watching black belt classes

[rachel]

In your school can the lower ranking students watch the black belt classes work out? In my school they don't let you do that.curious .

[jfarnsworth]

Sure they can. It's not like there's something secretly secret going on in class. In mine there's a guy that shows up with his notebook and he's wearing a purple belt. The instructor doesn't care because he knows the guy can't participate but parents or other students watch all of the time. This doesn't distract me cause I could care less who is there.

[white belt]

Let me guess, the classes are 45-60 minutes in length?

white belt

[Bob Hubbard]

In mine, the lower belts are welcome to not only watch, but participate if they like. The only 'limit' is that that class is for the blackbelts to work on their material, so if youre gonna play ya better be able to keep up.

:asian:

[TkdWarrior]

Black belts hav to train with lower belts...
they hav to work hard here so that lower belt can see n feel what it makes to be BB...
No closed door teaching...
if u need any help my teacher wouldn't mind u helping anytime(even in his free time), i used to go to his house in chill winter around 5.35 Am n used to wake him up so that we can go n practice before class :D if he didn't get up i used to hang up notes(sometimes with faces :D) on his doors
class r basically for 60 minutes but before that everyone r supposed to do warm up for at least 20 minutes

-TkdWarrior-

[MartialArtist]

Black belt classes?

You first have to ask if most of the people are worthy of having a black belt. And black belt classes that are as secretive as the CIA gives weird impressions.

Black belt classes IMO should be viewed by everyone. They should even participate if they want to although not getting in the black belts' way.

The only real danger is if they watch and think they can do the techniques just by watching other people do it. And a lot of the times, the technique is bad. To make matters worse, you get no teaching so you're going to have it even worse. It's like thinking you can box Klitschko in Las Vegas because you just studied how he fought against Byrd. Or you trying to do a pile driver because you watched one soap opera episode of the WWF.

But if a lower-ranked student wants to drill with the higher belts and maybe even spar if they don't go full-contact against the lower belts, they can learn a lot.

To learn, you must train with the best

[cali_tkdbruin]

Yes, at my dojang the lower ranking practitioners are allowed to watch the black belts train, but, I've never seen any stick around to do so. :shrug:

I think it's good to let the junior ranks watch so that they can get an idea of what will be expected of them when they do join the BB club.

[ace]

The Belt only Covers 2 inches of the Behined
The Rest is up To u.
_____________________--------------------------

All Belts are Welcome.

[cali_tkdbruin]

Originally posted by ace
The Belt only Covers 2 inches of the Behined
The Rest is up To u.
_____________________--------------------------

All Belts are Welcome.


RIGHT!!!

[karatekid1975]

In my dojang, all the advanced ranks (from blue on up) train together. But they do have a seperate BB class on wednsdays. That gives the BB's a chance to work on their stuff with people of the same rank. I saw a BB class once, and I hear all the time what goes on in that class. But I work on wednsday nights, so it's hard to watch that night. I don't even know if it's allowed.:shrug:

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz
In mine, the lower belts are welcome to not only watch, but participate if they like. The only 'limit' is that that class is for the blackbelts to work on their material, so if youre gonna play ya better be able to keep up.

:asian:

And so it is in Yiliquan training.

Sometimes I can see excluding others from participating in senior level classes (for their own safety), but to keep them from watching? I suppose the argument could be made that you wouldn't want a junior student trying something he/she saw but did not "learn" in a class, and thereby getting injured, but then you'd have to restrict them from watching videos and movies to boot...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

[cali_tkdbruin]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1
And so it is in Yiliquan training.

Sometimes I can see excluding others from participating in senior level classes (for their own safety), but to keep them from watching? I suppose the argument could be made that you wouldn't want a junior student trying something he/she saw but did not "learn" in a class, and thereby getting injured, but then you'd have to restrict them from watching videos and movies to boot...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

Right again. How are you going to stop them from watching those videos and movies? You just can't.

IMHO, it's still better not to keep it such a big secret, and just let the lower ranks watch so that they'll know what they're in for... :asian:

[cdhall]

Originally posted by white belt
Let me guess, the classes are 45-60 minutes in length?

white belt

I don't understand who this was directed to or what it means. Elaborate if you like.

I think it the Journey that Mr. Hebler or Mr. Sullivan said that they used to close the doors for the Black Belt workouts and no one was allowed to watch because they didn't want to scare off the new people.

I've heard new students comment "I could never do that..." so I think I understand their point.

I agree with Yiliquan1 that you can't keep someone from seeing something so that is not a good reason to exclude them from watching a workout. Besides, if you your students at your school don't know that they might not be able to do or perhaps should not even try to do everything they see then there is a teaching deficiency. The Head Instructor should know his students well enough to know if they can "hurt themselves" by watching a class.

I can see both sides of the issue. In my original studio you had to get an invitation to come and watch. In my current school the Black Belts don't have a dedicated workout so they are in with the Brown Belts anyway, sort of like having your goal right in front of you, but if they did have their own class I'd imagine that anyone could come and watch if they did not interfere.

I was invited to watch some Black Belt private lessons for a while and I volunteered to take notes for them. I took over 50 pages of notes through Purple Belt I think. They were reviewing etc, but eventually they asked me to join them and I kept up but it was not my class to ask questions... I just participated and it was a great experience.

[GouRonin]

Dave Hebler told me once that they used to have exclusive black belt classes back in the day where they would lock the doors and no one but browns and blacks could get in. Mostly to keep the material secret, because back then the EPAK was newer, but also because they used to be violent as hell and people watching were really upset and often they lost students because of it.

I asked him one day why they locked the doors, to keep people out? He told me also to keep people IN...

[TKDman]

Originally posted by MartialArtist
To learn, you must train with the best

That is so true with everything in life.

[Jill666]

In my school anyone can watch the bb class. My old classmates watch from time to time to see what they are going for, and sometimes the beginners will stick around. My training partner & I, along with a couple of others at times, come in 2 hours early to stretch & work out, practice, etc. So we sometimes point out to a admiring white belt how that technique they are working on is right here in this kata, that they are learning the foundation now, and will build on it every day. I hope that is encouraging.

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by GouRonin
Dave Hebler told me once that they used to have exclusive black belt classes back in the day where they would lock the doors and no one but browns and blacks could get in. Mostly to keep the material secret, because back then the EPAK was newer, but also because they used to be violent as hell and people watching were really upset and often they lost students because of it.

I asked him one day why they locked the doors, to keep people out? He told me also to keep people IN...
If every person who ran a school had that attitude, then there would be no talk on McDojos, etc.

[cali_tkdbruin]

Originally posted by MartialArtist
If every person who ran a school had that attitude, then there would be no talk on McDojos, etc.

Holy sheeat! No doubt that's for sure... :eek:

And what a great way to eliminate Mc Dojo/Dojangs. ;)

[jfarnsworth]

Originally posted by GouRonin
I asked him one day why they locked the doors, to keep people out? He told me also to keep people IN...

This reminds me of the movie A Bronx Tale. When the bikers go into the bar and the owner locks the door and tells them now they cant' leave.:rofl: And yes. This would eliminate all of the crap teaching out there.

[Shinzu]

lower ranks in my school can watch a black belt class. they are not able to participate unless they will be testing soon.

i think BB classes are good. sometimes you dont get a chance to go over the advanced material when there are different ranks on the floor.:karate:

[GouRonin]

We finally have a solution for McDojo's!

We'll call it...

THE DAVE HEBLER SOLUTION!

[lvwhitebir]

Originally posted by jfarnsworth
This reminds me of the movie A Bronx Tale. When the bikers go into the bar and the owner locks the door and tells them now they cant' leave.:rofl: And yes. This would eliminate all of the crap teaching out there.

Ok, you got me confused. How would this do anything to eliminate so called "McDojos" or crap teaching? Any time you hide information you help foster "McDojos". Hiding information keeps you from determining if it's "for real" until you've invested too much time in.

I believe that you should let people watch the class, if they want, but not participate until they've reached that level. As mentioned previously, that lets them work on their own material that they might not get to work on with lower belts impeding them.

WhiteBirch

[white belt]

Originally posted by lvwhitebir
Ok, you got me confused. How would this do anything to eliminate so called "McDojos" or crap teaching? Any time you hide information you help foster "McDojos". Hiding information keeps you from determining if it's "for real" until you've invested too much time in.

I believe that you should let people watch the class, if they want, but not participate until they've reached that level. As mentioned previously, that lets them work on their own material that they might not get to work on with lower belts impeding them.

WhiteBirch

CD Hall,

White Birch just hit the nail on the head. The short 45 minute class structure can more easily hide the lack of content in a McDojo. The "higher level" classes are then taught seperately and secretly as a ruse that there is more info./lessons material waiting than there actually is. A $$$$ ploy. By the time the student is ready to go beyond the veil, they have paid out a considerable chunk of change. There may be 1 or 2 advanced classes as compared to 4-6 beginner to intermediate. This is explained away as "Not everybody can handle the higher level training". In a McDojo setting, the reality is the "new" advanced student sees B.S. and a good many discontinue training making for a smaller advanced class. No, not all schools who use this class structure are doing this. It is just easier to manipulate the uninformed WITH this class structure.

An honest school owner,
white belt

[Johnathan Napalm]

If people really think there are some "secret techniques" being taught at those blackbelt classes that they need to be protected behind close doors, that is truly very sad.

[bart]

In our WC school we had a beginning and an advanced class. The advanced class was restricted to a certain rank and above. The lower ranks were allowed to watch. It served to create an environment for the higher grades to work on their material at a faster pace. The higher grades were allowed to train in the lower class if the wanted to, but they wouldn't be awarded credit toward grading for it. Many of us did.

It seems to me that when you achieve "black belt" that you actually begin learning the system. So it's not so much new content that you get in a black belt class, but rather an environment where people already have a certain knowledge level and can refine their techniques and practice. Lower ranks do need to touch hands with higher ranks to grow, but that can always be done through the instructor instead of the other students.

Analogizing a black belt rank to a high school diploma, it's never been a graduation requirement for highschoolers to attend a university course. A highschooler might actually disrupt the learning in a university class with a lack of prerequisite knowledge for the subject and maturity in the school environment. But it most definitely is a requirement for a student to have finished high school to attend university.

I also do Eskrima and with the weapon based arts, it's necessary to have the students get to a certain level of skill before they can participate in some aspects of training. If they don't have the skills they are more likely to get hurt and also they are more likely to cause injury to other students because they lack control.

[Zepp]

Perhaps it's just because I've never had the displeasure of attending a McDojo, but I've never met an instructor who wouldn't let someone at least watch a class. If they prohibit just watching, you should be a bit suspicious.

I have heard of martial arts clubs having separate "Black Belt only" workouts, but that's different than formal instruction.

[jfarnsworth]

Originally posted by lvwhitebir
Ok, you got me confused. How would this do anything to eliminate so called "McDojos" or crap teaching? Any time you hide information you help foster "McDojos". Hiding information keeps you from determining if it's "for real" until you've invested too much time in.

I believe that you should let people watch the class, if they want, but not participate until they've reached that level. As mentioned previously, that lets them work on their own material that they might not get to work on with lower belts impeding them.

WhiteBirch


First off. My first martial arts instructor used to teach out of his garage. At this point when I joined his school we did nothing but sparring. The highest rank student at that point just tested for purple on my 2nd class. He would ask this person to teach class and had asked each time what do you want to do. His response always was spar. Our dues were minimal. If your head got bounced off of the block wall then oh well that's just what happened. If you didn't like it then you just left. Eventually you weed out the ones who don't want to stick around. The class was 2 hrs. and that's just about exactly what you sparred every class. I believe if you shut the door and lock it no one leaves you put up your nuts and train like men. If you don't like to train that way then you leave. This is my opinion. This is my point of getting rid of mcdojos. There's no time for the people who say I can't do this or that and the instructor changes the class to accomidate all of the chronic complainers and whiners.
Next question. I tried a little bit last year to go off on my own and teach. I found no one wanted to train in kenpo from me. I don't pussyfoot around and have no tolerance for the whiners and complainers. My first class teaching I had to get rid of someone. They must have been in the mcdojo phase with a 1st black as well. After I was done teaching he said this stuff ain't for me. I had then asked if I gave too much info. or just not enough. I don't hold or hide information that is important to personal growth in the style I love to devote my life to.
Lastly, I don't and wouldn't have any problem with anyone watching any class. The lower ranks should be aloud to watch and see what is to come in their future. Before I studied kenpo I seen one partial of a class and seen someone perform long form 4. This was all that I needed to know of the style and that it was for me. As far as a lower rank participating with any BB I find no reason why that shouldn't happen. The greatest control will come from the seasoned BB. It would be a little harder however if one never sparred until they reached that belt but Rachel has a real dilhema here. All I can say is that the first class I sparred in I got beat around beat up and I'm still around 13 yrs. later practicing the martial arts. I hope that I answered your questions.

[GouRonin]

Good post Jason. Lots of good thoughts and ideas. Kudos!
:asian:

[feintem]

I am a part of O.A.K.K.A
And Ido run my school in that format.
I beleve that it is a privilege and not a right to work out with upper rank.







Earn what you learn,
nothing good in this world is free!!!



Michael Grilli

[rmcrobertson]

Just to speak up for us, "complainers and whiners," the idea of getting into a garage and doing, "nothing but spar," for two hours is not a great one, in my opinion.

Sure, it worked out well for you. And that's great. But for the great majority of us, it's not so good. We came into martial arts looking for self-defense and some other things, not so much to become great fighters. We'd quit, and we'd be right. Moreover, in a period when all sorts of backyard physical violence seems good, why add to it? Is that really what martial arts are supposed to be?

I learned, first, in a backyard and driveway. And that's where I did my first sparring, and got my ass politely kicked. But whacking my head against a cinder-block wall---no. What's the point in that? I do know some people--several, in fact--who started training in similar scenes. They got injured, aa lot--in two cases pretty badly (I'm talking knees aand backs, not black eyes and bloody noses), and what's perhaps worse their training is still warped, in my opinion, because of it.

Again, I think it's great that this worked out for you. But I don't think it'd work for many, and I don't think this represents some decline in the martial arts, either. The spirit you describe is obviously great--but there has to be some structure, too.

Thanks.

[jfarnsworth]

When we started training in the garage days at my instructors school he definately weeded out the weaker students. The fees were so minimal that he could have cared less if you were there or not. People getting bounced off of the garage wall it happened but hey most tried not to. Once he commercialized (i guess) he started introducing the forms and self-defense techniques into the system. When he got established and he knew the people were going to stick around this is when we really started training TKD. After going to a few tournaments we started changing our fighting style to closely fit the TKD tournaments. Our katas were doing fine and hanging with the others in the same style. The self-defense aspect had aikido mixed in as well. The studio started to change once he got a little too big and had to accomidate all the people who didn't want to kick, punch, forms, spar etc. At this point things started to go badly. The quality of people were going down hill. No one in the class really liked me which didn't bother me too much but I didn't like 20 or so people saying "do we have to kick more". Something along those lines are when I knew i had to leave. Luckily for me Kenpo was just around the corner. Hopefully this was of more clarity.

[rachel]

At class last night I talked to one of the black belts, she's the only black belt in our group and she said she doesn't do the black belt only class because it's too violent. so maybe that's why we aren't allowed to watch because it might scare some people off like one of you implied.

[jfarnsworth]

That's probably more like the answer you were seeking.

[Jill666]

Oh, I'm having a strong reaction to THAT comment- why the hell is she a black belt? If she cannot handle herself in a class- unless the class is out of control in which case the instructor needs to step in. I'm not getting that at all.

I'm not big or tough (well, a little tough) but I sure as hell walk into three different dojos weekly and there are only black belts, only males in all three classes. Never have I felt intimidated.

I truly don't understand what the deal is here. There is something seriously not right in this scenario.:angry:

[Hollywood1340]

Originally posted by Jill666
Oh, I'm having a strong reaction to THAT comment- why the hell is she a black belt? If she cannot handle herself in a class- unless the class is out of control in which case the instructor needs to step in. I'm not getting that at all.

I'm not big or tough (well, a little tough) but I sure as hell walk into three different dojos weekly and there are only black belts, only males in all three classes. Never have I felt intimidated.

I truly don't understand what the deal is here. There is something seriously not right in this scenario.:angry:
Jill, I agree completly. Blackbelts are there to help you you lean and train. Being cut off from them seems rather supiscious. Just my thoughts!

[Shinzu]

BB classes are not meant to be violent in my opinion. there is so much more to learn when you become a BB. in fact it has more to do with not fighting than fighting. you are at a level where self control is an important part of your training. ppl that hold BB classes and pounce on eachother need to learn the true meaning of what a black belt really stands for!!

[rmcrobertson]

I recollect the first time I saw a brown and black test--scared the crap (well, not all, but some) out of me. And I recollect going to my first advanced classes as a green belt--scared the crap out of me. So I can see why the Powers That Be might want such tests, and classes, closed--but it ain't the 40s and 50s anymore. There's something to be said for openness.

I also agree with Jill 666--there's something fishy going on, when a woman with a black belt says that she doesn't go to advanced class because it's, "too violent." Here are reasons that I've seen people stay out of such classes that I believe are perfectly legit:

a) you're a musician, and can't risk your hands. I know two black belts like this, one a guy, one a gal. She's a violinist; he's a guitarist. My first teacher says it takes more guts for the guy to stay out of those classes, given his temperament, than for me to go into them.
b) your schedule doesn't permit it--work, family, whatever.
c) you're ill, or you have a physical limitation of some sort.
d) you're young; or, you're old (I'm getting to the point that I can see an end--in maybe ten years).
e) it's taking you some time to deal with the concept, and your own--ah--fear.

But I also suspect that there are folks who stay out of such classes because they are a) arrogant putzes who don't want to have to really learn their art; b) unwilling to face up to their own issues; c) bullies who are afraid to risk getting hit and/or embarassed. Not so good, I think.

I too find it odd that a woman black belt should describe the class as, "too violent." I'd be interested to find out what that means--if it means, they hit but are controlled, she probably needs to get her ass to class; if it means, they hit in an arrogant, out-of-control good old boy I'm the god Macho way, she probably needs to get her ass out of that studio. Any way of finding out what, "too violent," means?

I think that if you keep training at a studio after ya gets a black belt, you have a responsibility or two. Among these are: accepting the fact that you are now at the bottom of a brand new totem pole, and you need to get over yourself and get yer tail to class with people who know a lot more than you do.

Thanks.

[rmcrobertson]

Oh, I forgot. Advanced class still scares me. And it should.

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by Shinzu
BB classes are not meant to be violent in my opinion.

So what should they be? Less violent?


there is so much more to learn when you become a BB. in fact it has more to do with not fighting than fighting.

That kind of thing isn't taught in a class... Learning about not fighting is a product of the training, not the training itself. The training is what is going on in class, the product is realized outside of class.


you are at a level where self control is an important part of your training.

Sure, self control is important, but the class environment with other high graded students is the arena in which you are able to train your skills, with control and plenty of power, without having to tone it down in order to provide for the safety of junior students... If anything, by the time you are a black belt, developing control shouldn't really be an issue any longer. You should have had pretty good self control long before you tied on that black belt...


ppl that hold BB classes and pounce on eachother need to learn the true meaning of what a black belt really stands for!!

"Black Belt classes" as I understand them are meant for students of the same level to be able to train without the necessary considerations that must be given to junior students in order to provide for their safety. All the wishy-washy mumbo-jumbo about the spiritual development of a "black belt" is all well and good. But what the heck is the classroom for, then? To come and learn about peaceful thoughts and how to control yourself? You could go to church/temple/synagogue/mosque/etc. for free to do that. Class instruction is meant to develop your skills. Sure, other things get passed along in the process, but you are at that school to train.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

[Shinzu]

point well taken, but we all have our own opinions. i still stick to mine.

[Jill666]

And I don't go to class to meditate, I go to learn, and fight. But why does this chick have a black belt if she isn't ready for the class? I still say something is wrong here, and not to point fingers (especially since I have limited info) but the instructor set the tone for the school. Either the class is out of hand, or this girl should not have a black belt. I know that's a black & white way of looking at it, but I call 'em as I see them.

:soapbox:

[jfarnsworth]

Intersting points. Let's say someone can perform all of the forms, sets, self-defense techniques, sparring techniques, breaking, basics and answer advanced questions about the art. (Or whatever it is you do in your art). If the individual in question can do all of this and pass the test do you not pass them? If this particular woman in question can't hang with the guys so to speak do you not give her the promotion based upon her skills as a martial artist? How would we know what her skills were like on the first day vs. the day she said she really wasn't interested in doing that class? Which by the way is what she really should have said not that it was too violent. I'm just curious on the viewpoints out there.

[Shinzu]

just because someone is not interested in these types of classes does not mean that they would not be able to defend themselves on the street.

i dont think it would be right to judge someone based on a specific skill. you must look at the whole picture. i know alot of black belts that are not aggressive in class, but they can handle themselves in other situations.

[jfarnsworth]

That's what I'm talking about.:asian: