Young Black Belts

[chinto01]

Hello all. I know there have been threads before on this subject but I want to get your opinions on wether or not there is an appropriate age that a student should be promoted to black belt? Should anyone under the age of 18 be required to be a junior black belt and learn a modified cirriculum in the system they are in? The reason I ask is because we are seeing more and more young black belts who may not be mature enough to carry the responsibility associated with the rank they now wear. Let me back this up by an example. A teenager that I know was recently promoted to black belt. We were at a gathering over the holidays and what I witnessed disgusted me. At this gathering someone was sitting in a chair that he wanted to sit in. After a verbal exchange the person in the chair refused to move which he should have done. In anger the he grabbed the person in the chair by the neck and removed him. I was shocked at what I saw. It made me wonder if giving this individual a black belt has "just given the gun to the baby" for lack of a better phrase. There are other instances of where this same person has displayed actions that an older black belt may not display. Any thoughts? What should be done to someone like this ? Are there other instances like this or am I being a little to picky in my expectations of a black belt?

In the spirit of bushido!

Rob

[Kacey]

This is always a difficult question. Do I believe that teens cannot be black belts? No - they can, and they can be good ones. Do I believe that there is more to rank thank physical ability? Good lord, yes! IMHO, teaching anyone anything that could potentially injure another person - martial arts, how to drive a car, to be a doctor, whatever - includes the responsibility to teach the student how to use those skills appropriately.

I realize that there are plenty of people who disagree with me, who say that a martial arts instructor has no more responsibility to teach ethical/moral usage than an aerobics instructor - and if that works for you, great! For me, however, I feel that I have the responsibility to teach my students how and when to apply their skills as much as the skills themselves - and if I feel that a student will not use those skills appropriately, and is not learning the how and when, I will change how I teach - but there comes a point where I will not continue to teach a student if the student is not understanding the ethical/moral precepts anymore than I would expect a medical school to continue to teach a student who enjoys inflicting pain for its own sake.

[dancingalone]

My teacher will not promote anyone under 18 to black belt. I follow the same rule since I think it's a good one. We teach a comprehensive curriculum that includes weapons work, lots of throws and takedowns, and a high level of physical contact. We do not modify it for children.

[SenseiBear]

I would not promote anyone under 18 to black belt. Of course, I have no interest in teaching children. The first time a black belt in our style opened a kids class, a Junior curriculum was put together for their class in which a junior black belt translated to just below brown belt in the adult curriculum...

I also believe that it is my responsibility as an instructor to try and teach not only techniques, but the code of ethics expounded by our arts philosophy. Many instructors don't feel it is their business, and I don't pretend to be a perfect person (I have had students whose personal life was so much more together than mine that at times teaching philosophy to them felt hypocritical), but the art I teach is a philosophy based art whose mission statement is "To become a better person through dedication to the martial arts" - My instructor always taught that the goal was to incorporate the lessons of our martial art into your everyday life.

If I had a student that I felt could not behave responsibly with the skills I was passing on, or if evidence of such was brought to my attention, I would put a hold on their promotions, suspend them, or expel them from the class altogether, depending on the situation, and notify other instructors in the organization of the situation.

Personally, I have rarely accepted students under 18, and then keep them more on the basics. I could envision a very responsible 16 year old learning much of the material, but have a hard time picturing ever promoting someone under 20 or 21 to black belt - and probably older, just due to the time it takes to learn the material...

[jks9199]

Maturity and rank aren't the same thing.

I don't believe in junior black belts. And I think that expecting someone to be 18 to achieve a black belt is very reasonable; I've got a student that could, by skill, make black belt, and could have a couple of years ago. Our association says you must be 18; waiting has done him well. His skill is better, his understanding is deeper, and he's more prepared.

A lot depends on how you define a black belt; in some styles, it means mastery of the fundamentals. In other styles, it means you're ready to teach. Some combine these meanings. And in some, it's given as something to grow into, when a student has sufficient grasp of the fundamentals to begin serious study.

[Grenadier]

This all depends on what someone considers black belt material to be. For example,

1) In some organizations, attaining black belt means that you're also an instructor.

2) In others, you need to win a certain number of competitions to attain black belt.

3) For others, you get your black belt when you've demonstrated that you have a decent proficiency with the fundamentals, and that you're ready to take on more advanced training.

In the first situation, I would say that you have to have a certain amount of physical maturity and mental maturity. If being a black belt automatically conveys instructor status, then it's generally better than someone be at least 16 years old.

In the second situation, if it's a matter of who the strongest competitor is, then that's their choice.

In the third situation, where all the black belt means is being proficient at the fundamentals, then I see no reason why someone should be held back just because of his age. If a 10 year old can demonstrate strong fundamentals that are as precise as any, then why not grant him the rank if that's what your system entails? If there's nothing more for him to learn at that point, then why waste time in holding him back?

There really is no one right answer. However, there are plenty of wrong answers, such as having 7 year old black belt instructors on the floor. They simply do not have the mental maturity to handle such interactions.

[Andrew Green]

I solved this by not giving belts of any color to anyone over 13 :)

But I really don't think it matters, unless there is some other meaning attached to the belt, then it is just a belt. A 12 year old shouldn't be running classes, so if black belt means instructor, then a 12 year old shouldn't get a black belt. Of course there are also lots of adults, that no matter how technically skilled they are should never teach, so should they not get belts?

Another thing to consider would be if a child can't get one because of size and ability to fight, does that take out smaller adults? Older adults?

Belts get used as a all-in-one ranking system, which is a dissaster waiting to happen. Knowledge, skill, physical ability, teaching ability, etc. All things that go under one heading, but not everyone will ever get all of them, no matter how old they are. Yet in most systems any adult that sticks around long enough will eventually get one.

So as far as I am concerned they are a motivation and retention tool to use in the kids class. Beyond that they don't mean much at all, once they move to the adult class they leave the belt behind anyways.

[still learning]

Hello, First there are NO rules or regulation accept for you own school policys.

Today black belts...has loss it major meanings because anyone can get a black belt.....and at most ages even under 8 years old have being giving black belts in some systems.

maturity and age?.....to earn a black belt? ....some people NEVER grow up..and others are very mature under 16 years old.

It is up to you to set your own school standards. ONLY you can decide what is the best for your own students!

Make it too easy? ...you will lose in the long run...., once an awhile you will run into an exceptional student that is under 18 years old that deserves a black belt.

Today most of us train for only 2-3 days a week and up to two hours per day. Remember in the old days...you train everyday and for very long hours, doing the same thing everyday. So promtion should take longer (many years)

Judo has a good way that works for them.....you will need to win at least three tournament matches in you own rank, or beat your own ranking students many times before promoted to the next rank. (just some schools).

Many schools today? ...all you need is to meet the minumin requirements.

Be firm and strict....in the long run your students will proud of their Black Belts. (look back on your own promotions and how you felt?)

Black belts today is like a high school degree...just get by and you will earn a degree.

Lets change that format...where a Black belt is a Black belt. Graces Jujitsu takes 10 years, NO short cuts either. ED parker use to take 8 years or more, a friend train with them for 8 years and went to college and was only a brown belt. ( while in college...he was able to take three biker guy's who came on campus to cause trouble and succeeded. )

What is the purpose of earning a Black belt? This is my opinion here ONLY!

The purpose of being or earning a black belt means you can protect/ defend yourself and others and be able to use the martial arts in a very effective way. (meaning you can fight!) ..and fight back! not neccessary winning all the time either...

and you should be able to win most of your sparring matches against your own brown belts too! and do well against your own senior black belts too!

Aloha ( Wal-mart sells Black, brown, and white belts too) ...going green the next time..)

[still learning]

Hello, Just a note. At the time you earn your rank....is when you succeed in meeting your Sensi requirements.

Many Black belts grow older, slower, and many train less....and may not train how they were in their younger years.

The Black belt was earn at the time and should be allow to continune there life.

For those who stop training or train less....knows knowledge and some skills will be lost.

Aloha

[Brian S]

I think 16 is a good age if they have been a good student.

[Cirdan]

We don`t preach for the students, but a black belt should be able to focus, have a high degree of control and posess both fighting spirit and ability. 16 is a good minimum age for 1. Dan.

If junior black belts are used I think the requirements should be different and the belt be physically different (white with black stripe)

12 or 13 is a good age to start learning the adult curriculum.

[Drac]

Should anyone under the age of 18 be required to be a junior black belt and learn a modified cirriculum in the system they are in? Rob

Nope.


Maturity and rank aren't the same thing.

I agree.

[KempoGuy06]

I have no teaching experience and Ive only been in the MA's for about a year an half now but my opinion is that no one under the age of 18 should be allowed to wear a black belt. You could argue the maturity route on this all day long and I agree with. Some one under 18 doesnt have real world experience that people 18 and older have. I can hear some people say "well whats the difference between 17 and 18 its only 1 year." 17 and 18 are huge differences. 1st theres that whole being viewed as an adult in the eyes of the law thing...yea thats a big one. Also 170 and 18 are the ages most people are in there junior and/or senior year in high school, and a lot can happen in thoses years. Preparing for graduation and seeking out college to attend can really amp up the maturity level in someone.

A diffenent view is the physical aspect. Giving a 16 or you a black belt gives them a false sense of security in my opinion. it could also give them a superman complex. and mixed with a low level of maturity can spell trouble

B

[Adept]

I have always viewed belts as totally arbitrary. They needlessly complicate the whole training process and create a tiered environment.

Since a black belt only means what you (the club) want it to mean, then it is up to each individual organisation to define their black belts, and decide if a child can be included in that definition.

It's not a case of 'all black belts should be this' or 'all black belts should be that'. Its simply a matter of what you expect from a black belt, and if you can reasonably expect a child to perform to that level.

[MJS]

Hello all. I know there have been threads before on this subject but I want to get your opinions on wether or not there is an appropriate age that a student should be promoted to black belt? Should anyone under the age of 18 be required to be a junior black belt and learn a modified cirriculum in the system they are in? The reason I ask is because we are seeing more and more young black belts who may not be mature enough to carry the responsibility associated with the rank they now wear. Let me back this up by an example. A teenager that I know was recently promoted to black belt. We were at a gathering over the holidays and what I witnessed disgusted me. At this gathering someone was sitting in a chair that he wanted to sit in. After a verbal exchange the person in the chair refused to move which he should have done. In anger the he grabbed the person in the chair by the neck and removed him. I was shocked at what I saw. It made me wonder if giving this individual a black belt has "just given the gun to the baby" for lack of a better phrase. There are other instances of where this same person has displayed actions that an older black belt may not display. Any thoughts? What should be done to someone like this ? Are there other instances like this or am I being a little to picky in my expectations of a black belt?

In the spirit of bushido!

Rob

I'll address this post in 2 parts. As far as the rank issue goes...IMO, I just can't justify a 9yo walking around with a BB. Why do we see that? Because people start kids at 4yrs old, so after 5yrs, the parents are expecting their child to be a BB. Sorry, but I seriously doubt that the 9yo is executing things perfectly. Even if they were, lets do the math. If we follow the typical rank progression, technically, by the time that child is in their teens, they can have a high BB rank. When I say typical, I'm referring to 2 yrs between 1st and 2nd, 2-3 for 3rd, etc. Honestly, what would anyone think if they walked into a school and saw a 18yo 6th degree BB? I know I'd turn around and walk back out the door.

I think that a Jr. BB is a good thing. Unfortunately in todays world, its not about the time and hard work, but instead keeping up with Johnnys friend who started at the same time. Heaven forbid his friend passes him up. Its not about how well someone can defend themselves, but what color belt and how many stripes. Therefore, a Jr BB is good because it still allows the child to continue learning the material for a full BB, while at the same time, not giving them the actual rank.

Now, as far as the kid who threw the other out of the chair. Now, there have been many times at a function, where I've gotten up, only to have my chair taken by another guest. I usually end up just standing and don't say anything. So my chair was taken...big deal. Personally that kid sounds like a punk and should watch himself, because one day, he may try that on the wrong person and be in for a surprise. IMO, he has some anger management issues.

[YoungMan]

I personally would not teach anyone under the age of 10 years old. I know some people would never teach their art to anyone under 18 or 20, but I just think traditional martial arts have too many benefits to relegate them to those over a certain age. I don't know where I'd be if it weren't for Tae kwon Do in my teen years, and my Instructor certainly never went easy on me.
However, I don't think a 14 year old black belt is the same as a 21 year old black belt. I know for a fact our Instructor didn't teach us things he taught the older Dans. I accepted that as just part of the privilege of age.
As for the black belt student, the fault lies with the Instructor who apparently never taught him proper respect and manners. Only part of training is physical. It is the Instructor's job to also instill in these students the obligations that go along with black belt, and they are many.

[terryl965]

Well I look at it like this we allow junior BB because the Kukkiwon allows them. My sons are Junior BB and handle themself very well do they know everything NO, but look at it like this do we, No. Being a marttial artist is a lifetime journey and the belt you wear does not mean anything if you do not respect it and those that have giving it to you. Well I'm not for it or against it but I rather just say each there own.

[YoungMan]

I don't have a problem with Junior Black Belts as long they are recognized as such and it is established they will not be doing the same things as the adult black belts.
I also don't think junior dans (poom dans) should teach adults. Would you want to pay a monthly fee and be taught by a 13 year old?

[Andrew Green]

Umm... What exactly is this "adult only" training some of you are doing? :eek:

[dancingalone]

Umm... What exactly is this "adult only" training some of you are doing?

Well, we practice many wrist and arms locks. Although we are careful to be sensitive to our partner's level of pain, we recognize that a child on average cannot have the same level of awareness and so he can be dangerous to others AND himself if he doesn't know when to tap or when to back up a bit. Also children's joints are obviously still developing. We would rather not risk hurting them in a way that could affect the growth of their limbs for years to come.

Also consider some of the deadlier moves common in traditional karate, like strikes to the temples or the throat. Do you really want to train that material with a child who may not have the judgement to use the knowledge in an appropriate context? There is a difference between life and death self-defense and just warding off the schoolyard bully...

[Kacey]

As for the black belt student, the fault lies with the Instructor who apparently never taught him proper respect and manners. Only part of training is physical. It is the Instructor's job to also instill in these students the obligations that go along with black belt, and they are many.

The obligations of the belt... sure. Respect and manners should be taught by the parents before anyone else.

[Andrew Green]

My attempt at a joke it seems, was missed :(

That's ok, I understand what you are saying, I do a similar thing. The kids learn submissions, but the match ends when the position is locked, not when they tap out. So if it's a armbar, once the arm is straight its over, no pressure until they tap.

However they do still get to finish there submissions, on the adults. They just don't have submissions finished on them.



Well, we practice many wrist and arms locks. Although we are careful to be sensitive to our partner's level of pain, we recognize that a child on average cannot have the same level of awareness and so he can be dangerous to others AND himself if he doesn't know when to tap or when to back up a bit. Also children's joints are obviously still developing. We would rather not risk hurting them in a way that could affect the growth of their limbs for years to come.

Also consider some of the deadlier moves common in traditional karate, like strikes to the temples or the throat. Do you really want to train that material with a child who may not have the judgement to use the knowledge in an appropriate context? There is a difference between life and death self-defense and just warding off the schoolyard bully...

[terryl965]

I don't have a problem with Junior Black Belts as long they are recognized as such and it is established they will not be doing the same things as the adult black belts.
I also don't think junior dans (poom dans) should teach adults. Would you want to pay a monthly fee and be taught by a 13 year old?

Junior BB should only be helping with class and for the record my oldest is 13 going on 14 in march and yes he can teach, for those lucky enough to have seen him, he is a natureal just like a scolar at school. Why is it a student can go to college get a degree and be working software or science at the age of 13-14 but in MA it cannot be done.

[gblnking]

Junior BB should only be helping with class and for the record my oldest is 13 going on 14 in march and yes he can teach, for those lucky enough to have seen him, he is a natureal just like a scolar at school. Why is it a student can go to college get a degree and be working software or science at the age of 13-14 but in MA it cannot be done.

Simple. That 14 year old who gets the college degree (few) and works in the software and science fields isn't teaching others. They're not responsible for shaping young minds or educating adults.
A 13-14 year old martial artist can be good or even exceptional for their age group but I doubt he has a lot of real world experience to back it up with.
I for one wouldn't feel confident in a teenage "black belt" teacher. I have a teenager as well, and she is exceptional in many ways but she is still pron to the usual mix of teenage issues.

[sensei lengyel 4th don]

I agree you must be at least 16 to be a young blackbelt. i seen kids that are blackbelts and cant even tie there obi the wright way. or have the maturey level to respect themselves or there system,or must of all RESPECT for there instructor!!!!!

[sensei lengyel 4th don]

[quote=sensei lengyel 4th don;908487]I agree you must be at least 16 to be a young blackbelt. i seen kids that are blackbelts and cant even tie there obi the wright way. or have the maturity level to respect themselves or there system,or must of all RESPECT for there instructor1

[sensei lengyel 4th don]

I agree blackbelts should be at least 16 to obtain there blackbelts. I have seen young blackbelts that tie there odi the wrong way.. but I also seen young blackbelts that has the leadership skills to be a blackbelt. at the age of 10. that because some styles have different ways to receive a blackbelt.

[Brad Dunne]

Here is something for additional consideration. The age that someone can be tried as an adult in court is 16. The age that some states permit driving is 16. For those who watch the history channel, we have seen the age a boy becomes a man in many cultures is 16. So where does that leave us? Your school, your discipline and your organization has the right to dictate what is appropriate for you/them. The students/parents inturn, agree to this positioning, or should have, prior to starting instructions. I have seen the good and the bad from young BB's and the good will always be overshadowed by the bad.

As for an instructor being tasked to instill good values, well that's not really his/her job. All they can do is provide the proper atmosphere and appropriate training and show a correct attitude. If the parents haven't instilled these correct traits in their children, how in the world can an instructor do it on a modified part time basis. Granted, there's always the exception, but that's just it, it's an exception, not the norm.

[Bodhisattva]

This is the problem that occurs when belts are given out on some basis other than PERFORMANCE. And by that, I mean performance against a resisting opponnent.

The beauty of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is that you guys would never ben having this issue - if the 16 year old could "hang" with the black belts, he'd eventually be a black belt. That means - he wrestles with the black belts, shows the same ability to apply his techniques on a resisting opponent as a black belt, then he would get his black belt.

In martial arts, performance should be the only measure for belts and ranks.

[terryl965]

Simple. That 14 year old who gets the college degree (few) and works in the software and science fields isn't teaching others. They're not responsible for shaping young minds or educating adults.
A 13-14 year old martial artist can be good or even exceptional for their age group but I doubt he has a lot of real world experience to back it up with.
I for one wouldn't feel confident in a teenage "black belt" teacher. I have a teenager as well, and she is exceptional in many ways but she is still pron to the usual mix of teenage issues.


Iam talking teaching techniques, so lets make that clear. Oh by the way I've seen so many adults teaching SD principle without any real world experiences. So where does that leave us, the exact same place it did before no where. MA has been around for every almost every single MA person I know believe Bruce Lee was the absolute well here is a tidbit he never had a BB in any Art so how can he be a great teacher, it was they way he tought and his own concept. He made people think outside the box for themself.

How many poster in this thread or threads like them have any real world SD experience few I bet, so that means they cannot teach without it how can they teach. Sorry that was absolutely scarcaism, and my apologies to everyone just trying to make a point.

[MJS]

Well I look at it like this we allow junior BB because the Kukkiwon allows them. My sons are Junior BB and handle themself very well do they know everything NO, but look at it like this do we, No. Being a marttial artist is a lifetime journey and the belt you wear does not mean anything if you do not respect it and those that have giving it to you. Well I'm not for it or against it but I rather just say each there own.

I agree with part of this. You're right, we don't know everything...at least I don't. I still learn with every lesson I take. :) Interestingly enough, I was taking an Arnis lesson last night. My inst. commented that many times, when people test, they just do the bare minimum to pass the test. Sure, this is fine if you're a low ranking belt, but, once you reach the upper ranks, you should be doing more than the bare minimum. You should be able to do more than that. You should be performing at a different level. I have to say that I agree with this.

Is a 12 yo 2nd degree BB going to comprehend things on the same level as say a 30 yo 2nd degree?

You brought up a good point when you said the belt we wear doesn't mean anything. As I've said, its the knowledge and skill, to name a few things, that the person has, that means more than any belt. But, when people see someone walking around with a black belt, and possibly one that has stripes on it, the average person is going to assume that the person must know something.

The problem, or at least one of the problems stems from the fact that many times, its not a case of knowing the material well, but the fact that the person has met the standard time frame for rank advancement, thus, regardless of whether or not they know or can perform anything, they still get promoted. 9 times out of 10, when a person enrolls, either themselves or their child in a martial arts program, one of the first things they inquire about is rank and how long it takes to advance.

Mike

[MJS]

I don't have a problem with Junior Black Belts as long they are recognized as such and it is established they will not be doing the same things as the adult black belts.
I also don't think junior dans (poom dans) should teach adults. Would you want to pay a monthly fee and be taught by a 13 year old?

Agreed. Now, its one thing if the person is 17, 18, 21, etc., but younger than that...they should be working with people their own age IMO.

Mike

[MJS]

Iam talking teaching techniques, so lets make that clear. Oh by the way I've seen so many adults teaching SD principle without any real world experiences. So where does that leave us, the exact same place it did before no where. MA has been around for every almost every single MA person I know believe Bruce Lee was the absolute well here is a tidbit he never had a BB in any Art so how can he be a great teacher, it was they way he tought and his own concept. He made people think outside the box for themself.

How many poster in this thread or threads like them have any real world SD experience few I bet, so that means they cannot teach without it how can they teach. Sorry that was absolutely scarcaism, and my apologies to everyone just trying to make a point.

I quoted gblnkings post for reference. The person who gets the college education at that age, which is rare, is not responsible at that time, for teaching others. As far as the real world experience goes....if that was a pre-requisite for teaching, how many schools would be in operation today? Has everyone faced a gun, a knife, more than 1 opponent, or been attacked by the vast array of methods, such as choke, bearhug, wrist grab, etc.? So, what do we do? We use the methods, concepts, teachings, etc., of others who have faced those situations, as a stepping stone. Additionally, IMO, it all comes down to how its being taught. Are we having a compliant opponent with a rubber knife attack us, or are we putting some realism into it, ie: no lie blade or something similar so we can see the 'cuts', an aggressive opponent, ie: someone really trying to cut us? Is a 12,13, or 14 yo old capable of doing that? If so, then it shows that they're an exception to the rule. If not, then they should be teaching people in their own age group IMO.


Simple. That 14 year old who gets the college degree (few) and works in the software and science fields isn't teaching others. They're not responsible for shaping young minds or educating adults.
A 13-14 year old martial artist can be good or even exceptional for their age group but I doubt he has a lot of real world experience to back it up with.
I for one wouldn't feel confident in a teenage "black belt" teacher. I have a teenager as well, and she is exceptional in many ways but she is still pron to the usual mix of teenage issues.

[jks9199]

Originally Posted by jks9199
Maturity and rank aren't the same thing.


I agree.

Actually... thinking on it, I'll add that maturity and experience aren't the same thing, either.

I'm sure you've seen guys nearing retirement with one year of experience, 20 times -- sometimes with lots of brass on their collars at work. And I'm sure we've all seen the high ranked black belt who hasn't got the basics you'd expect in a mid to low ranked under belt.

[jks9199]

This is the problem that occurs when belts are given out on some basis other than PERFORMANCE. And by that, I mean performance against a resisting opponnent.

The beauty of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is that you guys would never ben having this issue - if the 16 year old could "hang" with the black belts, he'd eventually be a black belt. That means - he wrestles with the black belts, shows the same ability to apply his techniques on a resisting opponent as a black belt, then he would get his black belt.

In martial arts, performance should be the only measure for belts and ranks.
The problem is that there really is no one definition for a "black belt." We say it's "mastery", but of what? In some styles, it's a high level of mastery of the style. In others, it's mastery of the basic material so that they can learn the more advanced material. In some, it's all about who you can outfight (do they demote you as you age and can no longer hold your own?), but others have no fighting aspect. Sometimes, the answer depends on who you're asking about...

It's kind of like trying to decide who the best chef is, but having one prepare pizza, another classical French cousine, and another reheat a TV dinner. You can't compare them that way... and you can't really compare black belts across styles, either. Is it fair for a system where you can typically anticipate at least 2 years as a white belt to have that student compete against someone who spends a few months as a white belt? Can you really compare the two evenly?

[Hand Sword]

After considering the behavior I see on the job from teens on up, I'd say a good age bracket would be 25-30 years old. Most of our cultural views come from an age past, where 16-18 year olds were more mature, got and stayed married, etc... Today, with all of the coddling, pampering, etc... people don't seem to have a clue until age 25. At least that's what I see and deal with.

After all, the study of the arts is a lifelong journey right? There should be no hurry with belt ranking. Let the person and techniques mature fully.

At least that's what I would want to see done. I know it's not a realistic view.

[YoungMan]

Regarding an earlier post:
I agree parents should be teaching manners and etiquette before anyone. However, what I am referring to is the obligation of Instructors to teach their black belt students martial arts manners and etiquette. Specifically, how a black belt should act as a black belt in regards to his relations with other people and students. Some of this common sense, some of this is specific to certain styles and arts.
And keep in mind, many parents do not do this, as a short walk around Wal-Mart will prove.

[gblnking]

Iam talking teaching techniques, so lets make that clear. Oh by the way I've seen so many adults teaching SD principle without any real world experiences. So where does that leave us, the exact same place it did before no where. MA has been around for every almost every single MA person I know believe Bruce Lee was the absolute well here is a tidbit he never had a BB in any Art so how can he be a great teacher, it was they way he tought and his own concept. He made people think outside the box for themself.

How many poster in this thread or threads like them have any real world SD experience few I bet, so that means they cannot teach without it how can they teach. Sorry that was absolutely scarcaism, and my apologies to everyone just trying to make a point.

Sorry, sometimes I tend to not be very clear on my point of view so I’ll try to rectify that here.
1) Real world experience doesn’t exclusively equal self - defense. Real world not only encompasses fighting it also means avoiding fights, defusing aggressive encounters both in the school and outside of it. Real world means having enough experience in working within groups and being comfortable in a leadership role. Etc, etc, etc. Just because one may know precise techniques doesn’t necessarily mean that they can convey them in an understandable way. I had a teacher years ago that was athletically gifted. His fighting style was solid, his technique was dead on. But he couldn’t teach worth a crap. On the other hand my current teacher’s understanding of the fighting style is dead on as well, but his teaching ability is solid. He knows how to not only teach the curriculum as well as how to get you to understand it. He knows how to facilitate the class if it starts to loose focus and he knows how to add the right amount of levity when necessary. These are traits not learned in a class but developed through years of experience dealing with real world relationships, jobs, and organizations. Not something that a teenager posses yet.
2) I guess MJS said it best:

“Agreed. Now, its one thing if the person is 17, 18, 21, etc., but younger than that...they should be working with people their own age IMO.”

I can’t argue with that

[chinto01]

Thanks everyone for your replies. They are about what I thought they would be. This brings up another question. My sensei tells stories about how on Okinawa he did not begin his training until he was 13 years old. Even then he had to be introduced and accepted by his sensei. Part of this introduction was a form of testing that he had to go through where he was only permitted to watch classes in the beginning. He also worked on his teachers farm as a form of payment. This is not the first case I have heard of where a form of testing occurred. It is also not the first I have heard about the age at which some of the forefathers had started, between the ages of 11-13 seems to be the norm. Do you think that there was a reason for this? Also are there any thoughts as to who started teaching students as young as 4?

In the spirit of bushido!

Rob

[MJS]

Thanks everyone for your replies. They are about what I thought they would be. This brings up another question. My sensei tells stories about how on Okinawa he did not begin his training until he was 13 years old. Even then he had to be introduced and accepted by his sensei. Part of this introduction was a form of testing that he had to go through where he was only permitted to watch classes in the beginning. He also worked on his teachers farm as a form of payment. This is not the first case I have heard of where a form of testing occurred. It is also not the first I have heard about the age at which some of the forefathers had started, between the ages of 11-13 seems to be the norm. Do you think that there was a reason for this?

I wasn't around back in those days, but I can only assume that the training was very different back then. It was hard core, class was serious, lots of contact, no fear of lawsuits, and you worked for and earned your belt with blood, sweat and tears. I'm guessing that you had to show some sort of dedication prior to be accepted. Of course, nothing like this happens today, because if it did, there would hardly be any schools open.


Also are there any thoughts as to who started teaching students as young as 4?

In the spirit of bushido!

Rob

No idea.

[terryl965]

Also are there any thoughts as to who started teaching students as young as 4?


Well warm up the grill cause I'm about to be roasted here, All of my boys started to workout when they could walk, was they learning MA, no but they where learning valueable motor skills.

My father stated my brother and sister out as soon as we could walk as well.

I guess I'm a little different than most folks, I believe you can start them young and by the time the reach teenager they have a general ideal of what is expected of them in life as well on the matt.

[Andrew Green]

learning to play fight is a very natural instinct in young children, 4 is definately old enough to start learning to do so properly. However I don't think a traditional basics and kata class would work well for a 4 year old, but wrestling one-on-one with a parent? or in a very small group? They will have a great time and learn some very valuable motor skills.

[AceHBK]

Also are there any thoughts as to who started teaching students as young as 4?


Well warm up the grill cause I'm about to be roasted here, All of my boys started to workout when they could walk, was they learning MA, no but they where learning valueable motor skills.

My father stated my brother and sister out as soon as we could walk as well.

I guess I'm a little different than most folks, I believe you can start them young and by the time the reach teenager they have a general ideal of what is expected of them in life as well on the matt.

I can agree with Terry.

I think we all focus on age as a way to descriminate. Rest assured there are old BB's who can't teach nor show the "black belt spirit".

If you are an effective teacher and you have a young student who is eager to learn and able to digest what you teach them and apply it and be able to teach others as well why should they not get your respect as a BB? Shouldnt they be seen as a BB and not a 14 yr old BB? I don't hear people saying "oh he is a 40 year old BB"

I personally know Terry's kids and I would have no problem what so ever taking instructions from them. I am a big admirer of his oldest son who is extremely talented.

I think this issue speaks more of society. At 30 I find people having a problem with me being a manager especially if I have people under me who are 40 and 50. I am seen as "some punk kid" who shouldnt be telling them anything b/c I am young and couldnt possibly know anything.

If this should be judged then it should be judged on a individual basis.

[Kwan Jang]

I agree with Terry on this one. I began at six and have trained consistantly, other than down time for injuries/surgeries ever since (I'm 43). I have seen many kids who started VERY young and have grown to be great martial artists and exceptional people as teens and adults. It was a great base for them to grow from, it just requires an instructor who really knows how to teach someone that age that understands their needs developmentally and doesn't just treat them as little adults. BTW, there are some kids that can benefit from being trained this way, I came up this way (and had age restrictions toward bb), but I would have progressed more at that age if the training was age appropriate.

I do believe that the junior black belt is a good idea. This way young students are not held back from achieving what they are capable of. Though they may have a leadership role with their peers or younger students, they are NOT instructors and I don't believe in anyone being an instructor until (at least) 18 and I usually will not allow anyone under 21 teach an adults class (though they can assist). I think the greater issue is not if a child or teen has a rank, but whether or not they have the basics and fundamentals down sharp; IMO the real issue is if instructors and orgs. put a high enough standard and requirement on achieving the rank for adults, teens, or kids. I feel any rank is only useful if it is something that you have to push yourself past your limits to grow into.

As far as the argument of it not being traditional, my question is whose tradition? In WTF and KKW TKD, the rank of junior black belt has existed for decades. In Judo, (y'know the system that began started the kyu/dan rankings and that all other martial arts that use a belt system modelled) thet awarded 5th dan (and no junior rankings either) to Kimura at the age of 18 before virtually any of us on this board was born.

[MJS]

So, we start the child at 4. Andrew said that a traditional class wouldn't work too well. So, if thats the case, I'm assuming that some basic fundamentals such as coordination, balance, etc would be taught.

Now, in Terrys case, as well as a few others who started early, and/or who have their own kids that started at that age, what was taught? Was it basic fundamentals, actual rank material, etc? What are your views on someone who is 8 or 9 and has a first degree BB? What about someone who is 10 or 12 and is a 2nd?

Mike

[terryl965]

Mike I can only speak for me when I first started my boys we work on motor skills putting one foot in front of the other and stances and also basic kicking drills front kick snap kick, as they developed it went to standing sidekick whipping roundhouse and ax kicks. As well as basic target drills with the hands, around five we started basic Poomsae and believe me it was not trying to teach every movement and the mearning but just the movement memorization.

I can speak my youngest is 9 he is a first poom a junior BB so is my 10 year old. Zachary who is 13 going to be 14 in March and the one Ace and exile talk about is a second degree poom. Now he is where I differ from most Zachary is now old enough to transfer his poom to a Dan rank but good old Dad which is me say no, when the time is right I will re-test him for his first and second and then transfer his ranking though the KKW. This is completely out of the norm for all that I know they just transfer without any more test.

I figure he knows enough to be a poom, but in no way does he at this age understand enough to be a Dan BB, atleast not for me. He has talent and he understands alot but the matureity just is not there right now, some time he just acts like a 14 year old stupid.

I also know I talk alot about kids being a BB, but I always say the are only a poom which makes them a Junior in other orgs. Mike I hoope this helps you and some others understand where I came from.

My father motto was this at the age of 16 he was already in the military by the time he was 17 he was seeing action and by the time he was 24 he was teaching hand to hand and was a Master Drill Instructor, so our family believe if you push them they can learn but I'm not as much as my father was. Thank God and may he rest in peace.

[kingkong89]

i agree on some of your thread. there are too many young black belts out there that are not mature enough nor know the meaning of being a black belt. this demonstration the said belt did show that maybe he does not know the true meaning of the belt. as for an appropiate age, i would say at least 16 and that depends on their maturaty and again understanding the meaning of the belt.