Cung Le vs. Shamrock

[Xue Sheng]

I just read that this was an official main event for Strikeforce on 3/29

Is this true?

If so I really want to see this.

[punisher73]

According to MMAnews it is true, here is a link to the press release

http://www.mmanews.com/other/Press-Release:-Frank-Shamrock-vs.-Cung-Le-Set-For-Strikeforce.html


I can't wait to see this fight, but I wonder if Cung Le should have had some more MMA fights under his belt before taking this fight.

[Xue Sheng]

According to MMAnews it is true, here is a link to the press release

http://www.mmanews.com/other/Press-Release:-Frank-Shamrock-vs.-Cung-Le-Set-For-Strikeforce.html


I can't wait to see this fight, but I wonder if Cung Le should have had some more MMA fights under his belt before taking this fight.

Thanks for the link

Possibly, hard for me to say, I really do not follow MMA but I did watch Cung Le during his Sanshou days and in some of his first MMA fights and he is pretty talented. But from what I have got from looking around the web since this post Shamrock is damn good. Should be a good fight and one I will watch.

[still learning]

Hello, Wow! ..this should be the fight to watch!

Aloha, (could be about money too?)

[Blindside]

Personally I think they've built Cung Le up enough, I'm glad he is going to fight a name. Should be a great fight.

[Brian R. VanCise]

Even though Frank's career is certainly on the downward slope this could be a little more than Cung Le wants. Still Cung is impressive and has youth so it should be an interesting fight. Thanks for the head's up Xue!

[Blindside]

Even though Frank's career is certainly on the downward slope this could be a little more than Cung Le wants. Still Cung is impressive and has youth so it should be an interesting fight. Thanks for the head's up Xue!

Wiki has Cung Le at 34, Frank Shamrock is 36, I don't think the age gap is all that wide. :D

[Brian R. VanCise]

Wiki has Cung Le at 34, Frank Shamrock is 36, I don't think the age gap is all that wide. :D

Frank has a boat load of miles on his MMA body. Very different than what Cung has so far been through, very different! http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon6.gif

[Xue Sheng]

Frank has a boat load of miles on his MMA body. Very different than what Cung has so far been through, very different! http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon6.gif

I don’t know, Cung Le is the holder of several sanshou world titles and he has been fighting professionally since 1994. There are some miles there too, not to mention he also was a wrestler in High school

Record: 17-0, 12 KOs
Fight Weight: 175-180 lbs
Normal Weight: 185 lbs
Age: 34 years
Style: San Shou, Muay Thai, MMA

Cung Le (http://www.cungle.com/cungle/profile_cung.html)

[Kwan Jang]

I'm concerned that it's a little too soon in his MMA career for Cung to fight Frank. This fight will come down to who can control the setpoint. Another factor could be how well Frank's knee has recovered from his injury prior to the Baroni fight (he tore his ACL among other things). If Frank is not effective at take downs due to the knee or if Cung can keep it standing, he would be hard to beat, though Frank is actually a very good kicker and has great hands (which was FAR from the case back in his UFC days).

If Frank manages to get it to a groundfight, it could get very ugly, very fast for Cung. What most people don't think about with Cung is his skill set includes not only unparalleled kicking in MMA and great stand up in general, but also some of the best throws and takedowns in the business. When he fought Tony Frykland, Frykland was very timid about engaging Cung and risking the throwing skill of Le to try to take him where he wanted the be. He seemed more content to allow Cung to use his body and head for a kicking exhibition than to risk facing Cung's takedowns.

I have worked out with Frank many, many times over the last several years, though not in the last year and a half. He trained 2-3x /week at my instructors school for about eight years and whenever I came out to train (usually 3-4 weeks out of the year), we'd often be in the same workouts. Rather than being on a "downward slope in his fighting carreer", at least when I was working out with him, he had greatly improved from when we first started playing back in '99. I can't say anything one way or the other about where he is at currently though.

I know a lot of people think he has slipped because of the fight with Gracie, but knowing him and how he fights, I really see his explanation of that fight as the truth (or at the very least of how Frank sees it.) In other words, he was trying to just "play it safe' and never considered Gracie ANY threat and just a warm up fight that it was going along pretty much as he intended until Frank hit him with a foul and got DQ'ed. Was it the best strategy? In retrospect, obviously not.

Another factor is that he refuses to fight for Dana White and the UFC. I can tell you first hand that he really thinks that Dana does not treat or pay the fighters well (Frank's not alone in this opinion obviously) and that in the long run, Strikeforce and Scott Coker will be better for the sport. I hope so, though I admit a bit of bias since Scott and I were team mates and friends since we were in our teens, but if he gets a few good openings (like this promotion), I could well see him and his company/org. as one of THE major players in the future of MMA. Also, odds are that Frank is making as much money with Scott and Strikeforce as he would with the UFC and Dana (though I have NO personal knowledge of their financial dealings). If I were Frank, I would not see anything wrong with getting on the ground floor with someone I liked and respected that I thought was really going to go somewhere than to fight for comparable money for Dana, espcially when Frank has already been a 5x UFC champ.

[charyuop]

I am almost ashamed...but don't have the least clue who you are talking about. I must be one of the few Martial Artists that never watches MMA fights LOL.

[Xue Sheng]

I am almost ashamed...but don't have the least clue who you are talking about. I must be one of the few Martial Artists that never watches MMA fights LOL.

Cung Le was sanshou for years before going to MMA

Maybe this will help

Frank Shamrock (http://www.frankshamrock.com/)

Cung Le (http://www.cungle.com/sv/html/website/WebSite_8/m_main.jsp?&id=8)

[AceHBK]

....when I first read he title of this thread I thought Ken was going to fight...

I feel better now, I look forward to it.

[kidswarrior]

This may be the first MMA event I actually would pay to see. I'm not *anti* the sport, watch it on cable on and off, just not into pay per view. But this time ;) . Good find, X-S. Thanks.

[Xue Sheng]

UFC Frank Shamrock talked about Cung Le (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yOx1gwwgsA)

[Xue Sheng]

Cung Le Won
Le breaks Shamrock's arm, takes title (http://www.mercurynews.com/sports/ci_8747921)

[theletch1]

I knew Le had tremendous kicking power, but, damn, breaking Shamrocks' arm with a kick is just crazy. Glad to see that Ken was humble in defeat.

[Blindside]

I knew Le had tremendous kicking power, but, damn, breaking Shamrocks' arm with a kick is just crazy. Glad to see that Ken was humble in defeat.

Frank, not Ken. I'm not sure i have ever seen Ken be humble.

[terryl965]

I knew Le had tremendous kicking power, but, damn, breaking Shamrocks' arm with a kick is just crazy. Glad to see that Ken was humble in defeat.

Jeff it was Frank Shamrock and not Ken by the way, Yes Le kicks are devastating. Frank problem was he did not won't to take Le to the ground every time he did he let him up. Standing up with Le was a great chance for him to show his knockout power but it back fired on him.

[theletch1]

UM, I knew that. Frank, not Ken.:p

[terryl965]

UM, I knew that. Frank, not Ken.:p

We knew that you knew that we knew,OK:duh:

[masherdong]

Excellent fight from both corners! Too bad Frank got his arm broke, it would of been nice to see how the fight could of ended.

[Twin Fist]

Hmmm, maybe this will shut the Gracie fanbois up for a few minutes.

[Makalakumu]

Any vids of this fight up yet?

[exile]

This is a really, really interesting development.

For a long time, people have misused MMA results in their efforts to diminish one kind of martial art for the reputational benefit of another. I can recall any number of threads in which the success of grapplers in MMAs was taken as proof positive that traditional striking MA techs were inherently inferior to the grappling techs of the BJJ winners at that point. I can recall repeated taunts aimed at the striking TMAs from grappling advocates whose arguments basically came down to, if you can't make it work in the octagon, what makes you think you can use it in the street?

But outcomes like this show that like any other martial art, martial sport or martial anything, MMAs reward the fighter who's on his or her game on the day. There's no inherent advantage or disadvantage to the grappler or the striker. It's who's fighting, not their chosen fighting system. So much ink has been spilled, and so many bytes wasted, on a non-issue. Maybe this outcome will help lay that particular ghost—'if TMAs are so good, why don't they ever win in the arena?'—to rest. And if, someday, CL loses his title to another fighter, striker or grappler, possibly people will then understand that the reason was just that on that day, the other guy was better, and inherent MA superiority/inferiority had nothing to do with it...

[PictonMA]

Shamrock was a fool to stand for 3 rounds with someone as versatile and effective in kickng as Le.

After the first round when he proved he could stand with him he should have changed it up and really made an effort to take the fight to the ground and keep it there.

It was a good fight all around but I wasn't impressed by Shamrock's showmanship and foolishness in keeping the fight in standup.

[Xue Sheng]

This is a really, really interesting development.

For a long time, people have misused MMA results in their efforts to diminish one kind of martial art for the reputational benefit of another. I can recall any number of threads in which the success of grapplers in MMAs was taken as proof positive that traditional striking MA techs were inherently inferior to the grappling techs of the BJJ winners at that point. I can recall repeated taunts aimed at the striking TMAs from grappling advocates whose arguments basically came down to, if you can't make it work in the octagon, what makes you think you can use it in the street?

But outcomes like this show that like any other martial art, martial sport or martial anything, MMAs reward the fighter who's on his or her game on the day. There's no inherent advantage or disadvantage to the grappler or the striker. It's who's fighting, not their chosen fighting system. So much ink has been spilled, and so many bytes wasted, on a non-issue. Maybe this outcome will help lay that particular ghost—'if TMAs are so good, why don't they ever win in the arena?'—to rest. And if, someday, CL loses his title to another fighter, striker or grappler, possibly people will then understand that the reason was just that on that day, the other guy was better, and inherent MA superiority/inferiority had nothing to do with it...

Sanshou is not exactly a TMA but it very much comes from them and much of that is CMA, but I do agree

I have said for some time now that if you want to compare MMA to another MA you need to compare it to Sanshou. But Cung Le is a great fighter regardless of style so now we wait for the next match to see what happens.

And don't forget that sports Sanshou has some pretty hard takedowns as well as kicks and punches you have to worry about and Cung Le has another thing going for him, although it has been a while, he is not unaccustomed to grappling he has done it before in high school as a wrestler although I have no doubt he would prefer to keep his Sanshou game in the ring,

[MysticNinjaJay]

I really enjoyed the fight it was great! Cung was not well received by the MMA community for a long time because of bias against TMA and accusations of his San Shou record being padded.

This fight was like his initiation. Frank is a legend in MMA, arguably #1 p4p in his prime as the UFC MW champion. Cung was a 2 to 1 underdog coming into this fight. This when was very significant for his legacy.

There are still questions about his ground game. Frank has been hyping his standup for his last couple of fights and he looked good against Cung but he abandoned the ground because he wanted to prove he was on par with him on the feet. I think he wanted to settle a score as Cung was his training partner years back and used to beat up on him before he became knowledgeable about striking.

Cung's opponents from this point on should be Top 10 Middleweights. I'm expecting either Misaki or Santiago to be next. Gary Shaw will probably work on getting a match between Cung and Robbie Lawler, the EliteXC MW Champion. A dream matchup would be Cung Le vs. Anderson Silva but that won't happen so long as Cung sticks with Strikeforce.

[kidswarrior]

This is a really, really interesting development.

I can recall any number of threads in which the success of grapplers in MMAs was taken as proof positive that traditional striking MA techs were inherently inferior to the grappling techs of the BJJ winners at that point. I can recall repeated taunts aimed at the striking TMAs from grappling advocates whose arguments basically came down to, if you can't make it work in the octagon, what makes you think you can use it in the street? Well then, I guess San Shou would work on the street, eh? But the hardcore San Soo, or Sanda, that I believe it is derived from, has been doing well on the street and for the military/police for some time now, if I'm not mistaken.


Sanshou is not exactly a TMA but it very much comes from them and much of that is CMA, but I do agree

And don't forget that sports Sanshou has some pretty hard takedowns as well as kicks and punches you have to worry about...Exactly. And while I'm no expert, don't some of those sport take downs come from Shuai Jiao, itself a very effective TMA/CMA?

[exile]

Well then, I guess San Shou would work on the street, eh? But the hardcore San Soo, or Sanda, that I believe it is derived from, has been doing well on the street and for the military/police for some time now, if I'm not mistaken.

Exactly. And while I'm no expert, don't some of those sport take downs come from Shuai Jiao, itself a very effective TMA/CMA?

It's funny, but for some reason, those kinds of facts—or the particularly brutal application the Japanese Special Forces units have made of Shotokan karate (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=9171300151662938375&q=shotokan)—never seem to 'count' with the sort of person I have in mind. All you get is that same mantra over and over again.

But if CL continues on the path he seems to be on, you can imagine a new generation of MMAists adopting primarily striking weapons, having learned how to avoid going to the ground, and in a few years we may hear the same 'logic' from the other direction from those same people who have been confusing the practitioner with the art up till now: grappling is no good, it doesn't work in the ring... and it'll be the same mistake! :banghead:

[Xue Sheng]

Well then, I guess San Shou would work on the street, eh? But the hardcore San Soo, or Sanda, that I believe it is derived from, has been doing well on the street and for the military/police for some time now, if I'm not mistaken.

Exactly. And while I'm no expert, don't some of those sport take downs come from Shuai Jiao, itself a very effective TMA/CMA?

Your not mistaken, Sanda aka Sanshou is taught to the Chinese Military and is part of the training of Chinese police and it tends to be a bit more brutal than what you see in the ring but I still would not want to have to go up against a Sport Sanshou guy in the street either, if anyone has any doubt about it just watch any video on the web of Cung Le. Granted he is at the top of his game but if you look into a sports sanshou school just look at how hard those people train. They would not go quietly of that I am sure.

[14 Kempo]

There was a vid on YouTube of the fight, but it has been removed due to copyright issues. I would bet there are vids out there, however. I was able to see the third round prior to its removal. Looked like a good fight until Shamrock's arm broke.

[ares]

after watching the Le/shamrock fight I noticed 2 things. 1) Le out classed shamrock and took the fight seriously while shamrock seemed to just showboat and got punished for it.
2) Le is a force to be taken seriously. He kicked shamrock at will and played his own game not his rivals. I don't see anyone beating him. Not pride, ufc, or any other company has anyone to counter him. Impressive.

[exile]

after watching the Le/shamrock fight I noticed 2 things. 1) Le out classed shamrock and took the fight seriously while shamrock seemed to just showboat and got punished for it.
2) Le is a force to be taken seriously. He kicked shamrock at will and played his own game not his rivals. I don't see anyone beating him. Not pride, ufc, or any other company has anyone to counter him. Impressive.


Now the challenge will be for CL not to himself fall into the celebrity-fighter trap. The hardest thing for a successful competitor is probably staying hungry. If you don't, someone who is will come along and knock you off your perch.

[Xue Sheng]

Now the challenge will be for CL not to himself fall into the celebrity-fighter trap. The hardest thing for a successful competitor is probably staying hungry. If you don't, someone who is will come along and knock you off your perch.

Agreed but he didn't seem to let all the Sanshou championships go to his head so hopefully he won't let this go to his head either

[MysticNinjaJay]

There was a vid on YouTube of the fight, but it has been removed due to copyright issues. I would bet there are vids out there, however. I was able to see the third round prior to its removal. Looked like a good fight until Shamrock's arm broke.

Here's the full fight:

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x4w9i0_frank-shamrock-vs-cung-le-strikefor_sport

Dailymotion links usually stay up longer than Youtube ones.


after watching the Le/shamrock fight I noticed 2 things. 1) Le out classed shamrock and took the fight seriously while shamrock seemed to just showboat and got punished for it.

Frank showboats in all his fights. He did the same thing to Baroni and crushed him. Le did outclass him but Frank's choice to stand the duration of the match was his downfall. He wasn't there to do anything it takes to win he was fighting to prove his standup skills and superiority over Cung Le.

Cung was prepared for anything Frank tried against him. Had Frank tried to take the fight to the ground we may have seen a different fight.



2) Le is a force to be taken seriously. He kicked shamrock at will and played his own game not his rivals. I don't see anyone beating him. Not pride, ufc, or any other company has anyone to counter him. Impressive.

I think he is definitely the greatest striker in his weight class with the possible exception of Anderson Silva and a force but he's just now hit the MMA big leagues. All his opponents from now on should be Top 10 MWs and unlike Frank they will be willing to test Cung in all areas of the MMA game.

I think Cung's biggest strengths are striking and wrestling. We haven't seen him on his back so we won't know how he'll do until someone takes it there.
I think he can handily beat sluggers like Robbie Lawler and Rich Franklin. But good sub grapplers like Paulo Filho and Yoshihiro Akiyama would give Cung trouble. Matt Lindland would especially be tough because he is a better wrestler than Cung on paper with good submission skills. Yushin Okami and Nathan Marquardt are also strong wrestlers. Cung's takedown defense, which is good, would be essential in those fights.

Kazuo Misaki and Jorge Santiago are likely to be Cung's next opponents. Both are tough and should give him good fights.

Anderson Silva vs. Cung Le is a dream matchup. I think Cung could pull off a decision against him in an all out standup war. And ofcourse I wouldn't be surprised if Frank Shamrock wants a rematch, approaching it with a better gameplan (i.e. use his grappling as well as striking). It'll be interesting to see where Cung Le's MMA career goes from here.

[exile]

Agreed but he didn't seem to let all the Sanshou championships go to his head so hopefully he won't let this go to his head either

He may be that rare bird, the fighter who actually would rather fight than draw media attention to himself as a 'personality'. Let's hope so.