Firing your Master

[mango.man]

Along the same lines as "Asking a student to leave" how about telling your instructor he is fired.

I have made no attempt to hide the fact, here or anywhere else, that my daughter is simply in TKD, at this point in time, for the Olympic sport nature.

15 months ago when we left the school she had attended for the first 8.5 years of her TKD life, we left for several reasons. They ranged from no competition training to finding out that one of the Master's at a different dojang of our Grand Master's system of dojangs was on a leave of absence due to child molestation charges instead of due to his father's ill health as everyone was told.

When we signed on with our new school, the Master had just opened about 4-6 weeks earlier but he told us that he wanted to produce TKD athletes that could compete at the highest level possible.

My daughter was the first Black Belt in the school but he let us know that 1 other was going to be joining soon. And soon after, the other did show up. He came to 5 or 6 classes right off and in the year or so since, he has maybe been to 5 or 6 more classes.

A few other black belts have come and gone as well for various reasons. There is 1 other black belt that joined us about 10 months ago now, and she is in it primarily for the sport as well. Problem is that she is 10 and my daughter is 15. This other girl is very good and will likely go very far in the sport if she sticks to it. In fact last weekend she won silver at the US Open.

I can't help but believe that a big reason that she won silver was because for the past 10 months or so, her only real sparring partner has been my daughter who is considerably older, stronger, bigger, faster etc. In the meantime, my daughter was eliminated from the US Open in her first fight in large part because for the past 10 months or so, her only real sparring partner has been this 10 year old girl nearly a foot shorter and 25 pounds lighter.

The master also let go, perhaps the best competition minded asst coach my daughter has ever worked with, just 2 months or so into his job. He did not fire him, the assistant quit because the master would not let him teach the athletes the way he felt was proper.

Combine those factors with the fact that at a recent parents meeting the master made clear that he wants to open a dojang in every city in the area and expand, expand, expand and it seems clear to me that he is no longer focused on building a strong competition team and pursuing the sport side, but he would rather be a McDojang operator.

Good for him if he has decided he would rather get rich quick. But he knows why we signed on with him and what our goal is. At the time it was the same as his. To reach an elite level in the sport of TKD. That is no longer his goal and therefore it is time for us to move on.

So I invited him to lunch last week and we discussed these things and that I was removing my daughter from the school for these reasons. I did not call him a McDojang operator or tell him I thought he just wanted to get rich now. But I did say that it appears his goals have changed from what he had told me his goals were 15 months ago.

I really tried to keep things on the best terms possible but when our conversation ended he made it very clear that we would never be welcomed in his dojang again. I was offended that he would do such a thing as to say that we are no longer welcome in his presence. I suspect we will run into each other at various tournaments etc. I suspect those will be uncomfortable moments if he truly turns his back on my daughter as though she has somehow disrespected him.

Any advice for how to deal with those situations, when they do come up?

[terryl965]

All I can say ever in my neck of the woods stop by and train, byt since you are in Cali. I really have nothing to say but you probaly did the best thing. Good Luck and hope you will find the right match.

[Kacey]

Like any good parent, you acted in the best interest of your daughter; unfortunately, the master of this school was probably counting on having your daughter as a draw for new students, and is upset at losing her - but that's his problem, and his ego getting in the way, not yours. It sounds like you handled it well, and he didn't - which, I think, confirms that your decision was the right one.

[mango.man]

Thanks for the confirmation guys. And you can bet that if we are ever in the Arlington area, we will let you know Master Stoker.

Still my question remains, how should we deal with future run ins?

I mean, we left our original school in a cloud of dust and a big F-You on the way out, but still when my daughter sees that GM at an event, she will approach him and bow and say hello. I get the feeling though that with this guy, such an attempt to be courteous will not go so well for either her or I.

[IcemanSK]

Since you're in California, I would seek out folks like, Jimmy Kim or the other big names in Cali USAT. I'm in So. Cal. but USAT style isn't my fort'e. Luckily, almost anywhere you are in So. Cal. you'll find good olympic style folks who have "been there."

Call Jimmy Kim first. Second I'd suggest looking for schools on the USAT site.

[WMKS Shogun]

I suppose that you have told her about the situation. If not, I would talk to her about it, so that if she chooses to talk to him, she can at least be prepared for what may be a very cold reception. Encourage her to maintain the honor, integrity, and courtesy befitting a black belt, even if her former master does not. It will be a showing of which of them truly EARNED their black belt, and which one merely WEARS their black belt.
Hope this helps. If I think of anything more, I will post again. It is good to hear about parents taking a keen instrest in their child's martial arts training. Keep up what looks to be the good parenting!

[mango.man]

Master Kim's school would be a great place. I spoke with him at the US Open about the new Saturday class he has. 5 hours of intensive competition training every Saturday. I also spoke with a few parents that are enrolled. It is certainly something we will consider when my daughter's Saturdays are available. Right now, until June, her Saturday availability is limited because she is going through the LA Sheriff's Explorer Academy. I consider Master Kim a good friend and my daughter is very close to several of his highly competitive students. It would really be a great environment for her.

As things are right now, Kings TKD (Master Luis Reyes) is where we are leaning towards for day to day and competition team training. I expect next Tuesday will be her first class there.

[jks9199]

You didn't leave in a cloud of dust with a giant "F-you."

You approached the chief instructor to discuss a problem, and were summarily dismissed, and told you weren't welcome back.

I'm not impressed by the way he handled it. Not at all. There appears to be every reason to question whether he carried through on implied promises he made to you.

If or when you run into him again, it'll be easy to handle. Be polite and formal. Bow appropriately. Don't seek him out, don't chat with him.

[terryl965]

Thanks for the confirmation guys. And you can bet that if we are ever in the Arlington area, we will let you know Master Stoker.

Still my question remains, how should we deal with future run ins?

I mean, we left our original school in a cloud of dust and a big F-You on the way out, but still when my daughter sees that GM at an event, she will approach him and bow and say hello. I get the feeling though that with this guy, such an attempt to be courteous will not go so well for either her or I.

Always say hello and try to give what respect you can. It is a hard thing when fallouts happen but we should never really burn a bridge, sometimes a little scroce is Ok. Remember the Tenets of TKD even when your previous GM does not.

[terryl965]

Master Kim's school would be a great place. I spoke with him at the US Open about the new Saturday class he has. 5 hours of intensive competition training every Saturday. I also spoke with a few parents that are enrolled. It is certainly something we will consider when my daughter's Saturdays are available. Right now, until June, her Saturday availability is limited because she is going through the LA Sheriff's Explorer Academy. I consider Master Kim a good friend and my daughter is very close to several of his highly competitive students. It would really be a great environment for her.

As things are right now, Kings TKD (Master Luis Reyes) is where we are leaning towards for day to day and competition team training. I expect next Tuesday will be her first class there.

Master Reyes is a great Instructor and if you could make Master Kims on Saturday that would be fantastic for her, he has been there and knows what it takes.

[granfire]

You just can't help it wen somebody gets the knickers in a twist. Not all in life is roses and some folks forget that respect is a mutual thing.

Anyhow, as so many others said, be polite and courtual...you don't have to be cheery or chummy with the guy. A formal 'how do you do' and your on your way. taking the high road is the best way to deal with this.

[Catalyst]

I suppose that you have told her about the situation. If not, I would talk to her about it, so that if she chooses to talk to him, she can at least be prepared for what may be a very cold reception. Encourage her to maintain the honor, integrity, and courtesy befitting a black belt, even if her former master does not.

I would approach it just as WMKS says.

You and your daughter will never be able to control your former master's emotions, actions, etc.
But your daughter will be able to control how she responds and I think doing as WMKS says is the correct thing to do.

Just my $0.02

[IcemanSK]

I didn't address the issue of respect toward past instructors, but I agree with Master Stoker & the others on it. Be polite, but no need to be chatty. The tenents are ours to carry regardless how others act.

It sounds as though you have a plan for your next steps. All my best on the journey for you & your daughter!:asian:

[shesulsa]

How your daughter deals with future path-crossings with him all depends on how much you've told her, how much she has heard and how you display your attitude towards him in front of her.

It's very unfortunate that you were received in such a manner. I would encourage your daughter to remember that sometimes even the very best of us don't always think clearly which can and does affect our actions and responses to others. While this man is a Master, he is still, after all, a human.

I would personally avoid contact and should you meet by chance or at tournaments and such, simply bestow the same kindness to him as you would to any other acquaintance there. Smile, be quick and polite, then go about your business. Your daughter will pick up on that.

Whatever you do, avoid venting to everyone else and discourage your daughter from doing so. This is a character trait she will learn from your model and it is one of the most important tenets in all martial arts, I think - the ability to be humble and kind even in the face of ... well, what you experienced. :)

[Miles]

I could not have said it any better than any of the above comments. It is great that you are looking out for your daughter's best interests and have tried to communicate your feelings to her instructors in a civil manner. That they have not always reciprocated speaks volumes about them.

Good luck to you and your daughter!

Miles

[K31]

Wow. That's amazing. You did the right thing. I suggest that in the future you do just the same. It was that owner, not you ,who acted wrongly.

Basically, if some enterprise does me wrong or if I'm thinking about leaving them but I'm otherwise satisfied with them, I'll tell them why and give them a chance to change if I think they can. If someone has egregiously wronged me, I'll quit them without a word even if they ask why, I figure, if I'm wronged why should I help this person fix their problems and potentially stay in business.

Your daughter's former GM I predict will fail. His actions towards you indicate that he is not a good businessman. You went out of your way to be gracious and he repaid that with rudeness. Handle it the same in the future if it ever occurs with another GM. You take the highroad. If you see this guy again be courteous even if he doesn't respond.

[Flying Crane]

Still my question remains, how should we deal with future run ins?



Be polite and respectful, but stay true to your and your daughter's path. If the situation is uncomfortable or hostile, let it be HIS doing, not your own nor your daughter's, and don't play into it nor sink to that level even if he tries to push it to that level. And don't worry about it at all.

[buldog]

Lots of great advice from previous posters. Maintain your own level of integrity, don't sink to his. That said, it would be mighty tempting to bring him a Double Quarter Pounder McValue Meal at the next big tournament (Super Size it of course!!).;) I wish you and your daughter all the best.

[terryl965]

This is how I have always looked at it, we would like people to show respect to ue and so forth, but alot of people believe you only give respect if they other person has given it. My take is this our lives mean more than being dis-respectful to anyone if they choice to be this way so be it, but my training has tought me to respect everyone under all crcumstance. With that being said also remember you do not need to have dinner with him ever again.

[ellies]

Always say hello and try to give what respect you can. It is a hard thing when fallouts hiiappen but we should never really burn a bridge, sometimes a little scroce is Ok. Remember the Tenets of TKD even when your previous GM does not.

Well said, I agree. Remember the tenets of tkd.:scratchy:

[Balrog]

You didn't leave in a cloud of dust with a giant "F-you."

You approached the chief instructor to discuss a problem, and were summarily dismissed, and told you weren't welcome back.

I'm not impressed by the way he handled it. Not at all. There appears to be every reason to question whether he carried through on implied promises he made to you.

If or when you run into him again, it'll be easy to handle. Be polite and formal. Bow appropriately. Don't seek him out, don't chat with him.

Agreed.

This sounds like one of the "bow to the belt" situations. Sadly, there are too many of them around.

[IcemanSK]

Mango,

I'm curious if you've run into your old master & how that's gone since your OP.

[terryl965]

Mango,

I'm curious if you've run into your old master & how that's gone since your OP.

Yea me too, what ever happened?

[mango.man]

We are still "Homeless" as of right now. And we have not run into the former "Master" yet. This weekend will be our first competition since leaving. I do not think that there is anyone from our former school registered for this weekend's event so it is likely that we will not see him this weekend.

I really don't know when that first time will happen that our paths will cross, but when it does happen I will let you all know how it goes.

[shesulsa]

Hang in there - you'll find a new place for training. Good luck in tournament and do keep us posted!

[terryl965]

mango.man I'm sure you will find a home please keep searching. Ever inmy area stop by and when I'm out there I will let you know.

[IcemanSK]

Mango, it's been awhile. Where is your daughter training now?

[terryl965]

I hate to speak for anyone but I believe he is with Master Jimmy Kim out of Southern California.

[IcemanSK]

I hate to speak for anyone but I believe he is with Master Jimmy Kim out of Southern California.

Yeah, I s'pose she'd learn a thing or two from him. Excellent!

[terryl965]

Yeah, I s'pose she'd learn a thing or two from him. Excellent!

Yes if she is there she will learn, Charlotte Craig has been with him for years and now she is on the Olympic team with all the Lopezs.

[mango.man]

Thanks for following up guys.

She is training with Tim Thackrey http://www.usa-taekwondo.us/92_354.htm. She has been taking 2-3 private lessons from him each month for a couple of years.

After leaving our previous school, the 10 year old BB that I spoke of in my original post, opted to leave as well, since her focus is the same and my daughter's. She has joined us with Tim.

We have also found an additional 10-12 competition minded kids in the 9-18 age range that have joined us and Tim spoke with 3 more in Detroit that are interested in joining us as well.

We still do not have a place, so for the past 5 months or so, we have been working on Tim's driveway at his house or at a woman's center in the SF Valley that is nearby his house. The kids that are there on any given day come from as nearby as Burbank (5 miles or so) to as far away as Bakersfield (Nearly 100 miles).

Tim says if he can get 20 players he will open an official place. So we are getting closer. Hopefully within another couple of months.

[IcemanSK]

Thanks for following up guys.

She is training with Tim Thackrey http://www.usa-taekwondo.us/92_354.htm. She has been taking 2-3 private lessons from him each month for a couple of years.

After leaving our previous school, the 10 year old BB that I spoke of in my original post, opted to leave as well, since her focus is the same and my daughter's. She has joined us with Tim.

We have also found an additional 10-12 competition minded kids in the 9-18 age range that have joined us and Tim spoke with 3 more in Detroit that are interested in joining us as well.

We still do not have a place, so for the past 5 months or so, we have been working on Tim's driveway at his house or at a woman's center in the SF Valley that is nearby his house. The kids that are there on any given day come from as nearby as Burbank (5 miles or so) to as far away as Bakersfield (Nearly 100 miles).

Tim says if he can get 20 players he will open an official place. So we are getting closer. Hopefully within another couple of months.


You've gotta a good one there, mango man! Here's praying you get enough to open a school soon. All my best!

[hong kong fooey]

good luck in getting a school going. I hope the best for you and your daughter. and I understand why you wanted to leave the prev school I would have done the same thing

[YoungMan]

You're always free to leave a school if you wish. However, try to make sure that it's for the right reasons. Leaving a school because the instructor won't let you test, doesn't emphasize Olympic competition, or because you have your own ideas about teaching strike me as selfish superficial reasons to leave.
A personality conflict, money issues, physical/sexual abuse, you just don't care for the style, or an instructor who lies to his students are legitimate issues to leave over.

[mango.man]

You're always free to leave a school if you wish. However, try to make sure that it's for the right reasons. Leaving a school because the instructor won't let you test, doesn't emphasize Olympic competition, or because you have your own ideas about teaching strike me as selfish superficial reasons to leave.

Excuse me?

If my sole focus in TKD is Olmpic competition and I sign up with a school where the school owner promises that he will provide training that is focused on Olympic competition. Then 15 months or so into the training it becomes obvious that he is no longer living up to his end of the deal (providing Olympic competition training).

How is it selfish and superficial of me to leave, if Olympic competition training is still my only goal in TKD?

TKD training is the same as anything I pay for in life. I was paying him to provide a service to my daughter to reach a specific and predefined goal. At some point he stopped providing those services and changed his stated goals from training future Olympic champions to being a McDojang operator.

I do not see the selfishness or superficiality of taking my money and my daughter to someone else that can meet our stated goals.

[terryl965]

Excuse me?

If my sole focus in TKD is Olmpic competition and I sign up with a school where the school owner promises that he will provide training that is focused on Olympic competition. Then 15 months or so into the training it becomes obvious that he is no longer living up to his end of the deal (providing Olympic competition training).

How is it selfish and superficial of me to leave, if Olympic competition training is still my only goal in TKD?

TKD training is the same as anything I pay for in life. I was paying him to provide a service to my daughter to reach a specific and predefined goal. At some point he stopped providing those services and changed his stated goals from training future Olympic champions to being a McDojang operator.

I do not see the selfishness or superficiality of taking my money and my daughter to someone else that can meet our stated goals.


mango.man believe me you did what was best for you and your daughter, no hard felling from any poster. I believe Youngman was speaking from a standpoint of everybody and everything. Remember TKD is a focal point to all of us here whether sport or SD or Mcdojo.

[KELLYG]

I think you did the right thing in leaving. I am under the impression that the school that you left was new. Maybe he was drumming up students and was telling everyone what they wanted to hear to get them to come in the doors which is deceitful. But if during the following months his legitimately changed what he wanted to concentrate on then he should have bowed out gracefully.

Having not done so I am more inclined to think that it was a MONEY thing and that your daughter was used as a further draw for his prospective students. This is a good lesson for your daughter. Be respectful to everyone but not to give you respect until know that they deserve it. Anyone can get a black belt but some do not deserve it.

[Daniel Sullivan]

You're always free to leave a school if you wish. However, try to make sure that it's for the right reasons. Leaving a school because the instructor won't let you test, doesn't emphasize Olympic competition, or because you have your own ideas about teaching strike me as selfish superficial reasons to leave.
A personality conflict, money issues, physical/sexual abuse, you just don't care for the style, or an instructor who lies to his students are legitimate issues to leave over.
Just to throw in my two cents.

I agree to an extent, but there are occasions where a student simply outgrows their school and must seek training elsewhere. In Mango's case, the whole reason his daughter trains is for sport/competition, so if a school either doesn't emphasize it or drops it completely, then that is a perfectly justified reason for leaving.

Daniel

[matt.m]

I may be a bit behind. However, this really reflects in all arts. My students are dying to randori in competition. I train my students to death with rep and rep and rep of technique. I told them come tournament time they should be prepared because doing their technique will be 2nd nature. Gotta love it. Anyhow, if you aren't happy then just simply state your case and leave. If you are in a class etc. and you are paying money and miserable then you are wasting your time.

Once some students saw that I taught traditional Korean Yudo some left. However, I am very proud of my students that have stayed and continued. I am always getting new students. But here is the thing.....I don't make money teaching, I don't care about that stuff. Our dojang has an incredible mat for hapkido, yudo, and tae kwon do. Plus, it is all about comfortability, I even let students come and train at my home in my basement. It is incredible, all they want to do is learn and they work very hard.

As an Instructor I feel it my duty to put 110 percent into my group and I only care what they accomplish. I have already done the competition gig.

I am so proud of the intensity of my group of students.


Along the same lines as "Asking a student to leave" how about telling your instructor he is fired.

I have made no attempt to hide the fact, here or anywhere else, that my daughter is simply in TKD, at this point in time, for the Olympic sport nature.

15 months ago when we left the school she had attended for the first 8.5 years of her TKD life, we left for several reasons. They ranged from no competition training to finding out that one of the Master's at a different dojang of our Grand Master's system of dojangs was on a leave of absence due to child molestation charges instead of due to his father's ill health as everyone was told.

When we signed on with our new school, the Master had just opened about 4-6 weeks earlier but he told us that he wanted to produce TKD athletes that could compete at the highest level possible.

My daughter was the first Black Belt in the school but he let us know that 1 other was going to be joining soon. And soon after, the other did show up. He came to 5 or 6 classes right off and in the year or so since, he has maybe been to 5 or 6 more classes.

A few other black belts have come and gone as well for various reasons. There is 1 other black belt that joined us about 10 months ago now, and she is in it primarily for the sport as well. Problem is that she is 10 and my daughter is 15. This other girl is very good and will likely go very far in the sport if she sticks to it. In fact last weekend she won silver at the US Open.

I can't help but believe that a big reason that she won silver was because for the past 10 months or so, her only real sparring partner has been my daughter who is considerably older, stronger, bigger, faster etc. In the meantime, my daughter was eliminated from the US Open in her first fight in large part because for the past 10 months or so, her only real sparring partner has been this 10 year old girl nearly a foot shorter and 25 pounds lighter.

The master also let go, perhaps the best competition minded asst coach my daughter has ever worked with, just 2 months or so into his job. He did not fire him, the assistant quit because the master would not let him teach the athletes the way he felt was proper.

Combine those factors with the fact that at a recent parents meeting the master made clear that he wants to open a dojang in every city in the area and expand, expand, expand and it seems clear to me that he is no longer focused on building a strong competition team and pursuing the sport side, but he would rather be a McDojang operator.

Good for him if he has decided he would rather get rich quick. But he knows why we signed on with him and what our goal is. At the time it was the same as his. To reach an elite level in the sport of TKD. That is no longer his goal and therefore it is time for us to move on.

So I invited him to lunch last week and we discussed these things and that I was removing my daughter from the school for these reasons. I did not call him a McDojang operator or tell him I thought he just wanted to get rich now. But I did say that it appears his goals have changed from what he had told me his goals were 15 months ago.

I really tried to keep things on the best terms possible but when our conversation ended he made it very clear that we would never be welcomed in his dojang again. I was offended that he would do such a thing as to say that we are no longer welcome in his presence. I suspect we will run into each other at various tournaments etc. I suspect those will be uncomfortable moments if he truly turns his back on my daughter as though she has somehow disrespected him.

Any advice for how to deal with those situations, when they do come up?

[wade]

Charles, it is too bad we don't live closer together. Don't get me wrong, I don't want to be your daughters instructor. I'm not that good and probably can't live up to your expectations. But, on the other hand, I do have a couple of very nice young ladies that do so love to spar and would probably love to get in the ring and dance with Samantha. Ashley and Brittney were at the Nationals and Kara, Arden and Claire will all be at the US Open. I don't think they are in the same weight class as Samantha but, if you and she want to get together and play a little then lets do it. I'm sure my girls could use the experience and maybe give Sam a bit of a warm up if nothing else. BTW, this is not a challenge, I really do mean it as a get together so the girls can have some fun.

[mango.man]

That actually sounds like a lot of fun. Let's remember this in Feb and we will see you in Vegas.

[TX_BB]

She is training with Tim Thackrey http://www.usa-taekwondo.us/92_354.htm. She has been taking 2-3 private lessons from him each month for a couple of years.

What does your daughter do in between lessons?

[mango.man]

We see him several (4-5) times a week now, not just 2-3 times a month. Still on the days that she does not see him, she spends 60-90 minutes working in our "In Home Dojang" that our living room has been converted into over the years. That time is typically spent working on foot work in the mirror, beating the stuffing out of Century BOB, Jumping Rope and working with weights.

[TX_BB]

You may want to add speed work and agility work to the home routine. Tim's a great guy and will be able to handle all TKD aspects.