Were they right?

[Hand Sword]

Recently I had a conversation with some school mates on the topic of the martial Arts, and how they are done. They made the comment that the Asian countries are the ones who conduct the real training. I, at first, considered this more of the "my dad can beat yours", "our style is better" B.S., and took it in stride. Then, I started thinking it over, and combined with watching Fightquest, and Human Weapon, where good artists from here go through their training and complain of it "kicking their buts!" I know they might not be the best examples to use, but, compared to the average to good artists from here, if not better, they are at least on par. So, I asked myself-We're they right? Has a commercialised culture watered things down so much that even our best couldn't handle the "real training" of the Asian countries?

Thoughts?

[stone_dragone]

While the training that is featured in shows like Human Weapon (http://www.history.com/minisites/humanweapon) and Fight Quest (http://dsc.discovery.com/tv/fight-quest/fight-quest.html) is intense and sometimes brutal, I believe that two of the biggest factors that leads to "our best" being smoked throughout the training is simply the change in environment and change in routine. The hosts are, collectively, three athletes and a former soldier with some kickboxing training...all in good (great) shape, but I would daresay not truly examples of "our best" in my opinion.

I would give most anything to have the chance that the hosts of these shows are receiving, but then again I would be farther from said best example, too.

[kaizasosei]

weakness is everywhere just as one cannot know who will train hardest or to a high level. i don't mean to be philosophical but to really answer your question.

[Hand Sword]

While the training that is featured in shows like Human Weapon (http://www.history.com/minisites/humanweapon) and Fight Quest (http://dsc.discovery.com/tv/fight-quest/fight-quest.html) is intense and sometimes brutal, I believe that two of the biggest factors that leads to "our best" being smoked throughout the training is simply the change in environment and change in routine. The hosts are, collectively, three athletes and a former soldier with some kickboxing training...all in good (great) shape, but I would daresay not truly examples of "our best" in my opinion.

I would give most anything to have the chance that the hosts of these shows are receiving, but then again I would be farther from said best example, too.


I thought of that also, and hesitated to use them as "good examples" but, they hold their own admirably, and are doing the training, and in better shape than our average to good artists. It just made me consider what I've seen. I think the gap has widened. We tinker, mix and match, and water down so much and for so long that maybe the real ways have been forgotten or replaced? I mean reading and talking to good artists, they all say the same stuff when training "over there". It's so different and much harder than what they've experienced. Even the simple basics, and their execution. I dunno.

[punisher73]

I think it's a case of the "grass being greener..." And the new and exotic looking better. There are some differences though. Look at the places that they go to on those places. They usually go to the HEAD dojo or school or to put it better "the root source".

They could find schools/training like that here in the US, but where would the appeal be to the foreign locations, etc. Also, most schools here in the US are run parttime and aren't for students that have nothing else to do but train.

[shesulsa]

Caveat: I really can't know because I've never trained in Asia. I've heard sparkling conversation on this topic before and would like to post some things I've heard said so we can explore them here.

Taejoon Lee made the point once that some of the practices engaged in Asian countries and sub-culture would never be tolerated in American professional practice - that they would be against the law in many cases. But I have no way of knowing what the laws are in Korea, Japan and China when it comes to the parameters an instructor is given.

We've seen the video of the instructor with the shinai beating his students when they didn't have perfect form or their timing was off or ... just because he felt like it. Now ... WE don't see that as training. It's likely many people there don't either, but some older guys will nod and wistfully say ... "that's the old style of training."

Some folks here have trained in Asia ... perhaps they can shed some light on what is meant.

However, I've also heard it said that with rare exception the training in Asia now is not really that much better than it is here. One reason I've heard people cite is

[shesulsa]

However, I've also heard it said that with rare exception the training in Asia now is not really that much better than it is here. One reason I've heard people cite is

Oh wow - must have accidentally clicked on "Submit" when I left to drive the kids to school - LOL!

I actually meant to delete that last sentence fragment - sorry.

[Xue Sheng]

There is good and bad in the west and good and bad in the east.

I ran into an alleged Taiji master in China that was all set to train me until he found out my background (which he asked for) all of a sudden he did not know much push hands, was not an expert any longer, and only taught 24 form. I also ran into a Xingyiquan/Baguazhang master that scared the living daylights out of me just with a look (good xingyi people are very good at that) he was the real deal.

I have spared some very very good people in the US both and I have spared some very very bad people form the US

There is very good and very bad everywhere as well as all the degrees in between.

You can't base your views of either on a TV show.

[Laurentkd]

I think it is like everything else, there is good and bad everywhere you go.
For example"
I am very proud of how we train at my dojang here in the US.
My instructor's brother has lived in Korea for the past 8 years and he says that the majority of schools that he has found in Seoul consist of the master throwing a ball out for the kids to play with while he sits smoking in his office.
You could just as easliy find good schools in Asia and poor ones in the US.

[Brad Dunne]

As has been stated, there's good and bad training everywhere. There's one major difference between here and there and that mindset. Now I say this with the consideration that all things being equal, their focus on training is different then most folks here in the U.S. I've heard the stories about Korea and how they seem to give belts away. The same can and has been said of Japanese karate in Japan. Not to belabor the point, folks overseas don't deal with the way our society runs and it's built in restrictions. It hasen't been all that long ago that training here, not only in MA's schools but even the military was tough. In both venues, pain was a training tool and it had it's place for many years. I'll bet a dollar to a doughnut, that the senior practicioners here (the over 55 folks), could attest to this application. You messed up once and you were gifted with some sort of painful reminder and in the next installment, it was highly unlikely that you would make the same mistake again. Crude perhaps, but very affective. That element has been removed from both segments, MA's training and the military training as well.

[Xue Sheng]

As has been stated, there's good and bad training everywhere. There's one major difference between here and there and that mindset. Now I say this with the consideration that all things being equal, their focus on training is different then most folks here in the U.S. I've heard the stories about Korea and how they seem to give belts away. The same can and has been said of Japanese karate in Japan. Not to belabor the point, folks overseas don't deal with the way our society runs and it's built in restrictions. It hasen't been all that long ago that training here, not only in MA's schools but even the military was tough. In both venues, pain was a training tool and it had it's place for many years. I'll bet a dollar to a doughnut, that the senior practicioners here (the over 55 folks), could attest to this application. You messed up once and you were gifted with some sort of painful reminder and in the next installment, it was highly unlikely that you would make the same mistake again. Crude perhaps, but very affective. That element has been removed from both segments, MA's training and the military training as well.

Many years ago my first Sifu said one of his biggest problems when he first came from China to the US and started teaching was that he could not hit anyone if they messed up. He also felt he had to go much easier on us here in the US if he wanted to have students. In China it is pretty much the opposite, if you are not hard on your students they will go look for another Sifu. He taught an old style Chen class once, the last one he ever taught, close to what he was use to, it started with 60 students in 2 classed and ended up with only 6 of us. That was the last class he ever did hard and strict training

My first Sifu has taken this take it easy on your students to the extreme and he now has a whole lot of money and a whole lot of pathetic students who all think they are masters.

He had major problems with his wife when she came here because she was from a martial arts family and trained in a Wushu academy and competed and trained at a higher level than he did in China and they argued constantly about his going easy on people. Eventually she lost the argument and she was relegated to teaching only Mulan fan and nothing else. But I will admit training Long Fist with her was very hard but a complete blast, but few shared my view in that school.

[JadecloudAlchemist]

Has a commercialised culture watered things down so much that even our best couldn't handle the "real training" of the Asian countries?
I have trained in Asian countries two things really come to mind.
1. I find training to be more with polite manners 2. The idea of studying martial arts is not about hurting people. From the schools that I have seen in my area most schools follow a get rich scheme or train to cripple someone. That is not to say I have not seen some schools in America who do not follow that trend nor does it say all Asian countries teaching martial arts follow the 2 things I mention. I think training is training it is the school and teacher who make it a challange or "tough". You can take most likely any two of the same martial art form different countries for example one may have students run up a hill while the other may just have them practice a set pattern.

[IcemanSK]

I've not trained in Asia either, so I don't know first hand. There was an article in BB recently by one of their feature writers. He said that many Americans who go to Japan or Korea looking for the "ultimate training experience" often come home disappointed. The reason it is for many is that they expect that training in the home of the Art is the best physical work out. The author suggested that, in most cases, one can get just as good or better work out in a school in the US. The author suggests that one reason to go to the country of origin to train is if one wants to connect with the historical & philosphical details of your art. That is generally where the author says is the most "bang for your buck" for training in Asia.

Searching for the historical & philosophical connections would be my reason for training in Asia.

[hemi]

Recently I had a conversation with some school mates on the topic of the martial Arts, and how they are done. They made the comment that the Asian countries are the ones who conduct the real training. I, at first, considered this more of the "my dad can beat yours", "our style is better" B.S., and took it in stride. Then, I started thinking it over, and combined with watching Fightquest, and Human Weapon, where good artists from here go through their training and complain of it "kicking their buts!" I know they might not be the best examples to use, but, compared to the average to good artists from here, if not better, they are at least on par. So, I asked myself-We're they right? Has a commercialised culture watered things down so much that even our best couldn't handle the "real training" of the Asian countries?

Thoughts?


You know I was watching one of those shows the other day and was thinking some of the same things at first. In this episode they sent two American guys to train, live with, and fight against monks in China. Some of the training tools used by the monks and methods were extreme and amazing to watch them perform. While the American guys struggled in some areas and just were not up to the task in some cases. It at first looked like they set out to make the American guys look bad or weak even though one of them had some experience in MMA.

As I watched I was blown away by some of the forms and movements of the monks. I felt like a kid again watching Karate Kid for the first time. I study Kenpo and I love my style but Kung Fu has always been a fascination of mine. I was and still am very impressed by the speed, power, form, and raw will of the monks. But when it came time to spar with the Americans I was kind of let down by the performance of the monks. At first glance I thought wow these monks are going to wipe the floor with the American guys. They had experience and were martial artists but how much can you really pick up in a few days or even a month. Compared to the monks that start out at a very young age and train all day every day you would think they would be incredible fighters.

Now the monks did have very fast kicks great form were very limber and in great shape. But when the larger and more experienced of the two American guys fought in his match I really think he should have won that fight. He threw his opponent out of the ring more than once. He pushed him around the ring and at one point really rattled the monk and had him stunned. I guess it’s not fair to compare all of the monks fighting ability based on these two fights. But I was really expecting more from them than what they put on the show. That and they may have off camera asked the monks to not kill these two in the fight it makes for bad ratings. :lol2:

[FearlessFreep]

. But when it came time to spar with the Americans I was kind of let down by the performance of the monks. At first glance I thought wow these monks are going to wipe the floor with the American guys. They had experience and were martial artists but how much can you really pick up in a few days or even a month. Compared to the monks that start out at a very young age and train all day every day you would think they would be incredible fighters.


We've talked about that in the TKD forum but I've seen some of the Karate and Judo matches as well and you can tell that the trained artists in their arts are really pulling their punches, so to speak, against the show hosts

[terryl965]

Let me chime in here training in the old country is nothing like it was 30 years ago and training here in the states are not like it was 30 years ago. The mind set has went away from actual training to conditioning, people see only fit people to be the Ultimate weapon no more can a little chubby guy be any good in there eyes. So the focus has swifted from training hard to training Looking good.

[Xue Sheng]

We've talked about that in the TKD forum but I've seen some of the Karate and Judo matches as well and you can tell that the trained artists in their arts are really pulling their punches, so to speak, against the show hosts

I would have LOVED to see them jump into a professional Sanda/Sanshou tournament in Beijing and then see how well they did, instead of the Shaolin Sanda match with a young kid.

But then the shows host getting quickly beat to a pulp does not make for good TV now does it.

[jim777]

I would have LOVED to see them jump into a professional Sanda/Sanshou tournament in Beijing and then see how well they did, instead of the Shaolin Sanda match with a young kid.

But then the shows host getting quickly beat to a pulp does not make for good TV now does it.

Maybe not to the core History Channel audience, but I think all of us would get a kick out of watching it :lol:

[tempus]

Also, a lot of those shows they go to places where the martial art is also the way life. Some of the people do it all day every day. I know some stuff based on my 2 to 3 night a week traning, but I bet I would be ripped and a better martial artist if I could train 4 to 5 hours a day.

-Gary

[Laurentkd]

Let me chime in here training in the old country is nothing like it was 30 years ago and training here in the states are not like it was 30 years ago. The mind set has went away from actual training to conditioning, people see only fit people to be the Ultimate weapon no more can a little chubby guy be any good in there eyes. So the focus has swifted from training hard to training Looking good.


I think Master Stoker is right on here. Training is not the same in the US as it was 30 years ago (for better or worse) and I am sure that the same is true in Asia. However, we probably still evision this old style training going on over seas and so think what we have is inferior. It's all about finding the right instructor, regardless of where he happens to live.

[terryl965]

I think Master Stoker is right on here. Training is not the same in the US as it was 30 years ago (for better or worse) and I am sure that the same is true in Asia. However, we probably still evision this old style training going on over seas and so think what we have is inferior. It's all about finding the right instructor, regardless of where he happens to live.

Very well said lauren

[Xue Sheng]

Also, a lot of those shows they go to places where the martial art is also the way life. Some of the people do it all day every day. I know some stuff based on my 2 to 3 night a week traning, but I bet I would be ripped and a better martial artist if I could train 4 to 5 hours a day.

-Gary

Yup, in Beijing seeing your Sifu 5 to 7 days a week is common

[Xue Sheng]

I think Master Stoker is right on here. Training is not the same in the US as it was 30 years ago (for better or worse) and I am sure that the same is true in Asia. However, we probably still evision this old style training going on over seas and so think what we have is inferior. It's all about finding the right instructor, regardless of where he happens to live.

Agreed, I frankly do not think I will find a Taiji instructor that is better than the one I have anywhere.

And 30 years ago it was different

[IcemanSK]

I think Master Stoker is right on here. Training is not the same in the US as it was 30 years ago (for better or worse) and I am sure that the same is true in Asia. However, we probably still evision this old style training going on over seas and so think what we have is inferior. It's all about finding the right instructor, regardless of where he happens to live.

Well said Master Lauren! I think you hit on something that I couldn't articulate in my first post. Finding the right instructor is crucial: the rest is what we make it.

I think many of us (ok, me) have had times when we looked over to another place & figured that the "grass was greener" over there. But wherever we go, the grass will look greener somewhere else.

[still learning]

Hello, Yes the training ways in America is not the same as many Asian countries.

One reason: Time ...most schools here only train for 2-3 days a week and for 1-3 hours each day the most. (In many places in Asia they train everyday and for long hours.

Two: Most Amercian students will quit once the training gets lots of full contact type of training ( most people do not like getting beat up or hurt at every class.) In Asia it is accepted as NORMAL training.

The intensity it usually harder in Asian countries.

Our Judo Sensi...said if I train today students how I had learn? ...I will have NO students today. (they/old days would do one technique over and over till they got it right or correct...same throw over and over...sometimes for hours long. Lots of repetitions! Tons of it!

Teacher were usually stricter and expected lots of loyality and demended hard work and long hours of training over and over....NO quiting or giving up......Today any student can quit anytime with NO recourse either....

Some Teachers still enforce some of the old ways.....many do lose alot of students. ( They have one school in Kona....once they went back to hard full contact sparring daily...students ending up quiting one by one..till a few hard core guys are left)

Black belts from Japan, China, Okinawa, and other Asian countries....compare to American Black Belts? Over all?

UM? Aloha -

PS: There is Schools in Amercia that is very hard core....

Lots of schools are also just a business pushing out Black belts

What is a TRUE black belts?

[Hand Sword]

sooo......They we're right?

[Adept]

Well, surely it all depends on how you define 'better', right?

I mean, I haven't watched Fight Quest or Human Weapon, and I haven't trained in Asia either, but I'd feel confident putting money on someone like Tank Abbot over a Shaolin Monk any day of the week.

Of course, how you qualify the term 'better' is going to depend on the paramaters we use. Are we talking about the person we'd most want to have on our side in a bar room brawl? Or the most competent fighter under MMA rules? Or the person with the best conditioning?

Sure, the hosts in the show might not be up to scratch. But how well would those monks cope in the UFC? How long would they last in a boxing ring? Does it really matter?

It's all well and good to say the training in Asia is 'better'. But it begs the question; better at what?

[Xue Sheng]

If you go to Shaolin to train with a monk it is likely a good bet they are as good as or better than anyone in the US (that was not trained at Shaolin or by the Chinese Government) at Contemporary Wushu.

If you are going to Shaolin to learn Wing Chun, Xingyiquan, Tongbei, Changquan or any other CMA for fighting you are better off staying in the US or going to some other part of China and finding a real teacher of these arts. But it is very much buyer beware there are charlatans everywhere looking for the Western buck so be careful. Real good, better than the average, martial arts teachers generally do not advertise and they generally do not speak much English either when you are talking China.

But as to finding the real fighting styles in the US; Well of course you can find them but it is not easy and there are martial artists and martial arts teachers in the US that are as good as any you will find in the East (depending on style in my opinion). But if you can train in the East as apposed to the West in general you will have more time training with your Sifu in China, I cannot speak for Japan or Korea.

My Taiji teacher is from China but teaches here and I am thoroughly convinced I will not find a better one in China or anywhere else, maybe as good but not better.

When I trained Wing Chun my teacher was an American and I was very impressed with his skill and I would not go looking for a better teacher in China either, I might find one that is more skilled in China but I might find one in America too. His teacher is of the IP family and I imagine is better than him and I believe his teacher lives in China. But there is allegedly a gentleman an hour north of me that does not advertise, takes only advanced students is suppose to be very good and was a student of Ip Man and he is in the US.

My first CMA Sifu is also from China and teaches mainly Wushu and he is ok but I know there are better in this country (his wife is a better teacher actually) and much better in China. My first CMA Sifu now claims to teach Chinese martial arts and I know there are much better than him in the same town. My most recent Xingyi Sifu was an American a good fighter and I am certain there are better Xingyiquan teachers than him in both the US and China, but he was not bad at Xingyiquan.

There is good and bad in both America and Asia and you need to be careful when choosing a teacher in both America and Asia. Just because the teacher is Chinese, Japanese or Korean does not mean they are any good.

I went to check out a Hapkido a few years back that was run by a Hapkido master from Korea who I assume was fairly good in Korea but after years in the US his school and his students were pathetic. I have checked out a bunch of TKD schools in my area and I have seen a few run by Korean nationals and the best one in my area is run by an American, who also teaches hapkido I found out afterwards. Iwas invited to watch a class and that too was very impressive.

In Beijing there is now an MMA school run by a retired (I think) LEO from America and he also has a partner that teaches Muay Thai. Is this school not as good at MMA as an American School or is the Muay Thai not as good as you would get in Thailand? To be honest I do not know I do not train either but if you have a school like that in Beijing and advertising it I am guessing you are pretty good because you may get challenged from time to time.

Bottom-line it does not matter where the teacher is from just what he/she knows and in their ability to teach, that is all.

[YoungMan]

Perhaps 50 years ago, but today martial arts schools around the world are just as good as the ones run in the native countries.
Whe we didn't know how to do karate or Tae Kwon Do, then yeah, Japan and Korea had the lock on quality because they had the talent.
But today, with 50 years+ of Instructors migrating and teaching, there is no monopoly in those countries on the quality of Instruction. In fact, you're better off finding traditional Tae Kwon Do schools outside Korea, especially those affiliated with a Kwan.

[still learning]

Hello, One way to really find out....is going there and experience the Asian ways of training

Or have challenges/tournaments between countries? Full contact?

Aloha

PS: So many martial arts all over the world.....too hard to compare because of the many styles of teaching? ...which is better?

Most likely the one that works for your in a REAL situtions..? this is the most important thing...not the training in other places.