TKD history - trying to find lineage

[YounWha]

Hello -
I am a student of Youn Wha Ryu. I am currently updating/correcting our GM's lineage due to the fact that we think their was mistranslation when his biography was taken many years ago. I am trying to gather multiple sources to cross-reference his history and the history of TKD.

Below is what I have so far and if anyone can verify/confirm/question that would be great.

Man Hee Han - born May 9, 1938
Received 8th Dan (TKD) from the 57th Promotion Test Tae Kwon Do Jidokwan by Lee, Chong Woo
12/17/1972
a) Can anyone cofirm a testing on this date?
b) Did this certificate come form the KTA or WTF org?

Received instructor certificate from Un Yong Kim
11/30/1974
a) Could this certificate be from KTA?
b) When did KTA turn into WTF?

Thanks

[Dave Leverich]

Due strictly to timeline:
A. No idea, sorry.
B. KTA

For the second part,
A. no, WTF was the controlling body by that time.
B. KTA turned into the WTF in 73

[Master K]

Based on the timeline:
A. I have no idea as well. You will need to contact a senior member of the Jidokwan to confirm this.
B. Often times the schools issued their own certificates. Hard to say if it came from an organization or the school itself. If it was a "taekwondo" certificate, then in all likelihood it came from the KTA.

A. If the name on the Instructor's certificate is Un Yong Kim, then it came from the Kukkiwon.
B. The KTA never turned into the WTF.

The Korean Taekwondo Association (KTA) was formed in 1959 to facilitate the unification of the differing schools in Korea at the time. In 1972, the Korea Taekwondo Association Central Dojang was opened. A few months later, the name was changed to the Kukkiwon. In 1973, the World Taekwondo Federation was formed.

Although the terms "WTF" and "Kukkiwon" are often mistakenly used interchangeably to refer to this organization (KTA), the Kukkiwon is a completely different organization which trains and certifies instructors and issues official dan and poom certificates worldwide. If you examine a Kukkiwon certificate closely, you will notice that it states "Kukkiwon - World Taekwondo Headquarters" in its logo and on the certificate. I believe it is this phrase that people misread and come to the conclusion that the WTF and Kukkiwon can be used interchangeably.

I hope this helps clarify a few points regarding the KTA, Kukkiwon, and the WTF.

Best of luck to you,
Master K

[YounWha]

Thanks for the responses...and I have more questions that maybe you can answer.

If the KTA turned into the Kukkiwon (around 1972) - then is it possible to have an instructor certificate from the KTA in 1974 from Kim, Un Yong?

When did Kim, Un Yong become president of the KTA?

Second certificate:
7th Dan Hwarang Do rank certificate (unknown date) signed by Young, Chin (Jin) Park

Is this legitimate?
What is Youn, Chin Park's history ?
Was he an original Jidokwan member?
Is my spelling of his name correct?
Did he practice Hwarang Do?


Another point I am trying to find a correction on is Byung In Yoon's teaching history. According to our history - its states Man Hee Han trained with Byung In Yoon when he was 13. But when Man Hee Man was 13 the Korean War was going on (or just started). I read that Byung In Yoon was forced into North Korea and little record of his life after that has been recorded.

Could Man Hee Han have trained with Byung In Yoon during or after the Korean War?

If not then I will need to find out when he did train with Byung In Yoon. (Note: GM Han speaks very little english to this day).
My guess is that he trained before the Korean War with Byung In Yoon...but did Byung In Yoon train people as young as 13 years old?

Thanks for all your help !




I guess lastly - is there a number here in the US or an email I could send to a senior member about these question?

[Master K]

I believe Un Yong Kim became President of the KTA in 1971. It was my understanding that the KTA is a national governing body of Tae Kwon Do in South Korea. Regarding your question, "Is it possible to have an instructor certificate form the KTA in 1974 from Kim, Un Yong", I will need to research and get back to you. It may take a few days.

What is the date on the Hwarangdo certificate?

If you are speaking of Byung in Yoon the founder of the YMCA Kwon Bup, this is what I know of him. During the Korean war Byung In Yoon stayed in North Korea. I don't know if this was by choice or by force. Rumors have circulated that it was by choice. But no one has been able to confirm that. Byung In Yoon has remained in North Korea until his death in 1983. It is my understanding that no students had contact with Byung In Yoon while he was in North Korea.

I don't know Man Hee Han, but I suspect that if he did train with Byung In Yoon it was for a very short and limited time.

I have to run. I will write more when I have more time and info.

[rmclain]

Information about Yoon Byung-in was provided by his family in South Korea in 2005 & 2006. He went by choice to N. Korea with his brother, Yoon Byung-du, in August 1950. He was partially forced to stay in N. Korea the remainder of his life. Apparently, N. Korea is not free like the US.

http://www.kimsookarate.com/intro/yoon/Byung_In_YoonrevMay3.pdf

Photos: http://www.kimsookarate.com/gallery-present/06_Yoon/06_Yoon.htm

R. McLain

[quote=Master K;892235]

If you are speaking of Byung in Yoon the founder of the YMCA Kwon Bup, this is what I know of him. During the Korean war Byung In Yoon stayed in North Korea. I don't know if this was by choice or by force. Rumors have circulated that it was by choice. But no one has been able to confirm that. Byung In Yoon has remained in North Korea until his death in 1983. It is my understanding that no students had contact with Byung In Yoon while he was in North Korea.
quote]

[YounWha]

The correct name for our founder is Man, Han Hee.

Youn Wha translates to "Water Lily" I am told...
any verification on translation?

[boricua581]

I have been searching for a lineage. But it is very hard. But one thing that I think would help is when (a rough date) were the Palgue forms being developed? Would anybody know this?

[Master K]

If you are referring to the Palgwe forms associated with the Kukkiwon, the date of their origin is 1967.

[YounWha]

What about this -

Could Youn Wha actually be Yeon Hwa?

What is Yeon Hwa - other than it translates to Lotus Flower - a type of water lily...

[howard]

Hi,


Could Youn Wha actually be Yeon Hwa?

Yes, yeon would be better... the hangul is 연.


What is Yeon Hwa - other than it translates to Lotus Flower - a type of water lily...

For lotus flower, I find "yeon kot mu nwe" (연꽂무늬) in a pretty good online Korean dictionary. Hwa (화) is usually translated as harmony.

Hope this helps...

[chrispillertkd]

For lotus flower, I find "yeon kot mu nwe" (연꽂무늬) in a pretty good online Korean dictionary. Hwa (화) is usually translated as harmony.

I believe "Hwa" can also be translated as flower, can't it? Hence the translations of Hwarang as "Flowering manhood," and other such terms.

Pax,

Chris

[YounWha]

Ok- I am stumped now. Can you help out RMCLAIN?
I was told by a guy on another website that he had contacted
GM Kim Soo to ask about my Grandmaster (GM HAN). He said
and I quote:
"GM Kim Soo will not speak of GMH other than to say that he knows him. I've tried."

Does anyone know what would be going on between these two?
Seems like there is bad blood between GM Kim Soo and GM Han.

[terryl965]

Ok- I am stumped now. Can you help out RMCLAIN?
I was told by a guy on another website that he had contacted
GM Kim Soo to ask about my Grandmaster (GM HAN). He said
and I quote:
"GM Kim Soo will not speak of GMH other than to say that he knows him. I've tried."

Does anyone know what would be going on between these two?
Seems like there is bad blood between GM Kim Soo and GM Han.


I am not at libety to say but I can tell you this they know each other and that about sums it up. Sometimes it is better left between them and for everyone to just leave it alone.

I do relize you are just looking for answers but sometimes answer are just not availablt to all.

I hope you can see though the pages and carry on.

[YounWha]

I am not at libety to say but I can tell you this they know each other and that about sums it up. Sometimes it is better left between them and for everyone to just leave it alone.

I do relize you are just looking for answers but sometimes answer are just not availablt to all.

I hope you can see though the pages and carry on.

Well dang it...

Well all I know is that GM Han has told us he was not the nicest guy back in the day and even in a gang. He is now a christian man and speaks highly of church and God.

I guess that may have something to do with it...
Anymore leads I can pursue besides GM Kim Soo?

[YounWha]

The only thing I got now is an hypothesis on our forms in Youn Wha.

Looks like most of our forms follow the pattern of the Kang Duk Won/WTF schools (basic forms and palgue) and the black belt forms are partly Kang Duk Won/WTF combinations.


Holy *bleep* I just figured something out...and possibly why Kim Soo and Han are ...going to check on something...

[boricua581]

It is all pretty confusing. Thank you Master K for the year in which the Palgwe froms were developed. It helped me. If everything I have is right, which I am pretty sure it is, from everything I looked up so far, then it should give a rough timeline. I hope this helps.


1937 or 38- GM Han born
1943- GM Han started training with Son Bop Sa
1949- Went back home
1950-Started training with Yoon Byung-In (but it is said that he left Korea that same year)


Achieved 8th dan in Hap Ki Do and Hwarang-Do, a 7th Dan in Kendo, and a 4th Dan in Judo (no dates found)

1967- Palgwe forms developed
1970-1976- Trained army

this is that past "records" that I have found so far. It helps a lot to look at it as a whole. There is another thing that is weird. But i also need help on this one too. Because I heard that GM Han was in the Korean army for some time, but I have no dates on that. And I am not sure when and where he was stationed or any of that information. But anyways. My Grandmaster in my other association was in the army too. But not at the same time as GM Han. My GM is younger than him, BUT his father was in the Korean army. Now here is the weird twist. My Grandmaster's father was assassinated. As far as I know, his father was a general, And Im guessing that they have the same last name. So his name is General Choi (but NOT the founder of ITF). The other part of the story is, that my instructor was telling me about GM Han telling sotries about a Gen. Choi who made POOR decisions. And here's the weird part. He said that the General was later assassinated. :erg: I thought that was really weird. Maybe somebody could help me too. I am still lookin around for info and stuff.

[YounWha]

boricua581 -
I see you train in Youn Wha Ryu as well (2nd Dan).
Which area do you train out of?

If you go to www.masterhans.com (http://www.masterhans.com) that has to evolving/updating events on GMH. I am talking to someone down there to help with the lineage. PM me your email and we can correspond from there about our findings.

According to their web site - we have this information:
May 9, 1938 GMH BORN

I was also told a story about General Choi and GMH - but it points to the Choi that founded the ITF - and that GMH was drinking a lot one night talking to Gen. Choi about his plans to bring korean martial arts abroad...and that Gen. Choi took GMH's ideas and used them to start the ITF...and now that's why GMH does not drink.

Put this in your time line as well:
1972 - GMH received 8th Dan from TKD Jidokwan 57th promotional testing
by Lee, Chong Woo

1974 - Received Instructor's certificate from Korea TKD Assn, signed by Kim, Un Yong dated 30 Nov, 1974

Let me know where you found information about GMH being in the korean military.

[YounWha]

Ok - this just slammed into me last night and I went to research it.

Our Chest Patch (fist punching) is exactly the same as the Kang Duk Won patches and located in the same spot on the uniforms.

Add the chest patch/forms in our system matching/GM Kim Soo knowing GMH - All this makes me believe that our system came from Kang Duk Won. Saying this also leads me to believe we are training on a more traditional style of TKD (mostly - some Okinawan and Judo in there).

GMH does not associate himself with WTF or the Kukkiwon or KTA (not that I know of) so our system and belts probably/mostly not recognized.



Is GM Kim Soo's system is still recognized by the Kukkiwon/KTA/WTF?

[YounWha]

Just in case if you missed it...

Is GM Kim Soo's system (Chayon Ryu) recognized by the Kukkiwon/KTA/WTF?

[Laurentkd]

Just in case if you missed it...

Is GM Kim Soo's system (Chayon Ryu) recognized by the Kukkiwon/KTA/WTF?

I would say that would solely depend on if he holds rank with Kukkiwon. Assuming he holds a high enough rank to promote those below him then yes, Kukkiwon would allow him to recognize his students under his system with a Kukkiwon certificate.

[YounWha]

I would say that would solely depend on if he holds rank with Kukkiwon. Assuming he holds a high enough rank to promote those below him then yes, Kukkiwon would allow him to recognize his students under his system with a Kukkiwon certificate.

Does anyone know the answer to this - Robert McLain...can you help?

[boricua581]

boricua581 -
I see you train in Youn Wha Ryu as well (2nd Dan).
Which area do you train out of?

If you go to www.masterhans.com (http://www.masterhans.com) that has to evolving/updating events on GMH. I am talking to someone down there to help with the lineage. PM me your email and we can correspond from there about our findings.

According to their web site - we have this information:
May 9, 1938 GMH BORN

I was also told a story about General Choi and GMH - but it points to the Choi that founded the ITF - and that GMH was drinking a lot one night talking to Gen. Choi about his plans to bring korean martial arts abroad...and that Gen. Choi took GMH's ideas and used them to start the ITF...and now that's why GMH does not drink.

Put this in your time line as well:
1972 - GMH received 8th Dan from TKD Jidokwan 57th promotional testing
by Lee, Chong Woo

1974 - Received Instructor's certificate from Korea TKD Assn, signed by Kim, Un Yong dated 30 Nov, 1974

Let me know where you found information about GMH being in the korean military.



I train in Ozarks in Missouri. My email is hotmail.com. And its my sing in name. Whenever you email me, on the subject, write somethinglike Youn Wha Ryu Findings all in capital letter. because I usually just skim through my emails and delete them if I dont recognize them. And that has been a problem a couple of times :p. But I will add those to my timeline. And for the GM Choi story. That is pretty interesting. Weird situation too. But the thing was that when I was told the story, I was told that Choi was assassinated. And Gen. Choi (ITF) passed away not to long ago. So I dont know. But I just thought that it would be weirdly ironic that two grandmasters have a tie like that. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon10.gif

[boricua581]

One thing that I was wondering, which I think would really help ALOT, is what are the association names of the arts that GM Han received his ranks in. And another thing that would help is the dates of all his ranks within those associations. I dont know who to talk to about that, but that would really help. I will post my revised timeline. Its NOT finished, but it's pretty good and I think it's pretty accurate. It also has other dates from different associations that were founded, which I think it would help to have a parallel type of source. But Im going to post this later, because I got make sure I have the dates that I got in order.

[YounWha]

One thing that I was wondering, which I think would really help ALOT, is what are the association names of the arts that GM Han received his ranks in. And another thing that would help is the dates of all his ranks within those associations. I dont know who to talk to about that, but that would really help. I will post my revised timeline. Its NOT finished, but it's pretty good and I think it's pretty accurate. It also has other dates from different associations that were founded, which I think it would help to have a parallel type of source. But Im going to post this later, because I got make sure I have the dates that I got in order.

I also have a timeline and theoretical lineage of GMH. The master's in Dallas are using my information along with their's and will be asking GMH directly once they get everything organized. The one thing I found out that all of our (TKD) forms from brown belt to 8th Dan are the same one's used in WTF today - minus TaeBaek...we don't do that form. The forms we call "Du-Tae" and "Hun-Kwon" are misspelled. They are actually spelled "Ji-Tae" and "Chun-Kwon".

The last form that we call "Keum-Gang-Jang" (jang means "form") could be one of two forms: Kum Gang Kwon (from Kang Duk Won) or Keum Gang (TKD). Since no one but GMH knows how to do this form in our system - I am not sure which one it is.

I will give you something to chew on...look at our patch on our uniform closely (chest patch)...then look at any Kan Duk Won patch (chest patch).

As far as ranking certificate's - the master's in Dallas have those and will be talking to GMH and getting those lined out as well. The problem is that the history of TKD and the power struggle at that time was going on...so GMH's certificates could have come from school's that the KTA either did not endorse or didn't know about.

[boricua581]

I also have a timeline and theoretical lineage of GMH. The master's in Dallas are using my information along with their's and will be asking GMH directly once they get everything organized. The one thing I found out that all of our (TKD) forms from brown belt to 8th Dan are the same one's used in WTF today - minus TaeBaek...we don't do that form. The forms we call "Du-Tae" and "Hun-Kwon" are misspelled. They are actually spelled "Ji-Tae" and "Chun-Kwon".

The last form that we call "Keum-Gang-Jang" (jang means "form") could be one of two forms: Kum Gang Kwon (from Kang Duk Won) or Keum Gang (TKD). Since no one but GMH knows how to do this form in our system - I am not sure which one it is.

I will give you something to chew on...look at our patch on our uniform closely (chest patch)...then look at any Kan Duk Won patch (chest patch).

As far as ranking certificate's - the master's in Dallas have those and will be talking to GMH and getting those lined out as well. The problem is that the history of TKD and the power struggle at that time was going on...so GMH's certificates could have come from school's that the KTA either did not endorse or didn't know about.


Sweeet. This is so exciting. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon10.gif Ji-Tae, Chun-Kwon, Tae Baek, and Keumgang!!! I know those forms. They are WTF and Jidokwan forms. They were incorporated into my old system as a "surprise" form for our dan testings. Keumgang is my favorite, I have to say. :p If you look at the pattern that it makes it makes like a T shape. And on the top line of the T, (on the endpoints on that top line) there are | going down. LOL . Itas hard to explain. its one of these things [ ...There we go. A braquet. thats the top of the T. But ANYWAYS. I do know the form. It is starting to make more sense now. I saw the patch. :erg: VERY INTERESTING!!! Im guessing that would also be a "branch" to look into. SWEET!!!. Well, Im working on the timeline I have so far. Like I said before I am not sure when I will be able to post it because I am going to be SUPER busy this week. I got finals this week and I plan on traveling at the end of the week. And I gotta study. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon9.gifhttp://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon8.gif:nuke: UGH!!! And when you get the info on the testing dates and certificates and stuff you can email me. I check my email no less than twice a day. So you can email me there. Or which ever you prefer. Well I better get going. CYA

[YounWha]

Boricua -

If you train in the Ozarks I just found out Master Katie and Zack have copies of some of GMH's certificates. Can you drop by there and take some digital photos of at least write down what they say?

[terryl965]

Boricua -

If you train in the Ozarks I just found out Master Katie and Zack have copies of some of GMH's certificates. Can you drop by there and take some digital photos of at least write down what they say?


I would like to see them myself my interest is jst killing me now. This has brought up some interest in me as to all these questions.

[boricua581]

Boricua -

If you train in the Ozarks I just found out Master Katie and Zack have copies of some of GMH's certificates. Can you drop by there and take some digital photos of at least write down what they say?



I would take a picture, but I dont have a camera that connects to the computer. I will see if I can drop in, beacuse I have been out for a while http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon9.gif Ive been trying to concentrate on school. But I there is somebody that I could talk to that can help me. I also have another idea. I was also thinking about asking on the YW forum on the main association website. Because even the masters look at that on a regular basis. That sounds pretty good too. Ill let you know what I come up with.

[Master K]

My research has indicated that it is possible to have an instructor certificate from the KTA in 1974 from Kim Un Yong. Please let me know if I can be of any further assistance.

By the way, please keep us posted of your progress with the lineage. Good luck in your quest.

[YounWha]

Boricua -

I would wait to ask questions on the Youn Wha web site. I don't want to stir up things for everyone in our association right now - we are trying to keep things behind the scenes until we figure everything out and ask GMH. I don't want everyone going up to GMH and asking questions...he may get upset.
Basically we need the masters to ask him directly out of respect.

Master K -

Thanks for the research - my findings state the same thing. I have got a "theory" booklet made but am waiting for confirmation from GMH.

[Laurentkd]

I am a little confused. If the Grandmaster that you are trying to make this timeline for is still living, why don't you just ask him (or ask someone to ask him) these questions? Is this a project you are doing individually for your own knowledge?

[YounWha]

I am a little confused. If the Grandmaster that you are trying to make this timeline for is still living, why don't you just ask him (or ask someone to ask him) these questions? Is this a project you are doing individually for your own knowledge?

He is still alive - but I have been told that korean's are private in nature and that if I just started asking him questions he may take it as I doubt him and think he is lying. The master's in Dallas will be formally taking him out to eat and interviewing him sometime in the future.

I am just gathering info and questions to give to the master's so they can ask him in a respectful way. Also his english is poor and there is a possible mistranslation so we are trying to cover all the bases.
Also GMH doesn't care about his past - but we need that information when he passes away or we may never know.

[YounWha]

회장 한 만 회

Can anyone translate this - it's on my certificate but I am coming up with something crazy.

"Chairman of 1 million times"

[YounWha]

I got it now - the spacing of the hanguls will kill you...

회장한만회

Chairman Han Man Hee