Bruce Lee, steroids and Hong Kong culture

[TaiChiTJ]

I don't know if any one else has posted this but it's an interview with the author of a book on Bruce Lee. It's on Chuck Sullivan's and Vic LeReaux's IKCA site. Apparently the entire contents of the book, as well as this video interview is published on their site. The interview brings up Bruce's use of then legal steroids and the success orientation that is drummed into young men growing up in Hong Kong. I found it interesting.

Its takes little time for the page to load, so be patient.


http://www.kenpohomestudycourse.com/kenpo/bleeker.htm


:ultracool

[exile]

Whoa.... that is a real eye-opener...

I never really imagined Lee as a steroid user, though I knew he was always pursuing new ways to increase strength and power. It wasn't the legality issue, which didn't exist at that time, but his appearance: towards the end of his life he always looked very muscular and cut, but never had the abdominal bloat that a lot of steroid-users in athletics seem to develop. And the other signs—the skin conditions and so on—weren't visible, I suppose, to those of us seeing him on the other side of the photo.

This looks worth reading, definitely.

[Christina05]

wow that is an eye opener. Never saw that one coming.

[kaizasosei]

still, i dont think steroids make you a better martial artist. may be good for strength or speed if that is desired. but bruce lees unique talent is not voided through the steriod abuse because it doesnt directly relate to martial arts proficiency. much of bruce lees famous strength and speed is just an illusion created by his extraordinary talent.

i do think however, that bruce lee would have still gotten much better and different from what we know, if it werent for his passing away.

[kaizasosei]

sorry 2
talent for fighting that is.. also his flicks were not bad

j

[JadecloudAlchemist]

I would like to know what steriods he used, how often what proof besides this guys claim. In my opnion this guy seems shady and looking for a quick buck.

[punisher73]

Steroids help with recovery time which is one of the ways that bodybuilder's can get so big so fast (yes, I understand the testosterone side of the equation also).

I have read through Bruce's training routines and he didn't train for size, so IF he did use them he would increase lean muscle but not to the extent that someone trying to "bulk up" would. If anything it would have helped him with the large training volume that he had. I think the reason bodybuilders have the "roid gut" is due to the LARGE quantities of both GH and steroids. If you look at BBer's from the same time period as Bruce you see flat muscular abs and not the distended bellies you see today.

Even IF Bruce used steriods....SO WHAT??? They aren't a magical pill that grants skill/talent. You still have to put in tons of hard work and effort to get to the level Bruce did. It would have helped him in other aspects of his training, but not in the areas that he is famous for. Also, it was legal to use them, we can't judge him based on current laws, ethics on the use of anabolics.

[Tames D]

I would like to know what steriods he used, how often what proof besides this guys claim. In my opnion this guy seems shady and looking for a quick buck.
If your referring to Tom Bleecker, your wrong. Tom is on the up and up. He's a long time highly respected Kenpo guy and author/screenwriter. After Bruce Lee died, Tom worked with Linda (Bruces wife) on some writing projects and started dating her and eventually married her.

[exile]

Steroids help with recovery time which is one of the ways that bodybuilder's can get so big so fast (yes, I understand the testosterone side of the equation also).

I have read through Bruce's training routines and he didn't train for size, so IF he did use them he would increase lean muscle but not to the extent that someone trying to "bulk up" would. If anything it would have helped him with the large training volume that he had. I think the reason bodybuilders have the "roid gut" is due to the LARGE quantities of both GH and steroids. If you look at BBer's from the same time period as Bruce you see flat muscular abs and not the distended bellies you see today.

Absolutely right, punisher. That was more the 'Frank Zane' era, when the V-shape, proportion and symmetry were highly valued. Even relatively 'big' guys like Schwarzenegger exhibited those properties, and successful pros in the very low 200lb range weren't uncommon. Something happened somewhere along the line that changed that...


Even IF Bruce used steriods....SO WHAT??? They aren't a magical pill that grants skill/talent. You still have to put in tons of hard work and effort to get to the level Bruce did. It would have helped him in other aspects of his training, but not in the areas that he is famous for. Also, it was legal to use them, we can't judge him based on current laws, ethics on the use of anabolics.

Excellent points, punisher. And my impression is, Bleeker certainly isn't making a value judgment on BL in the least; in his interview, he emphasizes the legality of those anabolic substances back in the day. People are viewing what Bleeker's saying the way Barry Bonds' fans responded to the original suggestions that he got a crucial advantage from using steroids, but it's not the same at all: everyone involved in the BALCO fiasco knew exactly how illegal what they were doing was, and did it anyway, because of the enormous profitability that these batting monsters brought to MLB. But as you say, that wouldn't have been the case with, nor point of, Lee's alleged steroid use at all. First of all, they were legal, and had actually been introduced into the U.S. by a sports medicine MD, John Ziegler, who had discovered their existence and use from conversations with East European team coaches, the Bulgarians in particular as I recall. Second, the appearance of increased musculature was almost certainly close to the bottom of Lee's list of priorities; I think he wanted to develop maximum strength, and as you say, he worked hard enough in his training that the accelerated recovery time would have been extremely important to him. I don't see any of it as evidence of a character flaw or anything remotely like that.

The question, what is Bleeker's evidence base for the claim?, is still a valid one. I suppose we'll all have to look at what he says in the book and decide just how much new evidence there is for him to draw the conclusions he did. ...

[Blindside]

Second, the appearance of increased musculature was almost certainly close to the bottom of Lee's list of priorities; I think he wanted to develop maximum strength, and as you say, he worked hard enough in his training that the accelerated recovery time would have been extremely important to him. I don't see any of it as evidence of a character flaw or anything remotely like that.


Why do you think that? Becoming an actor was a huge priority in Bruce Lee's life, and that amazing physique certainly added to his appeal. If anything that physique denotes a body builder approach to working out, not a functional strength approach.

Lamont

[Blindside]

I would like to know what steriods he used, how often what proof besides this guys claim. In my opnion this guy seems shady and looking for a quick buck.

I believe this book is now out of print, and it is being offered free online. Hard to make a buck that way.

Here is the link to a PDF of the book.
http://www.sanjosekenpo.com/UNSETTLEDMATTERS.pdf

[Xue Sheng]

Whether Bruce Lee used Steroids or not I do not know and if I read the book I still will not know. I do not know the source and as far as I know it has not been confirmed by anyone else.

And legal means what? Prescribed by a doctor, bought over the counter... what?

[Blindside]

And legal means what? Prescribed by a doctor, bought over the counter... what?

It means not proscribed by law.

[Xue Sheng]

It means not proscribed by law.

As silly as this may sound I actually do know the definition of legal

To obtain legally can also mean give to him in the form of a prescription by an MD. But not reading the book and to be honest having no intention to I am not sure what it says about it and as I said I could read it and still not be sure.

legal
1. permitted by law; lawful: Such acts are not legal.
2. of or pertaining to law; connected with the law or its administration: the legal profession.
3. appointed, established, or authorized by law; deriving authority from law.
4. recognized by law rather than by equity.
5. of, pertaining to, or characteristic of the profession of law or of lawyers: a legal mind.
6. Theology. a. of or pertaining to the Mosaic Law.
b. of or pertaining to the doctrine that salvation is gained by good works rather than through free grace.
7. a person who acts in a legal manner or with legal authority.
8. an alien who has entered a country legally.
9. a person whose status is protected by law.
10. a fish or game animal, within specified size or weight limitations, that the law allows to be caught and kept during an appropriate season.
11. a foreigner who conducts espionage against a host country while working there in a legitimate capacity, often in the diplomatic service.
12. legals, authorized investments that may be made by fiduciaries, as savings banks or trustees.

[exile]

Why do you think that? Becoming an actor was a huge priority in Bruce Lee's life, and that amazing physique certainly added to his appeal. If anything that physique denotes a body builder approach to working out, not a functional strength approach.

Lamont

Why do I think that? Well, he never did wind up with the huge, exaggerated muscular features totally out of proportion to his skeletal structure that a lot of bodybuilders who were on steroids developed. If you're taking steroids to develop enormous mass, for its own sake, you can do it over time, but again, what was valued æsthetically during that era was symmetry and proportion, not enormous size per se. If Lee had wanted to go that route, to develop that kind of mass, he would have had to spend a good deal more time focusing specifically on lifting weights and correspondingly less time on specifically MA training. Even if you're taking anabolic substances, you can't do everything, especially when the training requirements of the two activities are so different. Judging from how big he didn't get, and how sharply honed his MAs were throughout his life, I think there's reason to conclude that he chose to emphasize the latter rather than the former.

Yes, his physique added to his appeal, but not because of an exaggerated muscularity; rather, it was a combination of relatively impressive muscle mass with a very low bodyfat composition that made him so striking. He was cut. You're much more likely to swell up, as has already been noted, on very heavy steroid routines, than to trim down; for latter, you need major diuretics and metabolism accelerants. To me, the picture doesn't add up to someone striving for massive hypertrophy, but for respectable gains as part of a primarily MA-based training routine.

[Andrew Green]

Steroids can be used to get different results, not always the oversized look of bodybuilders.

Sprinters occasionally get busted for steroids as well, and they look nothing like bodybuilders.

One thing that steroids do is allow you to recover faster, so if you are taking them for bulk, and training for bulk, you'll get bulk faster. If you are training to be a endurance athlete, you won't get that. There are also many different varieties of steroids that do different things to the body.

He was in great shape, and did push himself hard. It's not that hard to imagine he used some form of steroid to help himself out.

Besides, I imagine a lot of actors use steroids nowadays, when they are illegal. Appearance is a part of the job, especially for action stars, they need to look the part of a "super hero".

I also thought that it was pretty well established the Bruce used some questionable drugs from time to time? What difference does steroids make?

Had he competed in a event that they where a banned substance then that would have been wrong, but he didn't. So it's just a personal choice, nothing wrong.

[JadecloudAlchemist]

Did anyone read the link Blindside provided?
Lets see it went from using steriods for a testicle problem to telling his Japanese girl-friend he has sexual problems to hurting his back from sex...
I stopped reading from there. Mr. Bleecker may be a " on the up and up"
but really why type of person goes around writing books about dead people hurting their back thru sex and testicle problems...
I would be more interested in the steriod use for performace by a someone other than Mr. Bleecker And I am very curious about Lee's Bagua training that Mr. Bleecker stated

[kaizasosei]

yeah, im on chapter 4 right now. i understand your point jadecloud, but i don't feel that the author is overly harmful. in light of the greater human hardships and horrors that bruce lee faced, a slight problem with testicles or back problem is nothing in comparison. the book doesnt directly attack bruce in anyway. actually, im not done reading it, but im quite touched by the intelligent and insightful undertones. the author mentions as the title says 'unsettled issues'
- i have still to read the rest, but too me, it seems that this is probably the closest anybody has come to attempting to understand bruce lee on a whole..
ok im still not finished so i hope i don't turn into that character from stephen king book turned movie-misery-about the captured author.

anyhow, i thought it a tad harsh to attribute brucelees immaturity to the testicle issue, although it may be some true, i am sure there are many factors that make someone to be immature or oblivious to important elements of life.
as is the case with many who rise to power, it seems that bruce lee also had many negative character traits. although he achieved some kind of mastery in the martial arts physically, mentally, he would have had a long and bumpy ride ahead of him even if he hadnt passed away so early.
it's natural for people to make mistakes, especially when they are young and immature. however, it's even more difficult when everything is televised and recorded. immature people often overestimate themselves while underestimating the power of the collective. i know this because i was also a little immature in my day.
i have always harboured some distrust for the inner circle of bruce lee..?.. i hope that i will understand even more after finishing the writing. however, the author in my opinion seems very trustable and sincere.

i mean if someone digs up a grave, theyre either really warped or they have a damn good reason. i don't know what exactly that may be. maybe it is simply to do justice by depicting the story in a truthful way.



j

j

[kaizasosei]

sorry i meant -unsettled matters- not issues as i had incorrectly written.

[Xue Sheng]

Question; Wasn't Tom Bleeker Linda Lee's second (now ex) husband?

[kaizasosei]

i finished reading the writing on bruce lee. i feel like the time i just saw 'the last emperor of china' as a child. ok. maybe not that bad.

what saddened me most was that it was exactly as i had imagined or worse. by worse i mean, i always sensed that bruce lee was very alone. i knew that he himself contributed to this by being so crazy, but i still thought that it was a sign that people were jealously setting him up for a fall. ironically, those that venerated him most are most suspect in my eyes, and some of those that confronted him directly were probably more helpful than anyone else. i know such situations can be difficult. but to end up so alone- and then have ones being exploited from every corner...


i totally agree with the points about jkd too. although there are some great principles and useful information presented in the books made from notes, im close to positive, as a martial artist, bruce lee would have not agreed to make those books in that way. i could be wrong. but i think that the very reason that he kept his notes away from the others was because there were aspects of himself that he was saving for later. like being spiriual or advancing to greater hights in the martial arts- who knows, maybe to create a complete ma system one day. - but to simply toss his notes out into the masses is almost like an insult from a martial arts point of view. i mean, if you know you cannot do something then don't bother trying. i cannot for example complete leonardo davinci notes and if i did, i would possibly have to dedicate my entire life to such a task.

but not say..he would have wanted it like that, without understanding the subject fully, might be somewhat condecending. it's subtle, but anyone who takes the martial arts seriously, will take brucelee seriously, no matter how big of a goof he was in his day, he was a revolutionary martial artist. anyone who is a good martialartist will respect at least those traits of bruce lee. not like i am trying to show brucelee in a good light. i opinion stands about his fighting timing and instincts, but as far as martial arts goes he was not that traditional. his skills were real. im sure that there were and are some that could defeat him in competitions at the time, but if he had continued, discovered the mental aspect of fighting, he could really have become even much better still(without the muscles).
just check out on youtube you can see people doing way more crazy stuff that lee did back in 70s. you have all kinds of martial artists,parkour, stunts etc. however, in my opinion there is hardly anyone with the movements and skill of brucelee let.


i am very thankful to the author for sharing this information that i had sensed since ages was swept under the rug. it's not just the fact and the telling of the story, it is the communication of the truth. not the truth like a fact. ultimately the term truth is more than just facts.
i sometimes thought of brucelee as a brother in some weird way but the amount of time and thought that has been put into this writing is clearly a display of great understanding as well as courage .

j