For all the women

[yumiko14]

In class, I've recently began noticing that we're working on out arms a lot. We tend to do 200 push ups (twice a week) on average (in sets, of course), and also a lot of other upper body workouts. Being the only female in the class at the moment, I'm not going to say anything, nor would I even if there were more females, but I'm realizing more and more every day that I'll have to choose: karate and very muscular arms, or less karate and not so muscular arms.
Now please, don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to complain or anything. I'm honestly leaning toward the karate and muscular arms, but friends and family think that it will effect me negatively in more than one way. One person said It would probably hinder my ability to do karate in the future, especially if i don't balance the workout out. I should probably mention that I go to four classes a week, and one sensei teaches two of the classes, and another teaches the other two. I'm finding that my second sensei tends to do a lot of upper body work. I really would like to continue going to all four classes, but I'm still debating. If I were to cut down, I'd probably only go to two or three classes per week, which for someone like me, will probably be very hard. Any thoughts?

[Kacey]

If you like it, go for it! When I started TKD, my friends - and especially my family - thought I was nuts, for a wide variety of reasons. That was 21 years ago, and I'm still going strong! You have to make your choice based on what's right for you, not them - and what's wrong with muscular arms, anyway?

[exile]

Yumiko, there's something else you have to consider: women, as they increase muscle mass naturally (i.e., no anabolic steroids, growth hormones or the like, just plenty of muscle overload using resistance training) do not bulk up the way men do (and it's hard enough for men to do that naturally without doing a lot more than pushups, believe me!) The reasons are partly hormonal in nature and partly neurolomuscular: women have fewer fast-twitch muscle units per body weight in their upper bodies than men do. The combination of factors means that a woman who's working out using even heavy free weights is just not going to wind up with enormous biceps (as I say, a naturally-training male won't either unless he has the right genertics, though his muscle gains will be a good deal more evident as sheer mass). A woman whose body composition is more muscular than another woman's, with both at the same body weight, will appear leaner and lither than the other woman, since muscle tissue is denser than body fat; she'll look fitter and more compact, trimmer, but there's no way that she'll have a smaller version of a male bodybuilder's body.

What I'd be more concerned about is not doing too much in one session. Much better to do 50 pushups (or reps of any kind) three times a week, at least to start with, than 150 reps on one day and nothing for the following six. And for increasing muscularity, it makes more sense to do fewer reps with heavier weights than volume training. But if your main concern is not bulking up, don't worry. It won't happen. It's very hard to do even using free weights, even for most men. There's virtually no chance it will happen to a woman using just her own body weight (as with pushups) for resistance. And as I say, to the extent you gain muscle mass and lose body fat, you'll look leaner and more athletic, not bulkier.

[shesulsa]

My daughter has been doing martial arts since she was four and doing regular (not girl) push-ups virtually the whole time. We each have strong upper bodies. Her shoulders and arms make her look like a swimmer or a gymnast.

Your family and friends need to get over the stereotype that you're going to damage your body in some way by strengthening your upper body or that you're going to be out-of-balance. You'll only get out-of-balance if you never work your legs or don't work them enough. You'll know if that's happening if your arms never tire in class but your legs are shaking with significantly less usage.

Just to let you know, as your upper body develops muscle you could put on anywhere between 5-25 pounds of muscle mass just from the waist up. When I eventually fit back into my size 5 jeans someday, I'll likely weigh no less than 140 - where in high school as a twig I weighed 110. My daughter is 5' 3" and weighs 125 on average - size 2 jeans. Everyone thinks she weighs less than 100.

You really only need to worry about it if you have no stamina, your legs feel weak before your arms do after a very short period of time and with little effort and if you have pain upon exertion.

Talk to your doctor at your next checkup about what you're doing and ask what s/he thinks and ask him/her to reassure your parents.

[MA-Caver]

Yumiko, there's something else you have to consider: women, as they increase muscle mass naturally (i.e., no anabolic steroids, growth hormones or the like, just plenty of muscle overload using resistance training) do not bulk up the way men do (and it's hard enough for men to do that naturally without doing a lot more than pushups, believe me!) The reasons are partly hormonal in nature and partly neurolomuscular: women have fewer fast-twitch muscle units per body weight in their upper bodies than men do. The combination of factors means that a woman who's working out using even heavy free weights is just not going to wind up with enormous biceps (as I say, a naturally-training male won't either unless he has the right genertics, though his muscle gains will be a good deal more evident as sheer mass). A woman whose body composition is more muscular than another woman's, with both at the same body weight, will appear leaner and lither than the other woman, since muscle tissue is denser than body fat; she'll look fitter and more compact, trimmer, but there's no way that she'll have a smaller version of a male bodybuilder's body.

What I'd be more concerned about is not doing too much in one session. Much better to do 50 pushups (or reps of any kind) three times a week, at least to start with, than 150 reps on one day and nothing for the following six. And for increasing muscularity, it makes more sense to do fewer reps with heavier weights than volume training. But if your main concern is not bulking up, don't worry. It won't happen. It's very hard to do even using free weights, even for most men. There's virtually no chance it will happen to a woman using just her own body weight (as with pushups) for resistance. And as I say, to the extent you gain muscle mass and lose body fat, you'll look leaner and more athletic, not bulkier.

Umm, I'd have to disagree with the idea that women can't bulk up the way men do... They can but as I understand it it wrecks havoc with their natural body chemistry/hormones/etc. There are professional body builders out there who do bulk up to massive musculatures and such, I used to date one for a while.
There are methods of push-ups which are good for women and it will work on their back, shoulders and pecs, which IMO need to be built up to an extent so to better counterbalance the weight of a male attacker, while on the ground, floor, bed, back seat of a car, etc. Same with legs and lower back strengthening.
It's resistance that build muscles, the tearing of the muscle fibers and allowing them time to grow back together stronger.
yumiko I suggest a good yard-stick to measure if you're strong enough is to have your significant other or a trusted male student be on top of you (in a non sexual way :rolleyes: ) and see if you can push them straight up all the way off of you. This IMO is how strong you need to be. Using the right leverage helps of course but in the end having the strength to apply that leverage adds to that.

[shesulsa]

I neglected to mention: As a generality, when it comes to upper body strength, guys have it over girls hands down. Strong, muscular arms, shoulders and upper body are not a bad thing when you have to defend yourself, and you can still dress quite flatteringly.

[exile]

Umm, I'd have to disagree with the idea that women can't bulk up the way men do... They can but as I understand it it wrecks havoc with their natural body chemistry/hormones/etc. There are professional body builders out there who do bulk up to massive musculatures and such, I used to date one for a while.

Note the crucial caveat in my post, MA-C: I'm specifically referring to women training naturally. If you check out professional body builders, male or female, and find one who isn't taking some kind of anabolic substance, you've hit the equivalent of the winning Irish Sweepstakes ticket.

[MA-Caver]

Originally Posted by MA-Caver
Umm, I'd have to disagree with the idea that women can't bulk up the way men do... They can but as I understand it it wrecks havoc with their natural body chemistry/hormones/etc. There are professional body builders out there who do bulk up to massive musculatures and such, I used to date one for a while.
Note the crucial caveat in my post, MA-C: I'm specifically referring to women training naturally. If you check out professional body builders, male or female, and find one who isn't taking some kind of anabolic substance, you've hit the equivalent of the winning Irish Sweepstakes ticket.
Yeah, the gal I dated for a while. :uhyeah: :wink2:

[exile]

Yeah, the gal I dated for a while. :uhyeah: :wink2:

But of course! :wink1:

As Mike Mentzer once admitted, he finally wound up going the steroid route after losing too many shows to second-rate guys with first-rate steroid cycles... and the Mentzer brothers were considered genetic anomalies, in terms of their intrinsic muscle-building capacity. But if you want to swim with the sharks, ....

[shesulsa]

This really depends on the individual, guys, you know that. There are thin, wire-y guys who are QUITE strong and meatier guys who aren't as strong. Same goes with women.

Over the years, your muscles become more compact anyway so that initial swelling from getting into shape will reduce over time leaving some definition of strong, healthy muscle.

[exile]

This really depends on the individual, guys, you know that. There are thin, wire-y guys who are QUITE strong and meatier guys who aren't as strong. Same goes with women.

Right, but I'm not talking about strength per se, just muscle mass and its presentation. Strength is complex, but muscle mass has a lot to do with it. Bodybuilders are massive, and they're strong (though if a builder is on steroids, and goes off, s/he'll drop down in size and strength accordingly). The thing is, there's a strong correlation between skeletal structure, capacity for muscle growth, and bulk appearance. I have fairly small wristbones, a fairly reliable indicator that I could work out for a century and never develop 19" or 20" arms. But I also have relatively long forearms and a correspondingly short elbow-to-shoulder distance; that translates into a much smaller flexed-bicep number than a guy with the same length arm who has a shorter forearm and a longer upper arm. When we bend our elbows for the classic bicep pose, he's got a much larger length of muscle bunching up than I do, and the tape will show an inch or two more circumference, depending. He also has leverage advantages over me in doing a full-range bench press (that's a big reason I have to use a high-intensity/short rep lifting routine).

So sure, individual gains and the way those gains show are both subject to major individual variation. The main thing for the OPer, though, is that it's very, very uncommon for women to develop a 'bulky' look without chemical enhancement. The main thing she should be concerned about is not hurting herself by doing too much at one time.

[yumiko14]

Thanks everyone! That definitely made me feel a lot better. We've never used weights in class, the only thing we do use sometimes is these long plastic bands-probably about four feet, and we grab those with both hands, put it behind our back, and do punches. Sorry, I'm not quite sure what they're called. Other than that, though, it's basically all push ups or the like.
Just to clarify, I do 50 push ups twice a week (Monday and Wednesday), and about 200 also twice a week (Tuesday and Saturday) I'm almost never sore, and if I am, it's very mild.
Again, thank you all. You made me feel a lot better. I'm going to see my doctor in about a month, so maybe I'll mention it to her. Thanks!

[tellner]

Thirty years ago practicing martial arts would close up a woman's cervix so she couldn't have babies. Now it will somehow "damage" her so that she can't do karate.

It's all a crock designed to keep the girls out of the all boys club by telling them that they can't be boys and won't be girls any longer.

A man will almost always have more upper body strength than a woman. There's overlap for sure, but the adolescent testosterone and the design of the male upper body are just a little bit different in ways that add up significantly.

So what? Entire agricultural economies rest on the lifting power of little old women in black dresses. If you can't be as strong as the strongest guy, join the club. Almost none of the guys will either. The point is to make the most of your own potential and cheat to even the odds when you have to put your weaknesses up against others' strengths.

Someone else already said it better than I ever could...




Ain't I A Woman?
by Sojourner Truth
Delivered 1851 at the Women's Convention in Akron, Ohio
Well, children, where there is so much racket there must be something out of kilter. I think that 'twixt the negroes of the South and the women at the North, all talking about rights, the white men will be in a fix pretty soon. But what's all this here talking about?

That man over there says that women need to be helped into carriages, and lifted over ditches, and to have the best place everywhere. Nobody ever helps me into carriages, or over mud-puddles, or gives me any best place! And ain't I a woman? Look at me! Look at my arm! I have ploughed and planted, and gathered into barns, and no man could head me! And ain't I a woman? I could work as much and eat as much as a man - when I could get it - and bear the lash as well! And ain't I a woman? I have borne thirteen children, and seen most all sold off to slavery, and when I cried out with my mother's grief, none but Jesus heard me! And ain't I a woman?

Then they talk about this thing in the head; what's this they call it? [member of audience whispers, "intellect"] That's it, honey. What's that got to do with women's rights or negroes' rights? If my cup won't hold but a pint, and yours holds a quart, wouldn't you be mean not to let me have my little half measure full?

Then that little man in black there, he says women can't have as much rights as men, 'cause Christ wasn't a woman! Where did your Christ come from? Where did your Christ come from? From God and a woman! Man had nothing to do with Him.

If the first woman God ever made was strong enough to turn the world upside down all alone, these women together ought to be able to turn it back , and get it right side up again! And now they is asking to do it, the men better let them.
Obliged to you for hearing me, and now old Sojourner ain't got nothing more to say.

[shesulsa]

Why isn't that woman's face on a coin?

[tellner]

Why isn't that woman's face on a coin?

She was desperately hated by the South.
The male-led abolitionist groups didn't like her very much.
A lot of White women were uncomfortable with her color.
Later she was villified as a Socialist.
She wasn't refined enough for the upper classes.

In short, she was an uppity Negress just didn't know her place.

Outside of William Jennings Bryan's Cross of Gold (http://historymatters.gmu.edu/d/5354/)speech it may be the best piece of American political oratory of the 19th century. And unlike WJB's issues hers are timeless.

Kids in school should be required to memorize "And Ain't I a Woman".

[tellner]

(writing on behalf of my wife again)

Two hundred pushups a week is a lot. I'd be a little concerned about damage to the wrists and elbows if you are not at your full growth and have unfused growth plates in your arms.

Women don't generally put on a lot of bulky muscles, so you won't have bulging biceps. Since your lower body is naturally stronger than your upper I wouldn't worry about balancing the workout. If you're really worried you can always take up some other lower body workout.

And your family and friends are just being ******. Don't listen to them. If they tell you that being punched in the chest will give you breast cancer tell them they're talking nonsense.

[Hawke]

Try looking up some fitness sites and ask the people in the forum about balancing your workout. Doing all those push ups may give you forward/rounded shoulders. Your bones tend to move toward the stronger muscle.

Look at your self in the mirror from the side and see which direction your shoulders are going.

Google:
Upper Cross Syndrome
Muscle Imbalance

So you can get better info than I can give you.

[Tez3]

Can I hijack a little please? I've been down to my local gym where I signed up to membership, I desperately need to lose weight and get fit. They've put me on a programme of weight training and cardio to do just that but my question is. . . how soon before I start seeing results? I really need to see some to keep me going! Perhaps I'm not doing enough and need to do more! It's been 3 weeks and I know that doesn't sound long but surely something should be even a tiny bit smaller by now!

[exile]

Can I hijack a little please? I've been down to my local gym where I signed up to membership, I desperately need to lose weight and get fit. They've put me on a programme of weight training and cardio to do just that but my question is. . . how soon before I start seeing results? I really need to see some to keep me going! Perhaps I'm not doing enough and need to do more! It's been 3 weeks and I know that doesn't sound long but surely something should be even a tiny bit smaller by now!

My impression is that three weeks is a lower limit, Tez. Sometime between three and six weeks is kind of the accepted window for results to become visible. But sometimes the process takes longer to get started than others—some people take a while to get going.

It would help to get some idea of just what your program is. Basically, you should have a calorie deficit of 500 a day to lose, safely, a lb. a week. In three weeks, you'll have lost 3 lbs, but that won't necessarily be visible. At six weeks, it should be just a bit visible—again, depending on a lot of different things. At three months, though, it is pretty much guaranteed to be visible. A good mix is a reduction of 250 calories in your daily intake and an additional 250 calories in your daily output. Neither is very painful, or requires a massive commitment and Spartan discipline, and in three months you've knocked off 12 lbs. If you keep it up over the course of a year, that's just under 50 lbs...

... but just be patient. It really does take longer to get going for some people than others. The body hates giving up calories stored as fat. It'll fight like hell on that. But you'll win in the end—just don't give in to frustration...

[Sukerkin]

Bob beat me to it, Irene :D. All that he said was right on the money. It is most especially true that everyone varies greatly in their body's reaction to excercise. Some want to hold on to fat and others are eager to burn it off.

I belong to the latter camp (or used to at any rate) because I have a high percentage of 'brown' fat cells, which turn on like little electric fires to burn calories. It's why in my current big-tummy state I'm always hot - my body is radiating energy like mad (just not enough to get rid of the mass of calories my missus is feeding me).

So I'm hopeful that when I start my gentle re-intoduction to excercise I'll see some results.

If a person has the physiology that wants to hold onto to it's emergency energy store, then things will take longer but the benefits to fitness and muscularity will still be the same.

[still learning]

Hello, Go for it! A heathy and strong body is "always" better!

Not many women can do 25 push-ups let alone 200....Beside martial arts

Women all over the world who are (athlete's) have strong and powerful bodies.

Never beshame of your bodies (women) if it has muscles showing....it looks better than (FAT) for sure...

Today women who are Athletes? ....are admire by many women too!

Aloha

[slide-easy]

Go for it, it sure beats having bingo-wings!

[LilDaemon]

In response to the person who was talking about the shoulder rounding, yes, that happens with an imbalance (i.e. too many curls, not enough tricep action) when working out. However, the great part about pushups is that it works both the chest and back area, as well as bicep and tricep area. It's designed to work with both sides of the action area so that the workout is balanced.

If someone's shoulders are rounding or forward, I would honestly look at the ratio of chest muscles to back muscle workouts to see if the chest is being over worked.