what do you think about tricking?

[onibaku]

I would like to know how to train for this. And is it necessary for a martial artist to study or learn this? please say your comments and opinions openly

saraba

[Big Don]

I am unfamiliar with the term. What exactly is tricking?

[Guardian]

I'm not quite sure what you are referring to, are you talking about the art of lying (tricking) your way of fighting or getting someone to do what you want?

[Logan]

Tricking is acrobatic moves derived from martial art and gymnastic techniques. It is useful in providing co-ordination and plyometric ability but it is by no means a requirement for doing martial arts. It is not a martial art but more display of physical ability, such as gymnastics.

[Logan]

Oh and if you google 'tricking' you will find numerous websites with tutorials and advice.

[JadecloudAlchemist]

Sun tzu says "The art of war is based on deception"(trickery)
I would focus more on this type of practice than gymnastics.

[Brian R. VanCise]

Absolutely unimportant for true personal protection skills! http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon6.gif

[punisher73]

If by "tricking" you are refering to Sun Tzu type strategy of making them think you are going to attack high level and then go low level then I would say "yes" and learn that.

But, if you are refering to what Logan states and using it in reference to gymnastics. Then "no", I don't think it is something you have to do.

It might be fun to incorporate those types of things to know how to use your body in different ways and what you are capable of. But, as has been stated, it is not necessary for personal protection.

Closest to gymnastics you would need is breakfalls and how to roll properly.

[The Boar Man]

Absolutely unimportant for true personal protection skills! http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon6.gif

What he said.

However if used in the sense of learning tricks in the combative sense, i.e. faking, ways to manipulate a person or body or body part, etc. etc. than essential for true personal protection skills.

[tahuti]

Tricking is more entertainment. Here some links:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tricking_moves
http://www.club540.com/home.php
http://www.trickstutorials.com/
http://www.tricksession.com/tutorials.php

[redfang]

For me tricking is about putting on some pretty clothes, comfortable shoes, and a short wait on a few, particular corners.:wink1:

[Blindside]

I would like to know how to train for this. And is it necessary for a martial artist to study or learn this? please say your comments and opinions openly

saraba

Its incredibly athletic and the people who do it have obviously well developed senses of kinesthesia and proprioception. That said it is completely unnecessary for a martial art to study this. "Martial" arts are based on war or combat skills and the need to jump, flip, or cartwheel using in those situations is incredibly unlikely. The only time I have heard of anything like "tricking" as a method of training combat oriented fighters is Japanese fighter pilots in WWII, where it was used to develop the attributes necessary for that eras dogfighting. Most of us have limited time to train, so the time required to develop good tricking skills takes away from our time to train combat or self-defense skills. If your primary goal isn't self-defense or combat, then you can do anything you want, but lets not confuse gymnastics with the development of real martial skills.

Lamont

[jks9199]

For me tricking is about putting on some pretty clothes, comfortable shoes, and a short wait on a few, particular corners.:wink1:
That's what I was kinda thinking, too!

(Of course, I don't know what sort of "training" would be needed to do that sort of tricking. Though self-defense might be useful for people who do that sort of thing...)

[MJS]

"Tricking" your opponent into thinking you're about to do one thing and then change to another target area, sure, nothing wrong with that.

"Tricking" as in some sort of gymnastics move or something that you'd see in a movie where people are flying thru the air, doing cartwheels, etc., then no, that is something that I personally am not interested in.

If the goal is to train for SD, which I'd imagine that is or should be the main goal for anyone training in the arts, then spending time on practical and effective techniques is more important than the fancy stuff. :)

Mike

[Kosho Gakkusei]

Tricking is more entertainment. Here some links:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tricking_moves
http://www.club540.com/home.php
http://www.trickstutorials.com/
http://www.tricksession.com/tutorials.php

Read thru most of the links. The athleticism is impressive but I will say I'd find it easier to accept the tutorials as either how to do moves like the Power Rangers or how to get your butt kicked if your dumb enough to try this in a real fight. This stuff has nothing to do with real fighting and therefore nothing to do with self defense or martial arts.

_Don Flatt

[stone_dragone]

Neat to watch...

Admirable to be able to do...

Stupid to try in any self defense situation...

[Kreth]

Stupid to try in any self defense situation...
Personally, I'll stick with uke kudaki... :p

[Jade Tigress]

Sounds like modern Wushu.

[Blindside]

Sounds like modern Wushu.

Modern wushu done to a techno beat with lots of screaming.

Lamont

[newGuy12]

Modern wushu done to a techno beat with lots of screaming.

Lamont

In that case, I would prefer to watch modern wushu. I'm too old to try all of those flipping around motions.

[Jade Tigress]

Modern wushu done to a techno beat with lots of screaming.

Lamont

Holy ****. I didn't watch any of the tutorials.

[Blindside]

Holy ****. I didn't watch any of the tutorials.

I didn't either, I've just been to too many tournaments. I was on a panel a couple of years ago, we had the center ring, elevated so everyone could see. Four of the five judges were pretty traditional kenpoists, we got every XMA, creative, and trick division they could throw our way. I swear you could have heard the judges teeth grinding. It was pretty funny, in a sick, endure the pain kind of way.

[Jade Tigress]

I didn't either, I've just been to too many tournaments. I was on a panel a couple of years ago, we had the center ring, elevated so everyone could see. Four of the five judges were pretty traditional kenpoists, we got every XMA, creative, and trick division they could throw our way. I swear you could have heard the judges teeth grinding. It was pretty funny, in a sick, endure the pain kind of way.


OMG. Unbelievable. I've never heard of this sort of thing.

[tellner]

It's no better or worse than modern Wu Shu, the elaborate high and aerial kicks of TKD or the showier versions of Capoeira. It's not meant for fighting. It's meant to display the athletic prowess of the performer.

Part of me sneers. But then I take a more zoological view.

Part of it is sexual display. Grace, strength and speed are common indicators of good health and possibly of good breeding stock. Young animals want to find mates. So they do things that impress other young animals. I'm positive that the first person to try and ride a horse was a sixteen year old boy showing off for a sixteen year old girl. Orangutans "tree surf", but only young male orangutans in the presence of young female orangutans. The gentleman bullfrog with the biggest throat sac and deepest croak gets more lady bullfrogs. Sometimes these things are done to impress members of the same gender. It comes down to status which translates into breeding rights and more access to resources.

The other part is "You don't want to screw with me" display.

When lions get a little too close wildebeest or Thomson's gazelles cavort around and jump up and down. It's called "stotting", and it shows the lions that the gazelle in question is fast, strong and alert. "You're not going to catch me, and if you do it will cost you more calories than you'll get off of me." This is the basis of an awful lot of practical self defense among humans.

A lot of animals have threat and dominance displays that show off fighting ability without the risk of getting hurt. It can be growling, making yourself look big, displaying strikingly colored hindquarters, strutting around or showing off how strong and dangerous you are with the big teeth and all. Break dancing started out that way. So do the old custom of The Brag, ostentatious display of weapons, bodybuilding, gang sign and many other things.

The trick with all of these is that you're selling sizzle. You'd better have sausage if you're called on it. Or in the somewhat simpler language of my beloved Guru Brandt "Never let your mouth write a check that your ass can't cash."

[MBuzzy]

I hope it isn't required.....I trip over my own feet. The only time that I AM coordinated is in martial arts.

[Big Don]

I hope it isn't required.....I trip over my own feet. The only time that I AM coordinated is in martial arts.
Oh, God, I'm right there with you.

[tahuti]

Tellner you got it.
Tricking is combination of martial arts, breakdancing, gymnastics and other "flashy" moves practiced by teenagers or young adults and it is non-contact, except when you use others as a prop.
Would add that tricking in combination with parkour or freestyle running is very interesting to watch.
For those who are interested in parkour watch movie District 13 and please ignore plot :)

[tellner]

Parkour and Free Running are just freaking awesome! I never had the gymnastic skills, I have a clinical phobia of heights and it started well after I hit the 30. But I admire the hell out of people who can pull it off.

If martial arts is about anything it has to be about fighting. But that doesn't have to be all that it's about. It's a sign of how body-poor we are that it's the only way most of us here ever really use our bodies and that the way we fight, the way we stay healthy and the way we dance are usually separate from each other.

[meth18au]

Parkour is awesome. I've been watching a lot of the video's over the net lately of good 'tricking'. Search for 'The Dvinsk Clan'- crazy Russian free runners.

Although it's practicality in self-defense is questionable- it may come in handy when fleeing attackers?? You know, run up a wall, land on top, jump from wall to roof, etc etc. All of a sudden you can't be reached by any normal human being...LOL.

:)

[Guardian]

Tricking is acrobatic moves derived from martial art and gymnastic techniques. It is useful in providing co-ordination and plyometric ability but it is by no means a requirement for doing martial arts. It is not a martial art but more display of physical ability, such as gymnastics.

Thanks for the information, I couldn't fathom what it meant. I watch a couple of the links from google, no thanks, heck to old to know what it was, definately to old to do it LOL.

[Kwan Jang]

I think "tricking" has some value as a supplement to a young, athletic students training. It gives them an outlet for improvement of both their agility and coordination. It also does help develop explosive power and the qualities that this develops them into better fighters, even if the techniques themselves do not. Many of my best teen students are really into it and love the challenge it provides.

We offer a supplemental class on Saturday mornings that we call our flip kicks class for the advanced students who want to work on this. It is not part of our curriculum and they must get their regular training in, but I see no problem with "letting them have deert once a week if they have had the good nutrition and cleaned their plate on their regular meals throughout the week".

As far as XPT and musical forms are concerned, I consider open tournaments as sport competitions and those divisions are part of that athletic competition. It's been my experience that most of the "traditionalists" who moan and groan about these divisions don't understand the practical bunkai/applications of the traditional katas anyway. As a MMA and full contact guy myself, I see point sparring as not being a whole lot better to developing realistic fighting or self defense skills. In fairness, I do see some value to point sparring as a drill to teach students at certain levels how to hit and clear w/o being hit. However, how the "sparring" is done in many open tournaments is SO far removed from reality, I feel that it promotes a lot worst habits than tricking.

[Xue Sheng]

If by tricking you mean this


Tricking is more entertainment. Here some links:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tricking_moves
http://www.club540.com/home.php
http://www.trickstutorials.com/
http://www.tricksession.com/tutorials.php

Then to answer this question


is it necessary for a martial artist to study or learn this?

No

If by tricking you mean this


For me tricking is about putting on some pretty clothes, comfortable shoes, and a short wait on a few, particular corners.:wink1:

Then to answer this question


is it necessary for a martial artist to study or learn this?

Hell No

[Em MacIntosh]

Few people have the all around strength of tumbling artists. Being able to do real push ups (ex. handstand-jackie chan, rumble in the bronx) would get you better results. A back hand spring is a quick evasive manauver if you're adept enough. I'd concentrate on knife defense, the straight blast and the psychology of deception etc. instead. Tumbling is a top shelf workout though!

[Kosho Gakkusei]

This past summer I took my two sons to a park and a local Karate School was setting up to do a demonstration. I approached one of the instructors to find out what kind of school they were. Come to find out that they were an Ishiin Ryu School but also taught Yoshitsune Jujutsu & Kendo. Sounded pretty interesting to me so I took a pamphlet.

When they go to do the demo it was mostly XMA (or I guess you'd call tricking) - alot of jumping, spinning, & flipping - even the sword & jujutsu work was done in this manner. Very flashy & a good show but not the best representation of the martial arts in my opinion. I took a closer look at the pamphlet and come to see that they offer classes in Karate, Jujutsu, Kendo, XMA, MMA, & TAEBO. Just as I was wondering how they had time to teach all this my 5 yr old exclaimed that he wanted to learn how to do what they were doing. I told him if he wanted to learn how to fight I'd send him to a school that teaches martial arts but if he wants to learn how to jump, spin, & flip I'd send him to a gymnastics school.

Given the choice he'd rather learn martial arts and so would I.

_Don Flatt

[punisher73]

Just as a way off side note. When I was a youngin, I took gymnastics but was always interested in the martial arts. Some of us neighborhood kids were roughhousing with a college powerlifter and he started getting to rough and actually throwing and slamming some kids. He grabbed onto me and threw me up in the air and I actually landed and did a cartwheel roundoff and was on my feet. Everyone kind of stopped and was like, that is sooo cool.

Have I ever felt the need to continue to practice that move, or show it to others...NOPE. Could I go the rest of my life and never do another cartwheel again...YEP. Just some food for thought about how the body/mind can and will use all physical training to it's advantage when the situation arises.

[Langenschwert]

And is it necessary for a martial artist to study or learn this?

Hell no. If you want to learn a gymnasticsMA hybrid, go right ahead, nothing wrong with that if that's what floats your boat.

Does it have anything to do with martial applications? Nope. Combat effective MA are by nature simple and direct. In learning XMA type stuff, you are effectively reducing the time you spend training muscle memory for the practical stuff. To get even the simplest of techniques to the point of instinct takes a lot of time. If that's not important to you, then by all means, go for it.

If it is, then train your ass-kicking and leave show techniques to others. :)

Best regards,

-Mark