist.

I should have been something eh?

Psychologists work from a wellness model and seek to change behavior through therapy and work initially.

Psychiatrists work from an illness model and start with medication.

I'll have to think about it for a bit but I'm going to take this as a compliment.

Thank you.

I also hope you found the answers you are looking for.

Alas, I got in Saturday the 8th but had to work Sunday the 9th and couldn't make the seminar!

While it would be nice if everybody used there real names on web boards, I must admit there are some legitimate reasons not to. I know on our RMA board there are professionals who have to keep their identity secret. I also encourage the underage people to use pseudonyms for safety sake. And unfortunately the martial art world can be fairly petty... requireing those in search of more information and new ways to hide their identity, less they be kicked out of their present organization.

Probably a shocking post coming from me... but heck I got a good endorphin buzz from class:-)

Arthur

I know that for my job I have regulations regarding my identity.

I can tell you what I do(Financial Consultant), but only broadly. I can't tell you my company name however, or provide any advise online.

I use my real name, though.

It's just one of those deals.... :cool:

Alas, I got in Saturday the 8th but had to work Sunday the 9th and couldn't make the seminar!

Too bad arnisador, it was my first Vladimir seminar but the people I went with have been to plenty and said it was one of the best they had been to.



:asian:


Klondike

Originally posted by Arthur
While it would be nice if everybody used there real names on web boards

I refer to using a second account on this board to ask question someone might not normally ask with their primary account.
:rolleyes:

Originally posted by GouRonin
I refer to using a second account on this board to ask question someone might not normally ask with their primary account.


Having multiple accounts is against MartialTalk policies but of course is not always easy to detect.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-

I refer to using a second account on this board to ask question someone might not normally ask with their primary account.

Ahh! So your talking about people trying to misrepresent the truth a little perhaps. Damn shame when that happens.

Arthur

I refer to using a second account on this board to ask question someone might not normally ask with their primary account


huh..... Oh you think I have 2 accounts. Sorry, you've got the wrong guy then. Maybe you should refocus your psychic energy and keep looking. :shrug:

How old ru ky? You seem a trifle... bellicose :argue:

Please, keep the discussion polite and respectful.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-

Please refrain from acting so smug about something you have no clue about and have no desire to learn about. Some people get it and some don't, your in the latter catagory. There's nothing wrong with that either, you just keep on training in what makes you happy and we'll train in what makes us happy, enough said.

:asian:


Klondike

KenpoYahoo,

Email Kenny Gonzalez at progressive combat concepts and talk to him. Kenny is, I think, a 5th Black in AKKI Kenpo. He went to 1 seminar with Vladimir and is now having Vladimir teach at his school next weekend. Ron Boswell of the AKKI will be there also so you can get opinions from people with your same background. (by the way I have done Kenpo for 18 years and seen what all the top guys do so I have a basis for comparison)
Good luck!

Mikhail Ryabko will be coming to teach an intensive complete seminar in Mid-May around May 17, 18, 19, 20. I just saw the posters today. I can't wait!!!

Holy cr@p! I better book those days off ASAP!

There's a bunch of us here in Colorado that are planning on attending. Already have the time off, now to just get finances for the trip. Would be cool to workout with Mikhail and all of Vlad's students (even Gou :) ).


:confused:


Klondike

Count me in!

Originally posted by Klondike93
There's a bunch of us here in Colorado that are planning on attending. Already have the time off, now to just get finances for the trip. Would be cool to workout with Mikhail and all of Vlad's students (even Gou :) ).Klondike

I'm even going to be sober for this if I go! Woo!
:iws:

Originally posted by GouRonin
I'm even going to be sober for this if I go! Woo!
:iws:

Sure gou....we've all heard that before!:p

Man, If I can go I definatily will. I have the WMAA camp to attend that month already, so I don't know yet. But I really hope I can........:cool:

i'm hoping to attend myself, cash and work permitting!

Me too!:)

Originally posted by PAUL
Sure gou....we've all heard that before!:p

I've been sober 2 whole days now!
:cuss: