Charging after reaching black belt?

[ArmorOfGod]

How many here attend martial arts schools that continue to charge monthly dues after one hits (1st dan) black belt level?
How do you feel about that, either way?

AoG

[Danny T]

How many here attend martial arts schools that continue to charge monthly dues after one hits (1st dan) black belt level?
How do you feel about that, either way?

AoG
It depends.
Because we provide instruction in several different training systems when someone black belts in one and wants training in another they paid the fee for that training. If they simply want to continue training in the first art they are encouraged to help and many do. These get a discounted rate. Those who stay and continue to train but don't do any instructing do so but their rate of discount is not the same as those who help. We have a few multiple system black belts who assist, instruct, and do most anything that is needed and pay nothing and then we also have a couple who are actually Paid!

The schools I attended also continued to charge dues for training afterall you are still learning, using the facility and equipment, cost for insurance and you are still learning from your instructors. I know many also are doing some instruction for the school. Ok aren't you still learning? Developing your instructional skills as well as honing and refining your martial skills. That is why we reduce the cost for those who help assist and instruct at our training center. They still pay something because they are still learning and most are still training in some of the other arts we instruct in.

Danny

[Blindside]

Our black belts are not charged a tuition fee. We are adding to the school by assisting in instructing the students. That said, I would have zero problem paying a tuition fee should the studio finances require it.

Lamont

[SenseiBear]

At one point the standard was after blackbelt you don't pay, but that changed about 10 years ago. I don't mind paying - because even though I assist my instructor, I am still learning from him as well, and even instructing the lower ranks helps me learn.

Plus, my instructor isn't making money off the deal... mostly he teaches to share his art. The money charged is to pay for using the community center we have been training in. - I can afford the $20 a month. (and he is willing to make arrangements for people who can't)

[Big Don]

My instructor charges everyone the same price, except he doesn't. He teaches because he loves to and when people fall into financial hard times, he often quits charging them, there are a few of the teens who clean the dojo in exchange for their classes. That being said, since your learning doesn't stop as soon as you reach Black Belt, neither does your billing, you're still being taught, you still need to pay.

[jks9199]

We've typically charged black belts, unless they find themselves as the instructors of the class, like happened to me. I stopped paying when I became the instructor... and proceeded to spend more than I ever payed each year on material and equipment...

[Guardian]

Reach Blackbelt is just the beginning, so I have to say paying for that learning is the way to go. Now for those who mentioned financial difficulties and such and not paying, that's cool in my view and honorable of those teachers in my view.

G

[Tez3]

I paid monthly for a long time after gaining my black belt simply because the clubs finances were such we needed the money. I don't pay now as we are a bit better off but I still buy materials and kit as jks said. My instructor would help anyone that was in financial difficulties to enable them to stay training but we have a few who take advantage of his good nature. They ask for kit, Gis etc and when they get them, put them on the kids they say 'oh we'll pay at the end of the month okay', so what are we supposed to do? Take the suit off the kids bck and say you get the suit when you pay? (TBH I would but my instructor wouldn't) These are people who aren't short of money, those that are don't order kit until they've saved for it bless them. We had a grading 3 weeks before Christmas, one parent said she forgot the grading fee (modest) and the subs for the week before and would bring it in the next week. We knew she wouldn't be in before Christmas and wasn't in this week either. I have to say sometimes McDojo type contracts seem quite attractive lol! I often end up putting money in to make up what the club needs to keep going.

[Kacey]

I don't charge my assistant instructor (the only other black belt in my class) dues, but in other classes, especially classes (rather than schools) run out of other facilities, it's not always possible to not charge - when I first started teaching as an assistant, I was running a kids' class for a man who taught out of an athletic club, who wanted to allow students in who weren't members of the athletic club - so they had to pay, regardless of their rank, or the athletic club wouldn't let them in; it was the way their finances worked.

Whether or not black belts should pay dues is another matter. Black belts who are regularly assisting with instruction should receive some form of compensation whenever possible - could be not paying dues, or extra sessions with the instructor, or something similar - but it's not always possible. Black belts who are not regularly assisting with instruction are students - and students should pay dues, I think.

[MJS]

I don't think you should be charged once you reach black belt. My last school had that policy. We taught a few classes in exchange for not paying anything.

[Jin Gang]

In depends on what you think you're paying for, and what "black belt" means in your school. If black belt is the peak of achievement, and you have learned everything there is to know in your style, then I guess you wouldn't expect to pay anymore. Or if you're teaching more often than you are learning, then you probably shouldn't be paying anymore.
In most schools nowadays, black belt isn't the end, it's just the beginning. If payment is for instruction, and you're still learning new things, then you'd expect to keep paying.
Alternatively, it may be more accurate to see the school fees as "dues" which keep the place open. If you want to have a place to train, you've got to contribute. I think it's rare to find a good school that can afford not to charge dues from every student, most places aren't doing much better than breaking even, if that.

[searcher]

I won't charge a BB if they are teaching or assisting with classes, but if they are not helping in some way, then I charge them. If you contribute, then that is your payment. Parts of this may change as I prepare to start a new class at the YMCA. We are going to run classes there on Mondays and the Y will be doing the charging, nto me.

[dancingalone]

My sensei charges everyone a nominal fee. He's told me he would charge nothing if it weren't for human nature. If the classes were entirely free he's afraid people wouldn't respect their worth and they would not take their training seriously. Works for me. Sensei is one of the best teachers I've seen, and I've moved a lot around the country so I've trained in lots of dojos. I would pay whatever he asked but luckily his fee amounts to a couple of pizzas a month.

[jks9199]

My sensei charges everyone a nominal fee. He's told me he would charge nothing if it weren't for human nature. If the classes were entirely free he's afraid people wouldn't respect their worth and they would not take their training seriously. Works for me. Sensei is one of the best teachers I've seen, and I've moved a lot around the country so I've trained in lots of dojos. I would pay whatever he asked but luckily his fee amounts to a couple of pizzas a month.
I've noticed that, too... When you offer your time freely, no one wants to take advantage of it. Charge $30 for the Saturday morning session, and suddenly, everybody makes it...

As to black belts and fees vs. contribution... One more point to remember or be aware of is the simple fact that there can't be but so many teachers, and you can't have everyone not paying because "they're contributing" or "they're black belts" or you won't be able to keep the doors open... Landlords seldom accept "they're contributing service, not paying" as justifaction for late rents...

[green meanie]

I stop charging my students once they reach black belt.

[LawDog]

After a person attains the ability of a black belt his / her training should be on a higher / advanced level. Because of this a school instructor has to spend more quality time with the schools Dan ranks.
When you leave high school and go to college you begin paying on a very high scale.
Everyones time is worth something so if a black belt is teaching at a school then maybe he should have to pay or should be paid, if he is not than he is a student like everyone else.
About three quarters of my adults class are students of black belt level. If they all stopped paying then I would have closed my doors decades ago.

[Kacey]

My sensei charges everyone a nominal fee. He's told me he would charge nothing if it weren't for human nature. If the classes were entirely free he's afraid people wouldn't respect their worth and they would not take their training seriously. Works for me. Sensei is one of the best teachers I've seen, and I've moved a lot around the country so I've trained in lots of dojos. I would pay whatever he asked but luckily his fee amounts to a couple of pizzas a month.

This is a very valid point. In addition to the point you've made, about people not taking their training seriously, people tend to not take their instructor's time seriously either - it's much harder to not show up for a class you've paid for; if you haven't paid, it's much easier to decide something else comes first. Something you've paid for up front is much harder to avoid than something you pay for when you show up, or don't pay for at all.


After a person attains the ability of a black belt his / her training should be on a higher / advanced level. Because of this a school instructor has to spend more quality time with the schools Dan ranks.
When you leave high school and go to college you begin paying on a very high scale.
Everyones time is worth something so if a black belt is teaching at a school then maybe he should have to pay or should be paid, if he is not than he is a student like everyone else.
About three quarters of my adults class are students of black belt level. If they all stopped paying then I would have closed my doors decades ago.

I agree with this as well. When you pay dues, you are not paying the instructor, per se; an instructor teaches because he enjoys teaching. You are paying for the training facility, the equipment, insurance, and yes, the instructor's time and knowledge. To continue LawDog's analogy - would you expect to attend college classes for free, or would you expect to pay the professor for his/her time and effort?

If the instructor chooses to accept payment in work for the school, then I think that's a reasonable exchange - but it's up to the instructor. I chose to accept payment in teaching services from my assistant instructor, because he spends a lot of class time teaching instead of training - but he would have been willing to pay had I not chosen to do that, and had, in fact, been paying for dues for about a year after he became my assistant.

[Jdokan]

I agree with Lawdog...All students should pay a fair equitable amount....What I object to is when students pay a different amount based upon their ability to pay....Dr can afford more so they get charged more...I seen situations where 5-6 guys all pay different amounts...eventually the word gets out and they get a little miffed....

[jks9199]

I agree with Lawdog...All students should pay a fair equitable amount....What I object to is when students pay a different amount based upon their ability to pay....Dr can afford more so they get charged more...I seen situations where 5-6 guys all pay different amounts...eventually the word gets out and they get a little miffed....
Why?

If the rules are known up front, who cares what someone else is paying? If it's kept a secret, that's a different problem.

[Kacey]

I agree with Lawdog...All students should pay a fair equitable amount....What I object to is when students pay a different amount based upon their ability to pay....Dr can afford more so they get charged more...I seen situations where 5-6 guys all pay different amounts...eventually the word gets out and they get a little miffed....

I disagree. I teach for a YMCA, and half my students receive a scholarship of some amount or other, which pays for part of their dues, based on their ability to pay. I don't have a problem with it, and neither do any of my students.


Why?

If the rules are known up front, who cares what someone else is paying? If it's kept a secret, that's a different problem.

This is, I think, the key - it has to all be out in the open, to avoid problems from the beginning.

[still learning]

Hello, All martial arts schools is a business first. The dues helps pay for the cost of running the shools.

(each school can set their own policies for Black belts dues)

Some schools are non-profit and /or have little or NO rent. They can be more flexible for dues...

Just because you became a BLack Belt...you learning stops..therefore NO more dues? ....NOT true...Your learning will reach another level that is ALL.

Each Owner/Teacher...it will be always be their choice of collecting dues from ALL students reguardless of ranking.

For us..our Instructor..is different from other Instructors in the same system...he give my family a very low rate....( I give back by assisting his classes/at times running the school when he is unable to attend)

We still pay dues...lower rates/ those who stay still pay the same rates when they started...new students start at higher rates...but never goes up...Our Instrutor does not make dues a big issue....teaching is much more important!

Aloha, ( dues and black belt? ..Teachers choice)

[Empty Hands]

To continue LawDog's analogy - would you expect to attend college classes for free, or would you expect to pay the professor for his/her time and effort?

Well, if you are the one teaching the class, it is a little unfair to charge you for the privilege. If you do the work, you should be compensated for it in some way - anything else is exploitation. The business is for profit (for most of us here), and the school head is making his living from it. If you as an instructor are helping him or her to make that profit, then you should be paid somehow.

[Kacey]

Well, if you are the one teaching the class, it is a little unfair to charge you for the privilege. If you do the work, you should be compensated for it in some way - anything else is exploitation. The business is for profit (for most of us here), and the school head is making his living from it. If you as an instructor are helping him or her to make that profit, then you should be paid somehow.

As I said - if the student in question is making payment in services, not a problem - that's what my assistant instructor does. However, if the student is not making payment in services, then s/he should pay dues.

[Nomad]

We pay monthly dues after black belt. I wasn't paying to get the belt, I was paying for the day-to-day quality instruction, and I haven't seen that change now that I have a different belt around my waist, so see no reason why it should be different. It also helps support our dojo and ensures that I continue to have a great environment to train in. I have no problems whatever with it.

[ejaazi]

We continue to pay dues for as long as we train. It is how we support the dojo, which also includes its upkeep. I do not have a problem with it at all. In some Aikido schools, those who are instructors sometime have a reduced fee when it comes to paying dues and they don't seem to mind either.

[Bigshadow]

How many here attend martial arts schools that continue to charge monthly dues after one hits (1st dan) black belt level?


Where I train, I get charged by the class I attend.


How do you feel about that, either way?

AoG

Just because I have gotten beyond 1st Dan, doesn't mean I have stopped learning. My teacher is always *that* far ahead of me. Therefore, I am always learning. I have no problems with it. In fact, the training is worth far more than I can afford to pay, IMO.

[arnisador]

It happens where I take JKD. But, I'm not expected to teach so it seems fair to me.

[IcemanSK]

I think that BB's paying for class is as important as any student payng for class. As has been mentioned above, people value what costs them something. I feel BB's should either pay the regular fee, or have the expectation on them that they help teach.

I charge half of what the cheapest school in my town charges, & I still have scholarship students. Yet, everyone pays something. This is important because I feel that without a monetary investment, there is less "buy in" to what they are learning.

[Grenadier]

At our school, everyone pays tuition.

However, those who are either instructors or assistant instructors can teach for $$$. Equally as important, an assistant instructor also gets a modest fee for each class that he assists in consistently.

[stickarts]

I don't automatically stop charging when a student earns Black Belt although they do have an opportunity to teach to help work off their tuition. This seems fair to me.

[TheArtofDave]

Unless the student reached instructor level, and was then being compensated for it according to what the teacher could afford I could see how the student stopped paying. Otherwise, I believe the student should pay while he is learning to instruct as the learning process never ends.

[diamondbar1971]

I agree, as long as you are learning you should pay. why should you stop paying just because you have achieved another belt rank. Martial arts is a constant journey and learning is a part of that journey. If one is so upset that he or she should pay after
reaching black belt, then start your own school and then you can do the charging.