A friendly hello

[A.R.K.]

Hello and greetings my friends,

A new poster on another site refered me here. Very nice site :) Looking forward to getting to know many of you here and hopefully learning many new things. I am the Soke of Zhao Dai Wei and have been blessed to have an extensive training background. Hopefully I will be able to offer insight and helpful information to fellow posters here as well as receive.

Thank you in advance for the opportunity to share.

With warmest regards,

ZDW

[Bob Hubbard]

Welcome. :)

Could you tell us a bit about your style?

:asian:

[MartialArtist]

we could always use more insight

[A.R.K.]

If you will simply allow me to cut and paste from my site it will save me a bit of typing .

Zhao Dai Wei/CQDT is an internationally recognized SYSTEM of hand-to-hand, hand-held, edged weapon and firearm tactics and techniques. Traditional Martial Arts and Karate styles are fine for exercise, discipline and conditioning, however, the sport versions of these Arts rely heavily on refined motor skills and flashy Hollywood style maneuvers that take a long time to master but yet would probably never be used successfully in an actual life and death struggle.

Zhao Dai Wei is not a Martial Art Style, it is a SYSTEM based on the medical anatomy and physiology of the human body. It stresses gross motor skills and automatic responses to stress situations.

It comprises strikes, punches and kicks that are specifically designed for close quarters combat. Additionally, ground fighting, grappling, joint locks/manipulation, takedowns, sweeps, escapes, disarms and Dim Mak pressure points are intensely covered by hands on mat time. Weapons drills and tactics are covered in-depth with regards to baton, tonfa, knife and firearms.

Training sessions are intense and focus not on 'point sparring' but winning a confrontation by bringing it to a quick, specific and direct conclusion.

This system is based on the 97/3 rule and training is geared towards confrontations with 3% individuals. Techniques are easily remembered and training is scenerio based.

Zhao Dai Wei has been described as brutal, simple and devastatingly effective.

Zhao Dai Wei has been recognized by the United States of America Martial Arts Dan Registry, the Korean Yudo & Hapkido Association, The World Head of Society, The World Organizer of Martial Arts, The Independant Martial Arts Federation, The Unified Sokeship Association International, World Goshin Kaikan Federation, Martial Arts Association - International, World Agni Kempo Organization, International Combat Martial Arts Unions Assn. and the Agni Kickboxing Organization of Iran.

These techniques have been lawfully used in the performance of official duties to control and/or subdue violent felons and to protect the user and innocent bystanders from bodily harm. They have been used hundreds of times by the author/system founder and students alike.

They have been taught to Military, Law Enforcement, Corrections, Executive Protection Agents as well as private citizens.

The Zhao Dai Wei system is not designed around tournements and point sparring. It is designed for street survival.

For familiarity purposes, and for the student's hard earned recognition a rank structure has been instituted into the system. This is composed of five kyu's [ranks below Black Belt]. In addition, there are ten Dan rankings [Black Belt Degrees], progressing from Shodan to Judan.


After earning my Hachidan in Pangai-noon and my Godan in Shuri-Te I spent the better part of a decade developing the system into what it has become today. I have been very blessed to have many fine Grandmasters assist me both in development as well as international recognition. It has truly been a dream come true for me and something that I one day desire to pass to my son.

Again, wonderful site. I look forward to participating in many discussions. Thank you for your welcome.

ZDW

[Jill666]

I visited your homepage & read your profile- welcome. your experiences should make for interesting reading (informative too).

Enjoy!:asian:

[Matt Stone]

It is nice to make your acquaintence. I am confused, however.

You said -


Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei
Traditional Martial Arts and Karate styles are fine for exercise, discipline and conditioning, however, the sport versions of these Arts rely heavily on refined motor skills and flashy Hollywood style maneuvers that take a long time to master but yet would probably never be used successfully in an actual life and death struggle.

Zhao Dai Wei is not a Martial Art Style, it is a SYSTEM based on the medical anatomy and physiology of the human body. It stresses gross motor skills and automatic responses to stress situations.

It comprises strikes, punches and kicks that are specifically designed for close quarters combat. Additionally, ground fighting, grappling, joint locks/manipulation, takedowns, sweeps, escapes, disarms and Dim Mak pressure points are intensely covered by hands on mat time. Weapons drills and tactics are covered in-depth with regards to baton, tonfa, knife and firearms.

Then you say -


After earning my Hachidan in Pangai-noon and my Godan in Shuri-Te I spent the better part of a decade developing the system into what it has become today.

So your training and background are in traditional systems, the same systems you claim are no good for "real" combat.

I'm confused. :confused:

Additionally, and I don't mean to nitpick overly much, you have people listed as holding Japanese titled ranks in non-Japanese arts; numbered titles for belt ranks are misused (i.e. "shichidan," the incorrect form for 7th degree); and one of the instructors subordinate to you is the founder of an organization that recognizes your "soke" title (another ambiguous term). Finally, what does "Ph.D MA " mean?

Please enlighten me. I mean no animosity from this, I just have some personal difficulties with the lack of continuity and the apparent widespread application of "artisitic license" in the use of foreign language terminology (a pet peeve of mine).

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

[chufeng]

Zhao,

Are you acquaited with Soke Castro?

:asian:
chufeng

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by chufeng
Zhao,

Are you acquaited with Soke Castro?

:asian:
chufeng


Oooouch!

[RyuShiKan]

Just a few questions:

First: What is shuri te? I know some people include certain systems in the Shuri Te linage but I have never heard of it reffered to as an art all it’s own.........Mainly because it isn’t.

Second: 8th dan in Pangai-noon……..who did you study with and who issued your 8th dan?


Third: Your use of the Japanese word Soke :rolleyes: is inaccurate. Quite frankly I find every westerner that uses the term Soke :rolleyes: to be a joke.
Read the following and it will give you a better understanding of the word and it’s usage and you will also see how ridiculous it is for you to use it.

Just in case you wanted to know what the word Soke really means........
Soke:
Historical Incarnations of a Title and its Entitlements
by William M. Bodiford
Who or what is a soke? If Internet websites can be believed, in the English-speaking world the Japanese word soke has become a title for individuals who claim to be "great grandmasters" or "founders" of martial arts.1 Surprisingly, however, the term is not explained in recent English-language dictionaries of martial arts directed toward general readers, nor in the more authoritative books about Japanese martial culture.2 Apparently this very obscurity provides commercial advantage when it is invoked in a competitive marketplace crowded with instructors who promote themselves not just as high-ranking black belts, but as masters or even grandmasters. This English-language usage stands in stark contrast to the connotations of the word soke in Japan where, if it is used at all, it strongly implies loyalty to existing schools, deference to ancestral authority, and conservative adherence to traditional forms. Despite what many seem to believe in the West, as a Japanese word soke has never meant "founder," nor does it mean "grandmaster."


Confusion over the word soke, however, is not confined to people who lack Japanese-language skills; it exists in Japan as well. These misunderstandings arise because in premodern and modern Japan the term represents different (yet related) meanings and connotations depending on the diverse contexts in which it appears. We can distinguish several different patterns of usage associated with the term soke throughout Japanese history.3 For this reason, when describing soke in English (or, rather, when arguing about its meaning) it is useful first to chronicle the many ways that this word has been used in the historical record. Then one can better evaluate the ways that this term has been conceptualized by modern writers and applied (or misapplied) in contemporary situations.

Soke originated as a Chinese word (Mandarin zongjia) with strong familial and religious connotations. Etymologically it is written with glyphs indicating a family that performs ancestor rites. In Chinese texts it designates either the members of a household belonging to the same clan or the main lineage within an extended clan, the head of which was responsible for maintaining the ancestral temple on behalf of the entire clan organization. In Japanese texts as well, soke always implied a familial relationship replete with filial duties. Japanese use of this word was not limited to consanguineous contexts, though, since many kinds of social relationships were organized around pseudo-familial models. Religious societies, commercial enterprises, and teaching organizations all employed familial vocabulary and observed rites of familial etiquette. In these contexts, the term soke often implied exclusivity and commercial privilege, with less emphasis on formal religious duties.

For most of early Japanese history the privileges of power, wealth, and civilization were controlled exclusively by the court, the aristocrats, and the Buddhist clergy, all three of which reinforced one another in mutual dependence. As Buddhist clerics developed their combined exoteric-esoteric (ken-mitsu) form of tantra, they gave rise to a shared "culture of secret transmission" (Stone, 97-152). In other words, Buddhist pedagogical systems in which tantric rituals were taught via oral initiations (kuden) available only to members of exclusive master-disciple lineages became the normative teaching method across elite society (Nishiyama 1982b, 146-147). Within this culture, the arts of civilization prized most by wealthy nobles became the exclusive property of certain families. For example, the Nijo and Reizei branches of the aristocratic Fujiwara family each taught and maintained control over mutually exclusive systems of initiation into the mysteries of Japanese poetics (waka). Lower down on the economic ladder, designated merchant families exercised exclusive commercial control over the production and distribution of certain types of manufactured goods used by aristocrats, such as extravagant ceramics (for example, raku ware; Nishiyama 1982b, 51). Those families maintained their hereditary monopolies through the protection and patronage of local nobles or of the court.

These families operated much like corporate entities in which many affiliated kinship groups functioned in unison. Among the members of the united kinship groups only the individual successor--usually the oldest son--of the current family head received full initiation into the secrets of the family craft. Even if proper male progeny did not exist, economic necessity demanded that the main family line always continue since hereditary authority rested with that family alone. Whenever required, therefore, another male from one of the affiliated groups would be brought in and designated as heir to succeed the head of the family. The heir, whether related by blood or adopted, was responsible for maintaining the unity of the corporate families, maintaining their commercial monopoly, and maintaining their good relations with their patrons. Most of all he was responsible for preserving the secret texts, special tools, and knowledge of the oral initiations that constituted his family's exclusive lore. The legitimate possessors of that exclusive lore, both the main family itself as a multi-generational entity, and the individual current head of the family were called the soke. Use of this term was extremely limited, however, until after the establishment of the Tokugawa peace in 1603 provided the conditions for the development of new, more elaborate systems of familial privilege throughout the land.

During the Tokugawa period (1603-1868) of Japanese history, especially during the eighteenth century, many new types of artistic and cultural activities came under the domination of families that exercised proprietary authority over the performance of those arts and endeavors by others. These new familial lineages, which essentially operated as commercial guilds, referred to themselves as soke. The leading expert on this subject is a Japanese scholar named Nishiyama Matsunosuke. Early in his career, Nishiyama wrote two seminal studies of soke families and the ways they exercised their authority during this period of Japanese history: Iemoto monogatari (Iemoto Stories, 1956; reprinted as Nishiyama 1982a) and Iemoto no kenkyu (Researches in the Iemoto System, 1960; reprinted as Nishiyama 1982b).4 Although Nishiyama settled on the term iemoto, in the Tokugawa-period texts he studied the words iemoto and soke were used interchangeably, without any distinction in meaning (Nishiyama 1982b, 15). Both words were used to refer to the main lineage that asserted proprietary authority over a commercial guild or to refer to the person who had attained full initiation as the current legitimate head of that lineage.

Nishiyama cites several factors that contributed to the development of familial lineages (i.e., soke) as commercial guilds. The Tokugawa regime placed governmental authority in the hands of an upper echelon of warrior families who maintained their positions of power through assertions of hereditary privilege and attempts to enforce rigid codes of social distinctions. These new warrior elites readily accepted similar assertions of familial authority over the codification and teaching of artistic endeavors (Nishiyama 1982b, 91-92). Moreover, the warrior rulers patronized many new performative arts and forms of amusement that had developed independently from and, thus, outside the control of the old aristocratic families. It was the teachers of these new amusements--arts such as tea ceremony (chanoyu), flower arranging (ikebana), chess (shogi), Noh theater, verse (haikai), special forms of music and dance, and so forth--that most quickly asserted familial control over their teaching and over their performance by others (Nishiyama 1982b, 135-140). Finally, the long period of peace produced many unemployed former warriors (ronin) who could seek employment as junior instructors in these guilds; at the same time, the end of incessant warfare promoted the economic prosperity that enabled townsmen and rural landowners to amass surplus wealth that they could spend as pupils of these arts.

The existence of a network of junior instructors (i.e., natori) who taught in the name of the soke is a crucial feature that distinguished Tokugawa-period soke families from their earlier counterparts (Nishiyama 1982b, 106). During the Tokugawa period, instruction in the special skills associated with a particular artistic endeavor was marketed through networks of branch instructors who paid royalties and license fees to the soke and who were organized into a pyramid-like hierarchical structure with the soke on top. The soke asserted absolute authority over the branch instructors and indirect authority over their students by controlling what, how, and when subjects could be taught and by restricting access to the most advanced lore, to which the soke alone was privy. Nishiyama labeled the social structures associated with this type of exclusive familial control and networks of branch instructors the iemoto system (iemoto seido). He saw it as a unique feature of Japanese feudalism that exerted a strong influence over the development of many traditional Japanese arts even until modern times (Nishiyama 1982b, 20-21).

These Tokugawa-period artistic lineages can be likened to commercial guilds because they earned money from every single person who participated in their particular school's craft or art throughout the entire country. Nishiyama (1982b, 16) neatly summarizes the commercial rights (kenri) of these familial guilds as follows:

1. Rights regarding the techniques (waza) of the art, such as the right to keep it secret, the right to control how and when it is performed, and rights over the repertoire of its curriculum and its choreography (kata).

2. Rights over instructors (kyoju), over initiation rituals and documents (soden), and over the awarding of diplomas and licenses (menkyo).

3. The right to punish (chobatsu) and to expel (hamon) students.

4. The right to control uses of costumes, of stage names or artistic pseudonyms, and so forth.

5. The right to control facilities and special equipment or tools used in the art.

6. Exclusive rights to the monetary income and social status resulting from the preceding five items.

For almost every art or amusement patronized by the ruling elite, there existed only a limited number of these familial guilds, each one of which enforced the above rights over anyone who practiced that art throughout the entire kingdom.5 No one could legally perform a play, a song, a musical piece, or practice any other art in public without either joining the soke's school or paying fees for temporary permission (ichinichi soden). Enforcement of these exclusive rights enabled soke families to control huge populations of students across all strata of society. Nishiyama argues that from the middle of the eighteenth century these guilds provided a government-regulated medium for the distribution of cultural knowledge within which people assigned to different social classes (samurai of various ranks, townsmen, merchants, priests, wealthy farmers, rural warriors, etc.) could interact with one another on a near-equal footing (Nishiyama 1982b, 531; 1997, 204-208).

Nishiyama's research demonstrates that the near-monopoly control over the teaching of peaceful arts exercised by Tokugawa-period soke effectively prevented the proliferation of rival schools. In short, where soke existed, there were no new schools. The very creation of new schools repudiated any notion of soke authority (Nishiyama 1982b, 135-137). Seen in this light, it is obvious that the word soke in premodern Japanese documents could never be translated into English as "founder." The notion of "founder" is even less appropriate in modern Japan.

After 1868, when Japan became organized as a modern state, the government formally recognized the legal rights of soke (a.k.a. iemoto) families to control the copyright of all musical scores, theatrical plays, textbooks, and artistic works produced by members of their guilds (Nishiyama 1982b, 16). In this way, the terms soke and iemoto acquired legal definitions as designations for the modern representatives of the limited number of families who could provide historical documentation that they had controlled these kinds of commercial guilds during the Tokugawa period. To maintain their copyrights, the leaders of these families had to register with the government as legal entities. At the same time that they acquired copyrights, they lost their previous ability to restrict the teaching or performance of their arts by people from outside their guild. They became just one school or performance group among many. While they can restrict unauthorized use of their own name and their own historical resources, they have no legal power to inhibit competition. Today, as long as there is no copyright infringement, anyone can write new instructional guides to tea ceremony or any other traditional art. Anyone is free to devise new methods for practicing them.

Use of the term soke (or iemoto) in martial contexts is even more complex. Before 1868, soke families that were organized into the kinds of commercial guilds described above never controlled instruction in martial arts. This is the reason so many different lineages (ryuha) of martial arts existed in premodern Japan. The contrast between teaching organizations devoted to peaceful arts (such as tea ceremony, flower arranging, and so forth) and those concerned with martial arts could not be more stark. Instruction in any of the peaceful arts was available only from a small number of familial lineages, each one of which organized itself into a commercial guild with a network of affiliated branch instructors available throughout the land. On the other hand, there existed hundreds of different martial art lineages, the vast majority of which were confined to a single location.6 While many martial lineages were consanguineous (i.e., handed down from father to son), many others were not.

Nishiyama (1982b, 273-278) identifies several reasons why martial art lineages never developed into iemoto (a.k.a. soke) systems. Prior to the establishment of the Tokugawa peace, rapid acquisition of military prowess constituted the sine qua non of any system of martial instruction. An instructor who withheld instruction in the most advanced techniques as a family secret, as was the norm among soke who taught peaceful arts, could not have attracted students. For this reason, during the sixteenth century, military students usually attained full initiation rather quickly, after which they were free to teach all that they had learned to their own students. If anyone issued diplomas, they did so on their own authority, without having to pay license fees to any larger organization. After the Tokugawa regime imposed peace on the land, both older and new schools of martial instruction became more structured, more secretive, and developed more complex and time-consuming curriculums. Students who received diplomas no longer necessarily acquired independent rights to issue diplomas themselves.7 The ruling authorities also actively prevented any warrior groups or martial schools from developing organizational bonds across domain boundaries.8 Moreover, the rulers of each individual domain preferred to patronize only their own local martial systems, which could be kept under their own local control. Finally, in an age of peace it became practically impossible for any one martial lineage or group of lineages to demonstrate decisively their superiority over their rivals. Innovative teachers could (and did) devise new methods of martial training and establish new schools without having to risk lives to demonstrate their combat effectiveness.

Osano Jun (187-192) argues that the first martial art in Japan to adopt a true soke system was the Kodokan School of judo. Osano could be right. The Kodokan set the standards not just for members within one training hall in one location, but for all participants in judo throughout the nation. The Kodokan defined the art; it controlled licensing and instruction; and it established branch schools with instructors who maintained permanent affiliation with the headquarters. If the Kodokan does not recognize something as being "judo," then it is not judo. Therefore, there is no such thing as a new style of judo. All of these elements constitute essential characteristics of traditional soke organizations in Tokugawa-period Japan. In actual practice, however, no one ever refers to the Kodokan, or its current head, as the soke of judo.9 The term seems out of place with judo's emphasis on modernity. Having analyzing the term soke in this way, Osano also criticizes the present-day use of the soke label by some Japanese teachers who represent traditional martial art lineages (i.e., koryu). Osano asserts that such usage not only is incorrect but also reveals an ignorance of traditional Japanese culture.

Osano's strict historical understanding is probably too strict. He overlooks the legal and social changes in the status of soke that occurred after 1868. After Japan began to modernize, social critics denounced soke organizations as a disagreeable legacy of a feudal system based on hereditary privilege, which stifled innovation and restricted knowledge for the financial benefit of undeserving family heads who no longer possessed the skills of their ancestors (Nishiyama 1982c, 263-273). Soke organizations saw their networks of branch instructors wither as interest in traditional arts declined and former students broke away to found rival schools.10 Soon many traditional soke disappeared, especially in arts based on direct competition among participants such as Japanese chess (shogi) and in less well-known forms of dance and song. As more and more of these intangible cultural legacies disappeared, modern Japanese gradually developed a new appreciation for the soke families who had managed to preserve their own family traditions and teach them to new generations. Without the determination and persistence of the heirs of these families, direct knowledge of many traditional Japanese arts would have been lost.

Today one could argue that the historical differences between the heirs of Tokugawa-period family lineages which operated as commercial guilds (with the natori system) and the heirs of localized teaching lineages such as those associated with martial traditions are less significant than their modern similarities. In both cases the current successors remain the only legitimate sources for traditional forms of instruction in the arts of that lineage. In both cases the current successors have assumed responsibility for preserving the historical texts, special tools, unique skills, and specific lore that have been handed down within their own particular lineage. In both cases the current successors distinguish their traditional teachings from newly founded rivals by pointing out how their teachings remain faithful to the goals and forms taught by previous generations. Based on these similarities, many modern writers use the terms iemoto or soke as designations for the legitimate heir to any established main lineage. Used in reference to present-day representatives of traditional martial art lineages, therefore, the soke label properly denotes their roles as successors to and preservers of a particular historical and cultural legacy. It should not be interpreted as implying identification with a commercial network (as criticized by Osano) nor as being equivalent to "grandmaster" or "founder" (as mistakenly assumed by casual observers), and might best be translated simply as "head" or "headmaster."

Consider, for example, the case of Kashima-Shinryu (see Friday, Legacies of the Sword). In his books and articles, Seki Humitake, the current head of and nineteenth-generation successor to the Kashima- Shinryu lineage, uses the label soke as a designation for the Kunii family. He uses this term as a way of honoring the role the Kunii family played in preserving Kashima-Shinryu traditions. Down to the time of Seki's teacher, Kunii Zen'ya (1894-1966), Kashima-Shinryu forms of martial lore had been passed down consanguineously within the Kunii family from father to son from one generation to the next. Seki's modern use of the label soke simply acknowledges that legacy.11 In the writings of Kunii Zen'ya and in the traditional scrolls preserved within the Kunii family, however, the word soke cannot be found. Kunii Zen'ya never referred to himself or to his family as the soke of Kashima-Shinryu. He simply signed his name. In writing out copies of his family's old scrolls (these copies would be handed out as diplomas), though, he usually would add the words "Kunii-ke soden" before the title of each scroll. For example, if he copied an old scroll titled "Kenjutsu mokuroku" he would give it the title "Kunii-ke soden kenjutsu mokuroku." In this example, the original title simply means "fencing curriculum" while the longer version means "the fencing curriculum transmitted within the Kunii family." Used to represent this sense of "transmitted within a family," the term soke seems perfectly reasonable. It merely implies that the lore associated with this curriculum was taught exclusively within the Kunii familial lineage.

In concluding, it is difficult to condone the use of obscure Japanese terminology to describe American social practices for which perfectly acceptable English words already exist. One must struggle to imagine how any non-Japanese could call himself a "soke" in English except as a joke. At the same time it is also difficult to regard this term with any special reverence or to become overly troubled by its misuse among self-proclaimed "grandmasters" and "founders." During the Tokugawa period the word soke designated a commercial system of hereditary privilege that took advantage of the ignorance of ordinary people for financial gain. Perhaps teachers of commercial martial art schools in America who adopt the title soke for themselves are more historically accurate in their usage than they themselves realize.

[Jas0n]

Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei
Hello and greetings my friends,

A new poster on another site refered me here. Very nice site :) Looking forward to getting to know many of you here and hopefully learning many new things. I am the Soke of Zhao Dai Wei and have been blessed to have an extensive training background. Hopefully I will be able to offer insight and helpful information to fellow posters here as well as receive.

Thank you in advance for the opportunity to share.

With warmest regards,

ZDW Dave? If so this is glock!9
Good to see ya!:D

[Aegis]

Most of the technique pictures on that site come straight out of traditional martial arts, which you claim don't work. How exactly is this style different?

Also (don't know if it's been pointed out yet, but...) Zhao Dai Wei doesn't exactly sound Japanese, yet you use Japanese words like Soke and Judan freely...

[tshadowchaser]

I'll say welcome to our site. I hope you injoy your stay here.
AS you have already noticed many of our members ask whats on their mind and voice their opions openly.
This we do encourage provideing that it stays in the respectful area.
Please answere some of the points that have been brought up. I for one want to here your replys.

Tshadowchaser:asian:

[Matt Stone]

Just to qualify my stance here...

I have absolutely no personal qualms against a person for what art they study or how they study it. When I was younger, I was highly critical of people for practicing certain arts or training in certain ways. Age and experience have taught me to be a bit more mellow in my judgements of people.

However, having had experiences with people of questionable background and training (not that I am implying ZDW is of that particular cut of cloth), I have found one of the hallmarks of such people is their picking and choosing of terms, titles, etc., from multiple languages, as well as their membership in incredible numbers of organizations (oftentimes, such membership appears on the surface to be a mutually beneficial situation, since person A belongs to person B's group that grants person A some rank or title, and person B belongs to person A's group that does likewise). And almost universally, with the exception of one person (Don Angier), the title soke is a harbinger of questionability.

I have no personal agenda towards ZDW, just the same standard I apply to myself and everyone else - if you make a claim to something, simply be able to explain it. Whether your explanation is sufficient is another topic entirely.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

P.S. Should anyone wish to call me out on the same issues, I will gladly post my entire training background with every single skeleton I can find. Just want to make sure folks know where I stand.
:asian:

[Master of Blades]

:rofl: He just got here! You guys crack me up! :rofl:

Anyway, welcome and I hope you enjoy your stay lol Incase you hadnt already noticed were always up for a little heated "discussion" :D

Have fun :asian:

[Jas0n]

Originally posted by Master of Blades
:rofl: He just got here! You guys crack me up! :rofl:

Anyway, welcome and I hope you enjoy your stay lol Incase you hadnt already noticed were always up for a little heated "discussion" :D

Have fun :asian: I dont think he will feel so welcome....I certinaly wouldnt and am starting to wonder If I am even welcome....Geezzzz

[Master of Blades]

Originally posted by Jas0n
I dont think he will feel so welcome....I certinaly wouldnt and am starting to wonder If I am even welcome....Geezzzz

Awwwwwwwww...........You see what you guys did! You upset the little guy!!!! :o *hugs*


And I think I speak for everyone when I say EVERYONE is welcome.........even if you feel that no-one likes you then stick around and soon you will grow on everyone. Worked for me :D


And thats a manly *hugs* before anyone brings anything up :shrug:


:asian:

[Blindside]

I dont think he will feel so welcome....I certinaly wouldnt and am starting to wonder If I am even welcome....Geezzzz

Hi Jas0n,

It isn't that your friend isn't welcome, but essentially by the titles he is claiming he has designated himself as something of an authority in the martial arts world. What we are doing is the same thing that happens if you submitted a paper for peer review in a scientific journal. People will ask for your qualifications, previous publications, etc. While it may appear that your friend has done that, the problem is that few martial arts institutions are truly credible for the organization of new systems. Instead many represent groups of relatively unqualified people who have "created their own style" and jumped themself up in rank to "grandmaster" or "soke." Now these groups essentially try to justify their existence by making "councils" to grade the founders of other "new" arts. Several of the qualifications that ZDW posted raised red flags with those of us who know how the phony soke boards work. That is why there are so many people questioning him. Anyone coming onto a board with such a title should expect criticism, and should be able to back-up their lineage and sytem philosophy to a T.

On the other hand, you Jas0n came on this board and essentially said "hi, I'm a newbie" and you have received nothing but welcome. I guess another analogy would be to go onto a gun forum and say "Hi I'm Lamont, I invented this new caliber bullet that is better than anything on the market today." You would expect several outraged responses from those who can't even settle the differences between 9mm and .45 acp. You would also get "who the hell are you..." responses. The questions so far are very polite "who the hell are yous"....

Just to clarify why ZDW is drawing so much (polite) flak.

Lamont

[Jay Bell]

RyuShiKan,

What about Don Angier Soke of the Yanagi ryu ? :D

Very legit...and a Westerner.

[Bob Hubbard]

Doesn't GM. Hatsumi use 'soke' too? or is my memory faulty again? If so, is his usage within the info in the lengthy post above?


Guys, give the man some slack...sheesh....valid points, but he's made 2 posts and already gotten multiple folks jumping down his throat. Valid points were made, but ya gotta let folks come up for air before you pound them into submission.

The title says 'friendly discussion'...can mean debate, even arguement, but the key word is friendly.

Lets keep that in mind, k?

Danke.
:asian:

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Jay Bell
RyuShiKan,

What about Don Angier Soke of the Yanagi ryu ? :D

Very legit...and a Westerner.

Sorry, never heard of him.

Who is he?

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz

Guys, give the man some slack...sheesh....valid points, but he's made 2 posts and already gotten multiple folks jumping down his throat. Valid points were made, but ya gotta let folks come up for air before you pound them into submission.

The title says 'friendly discussion'...can mean debate, even arguement, but the key word is friendly.

Lets keep that in mind, k?


I have to agree with Blindside on this.



From Blindside:
It isn't that your friend isn't welcome, but essentially by the titles he is claiming he has designated himself as something of an authority in the martial arts world. What we are doing is the same thing that happens if you submitted a paper for peer review in a scientific journal. People will ask for your qualifications, previous publications, etc. While it may appear that your friend has done that, the problem is that few martial arts institutions are truly credible for the organization of new systems. Instead many represent groups of relatively unqualified people who have "created their own style" and jumped themself up in rank to "grandmaster" or "soke." Now these groups essentially try to justify their existence by making "councils" to grade the founders of other "new" arts. Several of the qualifications that ZDW posted raised red flags with those of us who know how the phony soke boards work. That is why there are so many people questioning him. Anyone coming onto a board with such a title should expect criticism, and should be able to back-up their lineage and sytem philosophy to a T.

On the other hand, you Jas0n came on this board and essentially said "hi, I'm a newbie" and you have received nothing but welcome. I guess another analogy would be to go onto a gun forum and say "Hi I'm Lamont, I invented this new caliber bullet that is better than anything on the market today." You would expect several outraged responses from those who can't even settle the differences between 9mm and .45 acp. You would also get "who the hell are you..." responses. The questions so far are very polite "who the hell are yous"....

[Jay Bell]

Bob,

Yes...and yes :D

To crunch down the content of "Soke" in the above article....it's a lineage situation. Something of tradition has been passed to you...and you are Japanese. Soke means 'Head of the Family'....not Grandmaster or Super-Master-Ultra-HeadMaster person.

Angier sensei is a special case. Yanagi ryu's previous Soke passed the ryuha to him after he relocated to California. If I recall correctly, Angier sensei explained that lineage and the like was never of much interest to him until after his teacher died.

[RyuShiKan]

I think the last section of this guys article/definition says it all:



In concluding, it is difficult to condone the use of obscure Japanese terminology to describe American social practices for which perfectly acceptable English words already exist. One must struggle to imagine how any non-Japanese could call himself a "soke" in English except as a joke. At the same time it is also difficult to regard this term with any special reverence or to become overly troubled by its misuse among self-proclaimed "grandmasters" and "founders." During the Tokugawa period the word soke designated a commercial system of hereditary privilege that took advantage of the ignorance of ordinary people for financial gain. Perhaps teachers of commercial martial art schools in America who adopt the title soke for themselves are more historically accurate in their usage than they themselves realize.

[Jay Bell]

Here's a link of an article that Don Angier wrote:

My Career in Yanagi-ryu Aiki Jujutsu (http://www.aikidojournal.com/articles/_article.asp?ArticleID=1067)

Wow...all those poor legitimate Soke in Japan are all out for money! :rolleyes:

That's stretching things a bit far. There are plenty of Soke of koryu bujutsu schools that use the title properly.

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Jay Bell

Wow...all those poor legitimate Soke in Japan are all out for money! :rolleyes:

That's stretching things a bit far. There are plenty of Soke of koryu bujutsu schools that use the title properly.

Maybe...maybe not. However, I have met several bogus Soke in Japan as well so being Japanese doesn't make one immune.

[jfarnsworth]

Originally posted by Master of Blades
And thats a manly *hugs* before anyone brings anything up :shrug::asian:

I'm glad you did clear that up because then I was really gonna start to wonder about you.:rofl:

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by Jas0n

I dont think he will feel so welcome....I certinaly wouldnt and am starting to wonder If I am even welcome....Geezzzz

Why would you wonder about your welcome, or anyone's for that matter? This is an open, public (though moderated) forum. Everyone, regardless of their opinion, art, etc., is welcome. Even complete loonies and bizarros (like me! :D ).

The only person I have ever heard of having an authentic claim to such a lofty title as soke was Don Angier. It was my understanding (and while I would hope to avoid a ninja flame war, perhaps someone from the X-kans can clarify this info) that Hatsumi didn't start using the title soke until long after he was famous for what he taught.

My personal bottom line is that I have some specific difficulties with people who get their ranking in art X from people outside of art X - how can they rank you if they don't practice/study the same art? If it was from an organization that taught the same standardized art as the organization the individual belonged to, then that wouldn't be so bad. But for organizations and associations to spring up whose only purpose seems to be the mutual granting of rather impressive though misused and misunderstood titles causes me some concern. I'm not trying to attack ZDW for this, just soliciting his explanation. If his explanation seems plausible, then fine. If not... :idunno:

He doesn't owe me a thing. I admit that openly and freely. However, making claims like his in public should be approached with some degree of skepticism. Our arts have enough trouble as it is maintaining legitimacy without people inflating their ranks and titles in order to draw students and income (and we all know that never happens, right?).

In Japan (of all places) it is actually considered a polite and recommended thing to ask a teacher for his credentials instead of just taking his/her word for it... I would think it would be a similar situation here in the US where we maintain the caveat of "buyer beware."

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

[Jay Bell]

Hatsumi sensei has always been called Soke....since he received his densho and maki from Takamatsu sensei.

I think the bottom line is that an enormous amount of individuals use the title incorrectly...and have no right to it. It seems to be the very "in" thing to do when founding your own art. There are, though, many individuals in (and one out) of Japan that are...and use the term as they should.

Asayama Ichiden ryu - Ozaki Kiyoshi
Daito ryu - Katsuyuki Kondo (Soke Dairi)
Hontai Yoshin ryu - Inoue Tsuyoshi
Ono-ha Itto ryu - Sasamori Takemi
Yagyu Shingan ryu - Muto Masao

etc etc...

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Jay Bell

I think the bottom line is that an enormous amount of individuals use the title incorrectly...and have no right to it. It seems to be the very "in" thing to do when founding your own art. There are, though, many individuals in (and one out) of Japan that are...and use the term as they should.

Asayama Ichiden ryu - Ozaki Kiyoshi
Daito ryu - Katsuyuki Kondo (Soke Dairi)
Hontai Yoshin ryu - Inoue Tsuyoshi
Ono-ha Itto ryu - Sasamori Takemi
Yagyu Shingan ryu - Muto Masao

etc etc...

Actually Meik Skoss was offered/awarded the top position (Sokeship ?) for Toda Ha BukoRyu but turned it down stating that he was moving to America and wanted the art to remain in Japan.
His skill is exceptional by the way.

[chufeng]

Jay,

Thank you for the "other side" of the argument...balance is a good thing...

I am not interested in questioning those who are legitimate...
but, HOW do I determine legitimacy?

I am concerned about those who would use a title inappropriately to further his own financial gain at the cost of dragging down all of the arts...

:asian:
chufeng

[RyuShiKan]

Chufeng,


I am sure if you read some of the bios by people claiming Soke-ness the usual red flags will start popping up.
They might seem very Castro-esque if you know what I mean;)

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by Jay Bell
Hatsumi sensei has always been called Soke....since he received his densho and maki from Takamatsu sensei.

I bow to what I would consider to be (hopefully) your better informed commentary. I will say, though, having been a wannabe follower of the ninja craze back in my school days (the only ninjutsu training available back then in my town was Robert Bussey's Ninja Academy - 'nuff said), and I can't recall Hatsumi being called anything but sensei for quite a long time... I admit though that my memory is fuzzy on when the soke title supplanted sensei as his public title...

Whatever.

I think the thing is that if a person has a legitimate tie to a title or position, supporting it wouldn't be much of a request to honor. On the other hand... :idunno:

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

[arnisador]

The Pangainoon derived from Uechi-ryu or the Pangai-noon from which Uechi-ryu is derived?

[RyuShiKan]

I got this from this website…http://www.usadr.iwarp.com/ just curious as to what it means.



UNDERSTAND, THE USADR IS NOT A RANK MILL. Documentation of initial training must be submitted. Our goal is to offer advancement for those that were stopped from advancement. Cost, school closed, instructor moved, or for any number of other reasons. You have already been trained and have attained limited ranking. As stated above, our purpose is to recognize that rank and give you the opportunity for further advancement, WITHOUT BREAKING THE BANK. You may have only a certificate from your school. If you want broader recognition, then this is your opportunity.


Sorry, I just read that and “dan factory” keeps coming to mind………….

I have seen people from dan factories sign up on martial BBs before in order to "recruit" new members (i.e. make money).

[A.R.K.]

Jason, thats ok my friend but I appreciate the back-up. I feel that perhaps some of the mildly hostile remarks/questions deal with issues within the individual poster that existed long before I ever posted here. That is fine, and I look forward to discussing things here. Good way to get the ball rolling so to speak. If I miss any particular element you will have to forgive me as quite a few things are on the table. I will address them as I recall them.

Yiliquan1,

I would perhaps respectfully suggest you reread my post, with objectivity. No disrespect was offered or mentioned to traditional systems or styles. The comment was on the 'sport' version of these systems. I work in a Maximum security Correctional Facility with felon to death row inmates. Sport karate i.e styles that teach point-sparring techniques and fancy, complicated techniques will get you seriously injured in these types of environments. Perhaps you disagree with this as is your right.

However I will offer two quick points for consideration. First, I have had over 200 uses-of-force against violent felons. I don't say this in a proud way, quite the contrary, with the amount of years I have had on the job these were incidents in which all of my non-force options were taken away BY the felon[s]. I was left no viable choice other than to use physical force to prevent injury/death to myself, other Deputies, other inmates or to prevent the individual from further harming themselves. Point-sparring or even full contact sparring cannot and will not prepare you for this type of environment in our society today. Competetions and tournements have rules and a referee therefore they do not fully take hold of a reality life/death situation. I say this not to diminish participants of such events, they are tough and well trained. But it does not take into account an individual who through drug use or psychotic affliction feels absoulutely no pain and has superhuman strength...and wants very much to kill you NOW! Which leads to my second point. Many fellow Deputies who were in trditional 'sport' versions have dramatically come to the realistic conclusion that they were unprepared for violent assaults. That is why they have sought me out for training.

Does this mean I'm special or invincible. No... it does not! I have not reinvented the wheel I have merely added a spoke. Which is the same thing a myriad of Martial Artists have done before me. I have lent my hand into it with the experiences that I have garnered in my life time. Between the military and LEO I have two decades of realworld hand-to-hand combat experience which I have needed to live to type this post today. Not dojo sparring, not refereed tournements but real life against real BG's. This concept may offend some here but so be it. I am not impressed with a 250 lbs UFC fighter that competes [not taking away from his talent,skill or heart] but I am impressed with the 120 lbs housewife that successfully defeats a would be rapist or the 170lbs Deputy that defeats an inmate attempting to shank him in the throat. This is MY venue...my arena.

My training in Pangai-noon, Shuri-Te, Judo, Ju Jitsu [small circle], Krav Maga and Chin Na has lend to my experience as have the LEO-only training courses that I have attended. My hope is that this clarifies what I consider 'sport' versions of karate. They are great for many people in many areanas. They inspire discipline and focus. They increase vitality and alertness. But they will not prepare an individual for what awaits behind the concrete walls of our correctional system or the concrete of the inner-city streets. With all due respect I will debate this with anyone that takes issue with it. There is a place for an aerial spinning back kick...in the ring, not in a 5 x 8 cell or balcony.

Numbered Dan titles differ from style to style in different parts of the world. Shichidan may not mean 7th Dan to you, but it does to many others.

As far as Dan rankings go, I think people worry about them too much in general. I cannot speak for all styles and systems but in general [the ones I am familiar with]there is essentially no new information learned after Shodan. Perhaps additional kata, but for the most part it is time in grade and teaching experience. Some systems have a long time in between grades and some not quite so long. It seems that the industry norm seems to be [in general] your current Dan in years to advance to the next higher. For example a 2nd to 3rd would be 2 years. Again this is a generality but I have seen many of the oldest organizations go by this guideline.

But it is ALL-subjective. Not just in this country but in the Orient perhaps more so. It is a sad fact that in certain styles if you are of Asian heritage you can buy a Dan, sometimes a very high Dan. And also if you are non-Asian you will pay thru the nose for a legitimate long over due advancement. I do not say this of the industry as a whole, but it has and does happen in both the West as well as the East. I don't buy into the mystical notion that the Orient has some monopoly or advantage over the rest of the world when it comes to Martial Arts. Many instructors in more traditional systems simply can't afford to advance to the next Dan. Some styles require you to fly over to the home country and test. That is just not always feasible.

Grandmaster Dunn by the way founded the USADR long before we met. As a retired LEO he has much pratical experience and we now cross-train with several other individuals. He has honored me with formal recognition within his organization and later asked we to sit on the board. In turn I have recognized him within my system with a rank that had already been achieved in more traditional styles. I have similarly recognized several individuals with their previous experience and simply cross-ranked them. Zhao Dai Wei is NOT a traditional system in which a participant MUST learn MY way. It is tailor made to each student with emphasis on what works best for them. As an instructor it does not matter what I can do...only what I can teach YOU to do. If a Black Belt comes to me for training I recognize him as a Black Belt. I don't play the game of 'well I didn't promote you so I won't recognize you'. I don't deal well with politics...in fact I absolutely will not play those games. I have a good friend who is a Nidan in Uechi-ryu. He wishes to train with me for the grappling/ground fighting applications as he is also a fellow Deputy. I not only allow but encourage him to wear his Black Belt, because he has earned it. If he choses to stay with me for continued training I will recognize him at that level [given consistant training and application] within my system.

As far as the system of Zhao Dai Wei goes I stand by my credentials and experience in its creation. I did not want it to be rigid, I sought flexability in it's application. Some people get very uptight with Martial Artist's that develop a new system. With the greatest respect intended, I attribute this to immaturity or lack of knowledge of the history of Martial Arts as a whole. Jigoro Kano, after only a few years in Ju jitsu developed Judo at the age of 22. And he did a fine job of it! But are you going to tell me that just because he is Asian he is entitled to create a system at 22 years of age and a few years of martial arts experience, but I cannot after 30 years, 2o of which was with practical hands on experience [military/LEO]with real bad guys who committed real violent felonies and wanted very much to seriously hurt me? Again, with respect, I don't buy into that.

Hwang Kee at age 31 [younger than me], combined Soo Bahk Do and Chinese T'ang to develop Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan. Kang Uk Lee was a 6th Dan at 29 and a 9th Dan by 40. Hmmmm, we simple Americans should refrain from creating something new and wait 10 years between Dan ranks but our Asian predecessors didn't have to. And again, Bruce Lee himself never earned a Black Belt [to the best of my knowledge] yet founded Jeet Kune Do before 30. I say this not to their shame but to their CREDIT. These men were leaders to be respected. But they don't have the market cornered. We Americans have a tradition of resourcefulness and creativity as well.

Are there American instructors who are greedy and not legite? Oh YES there are!! But lets be honest, is it not the same in the Orient? Or is it standard to charge an American $6000 to go to the next Dan as I know of an incident? Isolated incidents to be sure, but there are bad apples in every bunch. The majority are honest, and legite, but not all. Do not Americans [and Brazil and Canada and Britain etc]Have their own highly respected people? Of course we do.

I had obtained other belts in more traditional styles going back quite a ways. I began developing this system somewhere back in the 80's albeit nothing in concrete. More of a mental mapping process of the direction I was thinking of taking. In the early 90's I began to flesh out the bare bones of what I was trying to accomplish. I was lacking in certain skills that I felt needed to be included in this system. So I began focusing my energies in that direction. I "officially" began teaching this system albeit still in its infancy around 1995. At this time I did not even worry about rank systems or any other non-vital data. My focus was its development. I kept my previously attained Dan ranking. An accident disabled my wife and I had to stop teaching for a period to care for her. But in my spare time I kept my personal training going and continued to update my methods.

I could have gone the route of "start a style/wave a wand/become a 25th degree black belt" Many do. However, I thought it prudent to seek out not just my peers, but my betters and say, "hey this is where I've come from and this is where I'm trying to go...help me achieve this goal". I've been blessed to fellowship with some fine instructors who are just down right decent human beings. And weren't out to make a buck at my expense. I took counsel [and still do]. I began to get recognition for my system at a Dan ranking in line with my years of experience and previous achievements. I have worked my way up to where I am now over time.

When I began I was unconcerned with titles, and I still am. I don't use them except on correspondence; no one calls me by anything other than David or coach by my instruction. I have my old plain Black Belt from years ago. No strips or gadgets or symbols, just plain. My system is ittsy bitsy in a large world, but after all has been said and done I am fairly happy with where I am at because I want this to be a part of what I pass down to my son.

Have I "arrived'? No of course not, and I never will. Zhao Dai Wei will continue to develop and improve as I do. But know that others have honored me to a position they feel that I am ready for and deserve I can kind of forget about the whole rank issue and concentrate on just training and getting better. The ultimate reason is the ability to go home safe at night to my wife and son.

Soke originally meant teacher, now it has come to mean founder. I have 'founded' this system and received recognition from highly respected Grandmasters in some very old organizations. If some wish to take issue with this that is their perogative, but it is perhaps simply pre-determined predjudice from a distance. Comments made out of generality without first hand knowledge of an individual, his accomplishments, goals, experience etc.

Zhao Dai Wei is Chinese because a Chinese based systems were amoung my first exposure to the Arts and they are near and dear to my heart. However, the system also has Okinawan/Japanese, Israeli and to a small extent Korean elements. As I prefer the Traditional Japanese belt system to the Chinese I have gone that route. To the best of my knoweldge this does not violate some supposed rule. All styles/systems were forged with the influence of its origninator, I have done no less.

Shuri-Te is an Okinawan karate style despite comments to the contrary. It is closely inter-related with styles like Shuri ryu etc.

I am not familar with Soke Castro....

My Ph.D. is in Philosophy.

In short [too late :)] my 'titles' have been given to me by my betters. They have chosen to honor me in this fashion which is their perogative due to their individual experiences and contributions to the arts. Since I have earned it in their eyes I use it on corrospondence and my site. If this is still a problem for some then so be it. You cannot always please everyone nor should you try. You should follow your own course and not put to high a credence on those who perhaps have a different agenda or perhaps a bad experience in some regard.

For those that welcome me, my humble and happy thanks. I look forward to courteous and informative discussion with you. I am always ready to learn or improve. To anyone else I simply bid you peace and happiness. Stay safe all.

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei

Shuri-Te is an Okinawan karate style despite comments to the contrary.


Funny how no such style exists in Okinawa:rolleyes:

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei
Soke originally meant teacher, now it has come to mean founder.

read the historically documented definition of the word soke again.

[RyuShiKan]

What do ya say guys.................shall we all get together and start giving each other Soke-ships and 10 th dans?
We can start our own bogus organizations so we can "official recognize" each other as a "true" Soke-doke.
It seems to be the thing to do these days.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

People like that are f*****g joke and a disgrace to people that train seriously.

[A.R.K.]

Funny how no such style exists in Okinawa

Shuri is indigenous to Okinawa. And has quite a following not only in this country but abroad. A very good friend of mine from the academy has his Yodan in Shuri Te and his instructor has just accepted his Hachidan in the same.

I started off with the perception that perhaps you merely had some bad experiences and were transfering them to the new guy. I see as you have progressed that you are merely trolling. If this is the case we can simply agree to disagree but I will stand by my credentials...they were earned with blood, sweat and tears. You casting dispersions from behind your monitor towards someone you don't know speaks to your character.

If you would like to start your own organization feel free. I have founded two, the first benefits children's charities and the other unites Masters from around the world in fellowship [and is free]. I can see where you would have a problem with this. How dare I help children by uniting fellow artists. How dare I unite Artist's worldwide for fellowship and networking for free. I can see why your making all of your smart aleck remarks.

I'm also a member of the Korean Yudo & Hapkido Association. I guess thats not legite either in your esteemed eyes. I guess folks such as Jack 'Pappasan' Stern and Joe Hess are fakes as well...I mean the KYHA is only one of the oldest, largest and most prestigeous organizations with strong ties to the East in the country.

Yes, lets lump in the USADR as well. How dare they buck the system by cutting through the politics and greed and concentrate merely on helping an Artist achieve something he/she has earned but been prevented from recieving. BTW, as a non-paid board member I can tell you for a fact that the vast majority of current members did not pay one penny. It was given them free BECAUSE this organization rebels against the politic game. How dare they buck the system of predjudice, greed, racial profiling and discrimination. Yes, I see your problem there as well.

If you wish to get bent out of shape at the term Soke, then so be it. Your long article is an opinion, if you wish to subscribe to it that is your right. Don't force it on others. I never once deemed myself with any of the titles I now have. They have been awarded to me by my betters...and YOUR betters. They felt I deserved such recognition, I accepted. As for $$$...lets see. I charge $40 per month for unlimited classes to the students that can afford it. To the others I give them a free ride. As I am employed by the Grace of God full time, I teach because I love to, not because it is my bread and butter. I make perhaps $150 a month on a good month as I basically teach for free. Those that can contribute pay for an occasional piece of equipment.

Your problem is with the self appointed Mcdojo grandmasters, not me. If you chose to continue making your jaded comments to me and about me then we simply don't need to converse. I am here to fellowship with those of a similar interest and hopefully expand my borders. I don't feel currently that I could learn anything from you except negativity and arrognant antagonism. I do bid you peace and health.

[Bob Hubbard]

I'm going to add a few cents worth here....

This is aimed in general, and not at anyone specifically right now....

I repeat, MartialTalk welcomes the 'Friendly' debate...to this end:

1 - Debate the point, but leave the insults out of it. If you can't handle debating in a mature manner without resorting to inuendos, veiled insults, or the like, then please leave.

2 - Given the large number of arts out there, the fact stands that certain terms may be used in ways that are different than the original intent.


Given that several clarifications were asked, and they were supplied, I see 2 current points of contention:

A - RyuShiKan disagrees with Zhao Dai Wei's definition of 'SOKE'
(this word does not appear in any of my 3 Jap-Eng dictionaries, BTW)

B - RyuShiKan disagrees with Zhao Dai Wei's comment that "Shuri-Te is an Okinawan karate style". I do remember some discussion about this here recently.

I'll ask both groups to provide reference to both disputed facts.

On "Soke":

WHAT IS A SOKE?
-----------------------------
The definition of a "Soke" is simply the head (founder or
inheritor) of a martial arts system which is based on a
Japanese martial art. If the system is based on a martial
art originating outside of Japan, then the proper title
is "Head of Family". http://www.tejitsu.com/soke.htm

'Soke' also does appear to have English roots:


Sokemen
Freemen of a higher standing than other classes of peasants and could attend the court of his Soke. They were described as a peasant aristocracy and it is believed they represent the descendants of the Danes who settled in the East Midland. http://www.btinternet.com/~simonmarchini/glossery.htm#Soke and Sokeland


"Shuri-Te Discussions"
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2323&highlight=ShuriTe
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3721&highlight=ShuriTe

:asian:

[A.R.K.]

Kaith Rustaz,

I appreciate your comments and agree with your assestment. I DO NOT subscribe to the 'my way is the only way' mentality nor do a buckle under to those that think this way.

RyuShiKan is entitled to his opinion as am I. If he choses to display a less than polite persona I will simply pass by in peace. I'm quite sure there are a vast amount of polite, thoughtfull posters here to fellowship with.

There is much supportive, and valid discussion on both issues on the net. A quick search will reveal much. Whether an individual choses to accept or disregard is entirely up to them.

I will say this, I may not agree with your opinion but I have worn a uniform and defended with my very life your right to hold that opinion....have you?

I would ask a simply question of RyuShiKan since he states in his bio that he is an instuctor. Simply, what do you charge [or what does your school/organization charge] for someone to obtain their Shodan?

And lastly, of the organizations that I belong to, none have charged me for anything beyond shipping of documents. I was invited into them all. As have I been both Hall of Fames, and the third this summer. I earned through hard work my credentials, not my pocket book. And a good thing...I'm poor :).

[arnisador]

MartialTalk is a place for the friendly discussion of the martial arts. For those seeking a less restrictive atmosphere, consider rec.martial-arts (http://groups.google.com/groups?q=rec.martial-arts&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en) (via groups.google.com). We welcome all martial artists.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-

[A.R.K.]

We welcome all martial artists.

Thank you.

[Baoquan]

ZDW.

Welcome to the board. I look forward to learning from and with you. Your knowledge and experience are most desired here.

Cheers

Baoquan.

[Kirk]

Originally posted by Jay Bell
Here's a link of an article that Don Angier wrote:

My Career in Yanagi-ryu Aiki Jujutsu (http://www.aikidojournal.com/articles/_article.asp?ArticleID=1067)

Wow...all those poor legitimate Soke in Japan are all out for money! :rolleyes:

That's stretching things a bit far. There are plenty of Soke of koryu bujutsu schools that use the title properly.

Great read!

[chufeng]

I don't know what RyuShiKan charges..and quite frankly, I don't care...

More importantly, does HE promote for money or does he promote based on a certain standard...I have it on good authority that he promotes when a student is ready, and NOT before...

I charge $0.00 per lesson and only require my students maintain an Association membership (all proceeds go to headquarters) which costs $25 per year...I doubt you'll find many teachers who offer lessons at that rate...

Of course, the nice thing about that is, I can turn away those who are not going to use the art in an honorable way...
Tough part is, HOW can I tell? I can't...at least not for a little while...so I give everyone an equal opportunity at learning this system...

Now, I am no soke...I am not a Grand Master...I am simply a teacher and student who hopes to learn as much from his students as my students learn from me...

:asian:
chufeng

[MartialArtist]

I agree with Zhao, he wasn't talking about traditional systems at all. He was talking about the sport aspects.

But realize, any art that becomes popular will develop its own sport version.

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei

Shuri is indigenous to Okinawa. And has quite a following not only in this country but abroad.

Shuri is the name of a city in Okinawa and the name that was given to describe certain styles that supposedly came from that area.
If you could supply us with the name of some teachers in Okinawa that practice a single art called "Shuri Te" I for one would love to see it...........however I am not holding my breath.


Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei
A very good friend of mine from the academy has his Yodan in Shuri Te and his instructor has just accepted his Hachidan in the same.


Sorry but I regard your friends credentials to be just as fabricated as yours.


Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei
I started off with the perception that perhaps you merely had some bad experiences and were transfering them to the new guy. I see as you have progressed that you are merely trolling.

Moi? Trolling? Not hardly. Exposing someone with dubious credentials.........hell yes.
As many members here already know I absolutely can not stand frauds in the martial arts and expose them whenever and wherever I see them.
You're just another "over ranked Yank" that just happend to stray into my sights.


Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei
If this is the case we can simply agree to disagree but I will stand by my credentials...they were earned with blood, sweat and tears. You casting dispersions from behind your monitor towards someone you don't know speaks to your character.


Ahhhh going to play the old chracter assasination card, are you.
This is usually said by people that can't support their claims by fact(s).

Like I implied before.
You and some of your friends got together and started a mutual dan rank giving society that wouldn't stand up under the scrutiny of a MA organization in China, Okinawa or Japan.

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei
I would ask a simply question of RyuShiKan since he states in his bio that he is an instuctor. Simply, what do you charge [or what does your school/organization charge] for someone to obtain their Shodan?

I don't charge a penny.


Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei
And lastly, of the organizations that I belong to, none have charged me for anything beyond shipping of documents. I was invited into them all. As have I been both Hall of Fames, and the third this summer. I earned through hard work my credentials, not my pocket book. And a good thing...I'm poor :).

Yeah that would be kind of like giving money to yourself wouldn't it.:rolleyes:

[Matt Stone]

I spent about 4 hours crafting my rebuttal to your comments. Regrettably, having left the window open, my son inadvertantly dropped a book on the keyboard, wiping out a good sized chunk.

I am not going to go back to rewrite the entire thing...

Suffice it to say that while I don't agree with all you say or do, you don't seem to be deliberately malicious. Your responses were well worded and polite.

I disagree most on the use of language and the inconsistencies in your use of multiple languages in your style. I would suggest and recommend you review what languages you plan on using, learn to use them correctly, and maintain a consistent appearance for your art. It was these inconsistencies that lead me to question the legitimacy of what you are teaching...

I wish the book hadn't hit the keyboard... My original response was much longer, in depth, and nowhere nearly as brusque and short sounding.

Welcome to Martial Talk. I look forward to future discussions with you.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by chufeng
I don't know what RyuShiKan charges..and quite frankly, I don't care...

More importantly, does HE promote for money or does he promote based on a certain standard...I have it on good authority that he promotes when a student is ready, and NOT before...


Well one thing is for sure I don't promote people over the internet :rolleyes: like this Zhao Dai Wei and his pals do. http://www.usadr.iwarp.com/

I can only imagine how demanding that test could be:rofl:

Call me old fashioned but I actually like to see people test in front of me before I decide what grade they should have.......I know it's probably stupid to do that but I am kind of funny that way.

Zhao Dai Wei ,

Do you have a volume discount? I might be interested in picking 5 or 6 Soke-doke ranks.:rofl:

[MartialArtist]

So what's the URL to his website? I've seen some links, but I haven't seen Zhao's school.

[RyuShiKan]

Go to the links page.

You'll see this:

Martial Arts Links
SOMA
KIBO-TAE
BudoSeek
USADOJO
TMAN
Tae Kwon Do Network
Zhao Dai Wei
Indra's Martial Arts Directory
World Martial Arts

[RyuShiKan]

Board Members of the USADR

http://www.usadr.iwarp.com/about.html


Promotions Board President
GrandMaster David Schultz, founder of ZHAO DAI WEI, Chinese based style with a focus on close quarters tactics. GM Schultz has 30 years in the Martial Arts. His studies include Uechi-Ryu, Shuri-Te, Judo, Jujitsu, Krav Maga and Shoalin Chin Na. In addition to Police Defensive Tactics, Firearms(Instructor), Israeli Instinctive Shooting, Edged weapons and Chemical weapons. GM Schultz's discipline has also been recognized by The World Black Belt Bureau, The Independent Martial Arts Federation, Korean Yudo & Hapkido Association, The Unified Sokeship Association International and The Agni Kempo Organization of Iran. GM Schultz has studied with Tony Blauer. Joe Hess, Tony Lambria and Sir Peter Boatman. GM Schultz is also the President of the Gulf Coast Martial Artist Guild which benefits Children's Charities and the International League of Martial Arts Masters. GM Schultz currently teaches Police Personnel in west central florida and is attached to the Pinellas County Sheriff's Office as a Deputy and an Instructor.
-----------------------------


Note the fashionable buzz word close quarters tactics..........gee I can't remember the last time I saw an empty-handed art that work from 100 meters away..........although I hear Dillamn and Mooney have something in the works:rofl:

[Master of Blades]

Originally posted by jfarnsworth
I'm glad you did clear that up because then I was really gonna start to wonder about you.:rofl:

Like you didnt already...........:shrug:

And RyuShiKan Some very cool posts in there :rofl: !

[A.R.K.]

RyuShiKan,

Shuri is the name of a city in Okinawa and the name that was given to describe certain styles that supposedly came from that area.

Including Shuri Te. There are many Shuri Te organizations around the world. If you chose to ignore this simple fact by closing your eyes that is entirely up to you.



Sorry but I regard your friends credentials to be just as fabricated as yours.

As I said earlier, you are merely trolling with some type of chip on your shoulder. I suspect for quite some time before my arrival here. As I stated earlier, your arrogant, antagonistic comments speak to your character. Unless I missed the memo, no one has appointed you as the supreme head of all that is the Martial way on this planet. You seem to be an arrogant,traditionalist, elitist snob who has appointed himself as the Karate police. Just because you do not recognize a particular style does not mean it is non-existant.

Do you know EVERY aspect of EVERY Martial Arts system on this planet? Are you a world authority on who may implement policy concerning what they teach? The people who trained me are every bit as legitimate as the ones that trained you, perhaps more so. Mine have seen the White elephant and gone in harms way...just as I have. You seem to think very highly of your ability to judge your fellow as to their credentials...from behind your computer, with no first hand experience of the men themselves. Very convienant. I will be blunt, with the maturity level you have displayed thus far, with the humility and integrity or lack thereof in your posts, I place absolutely no knowledgable authority in your opinion. The chip on your shoulder must be heavy indeed if you pick a conflict with everyone who doesn't fit into your narrow definition of the world. I feel sorry for you.

As many members here already know I absolutely can not stand frauds in the martial arts and expose them whenever and wherever I see them.

You have exposed nothing. You have merely run off at the mouth.

You're just another "over ranked Yank" that just happend to stray into my sights.

Ahh, the truth comes out....racial profiling and prejudice. An American or Canadian or Brazilain or Russian or Israeli or anything non-Asian is not worthy to hold any type of title or high rank. God forbid we actually start a new system! That right is reserved ONLY for Asians....with a couple of years of training in a dojo but NOT for a 'Yank' with more than three decades of actual combat experience with real live enemies. Hate to burst your bubble sport but NOBODY has the market cornered . Again I consider you the typical traditionalist, elitist snob who looks down their nose at anything or anyone different than themselves. You have NO idea what the Martial Way is all about!

You and some of your friends got together and started a mutual dan rank giving society that wouldn't stand up under the scrutiny of a MA organization in China, Okinawa or Japan.

Again this is just you beating your chest and throwing sand in the air. And you are showing once again your ignorance and immaturity. Lets take a look at something substantial, which seems to be a foriegn concept for you. The Korean Yudo & Hapkido Association is one of the oldest in this country. It is also one of the most respected anywhere in the world. It's founder Jack 'Pappasan' Stern hosted Mas Oyama on different occasions. It is one of the elite organizations on this planet. They are more legitimate than you and stand up to scrutiny very well. Pappasan himself is flying in this month to teach at a seminar that I and my associaties are hosting. ALL of the profits are going to benefit under priviledged children who have been through critical surgeries. He is doing this free of charge and on his own dime so to speak because it is for such a cause. That is the type of Martial artist that I am used to dealing with. Someone who is humble and gives not the first thought as to himself before others. Not arrogant self-proclaimed know-it-alls such as yourself who pass judgement on those they don't even know.

As stated before, the USADR was in existance long before I every came in contact with them. The do not promote, they recognize Dan ranks given proper credentials. AND they cut through the political, discriminatory BS that you have been spewing the last couple of days. If they chap your hide...get some vasaline. They don't charge hundred's of dollars for something someone has already earned...or was prevented from earning through predjudice people such as you seem to be .

The GCMAG is an organization that I have founded to unite Martial Artists to benefit children in need. Do you have some inhumane problem with Martial Artists giving back to the community and helping kids?

The ILMAM has and is uniting Masters and Grandmaster all over the world for fellowship, networking, work shops etc. It does not issue rank in any way,shape or form.

The Agni Kickboxing Association of Iran is a national affiliated organization rich in traditional pride. They have produced some top notch Martial Artists...this can NOT be disputed. They have offered me membership and professional recognition as I am openly invited to their tournements. Same with the others mentioned on my site. Gee...that sure is sinister isn't it. Imagine that, other Martial Artists extending professional courtesy. Perhaps you need some education in this.

So no, my 'friends' didn't GIVE me anything except earned respect. The organizations I belong to are legitimate. NO 'dan' factories anywhere in sight despite your arrogant presumptions.

[B]Well one thing is for sure I don't promote people over the internet like this Zhao Dai Wei and his pals do.

I have never promoted anyone over the internet. Neither has GM Dunn. They have the opportunity to test with us in person or via video tape if they are unable financially to travel to us. In such a case we have a vast resourse of Martial Arts instructors to draw on who will gladly step in-AT NO CHARGE-to test the individual or draw up test requirements as needed for a particualar style. As of this writting we have not had anyone test with us, therefore we remain a recognition-oriented organization for those with proper credentials and references. But we WILL provide a testing opportunity to those that need it. People have circumstances come up such as school closings, instructor moves away or passes on etc. There is absolutely no reason to force someone to fly over to the 'home' country to test or to charge them hundreds or thousands of dollars for the 'priviledge' to test. NOt when we have fine instructors who will stand up and assist the little guy who is being jerked around by greed or racial predjudice. Another case of you running your gator about that which you know nothing about or have a closed mind to.


Do you have a volume discount? I might be interested in picking 5 or 6 Soke-doke ranks.

Another sparkling example of your character....

Note the fashionable buzz word close quarters tactics

Fashionable buzz word? Or battle proven concept. I'm seriously starting to wonder if you really are a Martial Artist, one with any practical experience outside the dojo. Perhaps you need to familarize yourself with such things as reactionar gap, danger zone or long, medium and short range techniques. Either these are foreign concepts to you, in which case you don't have a clue about real-world fighting or your just beating your chest again looking for conflict...

If you are truly in the Martial Arts, I pity you. From your racist and arrogant remarks you are brain-washed into thinking YOUR style is the only one on the planet and all others don't exist. You have limited yourself from many learning opportunities and fellowships. Your arrogance will be your undoing son. You think that just because something is new and/or different it is not valid. This is very narrow-minded and not indicative of a TRUE Martial Artist! A true Martial Artist constantly strives to learn and experience and is not afraid of that which is different. This is how we grow in experience.

The style that you claim to train in was at one time new and different. It was founded by an individual who was a pioneer and leader amoung men. Someone who pushed the envelope to see what was beyond. I have done no different that those who have gone before me and others will do after me. I don't BS people or rip them off, as I stated earlier I teach almost for nothing because I love it so much. If you don't want to look at me as legitiamte....who cares? You are not an authority. Others who are your betters, those who have been teaching longer than you have most probably have been alive and are authorities have granted me the position that I now enjoy. Something that I can one day pass onto my son...just as many before me have done in the rich history that we all share. Again if you don't like it....who cares? I certainly do not. You shot down your own credability around your third post as far as I am concerned.

I have nothing I need to prove to you nor do I seek your approval in anything. I am quite sure I have much more real world experience and knowledge than you. If you feel you need to prove something to me, if you feel you need to take me to task you are always welcome to ask me out on the deck to see what I know or do not know. I will be most happy to provide you with where I teach if you every want to drop by. I will either meet you with open arms of friendship and fellowship or provide you with whatever opportunity you think you need to prove me false.

To the rest here I thank you for your warmth and welcome. I humbly apologize that this nonsense had to go on and take up so much space. But where I come from, if a man runs his mouth becuase he has some personal issue, for whatever reason then the man he runs his mouth about is obliged to step up and make him accountable.

If this gentlemen has any further arrogant or antagonistic remarks I would suggest he put it to email directly to me. In this way he doesn't feel the need to cater to the audience. Again, I thank you very much and look forward to polite converstation with you. Stay safe.

[Zepp]

Wow!

Didn't this thread start off as "A Friendly Hello?"

[A.R.K.]

Zepp,

Yes it did. And I'm so sorry it has taken the turn that it has. I'm here to participate in informative discussion. I wish to learn new things from people and if I can contribute to someone as well then so much the better. I didn't expect the verbal judo match. Nor will I participate further in one. If someone doesn't like me then they can trash me by email :D On with the good times!!:boing1:

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei
RyuShiKan,

Shuri is the name of a city in Okinawa and the name that was given to describe certain styles that supposedly came from that area.

Including Shuri Te. There are many Shuri Te organizations around the world. If you chose to ignore this simple fact by closing your eyes that is entirely up to you.

Like I said before, give me a name of someone in Okinawa the teaches a style called “Shuri Te”.


Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei
Sorry but I regard your friends credentials to be just as fabricated as yours.

As I said earlier, you are merely trolling with some type of chip on your shoulder.
I suspect for quite some time before my arrival here. As I stated earlier, your arrogant, antagonistic comments speak to your character. Unless I missed the memo, no one has appointed you as the supreme head of all that is the Martial way on this planet. You seem to be an arrogant,traditionalist, elitist snob who has appointed himself as the Karate police. Just because you do not recognize a particular style does not mean it is non-existant.

No true. But I do know pure BS when I see it.


Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei
As many members here already know I absolutely can not stand frauds in the martial arts and expose them whenever and wherever I see them.

You have exposed nothing. You have merely run off at the mouth.

Is that so? I think others might disagree.


Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei
You're just another "over ranked Yank" that just happend to stray into my sights.
Ahh, the truth comes out....racial profiling and prejudice. An American or Canadian or Brazilain or Russian or Israeli or anything non-Asian is not worthy to hold any type of title or high rank. God forbid we actually start a new system!



“Over Ranked Yank” is a term I heard from one of my European friends.
Having overly high rank with only a few years train, as in your case, is a very American thing and not that common in Europe or in many other countries. It seems to be a phenomenon mostly prevalent in the US…..hence the term “Over Ranked Yank”.



Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei
That right is reserved ONLY for Asians....with a couple of years of training in a dojo but NOT for a 'Yank' with more than three decades of actual combat experience with real live enemies. Hate to burst your bubble sport but NOBODY has the market cornered . Again I consider you the typical traditionalist, elitist snob who looks down their nose at anything or anyone different than themselves. You have NO idea what the Martial Way is all about!

You fit these descriptions on so many levels.

Combat Poseur
How to Spot a Virtual Tough Guy
This article was published in The Electronic Journal of Martial Arts and Sciences.
Unfortunately, self-defense and the martial arts attract a particular breed of fraud in vast and limitless numbers: the Virtual Tough Guy (VTG). The VTG is often quite young, but not necessarily so. He may or may not have useful information to share. What is important to the VTG, however, is that you be impressed with how very cool he is. More tenacious than a mall ninja, more impervious to reality than a mail-order black belt, the VTG needs you to acknowledge what a badass he is. He uses a variety of intellectually dishonest tools to accomplish this, among them vague claims to unverifiable training, crude reverse psychology, and the judicious application of bootlicking. Fortunately, the average Web denizen can learn to spot the VTG's warning signs, and take with his or her posts the appropriate number of grains of salt.

Its Only a Flesh Wound
Your average VTG has been there and done that, man. He's been shot, he's been stabbed, he's been cut. He's won countless fights and lost a few, too



Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei
As stated before, the USADR was in existance long before I every came in contact with them. The do not promote, they recognize Dan ranks given proper credentials. AND they cut through the political, discriminatory BS that you have been spewing the last couple of days.

Yeah, over the Internet, I can see how actually grading in front of a teacher would be a major inconvenience. :rolleyes:




Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei
So no, my 'friends' didn't GIVE me anything except earned respect. The organizations I belong to are legitimate. NO 'dan' factories anywhere in sight despite your arrogant presumptions.

The fact that you sell dan ranks over the Internet is proof enough.


Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei
Well one thing is for sure I don't promote people over the internet like this Zhao Dai Wei and his pals do.

I have never promoted anyone over the internet.

I already proved that you are connected to it.

Promotions Board President
GrandMaster David Schultz, founder of ZHAO DAI WEI, Chinese based style with a focus on close quarters tactics. GM Schultz has 30 years in the Martial Arts. His studies include Uechi-Ryu, Shuri-Te, Judo, Jujitsu, Krav Maga and Shoalin Chin Na. In addition to Police Defensive Tactics, Firearms(Instructor), Israeli Instinctive Shooting, Edged weapons and Chemical weapons. GM Schultz's discipline has also been recognized by The World Black Belt Bureau, The Independent Martial Arts Federation, Korean Yudo & Hapkido Association, The Unified Sokeship Association International and The Agni Kempo Organization of Iran. GM Schultz has studied with Tony Blauer. Joe Hess, Tony Lambria and Sir Peter Boatman. GM Schultz is also the President of the Gulf Coast Martial Artist Guild which benefits Children's Charities and the International League of Martial Arts Masters. GM Schultz currently teaches Police Personnel in west central florida and is attached to the Pinellas County Sheriff's Office as a Deputy and an Instructor.


Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei
Do you have a volume discount? I might be interested in picking 5 or 6 Soke-doke ranks.

Another sparkling example of your character....

It’s a legit question.



Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei
If you are truly in the Martial Arts, I pity you. From your racist and arrogant remarks you are brain-washed into thinking YOUR style is the only one on the planet and all others don't exist. You have limited yourself from many learning opportunities and fellowships. Your arrogance will be your undoing son. You think that just because something is new and/or different it is not valid. This is very narrow-minded and not indicative of a TRUE Martial Artist! A true Martial Artist constantly strives to learn and experience and is not afraid of that which is different. This is how we grow in experience.

I don’t think I have ever stated or even implied once on the Internet or this forum that my style was the end all beat all to MA. You’re trying to put words in my mouth.


Phil's Field Guide to Trolls
An Analysis of Forum Fauna

n Contrarian Troll Warning Sign Number One: The most important indicator of a poster's Contrarian Troll status is his constant use of subtle and not-so-subtle insults, a technique intended to make people angry. Contrarians will resist the urge to be insulting at first, but as their post count increases, they become more and more abusive of those with whom they disagree. Most often they initiate the insults in the course of what has been a civil, if heated, debate to that point.



n Contrarian Warning Sign Number Five: Attempts to condescend. Pursued by Troll Bashers (see Natural Predators below), the Contrarian will seek refuge in condescending remarks that repeatedly scorn his or her critics as beneath notice -- all the while continuing to respond to them.

The Sophist Troll. Sophist Trolls, or "philotrolls," fancy themselves Enlightened Philosophers or Learned Experts of the highest order. Often well educated, Philotrolls are capable of speaking intelligently on a number of topics, and when the spirit moves them they can be worthwhile forum participants. Unfortunately, Sophist Trolls are an extremely hostile and intolerant species.

When confronted by opinions with which they do not agree -- particularly when they do not see any means of successfully arguing their contrary views -- Sophists resort (repeatedly) to a variety of intellectually dishonest tactics. Most often, this is characterized by an overly snide, condescending, patronizing attitude. Philotrolls consider anyone with whom they do not agree to be "immature," and are fond of quoting that old saw that "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing."



Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei
I have nothing I need to prove to you nor do I seek your approval in anything.

You seem to want to approval by someone since you keep responding with long-winded posts.



Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei
I am quite sure I have much more real world experience and knowledge than you.

Its Only a Flesh Wound
Your average VTG has been there and done that, man. He's been shot, he's been stabbed, he's been cut. He's won countless fights and lost a few, too.



Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei
If you feel you need to prove something to me, if you feel you need to take me to task you are always welcome to ask me out on the deck to see what I know or do not know. I will be most happy to provide you with where I teach if you every want to drop by.

This is it folks. The Classic line of the Virtual Tough Guy.
The dreaded and most feared “Internet Challenge”

[Bob Hubbard]

quote: Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei
If you feel you need to prove something to me, if you feel you need to take me to task you are always welcome to ask me out on the deck to see what I know or do not know. I will be most happy to provide you with where I teach if you every want to drop by.

quote: Originally posted by RyuShiKan
This is it folks. The Classic line of the Virtual Tough Guy.
The dreaded and most feared “Internet Challenge”


So heres a question... whats the difference between when a 'troll' and a 'troll-basher' make the same challenge? Is there one?

I've had several trolls, and many a troll-basher invite me to stop in and 'see what they were all about' over the last 2 years...despite the fact that I'm not likely to fly cross country or over seas just to get my head kicked in.


Beyond that question, please take the differences to email at this point.

Thank you.

[Matt Stone]

RyuShiKan,

Shuri is the name of a city in Okinawa and the name that was given to describe certain styles that supposedly came from that area.

Including Shuri Te. There are many Shuri Te organizations around the world. If you chose to ignore this simple fact by closing your eyes that is entirely up to you.

Please list some. When I researched the Shuri-te school I attended, in online fora as well as for websites, I was informed by quite a number of long term karateka that Shuri-te, as a style, simply did not make it out of Okinawa. It was absorbed into the styles that left Okinawa to become famous in the last century.


Sorry but I regard your friends credentials to be just as fabricated as yours.

…the chip on your shoulder must be heavy indeed if you pick a conflict with everyone who doesn't fit into your narrow definition of the world. I feel sorry for you.

While I can only speak for my own opinions, RyuShiKan is not the only one to find curious inconsistencies with the associations you are a member of or have received recognition through. Your background, though varied, is primarily Okinawan (based on your own statements). Why then are you a member of, and so active a proponent for, a Korean Hapkido and Yudo (Judo) association? Clarification would perhaps enlighten us all...


As many members here already know I absolutely can not stand frauds in the martial arts and expose them whenever and wherever I see them.

You have exposed nothing. You have merely run off at the mouth.

By stepping into a public forum, your activities, your associations, your existence has been exposed to the sight of many beyond your particular locale. By putting such information on the Internet for all to access, you further open yourself up to criticism. Your online behavior, the way you respond to comments (favorable and unfavorable), the method you use to post simple comments will all be judged one way or another.


You're just another "over ranked Yank" that just happend to stray into my sights.

Ahh, the truth comes out....racial profiling and prejudice. An American or Canadian or Brazilain or Russian or Israeli or anything non-Asian is not worthy to hold any type of title or high rank. God forbid we actually start a new system! That right is reserved ONLY for Asians....with a couple of years of training in a dojo but NOT for a 'Yank' with more than three decades of actual combat experience with real live enemies. Hate to burst your bubble sport but NOBODY has the market cornered . Again I consider you the typical traditionalist, elitist snob who looks down their nose at anything or anyone different than themselves. You have NO idea what the Martial Way is all about!

You attempted to level the accusation at RyuShiKan that he was making comments without the benefit of firsthand knowledge of you and your art, you too fall into the same accusation. Do you know of Taika Oyata? Are you informed about what kind of person RyuShiKan is? No on both counts. If you are going to attempt to take the moral highground, avoid falling victim to making the same comments you are accusing others of having made.


You and some of your friends got together and started a mutual dan rank giving society that wouldn't stand up under the scrutiny of a MA organization in China, Okinawa or Japan.

Again this is just you beating your chest and throwing sand in the air. And you are showing once again your ignorance and immaturity. Lets take a look at something substantial, which seems to be a foriegn concept for you. The Korean Yudo & Hapkido Association is one of the oldest in this country. It is also one of the most respected anywhere in the world. It's founder Jack 'Pappasan' Stern hosted Mas Oyama on different occasions. It is one of the elite organizations on this planet. They are more legitimate than you and stand up to scrutiny very well. Pappasan himself is flying in this month to teach at a seminar that I and my associaties are hosting. ALL of the profits are going to benefit under priviledged children who have been through critical surgeries. He is doing this free of charge and on his own dime so to speak because it is for such a cause. That is the type of Martial artist that I am used to dealing with. Someone who is humble and gives not the first thought as to himself before others. Not arrogant self-proclaimed know-it-alls such as yourself who pass judgement on those they don't even know.

As stated above, why do you persist in your vehement support of an organization that you do not advertise having had training in? You promote your rank in Pangai-noon and Shuri-te, but rather than being supportive of Okinawan karate organizations, you are a rabid supporter of a Korean Hapkido and judo-variant organization…


As stated before, the USADR was in existance long before I every came in contact with them. The do not promote, they recognize Dan ranks given proper credentials. AND they cut through the political, discriminatory BS that you have been spewing the last couple of days. If they chap your hide...get some vasaline. They don't charge hundred's of dollars for something someone has already earned...or was prevented from earning through predjudice people such as you seem to be (by your own words).

The USADR provides rank recognition to people who do not study the same system(s) as those evaluating them. I study Yiliquan, Modern Arnis, Ryu Te Karate and soon Shinto Muso-ryu Jojutsu. Can you evaluate my training in those arts and provide me with rank promotion when you do not know the promotion standards or requirements, nor do you have any training in those arts? If you do, even once, then you are selling the rankings you are trying to convince others you are just “recognizing.” Whether that is your intention or not, it is what you are doing essentially. If someone is a victim of so-called “political, discriminatory BS,” I would suspect there to be more to the situation than some overbearing Big Brother organization just trying to keep some poor student under their cruel heel. Organizations have standards for a reason, and sometimes individuals don’t get promoted as high or as quickly as they would like. Tough. They should be less concerned with rank and more concerned with training. Perhaps if they trained half as hard as they work to try to get promoted, the promotions would no longer be a concern…


The Agni Kickboxing Association of Iran is a national affiliated organization rich in traditional pride. They have produced some top notch Martial Artists...this can NOT be disputed. They have offered me membership and professional recognition as I am openly invited to their tournements. Same with the others mentioned on my site. Gee...that sure is sinister isn't it. Imagine that, other Martial Artists extending professional courtesy. Perhaps you need some education in this.

So by saying they have offered you “professional recognition,” what does that really mean? Did they grant you rank or honorary rank in their association? Did they give you rank in Agni Kickboxing because you are a Pangai-noon and Shuri-te yudansha and they felt you were good enough to merit an equivalent rank in their system? If this isn’t the case, please clarify what “professional recognition” means.


So no, my 'friends' didn't GIVE me anything except earned respect. The organizations I belong to are legitimate. NO 'dan' factories anywhere in sight despite your arrogant presumptions.

The respect you earn isn’t contained in certificates, titles, or organization positions. It is shown by they way they treat you, talk to you, or discuss you with others.


Well one thing is for sure I don't promote people over the internet like this Zhao Dai Wei and his pals do.

I have never promoted anyone over the internet. Neither has GM Dunn. They have the opportunity to test with us in person or via video tape if they are unable financially to travel to us. In such a case we have a vast resourse of Martial Arts instructors to draw on who will gladly step in-AT NO CHARGE-to test the individual or draw up test requirements as needed for a particualar style. As of this writting we have not had anyone test with us, therefore we remain a recognition-oriented organization for those with proper credentials and references. But we WILL provide a testing opportunity to those that need it. People have circumstances come up such as school closings, instructor moves away or passes on etc. There is absolutely no reason to force someone to fly over to the 'home' country to test or to charge them hundreds or thousands of dollars for the 'priviledge' to test. NOt when we have fine instructors who will stand up and assist the little guy who is being jerked around by greed or racial predjudice. Another case of you running your gator about that which you know nothing about or have a closed mind to.

How can you promote someone not of your style? How can you recognize someone at a grade higher than the one they were issued by competent members of their previous art, especially if you have no training in that art? It isn’t a question of having a closed mind, it is a question of legitimacy. I do not study Brazilian Jujutsu, so therefore I have no right nor ability to judge someone’s competency in that art. I do not study Krav Maga, Capoeira nor Hung Gar, so I have absolutely no business whatsoever “recognizing” someone’s training in those arts, regardless of whatever situation they find themselves in.


To the rest here I thank you for your warmth and welcome. I humbly apologize that this nonsense had to go on and take up so much space. But where I come from, if a man runs his mouth becuase he has some personal issue, for whatever reason then the man he runs his mouth about is obliged to step up and make him accountable.

And where I come from, if a man makes public announcements of skills, credentials, titles and other such things, he is willing and able to make a full accounting of the same. If he doesn’t, or is simply reluctant to do so, then there are other issues at hand.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

[A.R.K.]

Yawn :rolleyes:

No true. But I do know pure BS when I see it.

Sadly, it is true. And the only BS is what you've been shoveling. I came here for good hearted fellowship, you came here with hand waving and a chip on your shoulder.



I think others might disagree.

So? Perhaps you need a thumbs up from the audience, I do not. Those that may disagree with me are welcome to do so, provided they can be polite. You have hardly tried this. That is why I know you know nothing of the Martial Way.

Having overly high rank with only a few years train, as in your case

This is simply overt lying on your part, to which I am not suprised. Perhaps it is you that only has a few years, but I honestly doubt you even have that.

is a very American thing and not that common in Europe or in many other countries. It seems to be a phenomenon mostly prevalent in the US…..hence the term “Over Ranked Yank”.

Again your inexperience shows clearly. It is the Orient where buying a Dan began...namely Japan. It has happened in America as well as other countries...but it began in the East were one can buy a 6th Dan for $5000. Or is it common to be a Blue belt and six months later be sitting at the Master's table at a tournement with a 6th Dan? Or is it common to charge an Oriental from outside the school with less time in grade $100 for a 3rd Dan but $600 to the American who has actually assisted in teaching the classes for the Master? No, it is not an 'American' thing. It started long before from your neck of the woods. It is nothing more than racial predjudice on your part. And unprofessional.


The fact that you sell dan ranks over the Internet is proof enough.

Show us all here the Dan ranks I have 'sold' over the internet please. I would very much like to see them. If you make an accusation be prepared to back it up.


I already proved that you are connected to it.

Hmmm, I'm connected to the USADR in an honorary post. I don't receive any money. I've never promoted anyone through that organization as I have stated before. I have recognized people for that which they have already achieved. Your inuendos are not evidence. You seek merely to smear someone you don't know.

The dreaded and most feared “Internet Challenge”

Funny how you have quoted my reply only in part so as to make it appear out-of-context. You are a very weak man. Here lets take a look at the WHOLE quote,not just the selected bit for your smear campaign;

I have nothing I need to prove to you nor do I seek your approval in anything. I am quite sure I have much more real world experience and knowledge than you. If you feel you need to prove something to me, if you feel you need to take me to task you are always welcome to ask me out on the deck to see what I know or do not know. I will be most happy to provide you with where I teach if you every want to drop by. I will either meet you with open arms of friendship and fellowship or provide you with whatever opportunity you think you need to prove me false.

Lets take a real good look at that last part...you know..the one you left out on purpose to further your smear campaign;

I will be most happy to provide you with where I teach if you every want to drop by. I will either meet you with open arms of friendship and fellowship or provide you with whatever opportunity you think you need to prove me false.

Yes indeed, I can see why you are so upset...how dare I offer to greet you in friendship and fellowship. The deck time is there should you feel YOU need it. I offer you the opportunity to meet face to face, to get to know me and talk first hand about things and you turn it around for your hate agenda. You are the one who feels I'm inexperienced. You are the one who feels I am unqualified for the honors bestowed on me. You are the one with the ego. So if you need to prove me to your concept of me...I will be happy to take you to school. My grandfather told me never to say anything I can't back up. Its a shame yours did not do likewise.

[Matt Stone]

Again your inexperience shows clearly. It is the Orient where buying a Dan began...namely Japan. It has happened in America as well as other countries...but it began in the East were one can buy a 6th Dan for $5000. Or is it common to be a Blue belt and six months later be sitting at the Master's table at a tournement with a 6th Dan? Or is it common to charge an Oriental from outside the school with less time in grade $100 for a 3rd Dan but $600 to the American who has actually assisted in teaching the classes for the Master? No, it is not an 'American' thing. It started long before from your neck of the woods. It is nothing more than racial predjudice on your part. And unprofessional.

You seem to be very bitter about something dealing with some past experience with an Asian teacher. What organization did you find selling rank for $5000? I think such information would benefit everyone reading these posts. I know that Hatsumi’s Bujinkan has handed out disparate rankings for odd reasons, resulting in individuals with inappropriate promotions publicly advertising themselves to be something everyone else knows they aren’t. Perhaps selling rank began in Japan, but in true American style, belt mills have gone far beyond what happens in Japan. Perhaps you would enjoy disputing this with RyuShiKan and myself, but I would only ask you to provide the basis for your rebuttal; he and I both live/lived there. Have you?


Hmmm, I'm connected to the USADR in an honorary post. I don't receive any money. I've never promoted anyone through that organization as I have stated before. I have recognized people for that which they have already achieved. Your inuendos are not evidence. You seek merely to smear someone you don't know.

If they have already achieved something, why do they need your recognition? They have been recognized by their association/organization/school/instructor for what they learned. As I stated in my other recent post, if you have no knowledge of their art, you have no business “recognizing” anyone.


Yes indeed, I can see why you are so upset...how dare I offer to greet you in friendship and fellowship. The deck time is there should you feel YOU need it. I offer you the opportunity to meet face to face, to get to know me and talk first hand about things and you turn it around for your hate agenda. You are the one who feels I'm inexperienced. You are the one who feels I am unqualified for the honors bestowed on me. You are the one with the ego. So if you need to prove me to your concept of me...I will be happy to take you to school. My grandfather told me never to say anything I can't back up. Its a shame yours did not do likewise.

And there you have it. In attempting to defend your morally superior position, you have resulted in hurling a valid internet challenge. As Kaith pointed out, I doubt you will be flying to Japan to engage RyuShiKan, and I doubt RyuShiKan is planning on flying to Florida.

If you insist on maintaining the moral high ground, throwing down the gauntlet is a sure way to knock yourself off the pedestal you set yourself and your position upon.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

[arnisador]

Please take further discussion of this matter to e-mail.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-

[RyuShiKan]

This crap just cracks me up!


You are a determined and dedicated practicioner of the Martial Arts. You continue on with your training, only to find that your instructor won't or can't advance you………….Is the Master or Instructor playing favorites because your not making any money for him……….You help instruct and months later you find that students you taught now out rank you. If you have answered YES to any of these questions, then welcome to the United States of America's Martial Arts Dan Registry. We are an Organization for Documentation of Dan level rankings and advancement's, established for the individual Martial Artist and ALL Styles are welcome. We have no affiliation to any particular style or discipline. Politics to us is a four letter word.

And here I thought “serious” practioners didn’t give a hoot about dan ranks.
I know I don’t……….I could be kicked down to 10 kyu and could care less as long as I still got to train.

Why sell dan rank to people you have never seen over the Internet?
To make money of course!

How can someone grant dan ranks to someone outside of their syle?

Easy……sell it to people that feel they have been “cheated” (and most likely don’t deserve it) over the Internet!

This all reminds me of those bozos that sell University degrees over the Internet.

It’s a sad day when people actually buy into the fallacy that getting rank from someone you have never met over the Internet is actually worth something.
What’s even more disturbing is the people that try and make themselves out to be legit that are selling them………..sorry THAT is not the “martial way” that I was taught.

[A.R.K.]

Kaith Rustaz,

Your request concerning email will be honored on my part. I am done with the 'dueling banjo' routine with RyuShiKan.

Yiliquan1,

Why then are you a member of, and so active a proponent for, a Korean Hapkido and Yudo (Judo) association? Clarification would perhaps enlighten us all...

Because they are open to any Martial Artist regardless of style or rank. Because it is a wonderful fraternal organization in which I have enjoyed fellowship. I have trained in Chinese, Okinawan, British, Canadian and Israeli systems. This does not limit me to only fellowshipping with those particular groups. I like their organization, I like their members, I was invited so I accepted. I like the fact that a man of Pappasan's level will travel to teach a seminar that we will host for the benefit of children in need and wants nothing in return for his time.

Both you and your friend act as though I came in here on post number 1 yelling 'I'm the best' 'you all suck' 'call me grandmaster mac daddy'. You both [him more than you] where knee deep in me before I could say 'nice to meet you'.

You want to converse? Fine. You want me to interview before you to see if I'm worthy of your company...I'll simply say 'have a nice day' and go play with the other kids :D



The USADR provides rank recognition to people who do not study the same system(s) as those evaluating them.

I have already addressed this. I will refer any further questions to the organizations founder. His email is on the site. Its only fair for him to answer for himself if he's being attacked by any individual. I will answer for myself as to the two organizations that I have founded. Do you have any questions about the GCMAG or ILMAM?



The respect you earn isn’t contained in certificates, titles, or organization positions. It is shown by they way they treat you, talk to you, or discuss you with others.

I couldn't agree with you more. I have been overwhelmed with the courtesy and humility of these individuals. Helping me with children's charities. Introducing me to associates from around the world. By promoting my organization's to other Masters/Grandmasters around the world.

The world of Martial Arts is vast. I have been truly blessed to meet, train with, fellowship with men of incredible integrity, conviction and regard for their fellow man. So you see if anyone here simply doesn't like me or who I am inside or what I stand for I consider it their loss. I offered my hand and they slapped it. It will not keep me up at nights.

And where I come from, if a man makes public announcements of skills, credentials, titles and other such things, he is willing and able to make a full accounting of the same. If he doesn’t, or is simply reluctant to do so, then there are other issues at hand.

I have answered to the best of my ability. But again, I'm not interviewing for anyone's approval. I am who I am. I have been trained by some of the best people in the world in my opinion. I continually seek improvement in every area of my life. I give unto the Lord as I am lead. I teach for practically nothing because it is a joy. I have seen the results of my instruction prevent a date rape, an escape, a violent assualt etc in the men and women I have trained. To me their is nothing more rewarding as an instructor than to get a phone call from a student saying 'I'm safe...here's what happened...'.

My titles are used manly in coorspondence. I instruct my students to call me by my first name. I don't need my ego feed by such things. If someone gets bend out of shape about titles or positions others with vastly more experience have honored me with...well, honestly thats just to bad. If they wish to try to slander me or insult me with inuendo then it will simply fall on deaf ears as their opinion no longer has credibility with me. Again, I'll go play with the other kids.


You seem to be very bitter about something dealing with some past experience with an Asian teacher.

Not at all. And it was not my intention to portray this. My apologies. Yes I do know of many down right vulgar incidences first hand. But I will also say it is the world over. I do know of one American organization that you can buy a Judan for $450. That sucks and cheapens a life long accomplishment for the rest of us. But as you have said, its not the belt its the man and I agree. Probably why I very rarely wear a belt. But I also know of an Asian organization that descriminates against non-Asians. Thats life. You can be bitter or you can simply move on and associate with better people who aren't looking to rip you off.

If you insist on maintaining the moral high ground, throwing down the gauntlet is a sure way to knock yourself off the pedestal you set yourself and your position upon.

I am on the morale high ground. If you took greeting him with open arms in friendship or fellowship as anything other than that you are mistaken. I meant that from my heart. Same for you or any other member here. He had a chip on his shoulder from the git go. He was antagonistic from the git go. He was the self appointed Master of all. His claim is I don't know squat. So I made it known that I will not be hiding under a rock. But as I said, meet face-to-face, discuss differences openly is my first and best solution. I don't think he would accept a face to face invitation for a cup of coffee if he lived in the next town because of his rude behavior. Its one thing to slander someone you don't know from afar, quite another to have to look him in the eye while you cut him to pieces.

I'm here to make friendships and fellowship. If someone doesn't like me.....someone else will :) I bid you peace, I'm done with the 3rd degree.

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei
You seem to be very bitter about something dealing with some past experience with an Asian teacher.

Not at all. And it was not my intention to portray this. My apologies. Yes I do know of many down right vulgar incidences first hand. But I will also say it is the world over. I do know of one American organization that you can buy a Judan for $450. That sucks and cheapens a life long accomplishment for the rest of us.


Funny thing, there are more Soke’s and 10th dans in America than Japan.

[A.R.K.]

Funny thing, there are more Martial Artists in America than in Japan :D

[Matt Stone]

Really? How do you know?

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei
Funny thing, there are more Martial Artists in America than in Japan :D

Odd how many of those same western bozos claim higher ranks than people that have trained longer in the Honbu dojo on a daily basis not to mention some of the the head instructors at the same honbu dojo in Japan/Okinawa too.

By the way, you never answered my question on where you got your ranks in Pangainoon.........since you claim it is 8th dan that would mean you have to get it from a higher rank than 8th dan........

[A.R.K.]

Same could be said the other way as well. Every country has its leaders and every country has its folks looking for the easy ride. One is not better than the other. Good is good and bad is bad.

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei
Same could be said the other way as well. Every country has its leaders and every country has its folks looking for the easy ride. One is not better than the other. Good is good and bad is bad.


I see. So your "Internet dan factory" is catering to those that want the easy ride instead of putting in the sweat and determination it takes in a real dojo.

[A.R.K.]

Ric Martin won the gold IN Okinawa against an Okinawan. Matt Furey won a world championship in China against a Chinese. There are good folks from all countries. No one has a monopoly on the Martial Arts. That is one of the reasons it is so wonderful.

[A.R.K.]

RyuShiKan

I believe you were instructed to take posts of this type to email were you not?

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei
Ric Martin won the gold IN Okinawa against an Okinawan. Matt Furey won a world championship in China against a Chinese. There are good folks from all countries. No one has a monopoly on the Martial Arts. That is one of the reasons it is so wonderful.

and??????? I fail to see how that answers my question.
I have won and lost tournaments before.........I have had Japanese, Okinawans, French, Germans, Spaniards, American, and Canadians all as my students………so what.

What I am saying is folks like you that claim higher ranks in styles than people that have trained at the “source” longer are not the ranks you claim.

[Bob Hubbard]

People, Enough!

Take it to email or PM, but in any event, take it off-board.

Everyone has made their points, repeatedly, and I don't see the sence in another dozen posts going around and around without a resolution in sight.

Take it off board.

Thank you.

[arnisador]

This thread is now locked.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-