S&T: Dealing with a bigger opponent

[Kenpo Yahoo]

Strategy and Tactics

Let's start by setting the environment, you are in an area with a high concentration of people (club, football game, mall, etc..) the location isn't as important as the idea that there are other people around. So you are in this highly populated area when you bump into someone or look at someone funny, or breath wrong (most of you know how this goes). Unfortunately, the person that percieved this is beligerant and a little bit bigger than you. Assuming that you have no alternative but to fight, formulate a good S&T approach to surviving/evading/defeating your opponent in this confrontation. Please don't assume total stupidity on the point of your attacker, and please don't ramble about the 7th and 8th move of your attack because in a dynamic fight you'll have to wing a lot of it.

Since I'm about average height and weight, by bigger I mean 6 foot plus and 200-260lbs

[muayThaiPerson]

It was at school...He wanted to fight me but I didnt even look at him. So nothing happend. But if something were to happen, Id have to go for a stomach shot. Its pointless to try to reach for his head. When he goes down, id lock his head and wont let go

[dearnis.com]

I would argue that strategy and tactics don't apply at this point; we are already at a level of technique because the scenario is so focused...
Since the scenario suggests having to fight I assume that a retreat/tactical withdrawl is out of the question.
Some variable that are not specified: are you alone, or not. if not who are you with? Is the attacker solo? If not who is he with? Have you been drinking? Has he? Drugs? Clothing? Weapons?
On a very simple level take a leg, work up as needed to create space, and get out fast (remeber, scenario states you have no choice but fighting).
Now, to answer the question with some questions, what do the above variables do to the situation?
Tactically, what did you do to be so boxed in that you 'had' to fight?

Just food for thought.

[Kenpo Yahoo]

While I think that there should be adequate training in martial diplomacy (avoiding, evading, de-escalation), I also believe that it is possible to evaluate things from a Clausewitzian perspective(hey look at that, I just made up a new word). In other words, you don't care why diplomacy has failed your job is to determine how to bring down your opponent.

The reason I ask this is because one day it may be necessary to do so, and if you haven't given any thought as to the steps you will take you could find your self way over your head.

Let's simplify this a bit and start small.

What type of posture will you adopt defensive or offensive and why? Is your plan to wait to be attacked so that you can DEFEND with a prescribed technique or do you act on the assumption of INTENT?

I personally would TRY and act on intent if it were clearly perceivable.

[Antares33]

I tend to subscribe to the theory that going into a fight with a plan is a great way to get yourself killed.

Generally speaking though, against a bigger opponent since I'm not a very big buy I'd have to chop him down with low leg kicks or shots to the groin.

[James Kovacich]

I have a natural response that is pretty good at slowing down an attack to assert some control. Everybody is differant and if he's already in motion with a haymaker its a differant game. But if he's just coming at you, as soon as he motions his hands I naturally just grab his hands. Its simple, just imagine his hands in front of you. You grab at the wrists, your hands (palm side on wrist) on the outside, also on top, if you can picture that.

Its easy to control someones hand movement, but you don't go looking for it. I think this came to me when I crossed over from Jun Fan Gung-Fu to Brazilian Jiu-jitsu. Its really the simplist form of a trap, you don't want to hold onto someone, eventually power will win. As you grab, both of his hands are briefly unavailable. He'll have to react and then you go with it.

Main thing is being in control. Its just a quick simple method of control. A good follow up, from 2 hand control, push or pull 1 of he hands, whichever you more comfortable with. Your better hand is your striking hand. I would like to step in and jam (with my left hand) his right arm into his left arm and punch or eyejab and punch or whatever comes out.

I use trapping in training but when I teach, being realistic don't expect tp fight a fight that looks like a movie. If you use footwork. bob and weave, you should be able to trap an arm, but you have to follow with a realistic fininsh.

It wouldn't be realistic to say trap, then punch to the stomach then grab the hair or whatever. You'll never pull it off. It is realistic to use a stopping or intercepting technique to create the opening for a quick finish.

As far as the fight in the niteclub. Avoid it. If you fall, you'll get stomped! But if you can't avoid it, whatever you do, do it quick and slip away into the crowd.

[Kenpo Yahoo]

I tend to subscribe to the theory that going into a fight with a plan is a great way to get yourself killed.


That's funny because I've always subscribed to the 7 P idea:
Proper Prior Planning Prevent Piss Poor Performance. I don't think it's ever wrong to have a plan, but as a wise man once said," It is a bad plan that doesn't allow modification." In other words I'm not talking about going in and saying," Hmmm I think I'll do Five Swords here (a kenpo tech), that should take care of the situation." Rather what I'm asking is what is your first move? Will you kick the inside or outside of the thighs/knees, will you shuffle in to establish a clinch position, will you aim for the head/jaw/neck? Will you adopt a total defensive posture and retreat backwards with your hands up to ward off punches? Will you shoot in for a takedown? I'm just curious what everyone's initial plan is.

I plan on asking this question to several members in our association in a couple weeks. There are a group of guys and gals that work at a pretty wild night club in an extremely wild town (Vegas) and most of the bouncers there are kenpo blackbelts, hopefully I can draw from their expertise. Anyway, That's partly why I asked about the nightclub.

[white belt]

Eyes, Throat, Groin and move outside his lead foot, into his blindside, until you score hard.

white belt

[Kenpo Yahoo]

I'm not sure you should try to crush the eyes or throat, such an event is sure to have serious repercussions. For instance a hard shot to the throat will collapse the trachea, possibly causing death. Granted it is a possible plan of action, but as trained MA'ers and trained fighters we should be able to put down an opponent without having to kill or permanently maim them (i.e. the eye gouge).

[white belt]

That is why I say TAP or crush. If the tap does not get them to back off, THEN crush.

white belt

[sweeper]

well it takes a pritty hard hit to colaps the trachea and it has to be at the base of the neck, and as for eye gauging, I have seen the after affects of some prity serious hits to the eyes with no real dammage (blurry or no vission) and no long term effects, so it isn't 100% that you can maim or kill someone with those strikes unless you do get alot of power.

Personaly I like to kick people in the shins.. most people realy hate that. Try to scrape off some skin than buckle in the knee. But realy your environment plays a big role, I mean at a night club if you are on a dance floor it is probably fairly packed, if you are at a football game where are you getting into it? in an isle? on the stairs? Who has high ground? near venders?

One thing is in a public place unless you cen get out of there fast people are gona see you fighting and what you do to the guy could look realy bad (if he ends up covered in blood for example). I think you would have to go by the feal of the opponant. If he doesn't know what he's doing you might be able to angle off to a side and isolate a limb and maybe get some kind of a standing lock or bar on it, but if he has much skill it will be alt harder, personaly I would want to grab something and throw it and use lower kicks to keep distance, I'm not a good grappler and I realy don't want to wrestle someone larger than me. If posable I would try to back out so it's realy obvious that he is persuing me.

[redfive]

If the guys a lot bigger then me and already to pounce or act on me. I will not wait for his attack, but rather I will go on the attack. Elbow strikes and knees to the stomack area or sides would be my weapons of attack. Most people do not know how to fight close in or short range. But they always seem to end up in a clinch. I would start with a knee and that may be enough to end it right there, but if not I will knee and jump into him and start with the elbows to the head area, while still doing some knees. If hes that much bigger then me I would have to try to drop him quick and get out. Elbow and knees are the best. Then when I get enough time and distance I will draw my combat folder and cut him, which will gain me enough time to drop to a kneeling position and draw my glock 23 and shoot his friends that are rushing me. Well, strike those last statements. I carry all that but would not use them in that case. I would not try to go in for a grapling move or joint crank right off the bat. If in the battery of elbows and knees I see a good lock or take down that I could do as a transition, then I would go for it. But to hurt him in some way as to keep him from getting back up and comeing at me a repeated time would be my goal.
The only realy big guys I'v had trouble with as far as attitude are the Urban cowboys and country hicks. I cant think of the other name we call them here in Dallas, But Kenpo Yahoo knows what I mean. The good news is that they are very stiff in nature and can hardley move in the tight wrangler jeans they wear. Just beware the belt buckle. but it seems that if you look at them or have any type of eye contact with them, its the same as a challange. the ones that get pissed are always the big once.
Elbow and knees, and a good thai kicks to the legs

Your friend in the Combat Arts, Redfive

[redfive]

ROPERS, Thats the name I was looking for. They are the reason I dont go to country and western clubs anymore.

Redfive

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo
Strategy and Tactics

Let's start by setting the environment, you are in an area with a high concentration of people (club, football game, mall, etc..) the location isn't as important as the idea that there are other people around. So you are in this highly populated area when you bump into someone or look at someone funny, or breath wrong (most of you know how this goes). Unfortunately, the person that percieved this is beligerant and a little bit bigger than you. Assuming that you have no alternative but to fight, formulate a good S&T approach to surviving/evading/defeating your opponent in this confrontation. Please don't assume total stupidity on the point of your attacker, and please don't ramble about the 7th and 8th move of your attack because in a dynamic fight you'll have to wing a lot of it.

Since I'm about average height and weight, by bigger I mean 6 foot plus and 200-260lbs

Gee, since I am 6'3" and about 275 lbs, I guess I do not fit into the bigger but the huge catagory? :D

Seriously, I seem to have the exact opposite problem. That little guy that seems to think that buy running into me and pretending to be offended it allows him to swing.

So, if I swing first I am the bad guy for beating up the little guy.

If I wait I could get hurt.

Any recommendations on what should be done. Many times, the chance to offer to buy a beer is not even a possiblility for these guys go from jerk to fight in 0.6 seconds. :(


Curious about your input :confused:

[Kenpo Yahoo]

I have seen the after affects of some prity serious hits to the eyes with no real dammage (blurry or no vission) and no long term effects

One of the blackbelts at my old school was the proud owner of a detached retina after his 3 year old swung his finger near "daddy's" eye. If a 3 year old with little or no comparable strength can accomplish this, I would be hard pressed to believe that a full grown individual would not be able to meet or exceed this level of damage.



The only realy big guys I'v had trouble with as far as attitude are the Urban cowboys and country hicks...
The good news is that they are very stiff in nature and can hardley move in the tight wrangler jeans they wear


Camel toe has a way of slowing people down. Ha ha
Good input R-5

[James Kovacich]

An eyejab is best used as a setup, a flinch or distraction to create the opening for the punch, elbow groin shot wharever your comfortable with.
I've been eyejabbed while training and it hurts but its not a finising move. MIGHT be able to finish with it, but more realistic to use it as a set up. Its also one of the easier setups to use.

Shin kick, hell ya, foot stomp too but you better have something else to go with it.

I know a lot of arts beleive in the one punch finish but that was in another time.

[Master of Blades]

So does the whole kick to the nuts thing not work anymore? :confused:

[MartialArtist]

Some basics that I like to cover (of course there are variables)

For taller people: Attack low, get inside, bring them down (take-down, grappling, hitting thighs and knees)

For someone heavier: Attack low, use speed to your advantage, hit areas that hurt such as the thigh and not places like the chest.

[SRyuFighter]

I would look for an opening and go after him.

[Kenpo Yahoo]

How many people out there practice bobbing and weaving?
You obviously don't want to turn the fight into a kungfu movie where you are trying to block and parry all of your opponents strikes, but an understanding of such a fundamental boxing strategy would be of great use.

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo
How many people out there practice bobbing and weaving?
You obviously don't want to turn the fight into a kungfu movie where you are trying to block and parry all of your opponents strikes, but an understanding of such a fundamental boxing strategy would be of great use.

I teach bobbing and weaving along with footwork. If he is in a left lead, you step right, away from the power hand, vice versa for a right lead. Its not a long drawn out thing at all. Its fighting realistically for a real fight.

Anybody claiming a JKD or Jun Fan Gung-Fu background trains that way to answer directly to that question.

I prefer the right lead. Its heavily practiced in JKD and its a common stance for a BJJ fighter as well, both of which I'm experienced in. I'm going to attach a closeup pic for a common hand position for me just before the clinch. It is a little hard to see my right hand, but I'm pushing his left down while preparing to divert his right arm to cross over his left.

Note: its a way of practicing that I'm comfortable with. In a real fight what I practice will come out but in an order that is appropriate for the situation at hand.

[sweeper]

I might have mentioned this before but my brother had a detatched retna, he got hit in the face with a soccer ball. I know it doesn't take alot of force but at the same time I have been hit in the eyes with a finger jab and I even nailed a freind in the eye with my thumb on a short cross, both of us are fine. You may detach a retna with relativly little power but you may not and you can't count on it.. Also a detatched retna isn't incredably painfull so if you just hit one eye they might not know what happened and they may continue to fight.

As to the joint lock thing, I'm realy bad at pulling them off and yeah I would only do it if it fell into my hands, but what I realy mean is I wouldn't go for the kill so to speak, I would be looking for the least brutal looking method have incopacitating my opponant.

In a dance club or at a football game you might not have room for much footwork or bobing, you might and of course that would always be nice, but you might not.

[Zepp]

Originally posted by Master of Blades
So does the whole kick to the nuts thing not work anymore? :confused:

The pain from a shot to the groin isn't instantaneous, and if someone's been hit there before (like those of us with younger siblings), the pain it does cause may not have much effect. I personally would choose attacking the knees over the groin.

[sweeper]

Hit hard enough and you can take someone out.. but it realy has to be a solid hit, when the person is driven to attack it might not desuade them, but on the otherhand they may desided you arne't worth it.

[bart]

In a niteclub or a spectator event, the last thing that you want to do is attract attention. You don't want to bob and weave without a punch to bob or weave from. Punchless bobbing and weaving attracts attention from the opponent's friends and from security, or even cheap shotters from the gallery. Pulling out a gun or a knife will attract attention too. That's to be avoided. In CA it's a good way to get into the inmate dating scene anyway. Pulling out
a knife or a gun can raise something from a little brawl to a killing.

Getting your ass kicked ain't worth killing someone over.

The next thing is that you don't want to grapple if you can avoid it. Where the crowd is thick you want to end things quickly. If you go to the ground for the most part you WILL get stomped and most of the time the opponents friends WILL kick you and they don't care about kicking their friend in an effort to get you. Cheap shotters WILL hit and kick you for fun, and you'll be rollling around on broken glass or blacktop, puke or even urine. This is especially true if you are the security at a concert or niteclub.

A big guy needs room to swing for the most part. The big guys that don't need room to swing you should run from. They know what you do and better and they've got more meat behind their punches. If you can't run, then control balance, through trapping or breathing through short punches to the ribs underneath where the armpits are and slightly to the front or the point right underneath the sternum. These can control breathing and won't cause any permanent damage. Unless you have practice, don't go for a knockout punch or eyestrike to the face. It's high up on tall guys and you're exposed when you do it. Focus on what you've got. Look at targets that are easily reachable. Knees, solar plexus, stomach, bladder, groin, elbows, arms, neck. Hit those targets with the edge of the knuckles, or some other narrow surface and not a flat fist.

As for striking to the groin, the pain is not immediate, and most guys can keep going for a few seconds after being hit. That few seconds can be filled with quite a few punches aimed at you. Also after a few hits to the groin in the same fight, it stops getting any worse for the most part and it loses effect on them.

Don't let him grab you. If you do that, big guys are strong, in my case usually they're stronger than me. If they grab you, you have no choice but to do moves that attract attention. Also they often have longer reach and can hold onto you and hit you while you can't hit them back in the trunk or head with your arms.

Another thing at these places is drugs. A lot of big guys that I've had to deal with have been high on something. They don't feel pain the same way if they even feel it at all. They also don't care too much about being disfigured, even if you show them the skin, hair, or body art. With those guys, you have to control motion or breathing. That means broken bones, dislocations, chokeouts, or knockouts.

There's always more to it of course, but in my experience these are some guidelines. I think the bouncer guys Kenpo Yahoo was going to talk to my share some of my opinions.

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo
Unfortunately, the person that percieved this is beligerant and a little bit bigger than you.

This is the scenario we always train for since people smaller & weaker than yourself don’t normally attack you.



Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo
Assuming that you have no alternative but to fight, formulate a good S&T approach to surviving/evading/defeating your opponent in this confrontation. Please don't assume total stupidity on the point of your attacker.
Since I'm about average height and weight, by bigger I mean 6 foot plus and 200-260lbs

These are the basic kind of things we work on.
If you want to see what we actually do here is a website for our dojo in Poland. This was a seminar so the techniques in the mpegs you will see are done rather slowly and were done for teaching and explanation purposes only. The actual techniques are done much quicker without any pauses.
http://www.kempo.org.pl/ramka.html
It's in Polish. You'll need to go to the section called "GALERIA" to see the mpegs.

The Okinawan gentleman is my teacher and he weighs roughly 160 lbs., the other gentleman you see is about 190~210lbs. and was a former member of the Polish Olympic Judo team.

[James Kovacich]

Bart, you slightly misunderstood. I myself, nor would I expect a student of mine to start bobbing and weaving before a fight.

Bobbing and weaving, footwork, trapping, strikes and kicks are just single tools that are a part of the "whole" when practiced together make for a difficult opponent since "most" people aren't that skilled.

I've trained with a couple wing chun guys that used come in to train with my Sifu here in the bay area so I have an idea of your approach.

But it is my opinion if the punches start flying and you are the smaller one, bobbing and weaving is a positive.

[bart]

But it is my opinion if the punches start flying and you are the smaller one, bobbing and weaving is a positive.

I agree wholeheartedly.

To clarify myself, I've seen a few situations where people bobbed and weaved, before any punches were thrown. That was detrimental and somewhat comical. It also attracted a lot of attention.

Bobbing and weaving is positive once there are punches or strikes to avoid.

[Sanddragon]

Originally posted by Rich Parsons
Gee, since I am 6'3" and about 275 lbs, I guess I do not fit into the bigger but the huge catagory? :D

Seriously, I seem to have the exact opposite problem. That little guy that seems to think that buy running into me and pretending to be offended it allows him to swing.

So, if I swing first I am the bad guy for beating up the little guy.

If I wait I could get hurt.

Any recommendations on what should be done. Many times, the chance to offer to buy a beer is not even a possiblility for these guys go from jerk to fight in 0.6 seconds. :(


Curious about your input :confused:

I have to agree with Rich here, being of almost the exact same size, why is it that so many little guys seem to feel that they can bump into to us and use the napoleon complex that they suffer from and take the first swing?

I also agree you usually never have the chance to say oh excuse me let buy you a beer because they are usually out to prove something by hitting someone larger.

As for my solution Rich, I have tried to avoid and then restrain my opponent when possible. Otherwise I would just deal with it the best and least damaging way I possibly could.

[bart]

Alot of guys with that particular complex have never really had their asses kicked. They depend alot on other people breaking it up or the big guy having the ability to restrain himself. It's an ego thing and unfortunately "the system" supports it.

Also big guys have a similar style of complex where some of them don't like to be told anything by somebody smaller. Another ego situation.

[Skarbromantis]

Big guys are only big, when faced head on, turn a big guy to the side and he is not as big anymore, footwork, get to his side, strike the sides of the knees, kidneys, ribs, control the arm, side of the neck, temple, fake high to strike low, attack low to strike high, forget the chest and belly, or front of the head, stick to the side, practise yor footwork.

Skard1

[bob919]

angainst tall heavy people aim for their knees most tall heavy people have weak knees pound at them when he goes down you can kick him or walk away actually taller people's balls are in a shorter persons punching range thi is why being tall isn't always a good thing