knockout

[muayThaiPerson]

man, in school, this guy started problems with me just cuz he thought i wouldnt do anything. im not a big guy, but he is...so he started to talk about my family and making fun of me. i dont even know this guy. well i told him he'd better shut up. i was quite mad at the moment and didnt know wat to do. so i started to curse. i told him to shut the f*** up. he was like "what?you think your hard now?". i told him i didnt do anything and asked wat his problem was. then my big mouth friend said i was a MAist. thats when i knew there was going to be a fight. he started to mock me. after school, i was walking to the corner and i saw him. so i walked to the opposite street. the f***er came over and started pushing me and asked why "I was talking ***** about him in class". when i pushed back, he swung. i didnt see it comming so i was hit several times continously. luckily i didnt fall, i didnt get a chance to hit him once. i ran backwards fast and threw a high knee...that ended it all. he was out cold but my face was in pain. he hit the white of my eye and its all red from the blood.

[fringe_dweller]

No winners when crap like this happens. Tell your mate to keep his mouth shut about doing an MA next time.

Respectfully,

[J-kid]

Good job, I would have droped this guy when he first opened his mouth, Instead of talking trash i like to say,(o is that so) CRACK say good night.

[Zepp]

I'm sorry to read that dude. Looking at your profile, it seems that you'd be at an age where your schoolmates would have matured past the need for stupid antics like that, but I guess some @$$holes never grow up. :shrug:

Your eye will probably be fine, but you may want to have a doctor take a look at it just in case.

Hopefully there isn't a next time, but if there is, you don't need to hold back for so long. After he pushes you once, you just need to either warn him, calmly, or ask him to "please" leave you alone (just to make sure you cover yourself legally). Once you've done that, if someone goes to push you a second time, you're free to knock them into next week.

Just, whatever you do, don't attack the guy after you've incapacitated him, or you may not be able to justify self-defense. (Not that I think you would, but some people get carried away.)

[Kenpo Wolf]

It sounds to me like YOU caused the situation to escalate. If you would have just ignored the the punk and walked away, instead of verbally reacting, the situation would have died down. When you stood up to him, you damaged his pride and he had to save face by taking you on. What I don't understand how you can be hit so many times. The first thing any real MA will tell you is that a push is usually a prelude to a punch. You should have swung as soon as he pushed you if you were expecting a fight. I hope the guy does'nt figure you just got in a lucky hit, which is my opinion, and come after you again

Originally posted by Judo-kid
Good job, I would have droped this guy when he first opened his mouth, Instead of talking trash i like to say,(o is that so) CRACK say good night.

It's BS like this that gives MA a bad name. Some of these children need to grow up

[Zepp]

Originally posted by Kenpo Wolf
It sounds to me like YOU caused the situation to escalate.

Sounds like you've been out of high school for quite some time now Kenpo Wolf. :D

It's true that muayThaiPerson could have just walked away in the beginning, but he really had no way of knowing that that jerk was going to get physical. Responding the way he did initially is just the social norm for his age group (and sometimes for mine too- and I'm in college.)

[Astra]

I'm sorry for what happened, but what you did was pretty ignorant at the least. You pushed back when it was obvious he was looking for a fight.(Do people push you out of the blue and then leave you alone if you push back?) You failed to be alert when a fight was on it's way and as I understand from what you said, you didn't keep a distance long enough to defend yourself.

I'd also go and check with a doctor about that eye.

[Cthulhu]

My advice is not to listen to what anyone here tells you about what you should or should not have done. None of us were there, so we have nothing but your post to base anything on.

You need to compare your actions with your own beliefs and go from there.

Cthulhu

[Johnathan Napalm]

How does someone run "backwards fast and threw a high knee" ?

[Matt Stone]

It is sad to see that a) you had to find yourself in such a situation, and b) that you were unable to find another way to deal with it.

I remember high school pretty well. I remember the fight I got into with about 10 guys on one side, and only 2 on mine (we won, but that's another story entirely and had more to do with psyops than it did with fighting...). I remember the bullies in school that had to compensate for a lack of intellect by flexing what pathetic muscles they had...

But you should still have avoided the conflict entirely. When the bully approached you, you could have taken his side and behaved in a submissive fashion, manipulating him into thinking he was in a position of power (when in fact you would have been playing him like a puppet). You could have admitted that the comments he made about your family were in fact true (hard to insult someone when they are busy insulting themselves - that takes the power away from the bully immediately, and it isn't fun for him to make rude comments anymore, especially if yours are funnier).

There are hundreds of ways to deal with bullies, and only a very few of them are physical... Martial arts are about learning fighting techniques, but they are also about strategy. Sun Tzu advised that a commander never engage the enemy when and where the enemy wanted to engage in battle, but to rather find a place and time that suited the commander. It would be good reading for you to delve into The Art of War and the Book of Five Rings for lessons in how to deal with aggression without resorting to facing it head on...

Sun Tzu also said that "a great warrior has victory in 1,000 battles. The greatest warrior is he that conquers himself."

I just hope next time you keep a cooler head... Things are different now as compared to when I was in school. We ran the risk of the other guy having a knife. You run the risk of the guy having friends with AKs and Uzis hanging out around the corner.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Judo-kid
Good job, I would have droped this guy when he first opened his mouth, Instead of talking trash i like to say,(o is that so) CRACK say good night.


MuayThaiPerson,

Miyagi Chujun said: “Anyone can suffer a little but it takes a real man to suffer a lot.”

This could be applied to the situation you went through.

It’s probably a good thing you didn’t do as Judo-Kid says he would have done. This is not the way of martial arts and shows a lack of maturity not only in personality but also in training and martial ability. Whacking someone in the mouth for insulting you may sound all macho and tough but is incredibly stupid.
Martial arts were devised to protect you and others from physical assaults not verbal ones.
Verbal assaults will only bother you if you think they are true and if you retaliate with violence you may end up in court/jail if you are over 18.
If you knock the crap out of someone that just said something and it goes to court and if the Judge hears you do martial arts, which he will, then you will be in even bigger trouble.
They will consider you to be the bad guy and not the other way around.

[jfarnsworth]

Once again I'm sorry to hear about your mishap. That's too bad the jerk wouldn't leave you alone. Sometimes that happens when some dirt bag thinks he is high and mighty and really isn't. Kudos for trying to get away from the situation the best you could. Your friend also shouldn't have done that to you as well. He should have left well enough alone. Hopefully your eye will get better soon. Take care.

[muayThaiPerson]

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm
How does someone run "backwards fast and threw a high knee" ?

it was followed by a push kick.

-------------------------------------------

for those who said walk away, its not that easy. in high school, if let people push like that, then everyone is gonnna run over you.

[J-kid]

Kenpo wolf you have no honor,

I dont let people walk on me cause its a doggy dog world.
Once you show weakness every Joe Dick And Harry wants to show there better then you.

First off if a guy was pushing you and causing this kind of problem, He is wanting to fight you, These are fighting words.
If you dont fight him he will bully you. I guess you must not have gone to High school or somthing because you would know i am right.

[J-kid]

Also i wouldnt have fought him right away ether, I proble would have done closer to the same thing, There is always a chance i might. I never get into any fights unless someone wants to fight me for god knows what reason.

Also i only fight people when they lay there hands on me.
But i would exchang words if someone is really making me that mad.

Its about Respect, If i respect people , People should Respect me.

Not to mention martial arts helps alot in sistations like that where Talking fails.

You knocked him out for the right reasons, He deserves what he got if your storey is 100% correct./

[muayThaiPerson]

judo-kid, i totally feel you man. its all about defending your name. are u a junior? or senior?

[Kirk]

Originally posted by Judo-kid
I dont let people walk on me cause its a doggy dog world.



ROFLMAO!!!!!!! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[fringe_dweller]

Originally posted by Kirk
ROFLMAO!!!!!!! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

I feel your pain...

[sweeper]

I disagree jk

The great equaliser in highschool isn't brutality but rather psychology. People don't fear getting beaten up they fear loosing face.. I went through highschool without ever getting in a fight and with out ever being bullied..

[Johnathan Napalm]

Defending your name huh?

Check this out then.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A30714-2003Jan22.html

Way to go.

[Venos-KSW]

Originally posted by Kirk
ROFLMAO!!!!!!! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

:rofl: :rofl: The hilarity never stops :)

[J-kid]

Well i am not gonna kill someone for fighting me or calling me a name. Thats crazy and i frown apon that kind of fighting, No reason to fight to the death.

[J-kid]

jr

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Judo-kid
Well i am not gonna kill someone for fighting me or calling me a name. Thats crazy and i frown apon that kind of fighting, No reason to fight to the death.



That's all well and good but does the other guy feel the same way?


He might have a knife or a gun........then what are you gonna do?

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by muayThaiPerson
judo-kid, i totally feel you man. its all about defending your name.



Paaalease...........:rolleyes:

[RyuShiKan]

First this……….


Originally posted by Judo-kid Good job, I would have droped this guy when he first opened his mouth, Instead of talking trash i like to say,(o is that so) CRACK say good night.

Then this………


Originally posted by Judo-kid
Also i wouldnt have fought him right away ether

Which is it?:confused:

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by sweeper
I disagree jk

The great equaliser in highschool isn't brutality but rather psychology. People don't fear getting beaten up they fear loosing face.. I went through highschool without ever getting in a fight and with out ever being bullied..

I agree.

JK & MTP,

If you are fighting to “defend your name” what happens if he kicks your ass really good?

That’s kind of like adding insult to injury....or injury to insult in this case.

After he kicks you ass he just has more ammunition to taught you with……..

[Bob Hubbard]

Honor is defined differently in ones youth. Itss all about 'saving face' and not 'looking weak'. To them, most of the wisdom one can find in books like '5 Rings or 'Art of War' is just 'woosing out'.

There is never any worry about what happens if they get their own ass kicked....that wont happen. Or if it doesn, well, then they get their 'posse' together and do a little 5 on 1. To protect their 'honor'.

Of course, an intelegent life form would wonder what honor is it in going 5 on 1 with an unarmed person....but then again, an intelegent life form already knows the answer.

But then again, the 'old folks' will speak of things like 'honor' and 'discipline' and 'respect' and 'loyalty'....while the children who "know it all" will ask if this will take all afternoon...as they have the pajamas....

'Honor' isn't saving face in front of a group of people you won't likely ever see again after high school.... honor goes deeper than that. Honor is what a Marine has...or a Samural...
Honor is standing there while a total scum spits on you...and being above reacting. Or, maybe I confuse honor with maturity....they tend to go together.

MTP's fault lies in he reacted to the situation....and his reaction forced an escalation. If he had responded to it, it would probably not gotten physical. There is a difference between reacting and responding. Its worth learning.

I went thru HS with a large # of comments tossed at me....its really hard for someone to top you when after they call your mother a slut, you mention she now has her own frequent shopper card. :rolleyes: The average school bully is simply too stupid to deal with it.

:asian:

[Kenpo Wolf]

Originally posted by Zepp
Sounds like you've been out of high school for quite some time now Kenpo Wolf. :D


This is true, but I dealt with bullies all my life. This comes from being born with a speach impediment, in which a lot of people thought I was retarded or something, which I still have to this day. The only difference between the bullies in my day and the modern bullies in school is that they carry knives and guns now. People need to learn that violence should be used as a last alternative.

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by Judo-kid
Also i wouldnt have fought him right away ether, I proble would have done closer to the same thing, There is always a chance i might. I never get into any fights unless someone wants to fight me for god knows what reason.

Nobody ever gets into fights unless someone wants to fight... It goes without saying. The difference is that a fight takes at least two people, and if at least one of the parties decides they aren't going to allow the onther person to dictate their actions, then no fight will result...


Also i only fight people when they lay there hands on me. But i would exchang words if someone is really making me that mad.

While to a certain degree that is sensible (the not fighting until they lay their hands on you part), exchanging words due to losing your temper shows that the other person is in control and you do not. Personally, I prefer to disallow the other person taking my power away. Words do little. Actions speak much louder than words ever can.


Its about Respect,

You are correct. It is about respect. But which is more important? That some putz respects you because you react to his poking and prodding with insults and untruths? Who really cares if some immature twit who gets his kicks out of trying to instigate violence thinks you are cool or not. Earn the respect of people who are worthy of your respect. Do you respect that clown? If you do, you have some serious thinking to do about what merits respect and what doesn't...


If i respect people , People should Respect me.

Your premise is flawed. If you respect people, goodie for you. They do not, however, have to respect you, no matter what. Even if you do everything right, there is absolutely nothing that says anyone has to respect anyone... The only thing that implies that are the rules of courtesy, something you have said previously that you don't have much stock in... Maybe I misunderstood your comments elsewhere. I hope so...


[]BNot to mention martial arts helps alot in sistations like that where Talking fails.[/B]

Well, that is what martial arts was meant for - defense of self in the face of oppression.


You knocked him out for the right reasons, He deserves what he got if your storey is 100% correct./

I disagree entirely. Other options could have been exercised. Like I posted before, a great warrior has victory in a thousand battles. The greatest warrior is the one who has victory in his battle with himself (i.e. in exercising control over his actions, emotions, etc.).


Kenpo wolf you have no honor,

So, what do you mean by honor? Here are Merriam-Webster's applicable definitions:

1 a : good name or public esteem : REPUTATION
b : a showing of usually merited respect : RECOGNITION <pay honor to our founder>

4 : one whose worth brings respect or fame : CREDIT <an honor to the profession>

7 : CHASTITY, PURITY <fought fiercely for her honor and her life -- Barton Black>

8 a : a keen sense of ethical conduct : INTEGRITY
b : one's word given as a guarantee of performance

9 plural : social courtesies or civilities extended by a host <did the honors at the table>

synonyms HONOR, HOMAGE, REVERENCE, DEFERENCE mean respect and esteem shown to another. HONOR may apply to the recognition of one's right to great respect or to any expression of such recognition <the nomination is an honor>. HOMAGE adds the implication of accompanying praise <paying homage to Shakespeare>. REVERENCE implies profound respect mingled with love, devotion, or awe <great reverence for my father>. DEFERENCE implies a yielding or submitting to another's judgment or preference out of respect or reverence <showed no deference to their elders>.

I think, Judo-kid, your concept of honor is only half understood. You mistake honor for "street cred," or some other poorly understood concept, alongside a person's inalienable "right" to respect, whether earned or not.

If you mean honor in accordance with definition 1, then your good name and reputation will have little to do with falling victim to someone's baiting remarks and insults. In fact, your good name and reputation will be emboldened for walking away...

If you mean honor in accordance with definition 4, then you would become infamous, not famous, for allowing someone to taunt you and manipulate you so easily into fighting with only a few choice insults.

If you mean honor in accordance with definitions 7, 8 and 9, then fighting will do nothing whatsoever to better any of those conditions...


I dont let people walk on me cause its a doggy dog world.

The phrase is not 'doggy dog," but rather "dog eat dog." It refers to a vicious, destructive environment wherein all individuals are out for their own survival. Nice try, though...

As far as "letting people walk on you," you need to learn which battles to fight and which ones to let go... If you fight every fight that presents itself, you only prove without a doubt that you are capable of fighting. If you only fight the fights that are worth fighting, you prove without a doubt you are capable of much more...


Once you show weakness every Joe Dick And Harry wants to show there better then you.

You're right. And once you show you can be danced around like a puppet on strings just by pissing you off, then every Tom, Dick and Harry will want to humiliate you in the same way...


First off if a guy was pushing you and causing this kind of problem, He is wanting to fight you, These are fighting words.

No reason to give in, though.


If you dont fight him he will bully you. I guess you must not have gone to High school or somthing because you would know i am right.

Surprisingly, I managed to get through high school with only one fight, and that one was caused more by my big mouth than anything else. I was lucky to get away from the whole thing without getting the a$$ beating of my life (2 vs. 10 - good odds for me now, bad odds back then... :D ). I got out of fights not by being meek and mild, but by being able to talk circles around the dimwitted neaderthals that thought they could make me dance by flexing and trying to intimidate me... Didn't happen. Not once.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz
Honor is defined differently in ones youth. Itss all about 'saving face' and not 'looking weak'. To them, most of the wisdom one can find in books like '5 Rings or 'Art of War' is just 'woosing out'.

Amen.


There is never any worry about what happens if they get their own ass kicked....that wont happen. Or if it doesn, well, then they get their 'posse' together and do a little 5 on 1. To protect their 'honor'.

Remind me some day to tell you the story about how one kid managed to piss off 10 other kids who decided some 10 on 1 action would be cool... Lucky me, my ***** talking buddy came along with me (and did little to make things better, I might add...)


But then again, the 'old folks' will speak of things like 'honor' and 'discipline' and 'respect' and 'loyalty'....while the children who "know it all" will ask if this will take all afternoon...as they have the pajamas....

Amen a second time...


'Honor' isn't saving face in front of a group of people you won't likely ever see again after high school.... honor goes deeper than that. Honor is what a Marine has...or a Samural...
Honor is standing there while a total scum spits on you...and being above reacting. Or, maybe I confuse honor with maturity....they tend to go together.

Honor is knowing just how many times you could kill the guy before his lifeless body hit the ground... And choosing not to because you are powerful enough to make that decision... Only animals fail to think about the consequences of their actions.


MTP's fault lies in he reacted to the situation....and his reaction forced an escalation. If he had responded to it, it would probably not gotten physical. There is a difference between reacting and responding. Its worth learning.

Amen a third time... Preach on brother!!! :D:D:D


its really hard for someone to top you when after they call your mother a slut, you mention she now has her own frequent shopper card. :rolleyes: The average school bully is simply too stupid to deal with it.

That was my point earlier... Baffle the idiots with BS, and while they are standing there trying to figure out what you were talking about, walk away laughing...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

[Kenpo Wolf]

Originally posted by Judo-kid
Kenpo wolf you have no honor,

First off if a guy was pushing you and causing this kind of problem, He is wanting to fight you, These are fighting words.
If you dont fight him he will bully you. I guess you must not have gone to High school or somthing because you would know i am right.

To reply to your first comment, since when is fighting about honor? You watch way too many movies, dude. You don't know me so don't judge me

And to your second comment, I was not dissing MTP for taking care of the bully when he was forced to. I just took offence when you said;

Good job, I would have droped this guy when he first opened his mouth, Instead of talking trash i like to say,(o is that so) CRACK say good night.


Talk does solve things, most of the time, and violence should be one's last alternative. If everyone felt this way, the world would be a lot nicer to live in. You have stated your opinion and although I respect you for that, you are not right. I will not have a flame war with you and any attempts on your part to have one with me will be ignored. Peace dude:)

[J-kid]

To Yiliquan and kenpo wolf

Your views may be valid, Yet i must post that honor comes in many forms and comes from with in your self.

I believe you must honor your family and true heros.

When someone challengs your honor and your faced with no other opions it becomes your duty as a warrior to defend your honor.

I believe everyone deserves respect to some point.

What people do can sometimes be very disrespectful and some times you must deal with these problems. Some times talking it over can solve the problem, But when Talking fails and they force your hand to action you must teach them respect.

I dont believe in that 10 vs 1 crap and people who do that arnt thinking like warriors but more as a collective Group. It is a cowardly move.

I know this is jumping off topic but the way i look at it there are 2 kinds of people in the Universe. The to groups both have the same goal but diffrent ways, One way is by chaos will force technoligy advances and advance the world. The other beleives that peace and order can bring advance. They both have good points and its hard to say whos right in the end since you can go threw out history and pull aguments out for both sides.


Also like to Note i have the book, Art of war

[rmcrobertson]

I agree with kenpo wolf: there is nothing honorable about fighting, unless there is no other alternative whatsoever. And unless you're p[rotecting something worth protecting.

I'd like to add that kenpo isn't even about fighting. It's about self-defense, maybe even survival--very different propositions. That's why a good martial artist never pulls the trigger until they have to--because once you do, it's pretty likely someone's gonna get hurt.

I'd also like to think that if I ever do have to go there, I'll at least have the decency to be miserable about having hurt somebody else.

Honor? taking care of your kids is honorable. Working hard at a worthwhile job is honorable. Reading a good book is honorable. Writing great music is honorable...Struggling to perfect your character is honorable. Training hard is honorable. Walking away from a fight is usually honorable.

Fighting...nah. Usually, not.

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by Judo-kid
To Yiliquan and kenpo wolf

Your views may be valid, Yet i must post that honor comes in many forms and comes from with in your self.

That's true. There are many forms of honor (10, in fact, from the dictionary). However, loss of self control and violent action are rarely considered honorable...


I believe you must honor your family and true heros.

The use of the word "honor" in this context means "to respect." You are correct that you should pay respect to those deserving of it, people who are therefore (by the definition of the word "honor," as defined in paragraph 4 of the dictionary definintion I posted earlier) honorable.


When someone challengs your honor and your faced with no other opions it becomes your duty as a warrior to defend your honor.

While I am not intending this comment to be a slight on your age, your opinion shows you are young and brash. Something I suspect most of us on this board were once upon a time. But "honor" is a hollow thing to fight and risk dying for. "Honor" does not keep you warm at night, will not feed you when hungry, will provide no solace when you are lonesome or injured. "Honor" is the reward for a shallow person. It is an important concept, but to be the focal point of a person's life shows that their understanding of life priorities lacks depth.

I remember a Sergeant Major I knew once upon a time who told me "You cannot impress me. I have seen too much, from too many people, that was outstanding in its expression. Do not try to impress, simply be impressive." Likewise, do not try to "earn" honor, or to "defend" honor. The honorable man will earn respect by being honorable. Honor cannot be "defended," since real honor cannot be attacked or slighted. As someone else said in this thread, it is "face" that is being defended, and that is very different from "honor."


I believe everyone deserves respect to some point.

And this is the first step upon living an honorable life... Be respectful even to those who do not seem to deserve it. As the sayings go: "The first lesson taught and last lesson understood in the practice of martial arts is the bow." and "Only a truly strong and powerful person can be truly courteous."


What people do can sometimes be very disrespectful and some times you must deal with these problems. Some times talking it over can solve the problem, But when Talking fails and they force your hand to action you must teach them respect.

Respect cannot be "taught." Parents that say they will "teach their child respect" by repeated threats of physical violence do not "teach respect," but rather instill fear. Fear and respect are very differtent things... Respect can only be earned, and if earning the respect of a thug or ruffian is important to you, then engaging in senseless acts of violence will be your lot for quite some time...


I dont believe in that 10 vs 1 crap and people who do that arnt thinking like warriors but more as a collective Group. It is a cowardly move.

I don't disagree. However, my point was that I managed to get out of such a situation not by resorting to fisticuffs, but by using my brain to outwit the mob... Much harder to convince a group than it is to convince an individual.


I know this is jumping off topic but the way i look at it there are 2 kinds of people in the Universe. The to groups both have the same goal but diffrent ways, One way is by chaos will force technoligy advances and advance the world. The other beleives that peace and order can bring advance. They both have good points and its hard to say whos right in the end since you can go threw out history and pull aguments out for both sides.

I would love to see the examples that you cite to support your arguement.


Also like to Note i have the book, Art of war

Try also reading the Tao Te Ching by Lao Tzu, the Analects of Confucius (not an edited, fortune cookie saying version, but one that puts his comments in context - Confucius actually had quite a sarcastic sense of humor, and his discussions are quite entertaining to read), the Book of Five Rings by Miyamoto Musashi (which, interestingly enough for a samurai, speaks little of honor, but only of strategy), Kodo: Ancient Ways by Kensho Furuya, the Way of the Samurai (Budoshoshinshu), and The Way of Bushido by Nitobe. These books will help you understand that that Hollywood and Hong Kong version of "honor" that many people mistake for a martial virtue is far from what "honor" meant to people in the real world...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

[Johnathan Napalm]

Good Lord! It was some silly school yard brawl! Some loud mouth kid mouthing off rubbish! And you people made it into some sort of Honor and Dignity drama? Don't you people have anything more meaningful happening in your lives?

[Bob Hubbard]

It became a discussion that the reason for the fight was to defend honor....

and..in answer to the last part....no. :) Being on MartialTalk is more fun than working at the day job. :D

[lvwhitebir]

From Marc "Animal" MacYoung's web site (emphasis is mine).
www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/streetfighting.html


Many otherwise intelligent young martial artists aspire to learn how to streetfight.

Why would you want to engage in stupid, obnoxious, dangerous and -- most often -- illegal behavior?

While trends in advertising put great emphasis on unbeatable streetfighting training, it is, at best, an unrealistic fantasy and, at worst, a flat-out lie that can and will get you killed. If you do survive, you will find yourself in all kinds of legal and social trouble. In short, streetfighting is NOT what it is cracked up to be.

I earned the name "Animal" in the streets of Los Angeles back in the 70s and 80s. I ran the streets and the night during the most violent period in American history. And I was working high risk professions such as bodyguarding, bouncing and correctional institutions well into the late 90's - even after I had begun writing about streetfighting and survival.

Having spent time in "the Life," I have strong feelings about the wisdom in the saying "Don't go there." There's a lot of pain and stupidity out there in the "Life." A lot of people think there is a lot of power and pride in being a streetfighter, I can tell you from personal experience that the grief and pain far outweighs any benefits.

And to tell you the truth, in order to find yourself in a "streetfight" you have to be somewhat of an *******. You may want to believe otherwise, but there is a simple raw truth....there ain't no such thing as "a good guy" in a streetfight.

Brutal reality vs. macho myth
Start by accepting the fact, that at least 50 percent of the people who engage in fighting lose. The savage truth is that you are not going to be fighting someone who will fold in shock and pain from your super-secret-dim-mak strike. What's more, the odds are you will fight someone with something up his sleeve that will cause you serious damage if he uses it.

Do I have what it takes?
While there is always the concern: Do I have what it takes? That is absolutely the last question where you want to find out that the answer is no.

...

Legal realities
Contrary to what many ultra-studly martial artists tell you, a fight doesn't end when the body hits the floor. That isn't true with self-defense, and it definitely isn't true if you were involved in starting the fight in the first place (and punching someone because they called you a name or simply put their hand on you *is* starting the fight!). You will be facing police, legal repercussions and probably jail.

Being tough = having leprosy
Contrary to what many young and inexperienced people might think -- being "tough" doesn't solve your self-confidence problems, make you feel better about yourself, impress people, make you more popular, prevent you from being picked on or get you laid more often. In fact, it tends to do just the opposite. Instead of lessening your problems, it makes them worse. It makes you more of a social outcast. And on top of that, you also have people trying to kill you.

Realities of streetfighting
It isn't glamorous. It isn't fun. And if you put yourself into situations where you are having to face real streetfighters, it means you are being an ******* yourself. That's right -- to be a streetfighter, you have to become the very thing you hate.

...

What does it mean to be tough?
The idea that the martial arts can make you tough is erroneous. Being tough isn't about fighting. It is about being able to handle whatever life throws at you and keep on going.


WhiteBirch

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm
Good Lord! It was some silly school yard brawl! Some loud mouth kid mouthing off rubbish! And you people made it into some sort of Honor and Dignity drama? Don't you people have anything more meaningful happening in your lives?

Perhaps not... Perhaps we are just trying to educate what seem to be intelligent, though misinformed, young martial artists who may well some day end up being the leaders of the martial community...

Do you have anything better to do than make inflammatory comments (Napalm seems a suitable moniker for you) on this thread and others? I welcome any constructive comments you may have, but coming into a discussion (this one and others) to allege that the rest of us have nothing better to do in our lives seems far less than helpful to anyone...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

[Johnathan Napalm]

What are you, nuts? That is a high school, for crying out loud. Not kumite. We live in a law abiding society. When high schoolers fight, they get disciplined. The incident should be reported and the school officials should deal with it. What is all this thing about honor and name stuff? It is insane! The kid broke school regulations and the matter is to be handled as such. You people are making a drama out of it. Have we forgotten that there are standard procedures to deal with such daily incidents?

[Bob Hubbard]

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm
What are you, nuts? That is a high school, for crying out loud. Not kumite. We live in a law abiding society. When high schoolers fight, they get disciplined. The incident should be reported and the school officials should deal with it. What is all this thing about honor and name stuff? It is insane! The kid broke school regulations and the matter is to be handled as such. You people are making a drama out of it. Have we forgotten that there are standard procedures to deal with such daily incidents?

re nuts - yup. :)
re the rest of your post - You are mostly right...rules were broken, rules should be enforced. Unfortunately, today, at least in the US, the risk of a little confrontation is not a week off and a black eye, its a pinewood box and permanent dirt nap.

So, where rules are broken, discipline. I believe the point we were making wasn't that he hadn't broken rules, but that by reacting differently he might have avoided it becoming physical in the first place.

Personally, I have no problem with fighting, or dying for that matter...but please, let both be over something that really counts, not some braindead ******* whose career prospects are limited to being the 'bottom' in prison because he has delusions of evolving and warped fantasies about what my mother can do with a shopvac or my sister with the football team.

Maybe we take it seriously because we see it as our role of teachers or fellow martial artists to share some advice to help someone out of future issues. That and we'd hate to read in a paper that a simple 'highschool incident' led to someone we know being taken out in a bodybag.

:asian:

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm
What are you, nuts?

Just a piece of friendly advice………when you make statements like that you won’t do anything but make people think you are either a Troll or a “Thread Cop”
(A Thread Cop is someone that jumps into the middle of a thread and posts how certain aspects of threads are ridiculous and makes comments like “Don't you people have anything more meaningful happening in your lives?” etc….In form they appear not to be “Trolls” but in essence they often turn out to be. )



Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm
That is a high school, for crying out loud. Not kumite. We live in a law abiding society. When high schoolers fight, they get disciplined. The incident should be reported and the school officials should deal with it. What is all this thing about honor and name stuff? It is insane! The kid broke school regulations and the matter is to be handled as such. You people are making a drama out of it. Have we forgotten that there are standard procedures to deal with such daily incidents?


I think if you take the time to re-read this thread more carefully you will find it was actually the two High School Kids were the ones that brought the whole “Honor” thing into this topic. The other members were merely schooling them on what they believe to be “Honor”

[Johnathan Napalm]

Heck, I just thought people are making mountain out of mole hill there with a simple case of school yard brawl that goes on daily in schools around the world. Schools have established procedures to deal with this. It is a simple case of disciplinary issue.

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm
Heck, I just thought people are making mountain out of mole hill there with a simple case of school yard brawl that goes on daily in schools around the world. Schools have established procedures to deal with this. It is a simple case of disciplinary issue.


Their procedures don’t seem to be working since this kind of thing continues….and most likely will for a very long time.

Having said that………the reasons for engaging in a fight as stated by the two high school students in this thread is the exact reason why I don’t teach young kids.
They don’t have the maturity to understand when and when not use violence as a solution. (Granted most adults don’t either but they don’t have the excuse of being too young to know better)

[Bob Hubbard]

Who am I to argue with my seniors in the arts, or the founders of the arts? :)



" The only reason men fight is because they are insecure; one man needs to prove that he is better or stronger than another. The man who is secure within himself has no need to prove anything with force, so he can walk away from a fight with dignity and pride. He is the true martial artist-a man so strong inside that he has no need to demostrate power.
The point of achieving proficiency in any martial art is to be able to walk away from a fight rather than to win it. But you will walk with shoulders erect, pride in your bearing, knowing inside what the outcome of the battle would have been had you wished to precipitate it. And the attitude of confidence will be communicated to your antagonist, who will realize that he narrowly escaped defeat. If you have nothing to prove, you have no need to fight."
— Ed Parker

“The ultimate aim of karate lies not in victory or defeat but in the perfection of the character of its participants."
-Gichin Funakoshi, founder of shotokan karate

"The Way of the Warrior has been misunderstood as a means to kill and destroy others. Those who seek competition are making a grave mistake. To smash, injure, or destroy is the worst sin a human being can commit. The real Way of a Warrior is to prevent slaughter - it is the Art of Peace, the power of love."
-Morihei Ueshiba

[Johnathan Napalm]

Since boys will be boys, some one will open their mouths too wide and fists will fly. Schools need to be more vigilant in enforcing discipline.

It is a serious concern if kids are taught martial art without being instilled the discipline regarding when force is justifiable.

I can appreciate the experienced members here are willing to take the time to educate the youngsters. Hopefully they listen and learn.

My sarcastic nature got the better of me in my mouthing off earlier. I just thought why even bother to go on an extensive discussion on honor and so forth, with a simple disciplinary case. May be if parents are less like yours truly , and be more like you all, their kids will be better off.

[Zepp]

Wow this thread's become a pretty hot one. For the sake of brevity, let me just say that I agree with everything Kaith Rustaz has said, and I disagree with everything Judo-Kid has said.

And Kenpo-Wolf, I agree with you too, for the most part. But I also think kids need a chance to "live and learn."

Now the important questions: How's your eye doing muayThaiPerson? Has that bully left you alone now? (Assuming you haven't lost interest in this thread yet.)

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm
May be if parents are less like yours truly , and be more like you all, their kids will be better off.

My parents packed my sorry ass off to Catholic school for 13 years (K-12).
If there was a fight in my school the Jesuits saw to it that is was a fair fight and made the two troublemakers put the gloves on and bash the crap out of each other. I am not sure if they still allow students to do that in this “touchy feely” day in age though. I might also add that violent outbursts (fights and so on) were extremely uncommon too. Which is odd, especially since we had no chicks at our school and the …….er..uh “frustration factor” was rather high.
Great things were learned in those "boxing" sessions.
One important lesson learned was the tough guys weren’t as tough as they thought they were. Especially since it is difficult to talk smack with the headgear on. I think people realized that anyone can win on any given day.

When I was a Freshman in HS I got into with some guy about something stupid, we put the gloves on and banged away at each other until both of us were too tired to go on.
Oddly enough we are best friends to this day……….more like brothers really.
Every time I get a Hagen Das in the round container I am always reminded of him since he is part owner of that container company.
Life is weird.

[Johnathan Napalm]

Haha :) . That is indeed a good story! I do believe that fair fights build character. Getting it all out and then hold no grudges afterward. I really think that kids need to be instilled a sense of honor and fair fight. Sadly, these days, the education system cares more about not hurting self-esteem instead of building character. What happened to strong character brings strong self esteem?

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm
Haha :) . That is indeed a good story! I do believe that fair fights build character. Getting it all out and then hold no grudges afterward. I really think that kids need to be instilled a sense of honor and fair fight. Sadly, these days, the education system cares more about not hurting self-esteem instead of building character. What happened to strong character brings strong self esteem?

What happened to strong character? In a society where personal responsibility doesn't exist, and anyone can blame anyone or anything else for whatever troubles may exist in their lives, the development of character dies.

Anymore, the only thing that develops character is experience, something both MTP and JK are lacking in due to their age (and no fault of their own).

[RyuShiKan]

Where are Honor and Morality in the US????

I look at the Jerry Springer show and have a pretty good idea where they went……….straight down the crapper.

[chufeng]

If there was a fight in my school the Jesuits saw to it that is was a fair fight and made the two troublemakers put the gloves on and bash the crap out of each other.
RyuShiKan,

My school was the same way...and in high-school, rather than boxing, it was wrestling...

But I remember vividly the days where the men in dark robes would declare it time to go to the attic of the church...boxing gloves (the old rust colored musty ones) would be applied and then differences were settled.

My father used the same strategy with me and my older brother...
I always lost those matches...

My younger brothers were treated the same way...but the twisted f***s thought it was fun...so they started boxing.


Thanks for bringing back fond (???) memories...

:asian:
chufeng

[sweeper]

Johnathan Napalm

I don't know what your HS days were like, but "reporting" a fight to the administration realy doesn't do much more than piss everyone off (including some faculty) because you "tateled" on someone in alot of schools.

JK if you have the art of war than do you recal where it was said that taking a state intact is superior to destroying it? or that the acme of skill is not winning 100 out of 100 battles but rather to subdue the enemy without fighting? How about the main strategy in war should be to attack your opponant's strategy?

This is all about offensive strategy, the conservation of energy and maximising profit, look at what your opponant is trying to achive and make that imposable.. By sun tzu's standards, in a sence wars come about when polotics fail, it is not something to your advantage because of the expense and the risk, that is to say it isn't profitable..

Now I'm not saying fighting's bad, I'm just saying don't make it into something it's not. And always be aware of exactly what you are doing, know the risks involved and the posable consequences involved (look at probably and posable outcomes). I mean if you arne't going to gain anything by kicking the **** out of someone than deal with it some othe way because there is always at least a little risk involved.

And just a note, JK when you are speaking of honor you aren't realy just speaking of honor, you are mixing your own ego in with it. That is to say people's view of you probably isn't going to change much at all if you win, loose, or walk away from a fight, the only thing that might change is your view of yourself. Ultimately the whole conflict is one of a psychological nature. You don't truely deffend your self because ingaging in violence puts you at risk (saffest thing even when someone throws a punch is to run like hell(provided you can move fast enough to make them give up chasing you)). And the vast majority of times there is an escalation on both sides (no matter who strikes first) you "exchange" words before hand it isn't just the other guy mouthing off than hitting you it goes back and fourth first. So you choose not to diffuse the thret (if you can call it that) in an early stage and than desided the only way out is a fight. Back to sun tzu, Recal the part where somthing's writen about how a genneral plans? How a battle won is stacked to win and a battle lost is stacked to loose (something like "a victorious army is like a hundred wight stacked against a grain and a deafeated army a grain against a hundred weight)? If you just fight someone you aren't stacking anything and it's up in the air, you pointed out the problems with fighting more than one attacker, that's just an example of how something could go wrong..

From your comments it seems like you are "deffending" your actions, like you feal that others are attacking you here, I don't think that's the direct intent but rather trying to show you that the issue isn't as simple as you seem to propose and there are other ways to deal with it.

[RyuShiKan]

Another great read is a guy called "Chuang Dz".............brilliant stuff.

“dao ke dao, fei chang dao”

“What looks like the way couldn’t be the way because it only appears to be the way”

[chufeng]

For some really profound stuff...look up Reverend Wen Fu Fing...

:asian:
chufeng

[sweeper]

I just braught up sun tzu because judo kid mentioned an intrest.

[J-kid]

You know how i met my best friend? well since you proble dont(hope not) i met him by first fighting him. I kicked his butt when we where Youngesters and we have been best friends since we where 5.

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by Judo-kid
You know how i met my best friend? well since you proble dont(hope not) i met him by first fighting him. I kicked his butt when we where Youngesters and we have been best friends since we where 5.
That's a rare and unusual thing that happens in real life unfortunately.

[swiftpete]

it's a nice idea saying that you should've been the bigger man, walked away etc etc but sometimes its unavoidable and if some chump wants to fight and is determined to do it then you will just get hit if you don't defend yourself.
i am definitely not the sort of person that would start a fight but i've had people start on me before for no reason, i once got headbutted by someone for no reason at all that stopped me as i was walking down a corridor. in that situation how do u walk away?? i had to fight or just stand and accept being hit.
So while i agree that you should try your best to talk your way out of it and all that if possible, sometimes its just not possible as there are a hell of a lot of complete chumps out there desperate to prove something.


The friend who shouted that you were a martial artist is an idiot though, thats just asking for trouble. Ah well at least you knocked him out not the other way round. He'll probably think twice about starting on you again. And hopefully if word gets round then the other idiots at your place might think twice too about starting on you.
Good luck. And at least you can have some faith in your knee in future!

[47MartialMan]

I can post that he shouldnt have spoke or cursed back and avoided the fight. But, hey, I didnt do that either when I was in school. My senior year in high school, lunch time was spent ducking in the library so that I wont get into trouble and lose study time needed for grades to pass/graduate.


With age and maturity, it is simple to tell one of much junior, on what they should have or should not have done. But looking back, as a youngster, many of us (or I) perhaps did the same. Per peer pressure and back talk.

[jjmcc]

Kenpo wolf you have no honor,

I dont let people walk on me cause its a doggy dog world.
Once you show weakness every Joe Dick And Harry wants to show there better then you.

First off if a guy was pushing you and causing this kind of problem, He is wanting to fight you, These are fighting words.
If you dont fight him he will bully you. I guess you must not have gone to High school or somthing because you would know i am right.
i agree with you j kid i dont want to get into fights but if its gonna happen its gonna happen and im sure as hell im not gonna be the one on the floor so if i feel as if an attack is immenent i will attack first BANG fingers straight in the eye why the hell should you care about there feelings as if they would have cared about mine and if they are hurt or bleeding SO WHAT TOUGH should have thought about that before you could try and start with me

So tell me how this makes you an idiot. Its a dog eat dog world if you give someone a yard they take a mile so i dont even give them an inch. If you ask me the only idiotic comments that strike me are the ones that say HIDE RUN AWAY DONT FIGHT damn it i was fighting way before i ever studyed MA and if anyone pushes me they better be ready to face the conciquences.

[47MartialMan]

i agree with you j kid i dont want to get into fights but if its gonna happen its gonna happen and im sure as hell im not gonna be the one on the floor so if i feel as if an attack is immenent i will attack first BANG fingers straight in the eye why the hell should you care about there feelings as if they would have cared about mine and if they are hurt or bleeding SO WHAT TOUGH should have thought about that before you could try and start with me

So tell me how this makes you an idiot. Its a dog eat dog world if you give someone a yard they take a mile so i dont even give them an inch. If you ask me the only idiotic comments that strike me are the ones that say HIDE RUN AWAY DONT FIGHT damn it i was fighting way before i ever studyed MA and if anyone pushes me they better be ready to face the conciquences.Right, as if one is thinking about finger strikes as the fight tension unfilds.
But one must also be ready to fsce consequences as well.

[Tony]

It is sad to see that a) you had to find yourself in such a situation, and b) that you were unable to find another way to deal with it.

I remember high school pretty well. I remember the fight I got into with about 10 guys on one side, and only 2 on mine (we won, but that's another story entirely and had more to do with psyops than it did with fighting...). I remember the bullies in school that had to compensate for a lack of intellect by flexing what pathetic muscles they had...

But you should still have avoided the conflict entirely. When the bully approached you, you could have taken his side and behaved in a submissive fashion, manipulating him into thinking he was in a position of power (when in fact you would have been playing him like a puppet). You could have admitted that the comments he made about your family were in fact true (hard to insult someone when they are busy insulting themselves - that takes the power away from the bully immediately, and it isn't fun for him to make rude comments anymore, especially if yours are funnier).

There are hundreds of ways to deal with bullies, and only a very few of them are physical... Martial arts are about learning fighting techniques, but they are also about strategy. Sun Tzu advised that a commander never engage the enemy when and where the enemy wanted to engage in battle, but to rather find a place and time that suited the commander. It would be good reading for you to delve into The Art of War and the Book of Five Rings for lessons in how to deal with aggression without resorting to facing it head on...

Sun Tzu also said that "a great warrior has victory in 1,000 battles. The greatest warrior is he that conquers himself."

I just hope next time you keep a cooler head... Things are different now as compared to when I was in school. We ran the risk of the other guy having a knife. You run the risk of the guy having friends with AKs and Uzis hanging out around the corner.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


Interesting comments! I know he should have avoided this but there are times when you do have to stand up for yourself otherwise people take advantage.

[jjmcc]

Right, as if one is thinking about finger strikes as the fight tension unfilds.
But one must also be ready to fsce consequences as well.
im always thinking of finger strikes the eye is a very tender spot and when attacked is extremly effective either partially blinding opponent or enough to make the attacker think twice. Once the attackers eyesight starts to come back hes on the floor and your OFF.

I am not doubting your wisdom but i cant understand how you or anyone with so much knowledge or training can tell me that a strike to the eyes is not an effective technique.

Im a realist it would be great if a guy come up to you in the street to kick your ass and all you had to say is i dont want trouble and they left you alone ye but thats never going to happen more these days the worlds a dangerous place i train hard and i know im good at what i do and i train and now teach people to defend themself at any cost worry about the conciquences later and my outlook will never change.

[Tony]

man, in school, this guy started problems with me just cuz he thought i wouldnt do anything. im not a big guy, but he is...so he started to talk about my family and making fun of me. i dont even know this guy. well i told him he'd better shut up. i was quite mad at the moment and didnt know wat to do. so i started to curse. i told him to shut the f*** up. he was like "what?you think your hard now?". i told him i didnt do anything and asked wat his problem was. then my big mouth friend said i was a MAist. thats when i knew there was going to be a fight. he started to mock me. after school, i was walking to the corner and i saw him. so i walked to the opposite street. the f***er came over and started pushing me and asked why "I was talking ***** about him in class". when i pushed back, he swung. i didnt see it comming so i was hit several times continously. luckily i didnt fall, i didnt get a chance to hit him once. i ran backwards fast and threw a high knee...that ended it all. he was out cold but my face was in pain. he hit the white of my eye and its all red from the blood.


Hi Muay Thai

So what did you learn from this incident? Good for you for defending yourself but fighting should always be a last resort.
You say he continuously hit you and you didn't get a chance to hit him once, what was it do you think that gave him the advantage, his size, maybe more fight experience? Maybe you should step up your training so that you get hit less often, working on speed and evasive techniques, more blocking drilss, awareness drills ansd such. But it shows your training has served you well as you must have taken some really hard shots but they did not shake you up too much to stop you from fighting back.

[47MartialMan]

im always thinking of finger strikes the eye is a very tender spot and when attacked is extremly effective either partially blinding opponent or enough to make the attacker think twice. Once the attackers eyesight starts to come back hes on the floor and your OFF. Hey, your are correct. This is the desired outcome.



I am not doubting your wisdom but i cant understand how you or anyone with so much knowledge or training can tell me that a strike to the eyes is not an effective technique. I am not saying that it is not an effecive technique. I am saying that when the "cards go down" and the "fists are flying", or any other scenario, one may not get a chance nor even "think" about finger strikes to the eye. But, by ALL means, continue to practice them :)


Im a realist it would be great if a guy come up to you in the street to kick your ass and all you had to say is i dont want trouble and they left you alone ye but thats never going to happen more these days the worlds a dangerous place i train hard and i know im good at what i do and i train and now teach people to defend themself at any cost worry about the conciquences later and my outlook will never change. Yes, I can almost agree with much of this. But part of martial art excellance, is not to use excessive force and do anything that will have you suffer consequences.

However, as bold as one of my instructors had his personal quote;
"When other means fail - Do Unto To Others BEFORE They Do Unto You"

[jjmcc]

Hey, your are correct. This is the desired outcome.


I am not saying that it is not an effecive technique. I am saying that when the "cards go down" and the "fists are flying", or any other scenario, one may not get a chance nor even "think" about finger strikes to the eye. But, by ALL means, continue to practice them :)

Yes, I can almost agree with much of this. But part of martial art excellance, is not to use excessive force and do anything that will have you suffer consequences.

However, as bold as one of my instructors had his personal quote;
"When other means fail - Do Unto To Others BEFORE They Do Unto
You"
Thank you for your comments im glad we see eye to eye on some of the comments... :-partyon:

[47MartialMan]

Thank you for your comments im glad we see eye to eye on some of the comments... :-partyon:

:) "eye-to-eye":)...more/less "finger-to-eye":)