Rohai?

[twendkata71]

I have a question for someone with a bit more knowledge than I in the history of Shotokan/Wado ryu.
Why did Ohtsuka keep Rohai in his curriculum,which was taught to him by Funakoshi, but Funakoshi did not keep the kata in Shotokan? I have been told that Meikyo is a recreation from Rohai, but it looks nothing like Rohai. Wereas, Wado ryu's version of Rohai still resembles the original Rohai. Any thoughts,or insight?
Perhaps Ohtsuka learned Rohai from Mabuni? He did learn from Mabuni as well. Eventhough, Funakoshi would most likely have learned Rohai from Itosu in his training.

[exile]

My TKD instructor teaches Rohai. I'd always assumed that it came down in our Song Moo Kwan lineage, via Byung Jik Ro, who founded the SMK, from Funakoshi himself, along with a number of other karate kata that we do. That would have made sense, because BJR was intensely loyal to Funakoshi, whom he reached fourth dan ranking under during the 1930s. But now I read in your post that Funakoshi himself didn't teach Rohai in his Shotokan curriculum. So all of a sudden I have to wonder, where did we get it from??

[terryl965]

I read in your post that Funakoshi himself didn't teach Rohai in his Shotokan curriculum.

OK I'm at amazment here because I was under the impression he tought it in the early years of his Shotokan curriculum. It was taken out after a couple of years. Now I have to do some more research on this.

[arnisador]

From Wikipedia on Rohai (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rohai):


The Rohai kata are a family of kata practiced in some styles of karate. The name translates approximately to "vision of a Crane" or "vision of a heron". The kata originated from the Tomari-te school of Okinawan martial arts. It was called Matsumora Rohai, after Kosaku Matsumora, who was presumably its inventor. Anko Itosu later took this kata and developed three kata from it: Rohai shodan, Rohai nidan, and Rohai sandan.

In modern Karate, some styles teach all three kata (such as Shito ryu). However, other styles employ only one of them as a kata (such as Wado-ryu, which teaches Rohai shodan as Rohai). Gichin Funakoshi, founder of Shotokan, redeveloped and renamed Rohai as Meikyo (明鏡), literally "bright mirror", often translated as "mirror of the soul." Meikyo is a combination of all three different Rohai kata, containing elements of each.

[exile]

From Wikipedia on Rohai (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rohai):

Thanks for the pointer, Arni. I'm gonna see if I can dig up some clips of Rohai and Meikyo and see how they compare with the version we do....

[searcher]

Thanks for the pointer, Arni. I'm gonna see if I can dig up some clips of Rohai and Meikyo and see how they compare with the version we do....

The Rohai from my style, Chito-ryu, looks nothing like Meikyo. I can't even see Meikyo as a shadow of Rohai, they are very different.

[twendkata71]

[SIZE=4]That is what I am saying. If Meikyo was developed from Rohai, why then does it not resemble Rohai in the least? And Why would Funakoshi take rohai out of his karate? I am sure he learned it. Perhaps it was taken out by one of his students. Like Nakayama? Or one of his sons. There were kata added to Shotokan after Funakoshi. Perhaps Ohtsuka really did learn Rohai from Mabuni. That group did get together and exchange ideas,kata,etc. [/SIZE=4] And to answer the question of one person, I was refering to Modern Shotokan, that Funakoshi and his students taught in later years to current.

[twendkata71]

To respond to exile. Master Ro while learning from Funakoshi at the Shotokan would have come into contact with Mabuni,Konishi,and Ohtsuka as well. They may have had some influence on his learning.
Perhaps you could ask Master Anderson of the USAKF/CTA, he was a direct student of Master Ro's.

[exile]

To respond to exile. Master Ro while learning from Funakoshi at the Shotokan would have come into contact with Mabuni,Konishi,and Ohtsuka as well. They may have had some influence on his learning.
Perhaps you could ask Master Anderson of the USAKF/CTA, he was a direct student of Master Ro's.

Good suggestion, Twendkata! :asian:

That's a plausible scenario you've sketched. Gm. Ro would have had to be on the scene for quite a while to get that fourth dan ranking, so it's very likely, as you say that he came into contact with some of the other luminaries of the early Okinawan/Japanese karate world.

Can you let me know Master Anderson's first name? I'll try to dig up his contact information....

And thanks!

[terryl965]

Good suggestion, Twendkata! :asian:

That's a plausible scenario you've sketched. Gm. Ro would have had to be on the scene for quite a while to get that fourth dan ranking, so it's very likely, as you say that he came into contact with some of the other luminaries of the early Okinawan/Japanese karate world.

Can you let me know Master Anderson's first name? I'll try to dig up his contact information....

And thanks!

I beleive that would be Master George E. Anderson 9th Dan who was inducted into the USAFK Hall of Frame in 1980. He was also the man the man the year awards. here is a list off his achievments. Founder, JJIF Commissioner & Advisor, Chair, Central Technical Committee, Athlete

Hope that helps you a little.

[searcher]

Master Ro while learning from Funakoshi at the Shotokan would have come into contact with Mabuni,Konishi,and Ohtsuka as well. They may have had some influence on his learning.



As you have stated, he would have been exposed to these other masters. It was not uncommon for one master to send a student to learn something from another master as was common practice on Okinawa. I read a piece just last week about Funakoshi sending a student to Mabuni to learn a couple of kata. If I can find the article I will post a link.

[exile]

I beleive that would be Master George E. Anderson 9th Dan who was inducted into the USAFK Hall of Frame in 1980. He was also the man the man the year awards. here is a list off his achievments. Founder, JJIF Commissioner & Advisor, Chair, Central Technical Committee, Athlete

Hope that helps you a little.

Helps me a lot, Terry—many thanks for the information! :)

Interesting that Master Anderson studied with Gm. Ro... an awful lot of those early 'golden era' karate folks seem to have had more than a passing acquaintance with KMAs and TKD/TSD training, eh? Master Anderson, Chuck Norris, Skipper Mullins, Joe Lewis (I believe)... very interesting!


As you have stated, he would have been exposed to these other masters. It was not uncommon for one master to send a student to learn something from another master as was common practice on Okinawa. I read a piece just last week about Funakoshi sending a student to Mabuni to learn a couple of kata. If I can find the article I will post a link.

That would be much appreciated, searcher!

[twendkata71]

GrandMaster Anderson's website is:
www.usakarate.org (http://www.usakarate.org) He is originally a Taekwondo person, later studying with GM Suzuki at the Seibukan international in Japan as well as many other masters. He was the Style head for Taekwondo with the USKA(Trias's organization) in the 70's and early 80's before starting the USAKF and revamping the AAU karate program in the mid 80's. I am not sure why he went with karate instead of his Taekwondo, had something to do with politics of the time and Korean control. I believe his email address is: usakf@imperium.net
He trained for many years with GM Ro.

[exile]

GrandMaster Anderson's website is:
www.usakarate.org (http://www.usakarate.org) He is originally a Taekwondo person, later studying with GM Suzuki at the Seibukan international in Japan as well as many other masters. He was the Style head for Taekwondo with the USKA(Trias's organization) in the 70's and early 80's before starting the USAKF and revamping the AAU karate program in the mid 80's. I am not sure why he went with karate instead of his Taekwondo, had something to do with politics of the time and Korean control. I believe his email address is: usakf@imperium.net He trained for many years with GM Ro.

Brilliant, Twendkata, thanks to you (and Terry) again!

I think the political aspect of things accounts for an awful lot of MA history. It could well have been the same kind of thing that Terry and I have talked about on several threads, including one recent one—the controlling aspect of the big TKD federations and their top-down agenda. I can imagine that a lot of US practitioners in particular might well have reacted negatively to the mold that WTF/KKW seem to have been forcing TKD into... karate is so much less centralized, and long may it be so!

I'll write to Master Anderson and will post any response I get from him.

[Jin Gang]

Shotokan Meikyo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1Z-DiOzG0E

Wado Rohai
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S28znFKWAfk

Shito Rohai
itosu rohai
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RggR3bcC8jk
matsumura no rohai
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYASKyvteIw

Matsubayashi Rohai
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EaTlPtju7ug

I can see that meikyo is based on Itosu's rohai kata. Wado's rohai is the same as shito ryu's Itosu rohai number 1. It makes sense that this is what Funakoshi would have known, and taught, in his earlier years teaching (if he taught it at all...maybe only in private to advanced students).

Shito Ryu's Matsumura no rohai (not sure if it is meant to be Matsumora) is the same as Matsubayashi Ryu's rohai, sometimes called Tomari no Rohai also, with small differences in stance and an extra double punch at the end. (also note, various shito ryu schools may or may not teach all the rohai kata, but supposedly some of them have Itosu rohai 1-3 as well as tomari/matsumura rohai)

Meikyo and matsubayashi's tomari rohai are on opposite ends of the spectrum, when I first saw meikyo I couldn't see the relation either. But watch the Matsubayashi version, then the shito ryu versions, then wado, then meikyo, and you can see the evolution. One common element is the series of double punches, followed by a spin and two shuto uke, which is at the end of all the kata.

[Makalakumu]

Here is a great discussion regarding the TSD Rohai and its applications...

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=37375

[twendkata71]

Yes, now I can see it. But why did Funakoshi take out the crane stances? and the takedown?
I had to watch all of those kata in sequence to see it. Thanks for the information.

[searcher]

Yes, now I can see it. But why did Funakoshi take out the crane stances? and the takedown?
I had to watch all of those kata in sequence to see it. Thanks for the information.


Not that it is an answer to your question, but I wonder if it was in his attempt to make it more suitable for school kids and PE classes? Something to ponder.

[Makalakumu]

I don't know why the takedown was taken out. All I can say is that a lot of the takedowns and throws were removed from Japanese Karate so that it did not compete with judo. Funakoshi emphasized the striking aspects in order to please the Japanese at the time.

[Jin Gang]

Yes, now I can see it. But why did Funakoshi take out the crane stances? and the takedown?
I had to watch all of those kata in sequence to see it. Thanks for the information.

This sort of question could be asked about almost all shotokan kata. Who decided to make all these changes and why? There are probably lots of answers we can guess at, but we'll never know for sure. I wouldn't assume Funakoshi Gichin himself made all the changes, some things evolved over time, based on the preferences and understanding of his students. Making the jump from Okinawan culture, which has lots of Chinese influence, to Japanese culture was a big part of it, I think.

[exile]

Rob Redmond has an interesting take on Funakoshi's relationship to the content of Shotokan, and its current practice, here (http://www.24fightingchickens.com/2006/01/29/funakoshi-man-vs-myth/)...

[dancingalone]

Rob Redmond has an interesting take on Funakoshi's relationship to the content of Shotokan, and its current practice, here (http://www.24fightingchickens.com/2006/01/29/funakoshi-man-vs-myth/)...


Thanks for the link. It was an interesting read although I think Rob Redmund's scepticism of bunkai is too much shaped by his background as a shotokan karateka. I bet if he studied shorin-ryu, he'd be more favorably inclined towards it, since all the shorin-ryu people I've met were heavily interested in bunkai study and it's an understood as a key part of the curriculum.

That said, I do agree that much bunkai today is reverse-engineered. It happens when one starts cross-training with a grappling art and begin to see the possibilities within the traditional kata. However this does not preclude the possibility of bunkai really being handed down from teacher to student over the decades. I suppose if you're an Okinawan guy in Okinawa your chances of being exposed to the applications are greater than if you're Joe Schmo learning in Anytown, USA. Hate to be a snob, but sometimes your lineage really does matter.

[TimoS]

Yes, now I can see it. But why did Funakoshi take out the crane stances? and the takedown?

You know, it wasn't necessarily Funakoshi who did the changes. As I've understood it, a lot of the changes attributed to Funakoshi were in fact instituted later by his students. I can ask my sources about what they think is the reason for the original question, as I'm not that well versed in Shotokan history

[Ray B]

Nishiyama is notorious for changing kata. If you look at him, Oshima
and Kanazawa, you will see big differences.

[HankinSalem]

I think that nobody will ever know the truth about kata.

This is especially true if you get to know people like John Sells who will show you old versions of kata that really add to the confusion.

Case in point: John taught my school a kata name "Koryu Jion" last March when he was up here in the Northwest visiting.

This kata has pretty much all the moves of modern Jion AND Matsumura Rohai in it, intertwined. Fairly obviously, someone, somehwhere and when took this kata and extracted one set of moves to make Rohai and another set of moves to make modern Jion.

Who, when? Who knows.

John has also taught a kata name Tomoyori Sanchin that was used by the only guy given a shihan license by BOTH Mabuni Kenwa and Miyagi Chojun. This kata has Sanchin, Tensho and most of Seisan in it and comes from the late 1920s, early 1930s, before these kata were formalized.

[TimoS]

This kata has pretty much all the moves of modern Jion AND Matsumura Rohai in it, intertwined. Fairly obviously, someone, somehwhere and when took this kata and extracted one set of moves to make Rohai and another set of moves to make modern Jion.


Or someone put those two separate kata together and called it Koryu Jion. I'm not saying that that is what happened, what I'm saying that it could've also happened for all we know. Just as an example, I was told of one guy who apparently knew Channan, but in fact it was just all five Pinan kata done one after another.

[cstanley]

I've read Sells' book and, though it is very helpful in many ways, I believe he is reaching a bit in places.