Judo to Jujutsu Migration??

[Koga-Shinobi]

Hi all,

Over the years I have seen, and repeatedly have read of on forums like these, that many judoka are moving away from studying Judo to study jujutsu (not BJJ!) saying that they find that "jujutsu has what judo lacks" and that "jujutsu is more applicable in SD". I wonder if anyone has noticed this or if anyone has any views on this. Why do you think Judo practitioners are becoming so disenchanted with the art? What difference is there realy in the techniques, other than perhaps an expanded spectrum of joint locks?

Your views would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks in advance.

[ace]

Ju Jitsu is the mother art
& Judo seems to be verry bound by there Rules.

Also it seems to be easyer to get ranked in Ju Jitsu
{Not BJJ as i've heard it's almost imposiable to get ranked}

I my self have been taking an intrist in Judo
Beacuse of the similaratys to international Ju Jitsu Competion.

Mane differnce is Judo allows no Strikes &
LegLocks. In Judo U can Win By Pin or Throw
in Ju jitsu it is just points

[yilisifu]

My guess would be that the judo people may be leaving the ranks due to political problems. Judo is, after all, a sport rather than a self-defense method. I know they've had more than their share of political difficulties over the years.
Jujitsu, on the other hand,is an art based on self-defense rather than sport.

Just my two yen......

[ace]

Has also Been practise as a sport By JJIF,USJJF,NYJJI
For Some Time Now.

[Aegis]

I started in Judo, trained in it for some years, and once I started training in Jujitsu, realised what I was missing out on. I'm currently training in a (non-sporting) style of Jujutsu, and don't want to switch back.

[Abbax8]

Judo, is taught and practiced by many as a sport. However, that does not change the fact that judo was and remains a martial way, with excellant self defense aspects. This is the judo I teach.

Peace
Dennis

[redfive]

My first Black Belt was in a Combat Jiu Jitsu or Ju Jitsu. My Teacher often referred to it as Goshin Ryu Jiu Jitsu. It was a more traditional Jitsu in the fact that it had all the strikes and kicks that you find in any other system plus the joint cranks and throws that you would expect to find. True Ju Jitsu was a system that had it all, but over time people disected it and took what they wonted and concentrated on the aspects that they liked. Then you get sytems like Atemi Jistsu, Aki Jitsu and many more. Even Akido came from a JuJistu base. Its all good. Some people stand up and do it, others ground fight with it, but it used to all be one sytem.
For competition purposes judo was formed. leave out the kicks, strikes, fingure locks, and joint cranks and you have Judo. It is and always will be a sport form of Jujitsu. And thats not a bad thing, but anyone who is teaching Judo as self deffense is wrong. It a part of the whole. It would be the same as teaching olimpic wrestling as a combat art or ring boxing as a self deffense without ever taking the gloves off.
I'v had the privilege of training with Wally Jay many times.
He is incredible at both Jujitsu and Judo. And he sad many times that there is a diffrence in the training and the techniques.
Wally has told the story about his Judo team realy doing great when they wore there Judo uniformes, but one day he had them take them off and go shirtless. They tried the same techniques but had difficulty in performing many of the throws and chokes. He then translated the JuJitsu techniques for them.

Jujitsu was first and Judo was second. One sport one not.

Your friend in the Combat Arts, Redfive.

[Hollywood1340]

Originally posted by Abbax8
[B]Judo, is taught and practiced by many as a sport. However, that does not change the fact that judo was and remains a martial way, with excellant self defense aspects. This is the judo I teach.


Exellent point! Judo is so wide ranging as an art that many forget that. Yes we can kick, stirke, joint lock, and do all that, and have done so for a long time. Look beyond "Sport Judo" and see what Kano's true genius was. Learn the ART and SCIENCE of judo, and you'll find it opens oppurtunitys many think are not judokaly (sp?) possible.

[Aegis]

Originally posted by redfive
For competition purposes judo was formed. leave out the kicks, strikes, fingure locks, and joint cranks and you have Judo. It is and always will be a sport form of Jujitsu. And thats not a bad thing, but anyone who is teaching Judo as self deffense is wrong. It a part of the whole. It would be the same as teaching olimpic wrestling as a combat art or ring boxing as a self deffense without ever taking the gloves off.

I think your history of Judo should be updated. Judo was created as a self-defence art almost entirely like Jujitsu, with the strikes and all the other competition illegal techniques left in. Kano wished the art to be complete. However, he made it possible to use Judo in a friendly sparring environment, allowing the practicioners to test their techniques at full power against resisting opponents.

This is what is now seen of Judo. The self-defence side of things has been almost completely forgotten by most instructors I've met.

Anyway, to summarise:


Jujitsu was first and Judo was second. One sport one not.

Jujitsu was indeed first, but both were created as martial arts, not sports. Look around today and you'll find sports jujutsu as well. It doesn't mean that was what the art was created for, it's just what certain instructors have decided would be a good idea.

[Aegis]

Oh, and Dennis:

The type of Judo you teach sounds like how it was originally meant to be.

[Koga-Shinobi]

Aegis---You said you moved to Jujutsu cause you saw what was missing from your judo. What exactly--any specifics??

And just another thought for you all? I know that all martial arts are complete arts and effective and blah blah blah (not looking to start a flame war:rolleyes: ), but what do you think of the combination of Aikido and judo? You essentially have the throws from Judo and the "testing" environment in shiai, and the locks from Aikido. In essence, could this not be considered (VERY loosely) a "home-made" version of jujutsu?

Your views?

[Aegis]

I didn't quite say that. I only saw what was missing from Judo after moving to Jujutsu. I saw that Judo was fine for competition work, but generally flawed when it came to self defence application. Jujutsu completes the technique set, adding in blocks, strikes, different styles of takedown banned from Judo compatition, and several more minor sets of techniques.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that Judo is fine if taught in its original form, with the self defence aspects intact. But it is mostly taught as nothing but a sport these days, which is a real pity: Judo is a complete art which has true applications in self defence, but is taught more or less entirely in its incomplete form.

[Koga-Shinobi]

Hmmm....thanks Aegis! :p

At our dojo at our local university, our judo instructor teaches every Monday and Wednesday. On Mondays he teaches self-defense (ie. situation responses..primarily throw orientated) and theory, and on Wednesdays he teaches competition. In essence the two very much compliment each other and work well together..particularly since I'm not very interested in the sport side of Judo (perhaps I'll grow into it...I'm usually a very competitive bugger! :D )

Thinking of starting Aikido classes on Mondays after Judo and Thursdays. Think the combo of the two could be highly effective.

You feel that there's no need really to go outside of Judo if I'm in it purely for the SD aspect? Surely a throw on the mat is the same on the street?

[Astra]

Yeah, if you actually manage to throw your opponent, it hurts. I remember sparring with nearly no rules in a "work-out" practice at the school I study in. He tried a take-down, and I ended up throwing him on his back. That ended the session, as he wanted out after a landing like that(we had gear on, but it shook the hell out of him) :o

To answer to your post: A throw is a throw on the street(and if done right is very effective), but you have to keep in mind that you're opponent isn't wearing a judo-gi.

[Johnathan Napalm]

Right!! Smash someone's head on the concrete, and a great future lies ahead of you, IN PRISON!

[Aegis]

Originally posted by Koga-Shinobi
You feel that there's no need really to go outside of Judo if I'm in it purely for the SD aspect? Surely a throw on the mat is the same on the street?

if they teach you how to catch an attck and use a throw from the catch, no. However, most Judo classes teach throws from a standard grip, which you are highly unlikely to manage to get on a real opponent.

[redfive]

Per Aegis's suggestion,
I have updated my Judo history. Actualy my knowledge of it was to current, becouse all I have ever seen is sport Judo. Reading about Jigoro Kano and his formation of the Kodokan Judo system, has given me new insight into Judo.
Indeed it was created for a self defense and combat. I also did not realize that it was as young a system as it is, being formed only in the 1800. I thought it was much older.
To bad more people do not know or teach the original form of Judo. And my hats off to those of you who do. And I stand corrected.
If you teach Judo as a self deffense, you are not wrong.

Your friend in the Combative Arts, Redfive

[Koga-Shinobi]

Aegis, I hear your argument...but surely through shiai and competition you learn to apply your throws in any situation..against a resisiting opponent, where it's not all "ritualized"?

[Aegis]

Originally posted by Koga-Shinobi
Aegis, I hear your argument...but surely through shiai and competition you learn to apply your throws in any situation..against a resisiting opponent, where it's not all "ritualized"?

I would seriously disagree. You learn to utilise the throws in a one-on-one conflict, wearing thick jackets (made for easy gripping), where you know your opponent isn't going to hit you. You train on mats, so doing a sacrifice throw is possible, while on the streets it's possible that doing so will leave you unable to get away afterwards. You train to know that some techniques are banned for being dangerous, or counter-productive to an interesting fight, so you don't learn to use them.

Another example is in groundwork. In Judo, if the groundfight is going no-where, you are stood up by the referee and restart. It is sometimes taught, therefore, that one of the best ground defences is to get on your front and curl up into a tight ball. Not particularly good tactics in a real fight.

People will say that the street "rules" are different and you can adapt to them, but I disagree. You will do exactly what you have trained repetetively to do. If that happens to be a bad street tactic, then it's quite likely to hurt.

However, I would like to stress that Judo would be of more use on the streets than nothing. The grappling it teaches CAN be altered easily to street-type defences, but requires thought, which slows you down. in Jujitsu, the self-defence methods are taught from the word go, so what you do on the street will be exactly as taught, and providing the school is teaching legitimate self-defence (ie/ techniques which will actually work) you will react faster and do the right thing.

Don't know how well all that came across, but hopefully you see my point.

[ace]

As has been stated before he changed the
Rules to suit the Throwers. He took out leg locks
And gave short time in Ne Waza.

This was do to the Fact That Kosen Judo Group
Was dominating the Seen.

And Then Name Judo was Used
Many Years Before Kano Used it.

[Koga-Shinobi]

Thanks everyone for all your reply's!! :p

Aegis---so do you feel (taking away all the nuts and bolts) that Judo isn't an effective self-defense style? I agree about your (and other's who have posted) line of reasoning with regards to no gi on the streets, and the danger of certain throws...but surely, somewhere in the judo syllabus (goshin no kata aside) there has to be something that can not only work, but well?? I cant believe that the millions of judoka out there are learning their art purely for competition and not SD purposes.

:D Dont mean to come out strong, I'm just learning the trade, and like to feel that what I'm learning is worth something on the street (BESIDES smashing someones head open on the concrete Johnathan Napalm :shrug: ).

I'd love to do jujutsu to be honest, but there's nothing within a reasonable distance from me unfortunately.

Thanks for your views, and keep them coming!! :D

[Aegis]

Originally posted by Koga-Shinobi
Aegis---so do you feel (taking away all the nuts and bolts) that Judo isn't an effective self-defense style? I agree about your (and other's who have posted) line of reasoning with regards to no gi on the streets, and the danger of certain throws...but surely, somewhere in the judo syllabus (goshin no kata aside) there has to be something that can not only work, but well?? I cant believe that the millions of judoka out there are learning their art purely for competition and not SD purposes.

I think it depends largely on the individual instructors. My first Judo instructor believed in the whole art, so roughly a third of our training sessions each year were devoted to self defence, without wearing the gi. Blocking, throwing and locking suddenly took on a whole new dimension. I could see then that Judo was meant to be used like that, and that the techniques simply need to be practised under different circumstances.

Self defence training has to be practised regularly. If you train once or twice to block a punch and throw from it, you're likely to fail if you even need to use it. If instead you train in the self defence aspect every week, and block various attacks in every training session, you will become proficient. After that, the defences will start to come naturally, without even having to think about them.

I don't know quite how well I've made my point here, so I'll summarise more or less exactly what I mean:

Judo can be taught as either a sport of a self defence martial art. Or a combination of the two.

If taught as a sport, the self defence applications will tend to suffer.

If taught as a mixture of sport and self defence, the practicioner will have the opportunity to try out the throws on resisting opponents but with certain rules on the techniques allowed. This is probably th best bet for learning Judo as self defence.

Learning non-sport Jujitsu will force you to use the self defence skill from the beginning, until they become second nature.


Since my summary seems to have taken up a lot of space, here's a conclusion:

If you want to learn how to defend yourself, learn under self defence circumstances. The transition from sport to street is not as easy as claimed by some.

[jujutsu_indonesia]

Hi all,

Over the years I have seen, and repeatedly have read of on forums like these, that many judoka are moving away from studying Judo to study jujutsu (not BJJ!) saying that they find that "jujutsu has what judo lacks" and that "jujutsu is more applicable in SD". I wonder if anyone has noticed this or if anyone has any views on this.

they never really gone away far. most of them simply wish to cross-train. :)



Why do you think Judo practitioners are becoming so disenchanted with the art?

not really disenchanted, just want to try something new, something that used to be taught in all Judo dojos..



What difference is there realy in the techniques, other than perhaps an expanded spectrum of joint locks?


99% of all Judo dojos in the world today focuses on sport judo/competition judo. Which is totally missed the point. Sport judo is for athletes, strong person with stamina and strength. real Judo as created by prof Kano is JUJUTSU with SPORT ASPECTS. So prof. Kano's judo are still Jujutsu, but modernized. It has all the self defense tricks of Jujutsu, but expanded to include sports competitions.

unfortunately, after the 1964 olympics, most Judo dojos emphasizes competitions too much. Those which does not emphasize competitions & prefer to do self-defense finally decided to call themselves "Jujutsu" or "Jujitsu" or "Ju-Jitsu" or "Jiu-Jitsu" dojos. Because there were really no differences between Judo and Jujutsu before World War II.

Now I am sure people understands why students of Prof. Okazaki (he received Sandan from Prof. Kano directly) and of Prof. Wally Jay (famous Judo coach) called themselves "jujutsuka" :)

BTW, I am sure I am not 100% right. someone correct me please.