Future of Kenpo

[Kenpo Yahoo]

In twenty years most of the kenpo "seniors" will be out of the loop, so to speak (a nice way of saying GONE). Where do you see kenpo in 20 years? How about 10 years? Will people still be doing the techniques that Ed Parker Sr. outlined? Will kenpo still be around or will it have degenerated to the same level as MOST (not all) TKD associations (a generalization I am borrowing from an ex-kenpoist turned Systema, but I'm not gonna name any names).

What about all these associations? Do you think they will fracture as did the IKKA way back in the day? (that's somewhat of a rhetorical question) What happens to kenpo then? In what direction will the up and comers of today move OUR art? For some of you seniors out there, what would you like to see from us young'ins? What do you NOT want to see happen?

[Jill666]

While I suspect yahoo may be thinking too hard, :uhohh: I am very interested in the responses from different areas.

I've seen a huge interest in Kyosho, but I don't know if that is just this region or even just my circle.

I've studied under Nick Cerio, who wasn't with APAK or United Studios etc; now he's gone and there's been a split in HIS school :rolleyes: So even one generation later I find it hard to speculate.

Now I'll shut up for the more learned & experienced:asian:

[Zoran]

Related threads
Where do you see kenpo in 15 years (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2527&highlight=future+of+kenpo)
Kenpo in the Future (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1116&highlight=future+of+kenpo)

[Kenpo Yahoo]

While I suspect yahoo may be thinking too hard, I am very interested in the responses from different areas.


I'm actually just trying to see what everyone thinks

Since I'm not sure how to check the date on those threads I'll assume that people may have differing opinions by now. What direction would you like to see kenpo move? Are there aspects that aren't being emphasized as heavily now as they once were? If so how will that translate into future generations?

[jfarnsworth]

I think you need to align yourself in an organization with the same beliefs you have. Train, study, and learn as much as you can under the guidance of a kenpo senior. If you find the right instructor that suits you then you won't have these questions about where kenpo is going or has been. Focus on keeping kenpo alive through your instructor then you will have a strong foundation and skills in which there will be no questions.

[Kalicombat]

In my opinion, the kenpo seniors will keep on keepin on. They all have their top students, and have instilled in them the same quality and tradition SGM Parker passed on to the seniors themselves. There will always be bickering and one-up-manship in Kenpo, as in life, but EPAK will always have its following.
Also, there will be off-shoots and those that take what they have and add to it, delete from it, etc.... The technology that is available to us today, ie; the internet, cd-roms, web-meetings, etc, will only compound over the next two decades, making kenpo even more accessable to all those that choose to partake.

LONG LIVE KENPO,
Gary C.

[RCastillo]

Originally posted by jfarnsworth
I think you need to align yourself in an organization with the same beliefs you have. Train, study, and learn as much as you can under the guidance of a kenpo senior. If you find the right instructor that suits you then you won't have these questions about where kenpo is going or has been. Focus on keeping kenpo alive through your instructor then you will have a strong foundation and skills in which there will be no questions.

Gee, thanks Mr. Farnsworth, that sounds like me all the way!:)

[jfarnsworth]

Originally posted by RCastillo
Gee, thanks Mr. Farnsworth, that sounds like me all the way!:)

Are you trying to agree with me for the 3rd time??????????:erg: :samurai:

[RCastillo]

Originally posted by jfarnsworth
Are you trying to agree with me for the 3rd time??????????:erg: :samurai:

Well, ...........I thought you were recognizing greatness, namely ME!:cool:

[bahenlaura]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo
[B]In twenty years most of the kenpo "seniors" will be out of the loop, so to speak (a nice way of saying GONE). Where do you see kenpo in 20 years?

Well,
I believe Kenpo will go on, weak or strong it will go on. Now the strenght will entirely depend on the student and the teacher. How well Mr. Parkers material were prserved and tought and how well the teaching was received by the student. After all Kenpo is going on after Mr Parker's passing. Some Good and some Not so Good but never the less it is going on.
That is my take.
Burt E.
:rolleyes:

[Kenpo Yahoo]

If you find the right instructor that suits you then you won't have these questions about where kenpo is going or has been. Focus on keeping kenpo alive through your instructor then you will have a strong foundation and skills in which there will be no questions.


I am aligned with an excellent organization, at least in my opinion, and I am very happy with my current instructor. My questions are simply inquiries about the feelings and opinions of my fellow kenpo practitioners

[Seig]

What I do not see beinbg mentioned here is the relationships of the people with in the organizations and the reltaionships of people in one organization in relation to another. Those relationships and those alone will dictate where we are in 20 years.

[Zoran]

All that I hope is Kenpo (from the Parker line), stays as a system concerned with logical self defense. And those who wish to traditionalize the system stay in the minority.

[brianhunter]

Originally posted by Zoran
All that I hope is Kenpo (from the Parker line), stays as a system concerned with logical self defense. And those who wish to traditionalize the system stay in the minority.

What do we consider "traditionalized"? When does something become tradition? Thats where the problem is I think, not everyones definition of it is the same. So what do you guys think? What is the test or standard for something to become tradition?

[Kirk]

Originally posted by brianhunter
What do we consider "traditionalized"? When does something become tradition? Thats where the problem is I think, not everyones definition of it is the same. So what do you guys think? What is the test or standard for something to become tradition?

Something I'd like to know myself.

[Zoran]

Originally posted by brianhunter
What do we consider "traditionalized"? When does something become tradition? Thats where the problem is I think, not everyones definition of it is the same. So what do you guys think? What is the test or standard for something to become tradition?

Marion Webster definition of Tradition.
an inherited, established, or customary pattern of thought, action, or behavior (as a religious practice or a social custom)

Traditionalized would be to make traditional.

Basically what that means to me is to stick to a certain pattern of thinking and doing things. Never going "outside the box" when it comes to looking at the system as a whole. Sometimes we get wrapped up in the rules, forms, and techniques, we loose the big picture.

Just my opinion. :asian:

[Brother John]

EXCELLENT THREAD!!!

Traditionalizing Kenpo, to me, can mean more than one thing.

To some I think it means that the techniques are never done in ways that Mr. Parker didn’t do them or teach them. Those who are claimed as traditionalists could then say “Mr. Parker seldom did things the same way twice, but the base, the point of reference remains the same.” I think they are right for the most part, BUT: Mr. Parker didn’t just change/alter the execution of techniques… but also altered the set curriculum as well, always trying to refine it and sophisticate it further and further in a continual process of renewal. Unfortunately his promulgation of Kenpo schools outgrew his ability to get the “new” out there. Change came slowly, sometimes at the pace that he could travel to get it out, sometimes at the pace that people would accept. His changes rocked the boat quite often, but people accepted it because…hey, He’s Mr. Parker and I’m not. Some traditionalists (those whom I would say are traditionalizing Kenpo) appear to think that no-one can improve on the system that Mr. Parker set forward except Mr. Parker. Therefore they’ve kept the foundational landmarks and features of the system unchanged for the past 13 years or more. I respect that, I really do! The system that Mr. Parker taught and got out to the masses is AWESOME!!! No doubt about it; but it’s not what I want from Kenpo. I don’t want the Kenpo of 1990, I want the Kenpo of February 2003. That’s why I belong to a group whose leadership continues the process of renewal and innovation/creation; the precedent that Mr. Parker set.

So, what is “the traditionalization of Kenpo”? It’s the hesitancy to change/refine or create/innovate onto the base curriculum of American Kenpo Karate.

Is ‘traditionalized’ Kenpo good. NO. It’s great! But it’s standing still, not moving forward. It can be practiced with great heart, creativity and freedom, it’s founder father saw to that! But this heart, creativity and freedom is up to the individual alone… as the system is bound in tradition.

I hope I’ve not ruffled feathers. If I have, lets talk…
Not bicker.
Thanks…
Your Brother
John

[Kenpo Yahoo]

What do we consider "traditionalized"? When does something become tradition?


When you do something simply for the sake of doing it, or because that is the way that it has always been done. Tradition isn't neccessarily a bad thing, yet we don't want to become so set in our thinking that we don't give new ideas any credence simply because that isn't what WE were taught in the beginning.



What I do not see being mentioned here is the relationships of the people with in the organizations and the reltaionships of people in one organization in relation to another.


I agree, that relationships will play a big role in the future of OUR art, but those tend to be a bit personal and somewhat hard to gauge.

As for inter-organizational relationships, that tends to be a bit sketchy. The reason I say this is because most of the inter-organizational relationships are based on friendships between Seniors. Most of those guys and gals were buds back in the IKKA. They are able to remain friends or cordial acquaintances based on a level of mutual respect either because of ability or past history together.

So what you have now is a group of second generation American Kenpo students (Ed Parker's IKKA would be first) who are either attached to a school or organization that STEMMED from EPAK but have, as other's mentioned, either added their own material or focused on specific aspects of the curriculum. Very few have any interorganizational bond so when this second generation has come to an end the third generation (that's us by the way) takes over what do you think we can expect in regards to interorganizational cooperation or acknowledgement. As sad as it sounds I believe the bickering and mud throwing will reach an all time high.

[Kenpo Yahoo]

Do you think that certain negative aspects could be avoided if new leadership were to be announced and promoted (not in rank but in the marketing sense)? There are obviously both positive and negative consequences of such an action.




That’s why I belong to a group whose leadership continues the process of renewal and innovation/creation; the precedent that Mr. Parker set.


I wholeheartedly agree. I hope you get to make it to the March camp.

[Brother John]

No money
No time

see you next fall though...
:wah:

MAN I wish I could go in March!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Gonna miss out on some good new stuff (AGAIN) I hear.

ENJOY my Brother.
Please PLEASE let me know all about it, PLEASE.

Your Brother (And this little piggie stayed home...)
John

[Brother John]

I really thought more people would comment on this thread than this...
Oh well.
Maybe in the future.
Your Brother
John
:rolleyes:

[Zoran]

Originally posted by Brother John
I really thought more people would comment on this thread than this...
Oh well.
Maybe in the future.
Your Brother
John
:rolleyes:

It's just one of those subjects that has been discussed several times.

There will never be the unity as there was during the SGM Parker days. Everybody will do their own thing. After the 1st generations are gone, I'm sorry to say, many will go their own way.

Right now, Kenpo is a generic term for a grouping of various systems.

20 years down the road, it's quite possible that American Kenpo will be a generic term for a style which will comprised many different systems. Its already started and I'm sure some will say that's what it is now.

These are just my opinions and I could always be wrong.

[jazkiljok]

Originally posted by Zoran
It's just one of those subjects that has been discussed several times.

There will never be the unity as there was during the SGM Parker days. Everybody will do their own thing. After the 1st generations are gone, I'm sorry to say, many will go their own way.

Right now, Kenpo is a generic term for a grouping of various systems.

20 years down the road, it's quite possible that American Kenpo will be a generic term for a style which will comprised many different systems. Its already started and I'm sure some will say that's what it is now.

These are just my opinions and I could always be wrong.
just not likley.

there wasn't much unity in Mr. Parker's day either-- most of his first group of black belts left him REAL early. He maintain good relations with a few of them but they still went off to do their own version of Kenpo or other arts.

German, Ibrao, Tracy, Inosanto, Dimmick, Castro, Muhammed, Tuilosega, etc.

peace.

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by Zoran
Marion Webster definition of Tradition.
an inherited, established, or customary pattern of thought, action, or behavior (as a religious practice or a social custom)

Traditionalized would be to make traditional.

Basically what that means to me is to stick to a certain pattern of thinking and doing things. Never going "outside the box" when it comes to looking at the system as a whole. Sometimes we get wrapped up in the rules, forms, and techniques, we loose the big picture.

Just my opinion. :asian:


Ed Parkers American Kenpo however is just that...... LOGIC..... utilizing whatever is necessary for the current circumstances as tailored for the individual.

I feel that there is a GREAT foundation already systematized... it's when individuals do not learn completely or understand the broad interpretations, is when there becomes a problem of limited expansion.

Our "Traditional" system is based upon learning all of the "Kenpo Tools" (learning the strong foundation [physical, mental & spiritual] that was established and training it) that we now have and continually searching/expanding for new or better ones. Thinking "outside the box" is a set philosophy for the advanced student. So many, are still in the embryonic stages of technique sequencing that they do not see and may never see the beauty of what Ed Parker really had developed, a multi-dimensional system.

What I want from my organizations students is to learn as much as they can from me, develop strong physical skills, learn the Kenpo Tools well, practice what they have learned, then explore and validate for themselves what has been shown to them by researching other "Kenpo Systems" and compare the material and results. It will be self evident.

Also I try to instill discipline, respect for the founder of the System (Ed Parker), His art and our lineage, camaraderie, (a sincere effort to always work with and help each other & share their specific individual talents on anything that they can), and finally to pass on all the art as they have received for the future generations to benefit as we have.

Dedicated students are hard to find...... but they are out there! The training may not be easy, fun, or convenient at times, but like the old saying goes...... "When the student is ready....... the teacher will appear".

The future looks very bright to me.....

"There are two ways of spreading the light.... 1) to be the candle, or 2) the mirror that reflects it."

:asian:

[Kenpo Yahoo]

I was hoping you might jump in here. Thank you for your response, your insight is always appreciated.

[Goldendragon7]

Thank you!

:asian:

[Sigung86]

Being a "Tracyite", my comments may not be welcome, but you're gonna get them anyway. :lol:

I think that folks have to see beyond the politics ... Those are going to be around forever. All the American Kenpo Associations, in my limited experience, seem to be in an ongoing process of stealing students from each other. Good or bad? Don't know... But it is one sure way of spreading the art, and creating new ways of seeing, being and doing. There will be loyalists to each of the groups, but there are many who will move around and get different views and education. They will, in turn, push a lot of different views and slants on the theories, philosophies and techniques.

Occasionally I get questions from AK folks and they are surprised that the actuality doesn't live up to the "bad" press. We have as much of the technical as AK does, just different terms and those are only words. Definitions of anything we agree on are only as valid as your paradigm and hallucinations intermesh with mine. That's not to start an argument. Just saying that you can't believe all the boo-ha-ha that is out there, if you don't go and see for yourself. After all, the eskimos have 17 different definitive words for snow, whereas we only have about two, snow and yellow snow... And you have to watch where the huskies go, and dont you eat THAT yellow snow. :lol:

I see Kenpo in America continuing to be and expanding even more into different methods and ways, particularly as the seniors pass out of the art and their roots aren't as well grown or as deep as they should be perhaps. Maybe due to limited sight or concept of artistic potential given up in lieu of political gain.

Even the Tracy Organization goes through the splits and regroups. They're just not as widely advertised or well known. People are changing syllabus all the time, changing technique and grasping for financial and political power within the organizations, all of them, changing emphasis and realigning allegiances and loyalty.

The only thing that is really certain in any living art like Kenpo is change. Particularly as our education process and communication process improves. We would have killed for internet connectivity back in the mid-sixties when I, and a number of others first got into the arts, way back in the old days. I'm excited to see what this will all be and where we will all be in ten years. Who knows ...

And in an aside, I would be classified as a senior, but Dennis Conatser assures me that I really am his son, and so, am only a junior!
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Dan "Dennis Junior but somewhat better looking" Farmer

[Brother John]

In twenty years most of the kenpo "seniors" will be out of the loop, so to speak (a nice way of saying GONE). Where do you see kenpo in 20 years?

I think that it's scope will be even more vast than it is now, as a whole. By that I mean that the different "branches", if you will, will add a great deal of diversity and change. Some will raise the bar higher than it's ever been (as I feel the AKKI is doing, along with some others) some will just be 'different', some will stay the same and others will water-down and dilute. I think that the torch must be passed for logic and refinement regardless of what 'branch' your'e on... this is what will make Kenpo and Kenpoists greater and greater. Kenpo is enriched by the presence of the "Elder Dragons" of Kenpo, but when they "Pass" (in whatever manner you may take that) it's what they have given us that will go on breathing or die; Kenpo doesn't rely on them... no matter how much we may love them.

my thoughts
Your Brother
John

[John James]

Hello Everyone,
I usually don't partake in these discussions, but this one is one that I have been pondering since my teacher, Professor Cerio, passed away. It is true that after the passing of a leader/founder that things will not be the same as they were when the leader was alive. No matter how hard the system tries. The evolution of the martial arts is growth and sometimes this requires change. Sometimes big and sometimes small. When Professor Cerio passed away, the schools that wanted to leave and go independent did just as it happened when other systems leaders passed away. The offshoot systems will definitely change, that usually is the primary reason for them leaving. They want to be in charge/control of their future and they want control over how they teach their art. This sometimes means 'modifying' techniques for the 'better'. My opinion on the future of Kenpo simple. When leaders pass away the senior students become the leaders. They have the responsiblity of upholding their teachers art and memory with honor and dignity. This is not only loyalty and respect for your teacher but it is also EXPECTED under the martial arts code of ethics. Why has Shotokan stayed relatively intact. Because senior students have been loyal to Funakoshi's teachings. However, I do advocate for the GROWTH of a system. It is only natural for senior students to emphasize what they like and can do best in their teachings. This is going to lead to sub-systems within a system if done correctly. This is a GOOD thing. One senior might continue his training in the 'traditional' Kenpo, another might choose jui-jitsu, another might continue along the internal arts. But ALL will continue to practice their BASE art together. Then they will add 'optional' techniques to the cirriculum when their understanding of their chosen specialty is sufficient to do so. This way you will have different flavors within a system and will make it more diverse and be able to grow with strength and unity rather than the usual student leaves and changes the school name and professes to be teaching the 'real' art. I am sorry for overdoing this post, but I sometimes shake my head in disbelief at what happens when the leader/founder passes. When this happens, the sytem should be STRONGER not weaker because all the seniors should band together to make sure that their teachers memory is upheld with honor and dignity. Unfortunately, you know the rest. This rarely happens. When seniors leave, are they doing it for their teacher or themselves? The art you learned is a gift given to you by your teacher and one he trusted to you. Do the right thing by him and make him proud that you were his student. Just my thoughts. Thank you for your time.
Sincerely
John James,
Nick Cerio's Kenpo

[Steve Howard]

Mr. James,
thank you. I don't think you overdid your post at all. Quite the contrary, I thought that you struck clearly and honestly into the heart of the matter. If we could embrace the basis of the art that we share while celebrating our individual differences and uniqueness instead of arguing over who gets to be top man on the totem pole our art would be much stronger. Let's hope your post didn't fall on completely deaf ears. Our senior have started to take steps toward healing the rift with such events as Gathering of Eagles and similar gatherings. Let's hope the younger generation of practitioners will pick up this torch and really run with it.

Salute,
Steve Howard
www.kenporaw.bravepages.com

[Kroy]

As long as the IKKA is still around you will always see Parker Kenpo taught the way he intended. Stay true to the art.:asian:

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by Kroy
As long as the IKKA is still around you will always see Parker Kenpo taught the way he intended. Stay true to the art.:asian:
I hate to be the one to break the news to you but......... What does the IKKA have to do with the way Mr. Parker intended his system to be taught? I disagree totally!

There are several of us out here that are carrying on Mr. Parker's system "as Mr. Parker intended it to be taught" {as you say} equal to if not better than anyone in the IKKA. The "association" means nothing in relation to what you say, many of us who spent years with him are still as loyal today as we were 13 + years ago, (yes, I also realize that some are totally off base as well, but we can't stop them - can we) and are still keeping his name and his ART alive and well [the IKKO is such an Organization].

Please don't confuse specific associations with Ed Parker Loyalists, regardless of affiliation.

:asian:

[Chicago Green Dragon]

I see Kenpo in the future progressing forward but I also see the constant bickering and politics still being there. I do see a lot of new styles developing from Kenpo too. Previous students and teachers going their own way and progressing forward.

I understand there are different trees of life for different styles relating to Kenpo. I respect peoples trees from which they sprang.
But, I do feel that if the constant bickering and name calling was to seece the progress would be that much better.
With the exchange of techniques and thoughts that are out there. Kenpo could become something more incredible in the future then it ever was now.

Just my thought on the question of the future of Kenpo


Chicago Green
Dragon :asian:

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by Chicago Green Dragon
I see Kenpo in the future progressing forward but I also see the constant bickering and politics still being there.
Chicago Green Dragon :asian:

I think the "bickering and politics that you talk about is over exaggerated. Sure on the forums it is present (and like you say will always be there) but it is no worse than it was. In fact, when several of us get together ~ there is a lot of positive exchange going on .... I see it as getting better as the upper ranks exchange ideas thru camps and seminars more as time moves on.

The Future looks bright to me.

:asian:

[Kroy]

I stand corrected:asian:

[Iron Dog]

I don't know.... I think the future will require Kenpo to endure a few more "problems". But the art is bigger than the person in some respects since it comes in the form of thoughts, which become movements and ideas. Yet, the agendas of some will not let it bloom into each practitioner (unless they train specifically with them) and there can be one of the problems. That aside, the bulk of of those that pass it on (Black Belts) are genuine men and women and want the best for the system. When the Seniors go, new Seniors will take their place and the cream will rise to the top. To endure, one must be positive...which is hard sometimes..
I.D.:yinyang:

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by Iron Dog
When the Seniors go, new Seniors will take their place and "the cream will rise to the top". I.D.:yinyang:


Like I always say................ "You can lead a horse to water........... but you can't smear cake on his lips"!!!

:asian:

[molson]

quote: Originally posted by Iron Dog
When the Seniors go, new Seniors will take their place and "the cream will rise to the top". I.D.

True. But what if every organization splits when their senior is gone. Is there a potential for more splits and new associations and systems. There probably are around 100 now and could end up to be 1000. Can it get too watered down. With that said, I know the 4 0r 5 true associations will still be there.

[True2Kenpo]

Fellow Kenpoists,

I would have to agree with Mr. C... I believe there are a lot of great instructors beyond the bounds of the IKKA. Each in their own right are passing Kenpo on into a new and bright future.

Of course over time I feel new associations will emerge and some will dissolve, but Kenpo will live on no matter. Many people mention that Kenpo will become watered down, however I feel just the opposite. I think Kenpo will become even more sophisticated through instructors that preserve Mr. Parker's teachings and push on such as Mr. C, Mr. Planas, Mr. Whitson, Mr. Mills, and then list goes on and on...

Politics will always exist. But unity will always exist as well. We all love our journey in Kenpo and I feel if it came down to it, we would all put opinions aside and stand for each other. I know I would!

In anycase, I wish everyone the very best. Good journey!

Respectfully,
Joshua Ryer
UPK Pittsburgh

[warriorsage]

I also agree with the Golden One on this. The bad blood is out there for sure, but on the internet it seems like it is everywhere, running rampant.

I hate to dispell the myths, BUT I've worked out with quite a few different kenpo students and instructors from various "camps" and for the most part I've been welcomed and treated with respect. No pressure to convert. Not too much trash talking of others, and usually when it was done, it was more in the spirit of making my kenpo better: "well so-and-so does the technique like this, which is OK, but if you really look at it, you can see such-and-such isn't optimally efficient, etc."