Decision regarding pricey membership

[garrisons2]

Hi all, I'm looking for some insight/opinions, I'm a middle aged male who has been going to a Chicago area TKD for a year now. The master pushed hard that they only have "Black Belt" and "Instructor" programs, so you have to sign up for 3 or 5 years. After my 2 month period, I basically told him I like what I'm doing and find the instruction and camradery rewarding, but there is no way I could commit to 3 yr period, the "compromise" was $2K cash upfront for a one year period, which is roughly equivalent to the monthly fee. From my perspective, this is on the higher end of the scale. I don't mind paying extra for quality, but only to a point. I got a letter informing me that my options were to sign up for the "Black Belt" program at 200 /mth or the remaining 4 years of the "instructor" program for $179. I'm bewildered that parents could possibly commit small kids to such a long term program and dish out that kind of cash. I'd like to believe that the instruction is superior to your typical McDojangs and have visited a couple. A couple days a week I have the opportunity to go to the lunch time session, which is typically more robust as there are usually 4 or more Black Belts in it and one for each adult. there are rarely kids accept of course in the summer and the 1 hr session is generally much tougher than the evening session. My question for the forum, do you think that the fee's requested are a bit off the high end of the scale and that the commitment period is as well? thanks by the way attached is a link to what I think is one of the cooler TKD videos

http://www.sangmootaekwondo.com/video/Taekwondoway.WMV

[arnisador]

You have other options in the Chicago area...I'd keep looking.

[Kacey]

I don't know what prices are in Chicago - but $179 or $200 / month seem steep to me, and requiring that type of commitment is concerning to me. I'd check around and see what other dojangs charge and how you like them.

[jks9199]

You've got lots of other options in your area. I bet (actually, I'm pretty damn sure) that there are quite a few that don't require a contract, or two hundred bucks a month.

Pushing hard for contracts, payment up front... That all scares me. It makes me wonder how financially sound they are, among other things.

[ArmorOfGod]

wow.
That's a lot of money and a long contract.
Do your shopping now before you get in too deep. If I read you correctly, you have only been at that school for two months. That is a short time and now is a good time to see if there is a place that could make you happier regarding fees.
Make sure you call every school in the phone book and every ymca/community center.
Good luck and keep us updated on your situation.

AoG

[YoungMan]

Bottom line: I hate contracts. They have no place in martial arts. You practice because you want to, not because you are financially and legally obligated to give some instructor your money. Who knows where you'll be in 3 years. If what you have to offer is of value, students will come to you on their own and stay on their own, especially if the price is right.

[garrisons2]

Actually, I've been at this school for a year, with the initial 2 month sign up, now I have 2 months left in the 1 year thing that he didn't really want me to sign up for, like the product, don't like the price. The school has been around for 20+ yrs.

[Brian R. VanCise]

That is a lot per month but then Chicago is also very steep all around. I would look around really hard before I would ever sign a long term contract. Personally I just do not like contracts at all. Though I do understand that if someone is teaching full time they are looking to ensure their business viability. Still not my cup of tea. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon6.gif

[igillman]

$200 per month sounds pretty pricey. I am about an hour or so west of you (past Elgin) and we are $100 per month with a discount for the 2nd and 3rd person from the same family and then nothing extra for 4th, 5th etc...

[fireman00]

oooffaaa... I thought 85 bucks a month for a single person (cheaper for two and family membership) was a little steep. If he's pushing hard to get that kind of money up front I would be worried about the financial footing of the school. I'd be looking elsewhere.

[terryl965]

200 a month are you kidding me? I have sn programs out there abd contracts and I hate them both. I'm a school owner and not to blow my own horn but I'm a damm great one. U would never ask for someone to pay that much for classes and I would never ask anyone to make a contract for any amount of time.

I beleive people will stay for the right price and the training if you need a contract to keep people than it is not worth it plan and simple.

[IcemanSK]

I'm originally from the Chicago area & I've never heard a price that steep.

A wise friend of mine used to like a certain type of car. When I asked him why he didn't just buy it, he'd say, "It would make me happy, but it wouldn't make me $50,000 happy." $50K was the cost of the car.

You said you liked what you got from school. The question you need to ask yourself is, "Does it make me $200 a month happy?" If the answer is yes, it really doesn't matter what the rest of us think.

[granfire]

I can't comment on the price, I live in cheaps ville....I understand the overhead can be very different from area to area...so you have to decide, is it worth the 200 bucks...however, having been in martial Arts for about 4 years...a long term commitment of the proposed kind freaks me out. In the time I have been going, I had a car break down, I moved and was sick...granted, all that was off time I kept paying my dues...but on a yearly contract, thats do-able....besides, you are supposed to get a discount when you pay upfront....

Personally, I'd shop around...

[Kacey]

I'm originally from the Chicago area & I've never heard a price that steep.

A wise friend of mine used to like a certain type of car. When I asked him why he didn't just buy it, he'd say, "It would make me happy, but it wouldn't make me $50,000 happy." $50K was the cost of the car.

You said you liked what you got from school. The question you need to ask yourself is, "Does it make me $200 a month happy?" If the answer is yes, it really doesn't matter what the rest of us think.

This post - especially the bolded part - sums up everything nicely, I think. If it's worth it to you, then it's worth it; if not, start shopping around.

[Kwan Jang]

I'm going to give the other end of the spectrum in awnsers as far as school owners are concerned. My demographics and cost of operation are a lot lower than they are in Chicago, so I don't charge nearly as much. However, I honstly feel that the value and the quality of my service and product are more than worth those prices and then some. I'm sure that other instructors who don't feel the same are very honest people and feel that they should charge what they feel is the worth of their programs (LOL).

As far as contracts are concerned, if I am going to commit to my students, then I expect a comittment from them. I don't have the time or the energy to invest in someone who is not serious about their training, because I truly do commit to giving my all to them and helping them achieve the goals they have set. I do allow people up to one month free to try our school out and make sure that this is right for them and also right for us. If both parties agree that this is the right course of action for both sides, then they may enroll for a one year course. Like ALL contracts in the USA, there is a legal provision that if someone has a valid medical reason that they can't continue their training or if they move where they can't use the school, the contract is cancelled.

I use the first year as an extended trial course to see over a long period will someone be consistant in their training and in that time, as they learn what it's really about, they decide if becoming a black belt is part of the healthy and successful lifestyle that they want to commit to. If not, I shake their hand and wish them well. If they are willing to commit and have met the requirements (and just having the money or signing the contract is not the only or even the main criteria), then we enroll them into our black belt training program which is a three year commitment. It is NOT a guarantee that they will become black belts, but they are now getting the upgrade in the training to take them to that level.

Of course, when you run a full time business and you have payroll to meet, the financial guarantee is a real factor. But even if I were to win a $100,000,000 lottery tommorow, I would still do things the same way. This includes still teaching full time (though I admit that I would probably cut my hours at the school back to roughly 40/wk and actually take vacations) and if anything, I would probably raise my prices and more strongly enforce the policies for commitment from the students. Not because I am greedy (under said conditions, I would give all profits to my staff), but because without the financial stress or burden, I would be free (or have the guts) to fully implement how I think it should be done w/o any compromise.

[terryl965]

See I have to dis-agree a little here, kwan Jang. First off I have had students with me for 10-15 years no contracts, one individual only came one day a week for the forst three years and that was all he had time with. the second year he went to 6-8 days a month and now 12 years later he come on a regular basis 4-5 days a week. See in the beginning he was only able to give e 1 days between hoing to school being married and working he had very little time but love the art and the way I trought, in the second year his wife became pregnant and he was down to 2 classes a week so he had mor etime. Now he is vry successful and has the time to devote to his training. If I would have push the button he would have vanished from MA all together, I know this because we have had these types of converstations and he appreciated someone taking the time to understand that life sometimes has to come first and MA second.

Now he is better and has two wonderful daughters and a wife that has come full circle and he is a better person today for it. I guess my point is we never know what people are going though in there lifes to ask for a contract, all we can do is teach everyday and hope that we can make a difference enough that when they have the time to come train that they are there.

[JWLuiza]

See I have to dis-agree a little here, kwan Jang. First off I have had students with me for 10-15 years no contracts, one individual only came one day a week for the forst three years and that was all he had time with. the second year he went to 6-8 days a month and now 12 years later he come on a regular basis 4-5 days a week. See in the beginning he was only able to give e 1 days between hoing to school being married and working he had very little time but love the art and the way I trought, in the second year his wife became pregnant and he was down to 2 classes a week so he had mor etime. Now he is vry successful and has the time to devote to his training. If I would have push the button he would have vanished from MA all together, I know this because we have had these types of converstations and he appreciated someone taking the time to understand that life sometimes has to come first and MA second.

Now he is better and has two wonderful daughters and a wife that has come full circle and he is a better person today for it. I guess my point is we never know what people are going though in there lifes to ask for a contract, all we can do is teach everyday and hope that we can make a difference enough that when they have the time to come train that they are there.

I have to agree. I think 3-6 month contracts are the longest anyone should, within their right mind, sign. Who knows what life brings? I've been training for 17 years and have yet to sign one single contract. I've also had students come and go as they traverse through life, and while I am sad to see them go, I'm not going to force anyone down a path they don't want to be walking. I really feel the only contracts between an instructor and a student should be: When is payment due and how much is it? What equipment is allowed? Is the student allowed to use outside equipment? What are the promotion requirements?

[Andrew Green]

The prices are high, but if the classes and the facility are worth it, then they are worth it, nothing mroe too it.

Instructors have to sign leases, and have to support families, etc. I understand the need for a contract, from both sides. In most other industries it wouldn't seem that far fetched.

Although I don't like the long term ones, anything more then a year would raise a big red flag in my eyes.

But that's up too you, shop around if you like, stay if you like. Is what you are doing worth $200 / month? If pushed, would the owner give you a shorter term, or a lower rate? Things are occasionally negotiable, if you push the right buttons.

[garrisons2]

Excellent perspective, thank you for tha analogy

[Blindside]

I use the first year as an extended trial course to see over a long period will someone be consistant in their training and in that time, as they learn what it's really about, they decide if becoming a black belt is part of the healthy and successful lifestyle that they want to commit to. If not, I shake their hand and wish them well. If they are willing to commit and have met the requirements (and just having the money or signing the contract is not the only or even the main criteria), then we enroll them into our black belt training program which is a three year commitment. It is NOT a guarantee that they will become black belts, but they are now getting the upgrade in the training to take them to that level.


What percentage of students who sign up for the three year contract actually study the entire three year period? (Minus those who move or get medical exemptions.)

Lamont

[Kwan Jang]

I don't know the exact percentages off hand, but I can honestly say it is the majority. We have a very high retention rate and our quit rate is 3.17 percent for 2007, this figure includes those who move and drop for medical reasons. Terry, if there is valid reasons for someone with challenges in life who will put in the neccesary time and effort, I will work with them. However, I feel that if someone isn't serious about making a commitment to their training, my time and energy is better spent with the ones who are. Also, besides financial stability for the school, knowing that they have a reponsibility in keeping their commitment via the contract helps to keep people on task to accomplishing their goals when life throws those curve balls at them.

[SageGhost83]

Bottom line: I hate contracts. They have no place in martial arts. You practice because you want to, not because you are financially and legally obligated to give some instructor your money. Who knows where you'll be in 3 years. If what you have to offer is of value, students will come to you on their own and stay on their own, especially if the price is right.

I am with you all the way on that one, YoungMan. There are many schools that abuse the contract mechanism and a lot of things can and will change in three years. I understand why someone would use a contract mechanism, but I still don't agree with it. I think that if what you are teaching is truly worthwhile and you are a good teacher, then you won't have to find and retain students - they will seek you out on their own and they will stay for the long haul.

[Jade Tigress]

I'm in the Chicago area (northwest suburbs) and that's very steep IMO, plus the contract is unreasonable.

I train Kung Fu for 100 a month, no contract. My son previously trained TKD for 125 a month with a one year contract. Both of those facilities are very nice with top notch instruction.

Even though TKD schools are more contract prone than other arts (from what I've seen), the requirements you describe don't sit right. Have you visited other schools to get a comparison? There is so much available in our area, check out some other options before making such a long-term, pricey commitment.

[KEritano]

The cost and length of the contact does seem rather excessive. Yet, other than training, what else do you get? How many times a week can you train, do you get uniforms and equipment, do you have to pay testing fees? Do you receive free seminars, private lessons? Are all breaking materials provided? Do the facilities have full lockers and showers?

$200/month may be reasonable if it includes more than just 3x/week group training/

[YoungMan]

For $200 a month, I'd better get limo service to and from class, sauna, and massage services.

[Jade Tigress]

The cost and length of the contact does seem rather excessive. Yet, other than training, what else do you get? How many times a week can you train, do you get uniforms and equipment, do you have to pay testing fees? Do you receive free seminars, private lessons? Are all breaking materials provided? Do the facilities have full lockers and showers?

$200/month may be reasonable if it includes more than just 3x/week group training/


These are good points. What else do you fees include?

Obviously, if you felt you were getting your money's worth, and didn't have concerns about contract length, you wouldn't have given posting your question a thought.

Do YOU feel it's too expensive? Can you see yourself making a 3-5 commitment? What if, God forbid, you become ill, or get injured, or lose your job, or any number of things that could effect your ability to train or pay for classes? Will they extend, or suspend, the contract?

Ultimately, the decision is yours, but before making your decision, explore your options. That way, if you do decide this is the best place for you, you won't have any regrets once locked into it.

[terryl965]

For $200 a month, I'd better get limo service to and from class, sauna, and massage services.

With the Bar fully stocked

[jks9199]

The cost and length of the contact does seem rather excessive. Yet, other than training, what else do you get? How many times a week can you train, do you get uniforms and equipment, do you have to pay testing fees? Do you receive free seminars, private lessons? Are all breaking materials provided? Do the facilities have full lockers and showers?

$200/month may be reasonable if it includes more than just 3x/week group training/
This is a good point.

If the $200 a month includes something like a gym membership, access to a personal trainer or some "free" private lessons each week, or some other extras that offset the steep price, it's more reasonable. But the lengthy, hard sell contract still worries me. What outs are there if you move, or get fired? I know of several cases where someone ended up being transferred in their job, and still paying for a gym membership or martial arts contract in a different state after they moved...

[terryl965]

This is a good point.

If the $200 a month includes something like a gym membership, access to a personal trainer or some "free" private lessons each week, or some other extras that offset the steep price, it's more reasonable. But the lengthy, hard sell contract still worries me. What outs are there if you move, or get fired? I know of several cases where someone ended up being transferred in their job, and still paying for a gym membership or martial arts contract in a different state after they moved...


The price is the price it is that contract that kills me. If they are good and the quality is great you do not need contracts they will stay.

[jim777]

I recently checked out a number of schools in Manhattan for myself and some work colleagues, and we found a number of great schools in varied styles. None came anywhere near 200 a month, though one was 145 (Aikido). None came anywhere near 3 to 5 year contracts either, though many were a full year. And we didn't get a group discount anywhere, either. I think you are on the absolute high side for both monthly billing and length of contract. I personally think both would scare me off.

But, as has been said, if you really feel this is the place for you, then its the place for you. If it isn't, well, there's always the Seido school on West Belmont ;)

[DArnold]

Usually beginners are more apt at decerning crap than those indoctrinated.

If it looks like crap...
If it smells like crap...

Then...

[Blindside]

My question for the forum, do you think that the fee's requested are a bit off the high end of the scale and that the commitment period is as well?

Yes I think the fee is high and the commitment period is ridiculous. I've never had to sign a contract and I've never had to pay more than $100 per month.

At that rate ($200) I would expect unlimited group sessions and at least a one hour private lesson per week. But martial arts is one of those weird hobbies/lifestyles/whatever that the general market is fairly uneducated about and price controls through competition don't really exist.

Lamont

[granfire]

For $200 a month, I'd better get limo service to and from class, sauna, and massage services.

What, no lap dance?!

[SageGhost83]

Usually beginners are more apt at decerning crap than those indoctrinated.

If it looks like crap...
If it smells like crap...

Then...

Very good point, my friend.

[myusername]

Wow that price sounds very scary! I live in the UK and I currently pay £32 a month for my Taekwondo and I'm allowed to train 6 nights a week if I wanted to. $200 would equate to approximately £100 in British pounds so thats a lot lot more. I don't have to sign a contract either.

I'm guessing things may be different in the USA regarding this but surely prices like that would prevent the average person enjoying Martial Arts? I know I would never be able to commit to those prices especially over such a long time frame.

In your position I would have a good shop around and see what else is available. I'd take up the offers of free trials in other schools before making a final decision. Ultimately though if it turns out to be the best school in the area and you can afford it then sign up but physically do the research first by sampling the alternatives.

It might work out cheaper to emigrate to the UK and join my class!!!

[HelloKitty]

If you are here posting and asking other people's opinion, so you are not convinced at all about the price and the contract.

Humble opinion here, it's too expensive and the contract seems too long and a lot of things can happen in such period. And be careful. I've seen contracts for 3 or more years (these "black belt programs") you can't finish even if you have a severe injury, you are pregnant, lose your job, etc. having to (highly) pay for belt testing and being mandatory to buy (at expensive prices) all your equipment to your instructors, etc etc ETC!

I'd really look for another place. TKD is very popular, you are in a big place and you'll find a good reasonable school for sure.

Good luck!

[IcemanSK]

Can you give us an update on what you decided to do?

[garrisons2]

Hi all, I decided to re-up, despite the relatively higher cost. Factors which weighed in this decision were as follows:

1. Proximity to work allowing me to go at lunch with principally adults, 50/50 mix of BB and colored belts
2. It makes me $200/mth "happy", per the previous analogy, thank you
3. I believe that the training is better than the few dojangs I have viewed
4. I like the people I work out with

Thanks everyone for their input

[granfire]

best of luck to you!

[ditn]

Dam im lucky then,i pay 130 euro a Year 3trainings/week and its really quality
training with a trainer who puts everything in it for his students

[jks9199]

Hi all, I decided to re-up, despite the relatively higher cost. Factors which weighed in this decision were as follows:

1. Proximity to work allowing me to go at lunch with principally adults, 50/50 mix of BB and colored belts
2. It makes me $200/mth "happy", per the previous analogy, thank you
3. I believe that the training is better than the few dojangs I have viewed
4. I like the people I work out with

Thanks everyone for their input

And if that's the case -- that's all that matters!

Good luck & good training!

[Kacey]

And if that's the case -- that's all that matters!

Good luck & good training!
I agree - as long as you're happy with it, that's the important part!

[Laurentkd]

I agree - as long as you're happy with it, that's the important part!

ditto! Keep us posted on your training (it's always fun to hear!)

[IcemanSK]

Hi all, I decided to re-up, despite the relatively higher cost. Factors which weighed in this decision were as follows:

1. Proximity to work allowing me to go at lunch with principally adults, 50/50 mix of BB and colored belts
2. It makes me $200/mth "happy", per the previous analogy, thank you
3. I believe that the training is better than the few dojangs I have viewed
4. I like the people I work out with

Thanks everyone for their input

I'm glad you have decided to stay in a place that works for you. You've got 4 great reasons to be there. That is excellent!

[myusername]

Hi all, I decided to re-up, despite the relatively higher cost. Factors which weighed in this decision were as follows:

1. Proximity to work allowing me to go at lunch with principally adults, 50/50 mix of BB and colored belts
2. It makes me $200/mth "happy", per the previous analogy, thank you
3. I believe that the training is better than the few dojangs I have viewed
4. I like the people I work out with

Thanks everyone for their input

Sounds like 4 very good reasons and I'm sure you have made the right choice for your needs. Good luck with your training.

[terryl965]

Hi all, I decided to re-up, despite the relatively higher cost. Factors which weighed in this decision were as follows:

1. Proximity to work allowing me to go at lunch with principally adults, 50/50 mix of BB and colored belts
2. It makes me $200/mth "happy", per the previous analogy, thank you
3. I believe that the training is better than the few dojangs I have viewed
4. I like the people I work out with

Thanks everyone for their input

See you was able to justify the high cost so best of luck to you.