Kenpo VS Krav Maga?

[Wingman]

I've always been very interested in Krav Maga ever since I first took notice of it a year or two ago, but with my schedule at the moment not allowing me to go and actually jump into a school in my area I've been basically just watching videos and reading what little information I can find to get a feel of the art.

I've been training in Kenpo for nearly a decade now, and for the later half of my training my focus has shifted to self defense as my top priority. This quest for self defense was part of what has inspired my curiosity in Krav Maga

What I've come to notice is what seems to be striking similarities (pun intended?) between Kenpo and Krav Maga as far as principles of execution go. Has anyone else noticed these similarities?

Granted many techniques within Kenpo flow into a more artful finish than the rugged ferocity of Krav Maga, but take some techniques such as: Flashing Mace, The Ram and The Eagle, Blinding Sacrifice, Fatal Deviation, Entwined Maces, to name a few, and cut them down to their first few basic movements, leaving the sometimes fancy endings out. I believe there to be a strong similarity in principles when you look at it this way.

Other techniques seem to translate much more directly in idea. For example, Mace of Agression, Glancing Salute, Raking Mace, Snapping Twig, Gift of Destruction, Broken Gift, Conquering shield, Triggered Salute, Shielding Hammer, Thrusting Wedge, Thrusting Prongs, Tripping Arrow, Repeated Devastation, Calming/Securing the Storm.... the list just continues to grow the more I think about it.

Just thought I'd throw this minor 'revelation' out there if thats what I was going to call it?

Anyone else see where Im coming from?

[Topeng]

"Although Krav Maga shares many techniques with other martial arts, such as wing chun, eskrima, aikido, boxing, judo, jujutsu, karate, kobudo, muay thai, savate, or wrestling, the training is often quite different. It stresses fighting under worst-case conditions or from disadvantaged positions (for example, against several opponents, when protecting someone else, with one arm unusable, when dizzy, against armed opponents). Unlike Karate there are no predefined sequences of moves or choreographed styles; instead Krav Maga emphasizes rapid learning and the retzef ("continuous combat motion"), with the sole imperative being effectiveness, for either attack or defensive situations." - Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krav_maga

When Imi Lichtenfeld developed the system, it was to protect the Jewish people from Nazi militias. I believe he took techniques from multiple systems that he thought were the most practical and put them together to develop Krav Maga.

[ChadWarner]

"Although Krav Maga shares many techniques with other martial arts, such as wing chun, eskrima, aikido, boxing, judo, jujutsu, karate, kobudo, muay thai, savate, or wrestling, the training is often quite different. It stresses fighting under worst-case conditions or from disadvantaged positions (for example, against several opponents, when protecting someone else, with one arm unusable, when dizzy, against armed opponents). Unlike Karate there are no predefined sequences of moves or choreographed styles; instead Krav Maga emphasizes rapid learning and the retzef ("continuous combat motion"), with the sole imperative being effectiveness, for either attack or defensive situations." - Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krav_maga

When Imi Lichtenfeld developed the system, it was to protect the Jewish people from Nazi militias. I believe he took techniques from multiple systems that he thought were the most practical and put them together to develop Krav Maga.


American Kenpo is not Karate. It is a label that stuck with the art and was never shaken loose. That does not mean Karate in it's various forms such as Koei Kan Karate do and other full contanct versions are not deadly. All art forms at higher level seek one thing- removal of a threat. In the end many forms of self defense look the same.

[Doc]

American Kenpo is not Karate. It is a label that stuck with the art and was never shaken loose. That does not mean Karate in it's various forms such as Koei Kan Karate do and other full contanct versions are not deadly. All art forms at higher level seek one thing- removal of a threat. In the end many forms of self defense look the same.
It's amazing how many people haven't figured that out. "kenpo-karate," and "American kenpo" are not the same, while everything else for most is labeled some form of "karate" or "MMA" now to sale it.

[Blindside]

It's amazing how many people haven't figured that out. "kenpo-karate," and "American kenpo" are not the same, while everything else for most is labeled some form of "karate" or "MMA" now to sale it.

IKKA
WKKA
LTKKA
AKKS
IKKO
etc.

If first generation seniors can't figure out how to appropriately label their own organization names, why are we surprised that their students and the general public are confused?

Lamont

[Doc]

IKKA
WKKA
LTKKA
AKKS
IKKO
etc.

If first generation seniors can't figure out how to appropriately label their own organization names, why are we surprised that their students and the general public are confused?

Lamont

We of the MSU, SL-4 branch don't know what you mean.

[Tames D]

IKKA
WKKA
LTKKA
AKKS
IKKO
etc.

If first generation seniors can't figure out how to appropriately label their own organization names, why are we surprised that their students and the general public are confused?

Lamont
I know what you mean.

[ChadWarner]

It's amazing how many people haven't figured that out. "kenpo-karate," and "American kenpo" are not the same, while everything else for most is labeled some form of "karate" or "MMA" now to sale it.

Well lets see, we have been on these boards since what, 98 ,when the kenponet started up? How are you still amazed? No where on my Blackbelt Degrees does it say karate. I have a very strong feeling it ain't just us!

[Topeng]

I wasn't trying to label kenpo as karate so my apologies to those who may have thought that. I believe the article was giving examples of different arts that Krava Maga shares techniques with. It would be too lengthy an example list to name all styles so I think they just included the most common terms.
I agree that each art has its share of deadly techniques. It seems the popularity of MMA tend to attract people to "sport" versions of an art instead of the combat aspect for which they were developed. The rules of not going for eyes, throat, small joint manipulation, has made the general public think of martial arts differently.
Either people tend to think that MMA is the definition of combat, or that martial arts in general are watered down and incomplete due to MMA'ers learning several arts to be competitive (i.e. Muay Thai/BJJ). I'm not sure which view is worse (Maybe another thread topic).
In this light, I suspect Krav Maga's popularity has increased due to advertising brutality and being developed in a place with such a history of violence. Now I know almost if not every art was developed as a reaction to violence but: Using Japan as an example, the time when most of these combat arts were developed and had to be used is considered ancient history and unfortunately forgotten by the average person. Its the current day unrest towards Israelis which makes Krav Maga so appealing.

[Doc]

Well lets see, we have been on these boards since what, 98 ,when the kenponet started up? How are you still amazed? No where on my Blackbelt Degrees does it say karate. I have a very strong feeling it ain't just us!

Well, there's two of us Chad. :)

[Doc]

I wasn't trying to label kenpo as karate so my apologies to those who may have thought that.

Don't apologize. Not necessary. Just pointing out how important words and terms can be for understanding in a print media that all.


I believe the article was giving examples of different arts that Krava Maga shares techniques with. It would be too lengthy an example list to name all styles so I think they just included the most common terms.
I agree that each art has its share of deadly techniques. It seems the popularity of MMA tend to attract people to "sport" versions of an art instead of the combat aspect for which they were developed.

A good and very important observation. Most arts in the era of commercialism have multiple aspects, each focused on a particular sales demographic. Sport and self-defense are the two major categories. However both can and do give distorted views of the nature of many of the art forms. Both have a level of realistic application, but both can be wholly unrealistic as well. The good thing about the "sport" component is, the level of realism it brings is at least quantifiable, while many self defense interpretations train for the what they say they could have done, and eliminate aspects of reality unknown or fall outside the available information. We call this hypothetical training. "If you do that, I could have poked you in the eye." At least in sport you have to actually do, whatever it is you do.


The rules of not going for eyes, throat, small joint manipulation, has made the general public think of martial arts differently. Either people tend to think that MMA is the definition of combat, or that martial arts in general are watered down and incomplete due to MMA'ers learning several arts to be competitive (i.e. Muay Thai/BJJ). I'm not sure which view is worse (Maybe another thread topic).

Because of the extreme physical nature of what they do, I think most people look at it and think what they see is actual fighting, and on one level it is of course. When a linebacker blitzes and hits the QB, the violence is real, even though it is within a framework of rules and restrictions. Even here they equate a tough football player with the ability to fight, which isn't necessarily so. In shape, tough, and physical, yes. But only a fighter within the framework of what and how they train. I've seem great athletes in games have "fights," only to discover as great players and athletes they are, they can't even throw a decent punch at each other.


In this light, I suspect Krav Maga's popularity has increased due to advertising brutality and being developed in a place with such a history of violence. Now I know almost if not every art was developed as a reaction to violence but: Using Japan as an example, the time when most of these combat arts were developed and had to be used is considered ancient history and unfortunately forgotten by the average person. Its the current day unrest towards Israelis which makes Krav Maga so appealing.

Now here we disagree. Its appeal comes from it ease of instruction from the perspective, its a "do this" kind of instruction. No training to develop as in more traditional arts requiring more discipline. Just "put your arm up and block, grab this, and hit like this" training. The results by comparison is easier not withstanding the "tough mindset" aspect.

Self defense courses have always been sold this way. "Down and dirty," "the best of all the other arts," "Just the stuff you need to protect yourself," "bare bones and effective," "learned quick," "The ultimate in self defense," etc. All of them are an out growth of short self defense classes originally designed for quick civilian training in general, and women in particular, self defense.

forming an entire art around this concept, and awarding rank for participation is a businessman's dream. Unfortunately, these type of arts because of their lack of consistency in training and interpretation, don't transfer well from generation-to-generation. The loose interpretive nature of the concept belies any consistent transfer of methodology because the emphasis is on "results." This is inherent because of the awarding rank, coupled with the assume presumption that if you have "rank," you therefore should be able to teach. A failed concept that creates under most circumstances a less competent product every student/instructor generation.

To this extent, all of the traditional arts have been corrupted on some level for fiscal survival, focusing on one aspect or the other, awarding belts to aid retention and revenue, and watching in many cases the "so-called masters" get younger and younger with ranking climbing higher and higher.

[DavidCC]

forming an entire art around this concept, and awarding rank for participation is a businessman's dream. Unfortunately, these type of arts because of their lack of consistency in training and interpretation, don't transfer well from generation-to-generation. The loose interpretive nature of the concept belies any consistent transfer of methodology because the emphasis is on "results." This is inherent because of the awarding rank, coupled with the assume presumption that if you have "rank," you therefore should be able to teach. A failed concept that creates under most circumstances a less competent product every student/instructor generation.

"The loose interpretive nature of the concept belies any consistent transfer of methodology"

If I can ever contribute one thing to the people I train with and under, it will be to work to make this be less true for our system. It drives me crazy.

[Doc]

"The loose interpretive nature of the concept belies any consistent transfer of methodology"

If I can ever contribute one thing to the people I train with and under, it will be to work to make this be less true for our system. It drives me crazy.

The reason everything must be codified and well defined amongst those who teach, from a standardized curriculum, before personal interpretations come into play.

[DavidCC]

We have all of our techniques and forms written in a standard format - the HOW (or the WHAT to do) is now standardized for us to that extent.

I'm finding that as I explore the WHY sometimes the answers I find don't support the HOW :/ usually this turns out to be a lack in my understanding of HOW haha

[Doc]

We have all of our techniques and forms written in a standard format - the HOW (or the WHAT to do) is now standardized for us to that extent.

I'm finding that as I explore the WHY sometimes the answers I find don't support the HOW :/ usually this turns out to be a lack in my understanding of HOW haha

I have never seen any system with a truly codified curriculum of "how" to execute. The reason is a simple one. It would take several lifetimes to write it down and IF you did, it would be so physically and intellectually demanding to read, it would be virtually useless to the novice student trying to learn, because you would need the intellectual knowledge of what you are reading in order to attempt to physically put it into action. That's where teachers come into play.

It's like sports in a sense. The skills are learned and taught from a series of multi-level coaches. The higher you go, the more skilled and knowledgeable the coach to get you to perform at that level. The difference in sports is you move to the next level based on potential, and many fail. Even at the highest level, there are only a few coaches that are considered to be the best at what they do. The rest are just barely adequate. Additionally, sports is relatively easy to learn and understand in comparison to a true martial science.

There are forms and sets that are supposed to teach you "how," and give you basic skills. But you'll never find a "how" in a book. Standardized curriculum just keeps everyone on the same page to various degrees, but knowledge of the how will always be in the hands of a very, very few "master coaches."

We all would like to think that our coach is one of the better ones, and he actually gave or gives us high level information. But unlike sports, we don't have to go out and test the information everyday, so we can make the assumption what we do is valid and that our coaches are truly masters of what they do. In most cases, we're wrong. Most of use are just doing "Pop Warner" and love it, and in a country of 300 million people, there are less than 400 in the NFL. But as long as we don't have to use it, and we enjoy it, what does it matter?

Which reminds me Dave, how is the sweetie pie doing? I need her to carry on my lineage. My girls are martial arts useless, and fiscally draining. :)

[DavidCC]

Which reminds me Dave, how is the sweetie pie doing? I need her to carry on my lineage. My girls are martial arts useless, and fiscally draining. :)

She is awesome as usual :) We went to a tapas bar last night for my birthday, and she ate more than her share of marinated anchovy filets, rabbit skewers, beef carpaccio, steamed mussels, pickled garlic, marinated olives, lamb skewers, pancetta-wrapped melon...

She did a lot better sparring last weekend than I did :/ She beats up the boys 3 and 4 years older then herself (7 yrs old), and fends off 4 classmates at a time trying to wrassle her to the floor. While sporting a french pedicure courtesy of her big sister.
http://www.martialtalk.com/gallery/albums/userpics/13299/normal_blackeye.gif

[DavidCC]

I have never seen any system with a truly codified curriculum of "how" to execute. The reason is a simple one. It would take several lifetimes to write it down and IF you did, it would be so physically and intellectually demanding to read, it would be virtually useless to the novice student trying to learn, because you would need the intellectual knowledge of what you are reading in order to attempt to physically put it into action. That's where teachers come into play.

It's like sports in a sense. The skills are learned and taught from a series of multi-level coaches. The higher you go, the more skilled and knowledgeable the coach to get you to perform at that level. The difference in sports is you move to the next level based on potential, and many fail. Even at the highest level, there are only a few coaches that are considered to be the best at what they do. The rest are just barely adequate. Additionally, sports is relatively easy to learn and understand in comparison to a true martial science.

There are forms and sets that are supposed to teach you "how," and give you basic skills. But you'll never find a "how" in a book. Standardized curriculum just keeps everyone on the same page to various degrees, but knowledge of the how will always be in the hands of a very, very few "master coaches."

We all would like to think that our coach is one of the better ones, and he actually gave or gives us high level information. But unlike sports, we don't have to go out and test the information everyday, so we can make the assumption what we do is valid and that our coaches are truly masters of what they do. In most cases, we're wrong. Most of use are just doing "Pop Warner" and love it, and in a country of 300 million people, there are less than 400 in the NFL. But as long as we don't have to use it, and we enjoy it, what does it matter?



Well, I meant that we have writen "what to do" of course :) I'll try to be more precise...

but it raises the question, what did you mean when you wrote
"everything must be codified and well defined amongst those who teach"? Not necessarily written to be codified?

At least I have identified the biggest barrier to reaching my goal... I haven't defined it properly.


"But as long as we don't have to use it, and we enjoy it, what does it matter?"

I think it's like Schroedinger's cat... it doesn't matter, until it does, then it matters a lot.

[Doc]

She is awesome as usual :) We went to a tapas bar last night for my birthday, and she ate more than her share of marinated anchovy filets, rabbit skewers, beef carpaccio, steamed mussels, pickled garlic, marinated olives, lamb skewers, pancetta-wrapped melon...

She did a lot better sparring last weekend than I did :/ She beats up the boys 3 and 4 years older then herself (7 yrs old), and fends off 4 classmates at a time trying to wrassle her to the floor. While sporting a french pedicure courtesy of her big sister.
http://www.martialtalk.com/gallery/albums/userpics/13299/normal_blackeye.gif

You, my friend, are in more trouble than I am.

[Doc]

Well, I meant that we have writen "what to do" of course :) I'll try to be more precise...

but it raises the question, what did you mean when you wrote
"everything must be codified and well defined amongst those who teach"? Not necessarily written to be codified?

There are varying degrees of codification. To be more successful in a true system, the level of codification will reflect and dictate the level of the instructors who are a part of the system themselves.

In Ed Parker's commercial system (kenpo-Karate) as an example, the entire system consists of conceptual ideas that are left to interpretation by the student and teacher alike. Therefore higher levels of information mandate an instructor of an extraordinary level of skill and knowledge to bring students to higher levels. But because the instructors are a product of the system itself, it becomes self-limiting.

You will find the best Kenpo-Karate teachers had significant previous experience with other arts (outside of large organizational groups) prior to coming to the concept. Additionally, there are those that leave the concept to seek other ideas and skills to bolster the concepts they have learned in Kenpo-Karate.

The higher the degree and understanding of the written material, and the more meticulous the presentation, the easier it is to supplement instruction by competent products of the same system. But it must, in fact, be a system that demands specifics in understanding and execution long before anyone is allowed to freeform or explore. Basic skills are learned, not explored, tailored, or rearranged. That is something only the knowledgeable can do after many years within the framework of a defined system.


At least I have identified the biggest barrier to reaching my goal... I haven't defined it properly. "But as long as we don't have to use it, and we enjoy it, what does it matter?" I think it's like Schroedinger's cat... it doesn't matter, until it does, then it matters a lot.

You got it sir. A true conundrum when looking up from below.

[DavidCC]

...A true conundrum when looking up from below.

just trying to keep climbing, keep my feet on the stairs... it's dark but thanks for letting me borrow your flashlight :)

[Doc]

just trying to keep climbing, keep my feet on the stairs... it's dark but thanks for letting me borrow your flashlight :)

Stop pushin' willya! I going as fast as I can, and I can't see what's comin'.

[teej]

Krav Maga does not have anything in it that we do not have in Kenpo. So what is the difference? Presentation.

The "techniques" are a teaching model for teaching the body motion and only that. Yes, under the ideal situation the techniques can work as taught from point A-Z, or first taught move through the last move, but then again every thing taught regardless of the art can work under in the correct situation.

Krav Maga is a lot of drill training. Kenpo should also have a lot of drill training but a lot of instructors out there are stuck in the "technique" mode of teaching. You can find every strike taught in Krav Maga in Kenpo buried in one of our techniques somewhere.

I'll finish with this example. A friend of mine in Ireland studies EP Kenpo 2 days a week and a Krav Maga type of combat fighting 2 other days per week. He asked me about the Kenpo technique Locked Wing. He told me that after the initial stepping back and hitting the opponent with the elbow in his face, he said he would not probably do the rest of locked wing. He said he would [from his other combat training class] hammer fist the opponent into submission.

So my response was go ahead! No one said he can't do that. It is possible after a properly placed elbow strike the attack may be over. No where in my kenpo teaching was I ever taught that on the street when attacked I had to do Locked Wing from the first move through the last move. You do what ever you have to to surive.

Again, the techniques are strictly a teaching model to teach the students body mechanics and to develope the students body weapons and foot work. The key is that the Krav Maga teaching method of spontaneous reaction drills has left a lot of Kenpo schools. Not all Kenpo schools, but apparently a lot of them. Again, Krav Maga does not have anything in it as far as weapons that I have seen that we do not already in EP kenpo.

Teej

[shihansmurf]

Krav Maga does not have anything in it that we do not have in Kenpo. So what is the difference? Presentation Teej

Outstanding point. KM strips down the material and internalizes the basics much better than most kenpo schools that I have been to. Something to that.


The key is that the Krav Maga teaching method of spontaneous reaction drills has left a lot of Kenpo schools.

What sort of drills do you use in your school? Would you mind posting a write up of some of them? I am always looking to improve my class structure and this sounds useful.

Thanks
Mark

[girlbug2]

Speaking as a level one KM student and a greenbelt American Kenpo student, I will basically second Teej's post above.

My Kenpo sensei told us that in a real life self defense situation, most people will not consciously perform a complete technique from start to finish, they will just react and ad lib with a mixup of what they learned from technique training. Likewise, Krav Maga has taught me several things in only 3 months time that suspiciously resemble American Kenpo, but with their own twists, and the instructors are quick to point out that you should do whatever works and that there is no "right" or "wrong" way to finish off -- as long as your first few moves are done effectively.

So far, what I'm getting in comparing the two systems is that AK seeks to get the attacker down on the ground and well incapacitated before the martial artist backs off and then runs or whatever. KM doesn't necessarily aim to get the attacker on the ground or completely incapacitated, just to get the attacker foiled and to back off long enough to buy time so the martial artist can flee. Then again I am only a Level One, maybe at the higher levels it is different.

In any case, formality aside, I see them both as more alike than different in the end.

[Doc]

Speaking as a level one KM student and a greenbelt American Kenpo student, I will basically second Teej's post above.

My Kenpo sensei told us that in a real life self defense situation, most people will not consciously perform a complete technique from start to finish, they will just react and ad lib with a mixup of what they learned from technique training. Likewise, Krav Maga has taught me several things in only 3 months time that suspiciously resemble American Kenpo, but with their own twists, and the instructors are quick to point out that you should do whatever works and that there is no "right" or "wrong" way to finish off -- as long as your first few moves are done effectively.

So far, what I'm getting in comparing the two systems is that AK seeks to get the attacker down on the ground and well incapacitated before the martial artist backs off and then runs or whatever. KM doesn't necessarily aim to get the attacker on the ground or completely incapacitated, just to get the attacker foiled and to back off long enough to buy time so the martial artist can flee. Then again I am only a Level One, maybe at the higher levels it is different.

In any case, formality aside, I see them both as more alike than different in the end.

That speaks volumes of your experience in the two with those that teach. :)

[teej]

Not to get off the subject and not to start any arguments, I would like to post a very reliable opinion concerning Krav Maga taught in the US.

I know a man that travels atleast twice if not more per year to Israel. Besides being a Rabbi, he is a Kali instructor. He told me that the Krav Maga taught in the US is not the same Krav Maga taught and practiced in Israel. He stated that the US versions being taught are commercialized versions of what is being taught to Israels'.

Don't ask me to elaborate. You'll have to talk to someone who has seen both for an answer. This is just a statement to get you thinking.

Teej

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Not to get off the subject and not to start any arguments, I would like to post a very reliable opinion concerning Krav Maga taught in the US.

I know a man that travels atleast twice if not more per year to Israel. Besides being a Rabbi, he is a Kali instructor. He told me that the Krav Maga taught in the US is not the same Krav Maga taught and practiced in Israel. He stated that the US versions being taught are commercialized versions of what is being taught to Israels'.

Don't ask me to elaborate. You'll have to talk to someone who has seen both for an answer. This is just a statement to get you thinking.

Teej

One of my ex-wifes best friends is Israeli, living here in the US. She did her stint in the service over there. Her BROTHER is special forces in Israel, and comes over often to visit and see the baby. HHe and I have had some great backyard sessions going over kenpo vs. krav, and I can asuure you that the version being trained in "over there" is substantially different than what's available in the U.S. phone book.

Interestingly, we've each picked up some great stuff from the other; started out somewhat antagonistic, and ended with us becoming the best of friends, and exchanging e-mails, notes, and ideas on a regular basis.

Scary guy, but you should see him with his nieces and nephews...melts like a little softy.

[Doc]

One of my ex-wifes best friends is Israeli, living here in the US. She did her stint in the service over there. Her BROTHER is special forces in Israel, and comes over often to visit and see the baby. HHe and I have had some great backyard sessions going over kenpo vs. krav, and I can asuure you that the version being trained in "over there" is substantially different than what's available in the U.S. phone book.

Interestingly, we've each picked up some great stuff from the other; started out somewhat antagonistic, and ended with us becoming the best of friends, and exchanging e-mails, notes, and ideas on a regular basis.

Scary guy, but you should see him with his nieces and nephews...melts like a little softy.

I too have come in contact with people from there in "the business," and they all say the same thing. Night and day. Real Krav has everything in it, including firearms instruction, and covert hand-to-hand combat techniques.

It is my understanding that commercially available Krav depends heavily upon the background of whomever they get to teach. So, some Krav looks like Kenpo, some like JKD, and still others look like TKD. I went to one school and they were teaching students to kick guns and knives out of an attackers hands.

I mean after all, you don't think a whole bunch of Israeli Special Forces guys just left Isreal and came over to the U.S. to bring their expertise to teach Krav Maga all at once do you? One "agent" told me that if you counted all of the guys teaching Krav Maga in the U.S., the number would probably exceed the whole of Israeli Special Forces. So, where did all of these "experts" come from?

[teej]

I too have come in contact with people from there in "the business," and they all say the same thing. Night and day. Real Krav has everything in it, including firearms instruction, and covert hand-to-hand combat techniques.

It is my understanding that commercially available Krav depends heavily upon the background of whomever they get to teach. So, some Krav looks like Kenpo, some like JKD, and still others look like TKD. I went to one school and they were teaching students to kick guns and knives out of an attackers hands.

I mean after all, you don't think a whole bunch of Israeli Special Forces guys just left Isreal and came over to the U.S. to bring their expertise to teach Krav Maga all at once do you? One "agent" told me that if you counted all of the guys teaching Krav Maga in the U.S., the number would probably exceed the whole of Israeli Special Forces. So, where did all of these "experts" come from?

The Rabbi I know that frequently travels over has the opinion that their knife stuff is outdated. [he is a kali instructor] so when he is there, he trains with their special forces specifically knife stuff.

And they do have alot of different backgrounds that they train with. I just heard from another instructor that went over a group had been training in Brazilian Jui-jitsu. So this American instructor had their best student come out and had another student attack him. The 1st guy did and perfect BJ take down and went for a submission. While he was doing this, the American instructor had all the other students attack him. The student was overwhelmed and would have died in combat. Then the American instructor found out that these guys never trained with their gear on! [do you guys know that American soldiers vest with kevlar weighs "45" lbs.!!! Not including their other gear, supplies or ammo!} Try grappling with this stuff on. Grappling has it's merits, but you have to train how you will be fighting. Now I don't wear Kevlar vests, but our troops do and anyone who does needs to train with their gear. Kenpo guys keep in mind that Mr. Parker had a background in Judo, but in studying kenpo, training in and teaching kenpo, his concern was dealing with multiple opponents.

Again, you can take the Krav Maga type drills and add them to your kenpo classes and build them around whatever lesson you are working on that week. Maybe Doc would consider sharing what classes, or class drills were like before the commercialized Kenpo came to being??

As for all the different types of Krav Maga instructors in this country? Hasn't that same thing happened to American Kenpo? Young instructors, I don't mean in age, out there teaching and changing things but don't know why or have an understanding as to why Mr. Parker was doing things a certain way. Isn't that why kenpo looks different all over the US? Isn't that why you can find kenpo black belts enter and KENPO forms division at a tournament and do Kenpo form 4, he adds flying spinning kicks and splits and does not understand why he did not place or scored badly in a kenpo division. [wow, how did I get going on this?]

Bottom line, Krav Maga has its merits as all arts do. Does Krav Maga do anything EP Kenpo does not? No. All of us can break our kenpo basics down and make our classes look like Krav Maga. I think it all comes down to "a fight is a fight is just a fight". My heart just happens to belong to kenpo.
Teej

[silvestre]

hi

AMERICAN KENPO RULES:)