Black Belt Standards...Have they gone down?

[Jas0n]

Has the standards gone down for becoming a black belt?
Just seems an awefull lot of people claim it? So either there are allot of people out there that good or the standards have gone down? How do I determine if the place I am going to has a hiugh standard?

[MartialArtist]

Anyone can become a black belt in a year going two times a week and paying $100...

while there are people who've worked for decades trying to earn one training 6-7 days a week, training at least 3 hours daily.

[Jas0n]

Originally posted by MartialArtist
Anyone can become a black belt in a year going two times a week and paying $100...

while there are people who've worked for decades trying to earn one training 6-7 days a week, training at least 3 hours daily. So no I am really confused :confused:
Would the person who gets a Black belt in a yr be legit or is that cause the standard has gone down for that particular Dojo?
Or is the person who goes 6 to 7 days a week someone who is not as talented?
I was planning on 3 days a week. plus using the weights a bit also.
Mike Cappi's American Karate doesnt have any adult classes on Sat or Sunday.. I was a bit disapointed in that. Wednesday I go to a Bible study so the only days I can do it is Monday Tuesday and thursday. they dont have friday either? is this normal? they have kids stuff on those days.

[GouRonin]

Don't worry about the rank. Many arts don't even have ranks or belts.

Just go as often as you can and work hard. Don't worry about other people. Spend the time you have working at what you are doing.

You can spend far to much time being preoccupied with other people and rank.

So go start today. Many people put it off, and put it off, and then the reasosn they make up are far too many to start and they never do.

Above all, enjoy yourself. Best of luck.
:D

[muayThaiPerson]

My friend has a 2rd Dan in TKD, it took him 8 years

[Cthulhu]

My instructor made me learn 12 short forms. From what I hear, current students only need to know 6 for black belt these days.

Cthulhu

[MartialArtist]

As of right now, your belt has no indication on skill. Hell, it's even gotten to the point where it's no indication on EXPERIENCE.

[Zepp]

Speaking as someone who has a black belt, I think that belt ranks are generally the last thing you should worry about. Sure, you can be proud of having earned a black belt, but that shouldn't your main goal. If you concentrate on polishing your technique and conditioning yourself, a good teacher will let you know when you're ready for the next rank.

That does assume of course that you have a good teacher. If you're worried that you've joined a McDojo, or that your instructor is "prostituting" his art, you can always check out another school or gym to see what their standards are like.

I'm told that the record for someone earning their black belt in the World TKD Association was 1 year and 9 months, but that that was a very exceptional case. This guy apparently had a military backround, years of prior martial arts experience in other styles, and his hobbies included every sport he ever heard of. Besides that, since he had to test for his black belt with the grandmaster (just like everyone else), I don't doubt that he truly earned it. (Though I would understand the skepticism of anyone who never met the grandmaster.)

[James Kovacich]

Today everybodys standards are differant. But one thing that should matter is experience!

I practiced a lot of arts, some I don't spend much time in but most at least 3 and a few 5 years. What I got was a lot of experience in Karate, Jujitsu and Gung-Fu.

I ended up with a couple of brown belts and finally a black belt after 15 years. Was I qualified sooner? Maybe. I think I was but I was still just a brown belt bouncing fro system to system.

I became a very well rounded martial artist and that experience in all ranges is what I emphasize in my teaching. That was and is "my way."

I've "heard" of people getting their black belts in a year but haven't seen one in person, but if I did I doubt they would be able to touch someone that I taught for one year!

[Jill666]

Good. Now read it again.

My husband has a two-year degree from a Community College he earned at night. My old boss has a master's from Columbia. They're both exceptional at what they do, and take a lot of pride in it.

Take all the advice you can get on finding a good school- and then, listen to your gut on where you feel you will have a good experience. Then give it your all. Screw everyone else- most of the people in your life won't have a clue in hell why you want to do this anyway. In class you won't notice much how the others are doing, you will be trying not to F up.

And most of all, yes, have fun!

:cool:

[Matt Stone]

I started training in 1986. I was promoted to Senior Level 1 (in Yiliquan that is the first "black belt" level) in 1998. In 2000 I was given Senior Level 2. It is now 2003, and there are no promotions in sight...

The point?

At least in Yiliquan, black belts (or the equivalent thereof) are not an easy thing to come by, nor do they come quickly. The training is the important thing. The grade comes along in time.

Sure, have a goal. But worry about the process moreso than the result of it.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

[chufeng]

YiLiQuan1,

But it only took you 12 years to get to the first level...and two to get to the next...

Don't you think that the time spent learning all the juicy bits helped you eventually get the rank you actually DO deserve?

I know you could give a rat's a$$ about rank...I feel the same way...

Some day it may be important, in terms of operating your own club...credentials and all...but, we all remain students regardless of our rank...besides the rank is more for the old guy running the show...keeps him straight on what we should know...growing old is a terrible thing...

Oh and if your concerned about your next rank (NOT)...
nevermind...

:asian:
chufeng

[karatekid1975]

I have a blue belt in TKD. Which is a fairly high rank (depending on the dojang ..... in my dojang, it's equals about 6th or 5th gup ..... some where in there). I earned it in one year. Some would say that is fast. Yes it was. I'd prolly get my black belt in another year. But did I earn it? I think so. I train hard, and I ALWAYS work on technique. I also had previous martial arts experience. I reached blue belt in Tang Soo Do, also. My TSD instructor was strict when it came to proper technique, form, ect. He is still "teaching" me. What he has taught me, stuck with me. I still train with him when I visit back home. My TKD instructor noticed my technique and wanted to "rush" me. I did, till I got to high green belt. Then I refused to rush. I'm not in it for rank. I want to "earn" my black belt. I not only want to have a BB but BE a BB (hope that makes sence).

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by chufeng
YiLiQuan1,

But it only took you 12 years to get to the first level...and two to get to the next...

So perhaps only a lifetime to advance again? Sounds good to me...


Don't you think that the time spent learning all the juicy bits helped you eventually get the rank you actually DO deserve?

Ah, but while I have been exposed to a few choice juicy bits, I have yet to be allowed to wear the rank I really do deserve - that simple white belt... Which is all I would wear were I to be given the option. SO, in place of that, I do my best to get away with a simple, unadorned black belt, beginning to fade...


I know you could give a rat's a$$ about rank...I feel the same way...

Which is one thing that allows us to get along so well, and which causes me to genuinely listen to what you have to say as it comes not from your "rank" giving you authority, but the authority of training experience and insight... :asian:


Some day it may be important, in terms of operating your own club...credentials and all...but, we all remain students regardless of our rank...besides the rank is more for the old guy running the show...keeps him straight on what we should know...growing old is a terrible thing...

The only use of "rank" in my mind is in keeping class schedules and training goals straight. The only use of a belt is to teach proper breathing.


Oh and if your concerned about your next rank (NOT)...
nevermind...

It doesn't even enter my mind... I look at the grade requirements to give myself guidance on what I am "supposed" to know at this point, but I look at the grade requirements of all the other grades I have been through to provide me with guidance on what I should be able to teach.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

[sweeper]

hmm.. I tihnk it depends on the art.. in judo a belt is a nice grip for a throw or positioning when you are on the ground :-p

but real everyone's ranks are diffrent a blackbelt in one art does not equal a blackbelt in another nessisaraly

And because of that if a school gives out blackbelts prematurly it doesn't mean the students are bad or unskilled just not as skilled as the blackbelts of an equivalant school.. that is to say if the quality of instruction doesn't differ two people both with equal ability and dedication will have the same level of skill at a given amount of time no matter what belt rank, because of this look at what you are learning more than what rank you are.

[bob919]

no offense to karatakas or tkdists but in both these martial arts you can be almost garanteed a black belt in 2 years

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by bob919
no offense to karatakas or tkdists but in both these martial arts you can be almost garanteed a black belt in 2 years

That is a very broad generalization. While true in some respects, the caveat should be borne in mind that not all karate, nor TKD for that matter, schools hand out rank quite so quickly.

The run of the mill mini-mall schools, however, that rely on childrens' classes to pay the rent seem to promote to ensure attendance.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

[Mike Clarke]

It's not karate or taekwondo that gives out dank rank so easily, but individuals who are nothing short of prostituting their system for money.

Any individual can get a black belt from a sports store and claim what they like, but that dosen't mean a thing.

My grade is a statement made by my late sensei to me [his opinion of my understanding of the karate he was teaching me]
That's all the value it has or ever had.

Many years ago I handed out black belts to all my students at the start of training. Two hours later I collected them back in and asked if anyone felt they had trained any better than normal.
No one said it made them any better than they were. I gave them a lesson and made a point, and thankfully they all 'got it'.

Mike.

[Jester]

The way I have always looked at it is to train hard and the black belt will come in time.

The worst thing I can imagine is to hold a black belt and then have other people look at my techniques and say "he's a black belt?, how did that happen".

When I achieve black belt I want to know myself that I am worthy of holding that belt otherwise what's the point.

[RyuShiKan]

Hell, anymore bloated rank has gotten so bad I look at people and say …….."Is he really a 10th dan Grand Pooh Bah Super Soke:rolleyes: ?"


God, I would hope I get more out of my training than a crummy belt.

Just train……..that’s all you need to do and good things will happen.

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by bob919
no offense to karatakas or tkdists but in both these martial arts you can be almost garanteed a black belt in 2 years

THATS TOO BAD THAT ALL THE SCHOOLS YOU'VE EXPERIENCED WERE WEAK AND MONEY ORIENTED.

But in general you are totally wrong.
1st you listed all Karate as one, 2nd there are many instructors out there who use the same standards to promote that they have always used.

If you walk in the door with a lot of experience, you may move up faster, depending on the instructor but there is no guarantee of moving up.

The reality is its the instructors, not the arts that are bad. And there is a misconception that modified arts are always better. WRONG. At least not all the time.

Modified is good but you need a balance with the old or likely you will quit training sometime down the road, but a true martial artist will train forever!!

I personally have many years in traditional arts and I moved into BJJ and Jun Fan Gung-Fu which I havbe incorporated into "my way" but I have gone back to the traditional arts for my higher learning. I have 3 high level instructors in 4 arts. I "guarantee" you with no experience, they would never give out that rank as fast as you "almost guaranteed."

[chufeng]

For those of us who teach, isn't it better to emphasize the learning? Isn't it incumbant upon US to ensure that that IS the emphasis?

For those looking for a school...be wary of an escalating pay scheme for each promotion...be wary of any contract that guarantees black belt within a specific period of time...be wary of a school that has a LARGE number of students and only one or two instructors...HOW can you get the individualized attention in that environment?

Also, black belt means what?
In the U.S., where it seems everyone has one, not much...

However, I see black belt as an indication for the REAL learning...now the student does not have to think about HOW a punch works and can focus on other finer aspects...it is an indicator of an advanced student (emphasis on student).

:asian:
chufeng

[James Kovacich]

Paying test fees is not always a red flag indicator although it could be.

I used to train under my brother-in-law who teachs as traditional as traditional gets, but on the buisness end, in time, through him I understood the term "support your dojo."

At least 1/2 of the fees should be going to the Federation or Association. In the case of the Federation, they have their daily operations to support, including authorizing your rank and certificates.

On the Dojo's end, your possibly getting a new belt and the test should be done separately from the regular classes like on a weekend. That all costs money. My tests under my brother-in-law were on Saturdays and were scheduled for 4 hours and usually went into overtime. You do have to pay for what you get!

I've also learned that students show up on a regular basis if you charge them. It might sound funny but there are several people who I've taught for free and because it was free they were not dedicated enough to show up regularly.

[Kirk]

My instructor spends damn near his entire saturday, once every
two months on testing. He spends a lot of time getting our
packets together, certificates filled out, plus running the test,
and providing us our new belt. Of the 20 dollars he spends,
I bet 15 or more comes right back to us that day. He should get
paid for his time, just the same as when I go to work I get paid
for mine. I don't mind his testing "fee".

[Jas0n]

The place I am looking to start at does a have a 5 yr black belt plan its much cheaper but I am not going to opt for that...is that so bad?Everything else about the place seems on the up and up and I hear nothing but good about the guy running it...America Karate Mike Cappi in Lansdale, Pa

[chufeng]

Notice I said escalating fees...not flat fees...

i.e. Below brown belt testing costs $40...Brown Belt (x3) costs $75...Black belt costs $200 or better...

Of course a fee should be paid for a test...but it should be reasonable...

:asian:
chufeng

[tshadowchaser]

Each school / system has its own ranking criteria and its not really for me to say if it is correct. I test my students the way I was tested and the way my instructor told me he was.
Are black Belts being sold for money not experence and knowledge. You had better belive it. I'll agree with those that say go out look at the school, find one that teaches what you are looking for. Thensee if they gurrante you a certian belt in a given period of time . If they do RUN don't Walk out of there and find another one.
tshadowchaser:asian:

[James Kovacich]

Chufeng, I was just bringing out the point as it was brought to me some time ago and I understand the logic of being weary of the "escalation of fees." No doubt.

I would like to hear more though on how the schools out there are actually charging fees. I want to find a way to offset the students monthly fee so that I can keep it at the very lowest.

Back in the '70's my Instructor charged me $5. a week/5 days while everybody else was charging $20. and more.

Any ideas out there?

[Shinzu]

Originally posted by karatekid1975
I not only want to have a BB but BE a BB (hope that makes sence).

makes perfect sence!

[lvwhitebir]

Originally posted by Jas0n
Has the standards gone down for becoming a black belt?
Just seems an awefull lot of people claim it? So either there are allot of people out there that good or the standards have gone down? How do I determine if the place I am going to has a hiugh standard?

This is an age-old question... but claiming to be a Blackbelt and being a Blackbelt are two different thing. If you want a Blackbelt, just go to the store an buy one. If you want to BE one, first look at what that means TO YOU.

Most people think that a Blackbelt is the be-all-end-all, one mutha of a fighter, who moves like Jackie Chan but is built like Arnold.

Most instructors will tell you that a Blackbelt is nothing but another door, the same as any other rank. When you reach Blackbelt, you finally realize all that you still don't know. All the belt means that you put in a lot of sweat, blood, and dedication into your training and met the requirements of the school for that level. Some schools have easier requirements than others.

Do you care if you get a Blackbelt in one year? Does it mean anything special? All it means is that you trained for a year and you got something great to wear around your waist. In your school, it may mean that you get extra priviliges. But that's about it in the long run. Do you care if it takes 10 years? Think about it this way, a Doctorate generally takes only 8 years or so...

As most have said, don't worry about the rank itself, worry about your own training and whether you are getting what you want out of the art itself. It's a terrific and long journey, no matter what's around your waist.

WhiteBirch

[Astra]

Agreed. I train to become better, which is sort of "moving closer to BB" but at the same time, it is not. Just a difference of goals, one of them having an end point, and mine beeing endless :)

Fees are sort of relative though. If you take for instance WingTsun in Europe, I've been told that the only way to get a legit 1st Practicioners degree (takes averagly 6-7 years to get that far) is to have the main guy in the entire EUROPE test you, which costs a lot.

[karatekid1975]

I just figured out for the sake of this thread that I would be getting my BB after 4 years of training. That includes the a year in TSD. So, in this school (TKD) it will take me three years. I have 2 years to go. Do I care? Nope.

lvwhitebir made a very good post, which I totally agree. Like I said before, I don't want to just have a BB. I want BE a BB mentally and physically. I also know that having a BB won't make me Jackie Chan. My instructor says I have good technique, but I have a hell of a lot to learn. And, as they say (and I totally agree), a black belt is just an advanced beginner. Color belts learn the basics. Black belts learn how to use the basics ;)

[Bob Hubbard]

I see a big difference between what it takes to become a black belt, and to be a black belt.

Traditionally, the color arangement depends on your art. But its been white for student, black for instructor at the simpliest level.


Cost to become a black belt is about $5 for the belt, $3 for a good color print at the pffice store, and another $3 for a frame at Walmart. So, for $11 (+ tax n shipping) you too can become a blackbelt.

Now, can you fight your way out of a wet paper bag? Nope.
Have you mastered anything? Nope.
Have you found some inner meaning to your life? Nope.

Like the computer technician who has a wall full of certifications, but doesn't know where the floppy drive is, your belt is meaningless.

Many of the 'High Ranking' BB's you see are political promotions. Done as an honor, or favor, or bribe to someone. Elvis was an 8th degree Kenpo Blackbelt...however all but his FIRST degree were political or honorary.

Beware of the secret back room promotions too...guys n gals who suddenly jump 2,3 or 5 levels, and now are 'grandmasters' with big ads in 'black belt magazine'.


A piece of cloth around your waist does not a black belt make. Its in the heart, and the spirit of the martialartist. A blackbelt is a learner, a beginner, always open to the new technique, or insight to be found. He is an explorer, but what they are exploring is the limits of themselves and how far they can reach beyond them.


The question was asked "Have the standards for blackbelt gone down"?

For the material ones, the piece of paper and cloth, yes.

For the true ones, they have never gone down.

Its all up to you...do you want to be a paper black belt, or a true black belt?

Good Training.

:asian:

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by akja
Today everybodys standards are differant. But one thing that should matter is experience!

I practiced a lot of arts, some I don't spend much time in but most at least 3 and a few 5 years. What I got was a lot of experience in Karate, Jujitsu and Gung-Fu.

I ended up with a couple of brown belts and finally a black belt after 15 years. Was I qualified sooner? Maybe. I think I was but I was still just a brown belt bouncing fro system to system.

I became a very well rounded martial artist and that experience in all ranges is what I emphasize in my teaching. That was and is "my way."

I've "heard" of people getting their black belts in a year but haven't seen one in person, but if I did I doubt they would be able to touch someone that I taught for one year!

JUST WONDERING IF YOU GUYS WANT TO SHARE HOW LONG IT TOOK TO REACH YOUR BLACK BELT?

[Master of Blades]

Took my teacher 5 years training everyday 5 days a week everyday of the year except christmas boxing and all them days. This was intense training for 3 hours everyday. It has taken me three years of 2 times a week three hours everyday for most of the days of the year to get my Blue belt. I should be red in about 4-6 months, black whenever. I dont think its whether the standard has gone down, I feel it is more the way that the art is taught etc.

[James Kovacich]

You know it!

[MartialArtist]

I remember 50% of the students failing to get their yellow belt, and 95% of the students failing to get the black belt after ten years of rigorous training (6 days a week, at least 3 hours daily).

From my experience with McDojos, I've only seen one student fail, because he forgot his forms which were so vital to fighting :rolleyes: , couldn't break a board, and he couldn't recite some oaths and whatnot.

The oath thing is very traditional everywhere. Every military, and every school (good and bad) have something that you have to memorize. You don't memorize them, you get beat, yelled at, push-ups, conditioning, etc.

[James Kovacich]

As a teenager (in the "70's) I trained in my class, a Kajukenbo school for a year and it closed, then I trained in a Hapkido school for a year and it closed, then I spent 3 more years in another Kajukenbo school. I had close to 5 years in and I was only a green belt. But in Kajukenbo back then, that was pretty good, at least thought it was.

[Jas]

I think the problem is there are to many mass produced martial arts schools around that are just in it for the money, my friend has his son in TKD he is 7 and it just cost my friend over $100 for his son to be tested. I dont want to say anything bad about any style, but as a general rule if theres a school for a certain style on every corner I tend to stay away.

[James Kovacich]

I hate to pick on styles so I'm not going to name it. But a couple of weeks ago I went out to a pizza and there was a (strip mall) school next door. The class was full of brown and black belts (kids) that doing jumping spinning kicks into a kicking shield. Every last one of them bounced off of the shield.

[white dragon]

Compared to most of you lot here I'm an infant in the world of martial arts, although I've been doing TKD for almost 3 years and haven't got a blackbelt yet, just so you know not everywhere gives them out after two.

Before starting martial arts I had this image of what a blackbelt was, and what it meant to be one, and I've seen people that fit that ideal. On the flip side I've seen those wearing 2nd Dan belts that I wouldn't consider a high rank than me in any way, not technique, teaching ability, speed, sparring, or stamina and it makes me wonder how they ever got their grade. Belts in classes don't really mean anything to me anymore, I've learnt to judge people by ability rather than the colour around their waist as it can be very deceptive.

[James Kovacich]

Deception, good job. Everybody would like to think that their art has controversy but this isn't a perfect world.

There are legitimate reasons why people go to another source for certification. This thread didn't address that! Someone as myself has a lot of experience in several systems. But it would be impossible to master them the old fashion way.

So if I am worthy of a black belt and I have a lot of experience in several arts, then if I pursue these arts and I don't live near my instructor but he does guide and eventually he evaluates me, then would my certification be legitimate?

OK GUYS.......THIS ONE I WANT YOU TO ANSWER!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[James Kovacich]

BLOOPER, should of read:

"Everybody would like to think that their art has NO controversy but this isn't a perfect world".

[Quick Sand]

In my style most people move up the first few belt ranks within a year or a bit more so if someone walked in off the street and only saw that, they might get the wrong idea. Most people get to blue belt in a little over a year but almost everyone stays at blue for a full year, then a full year at purple, and about 2+ years total for our 4 levels of brown belt. In short form, you can get a blue belt in just over a year but it takes at least 5 years to get a black belt.

We also pay for our belt testing but it's the same fee for all as far as I know. It might go up a bit for brown and black belt testing but they are longer and more individual. I also have no problem paying $30 (CAN) for a belt test because our annual club fee is only $100 (CAN). Yeah, that's $100 for 3 classes a week for 8 months and one class a week for 4. (We're at a university so most students leave for the 4 month summer and the rest of us have to work so we reduce training during that time.) The testing fees help level out our low training fees.

The other thing I like about my club is that almost all the instructors teach classes and donate their time for free. Only a few of the very top people in the organization get paid. That means they really care about teaching us and promoting the art. They're not in it for the money because they don't get any. They teach our classes, organize and run our annual tournament and organize and run our summer camp. Including building most of our camp facilities by hand. They're a great bunch of people and I only hope that some day I might have the honour of joining them. :asian:

[DAC..florida]

OLD STYLE KARATE STARTED WITH AWHITE BELT AND NEVER CHANGED COLORS THIER BELTS HAVE JUST BECAME OLDER AND DIRTY. DO NOT JUDGE ANY STYLE OR SHCOOL BY HOW LONG IT TAKES TO REACH BLACK BELT IF YOUR TRAINING IN MARTIAL ARTS FOR A BELT YOUR TRAINING FOR ALL THE WRONG REASONS. MOST SHCOOLS TAKE ANYWHERE BETWEEN 4 -6 YEARS AVERAGE TO REACH THIS GOAL. IF THE SHCOOL YOUR CURRENTLY TAKES LONGER AT LEAST YOU'LL KNOW THAT YOUR RECIEVING MAXIMUM TRAINING AND THAT YOU HAVE EARNED YOUR BLACK BELT.


BE PATIENT AND TRAIN HARD!!!!!!!!!!!!!