Survey - Modern Arnis Blasphemy?

[Dan Anderson]

Dear Martial Artists, 21 Jan 2003

I am putting my butt out here on the line and am doing a survey as to what has been referred to (by another) as misleading, misinforming and disrespectful to my late teacher, Remy Presas and this is regarding what I am doing with Modern Arnis. I thought I'd get some opinions and feedback from others who had trained under him as well as experienced martial artists. The two main points of contention are that I have named my own style of Modern Arnis as Modern Arnis 80 and that I title myself Professor as well as founder of Modern Arnis 80. Here are some facts to set begin with:

Point of contention #1 - the name Modern Arnis 80.

Back in 1998 or so I asked Prof. Presas permission to form my own sub-system of Modern Arnis, subservient to his. When I went up to visit him at a joint seminar of his and Wally Jay's, I got his verbal permission to do so. When Prof. Presas died there was the big deal made about successorship, who were the top students and so forth. I had predicted this would happen back in 1994 in a letter to Bram Frank. To sidestep the whole mess I came public with my style of what I had learned from the professor and named it Modern Arnis 80. Here is why.

First of all, the Filipino martial art I learned was Modern Arnis, not Balintawak or Serrada escrima, etc. The 80 has two meanings. 1) 1980 is the year I began training. 2) If you turn the 8 on its side you have the symbol for infinity. I remember how Prof. Presas would show us endless variations based off of one move. That gives the idea of an infinite number of actions one can do. I also remember how direct he could be if you put the heat on him? The 80 means "the possibility of anything (8) to the simplicity of the moment (0)." The 8------0 is sort of a philosophical thing.

For me, to say I am teaching Modern Arnis, Remy Presas style, is incorrect as he taught in a seminar fashion and not a structured one. This is how he taught in the United States. How he taught in the Philippines may be another matter. As to seniority, Remy Presas was my instructor and he didn't tell me that any of current Modern Arnis groups or individuals were my seniors. As I trained directly under Prof. Presas, he was my senior and shortly before he died all he said to me was, "Danny, get involved." and that was it.

Point of contention #2, the use of the titles Professor for myself Filipino martial arts wise and Founder, Modern Arnis 80.

A founder, by dictionary definition, is one who establishes something. George Washington, Benjamin Franklin and others were the founders of our country. That is the usage of the term as I apply it to what I do. I have not claimed to have found a lost 1980's art or 1980's way of teaching something as has been stated by another. I founded the style that I teach, the steps of progression and that is the usage of founder that I go by.

The reason for the Professor title is simple. Many instructors call themselves something. A dictionary definition of professor is "one that teaches or professes special knowledge of an art, sport, or occupation requiring skill." I have been teaching martial arts for 34 years. I have been teaching Modern Arnis in some form or another for 22 years. I am one of the Professor's highest ranked students in the U.S. (6th Degree Black Belt and Senior Master). I was awarded the Professor title by ATAMA in Karate but I feel I have earned it as an overall instructor as well. I do not put myself on the same status with Remy Presas and I do not claim that position by using the term Professor. There are a number of titles I could adopt. Like I said, many instructors call themselves something. I don't use Guro, Punong Guro, Master, Senior Master, Grand Master as none of them fit. To me in the above definition, Professor fits.

As far as it being disrespectful to my teacher, it would be far more disrespectful for me to name what I do "Dan Anderson Arnis," "American Arnis," "Super Dan's Stickfighting" or something like that. I use the term Modern Arnis because that is my base Filipino art. I use the term to show where I got my skill from - Remy A. Presas.

As a senior practitioner in the martial arts, your input is valuable to me. I feel I am helping take my instructor's art into the new millennium and am doing it somewhat the same way he did, by learning a base art (for me Modern Arnis) and then expanding my own knowledge, as he did with his family art and Balintawak escrima. Is this misleading, misinforming and disrespectful to my late teacher or is it just one person's opinion? Your reply and opinions, whether they agree with my own or not, are very welcome.

Thank you in advance,

Dan Anderson

[Zoran]

Although I am not part of the Modern Arnis community, I see nothing wrong with taking what you learned and moving forward with your own personal style or interpretation of the art. What you call the style or off-shoot that you teach is really your personal business. From reading your post, I feel you have named your style in a respectfull manner. You seem to give credit to where credit is due, re:Modern Arnis, and only add an extra term at the end.

I've seen this happen in American Kenpo and always watched from the side lines wondering if the world is crazy. :shrug: It's all polotics. :mad:

So my message here is; If you follow your own path, at least you are true to yourself. If the majority wish to be followers of someone elses path, and that is the path you truly wish to follow, then do so and leave those others that go their own way alone.
:asian:

[Rocky]

Look in a nut shell Dan you are a big boy, who has worked hard for want you got, you don't seem to be disrespecting Remy in any way. You give him credit where it is do, thats better than some of his guys!!

I see no reason for you not to strike out on your own. You were doing this stuff 10 years before some of the other high ranking people. There is always going to be those who run there mouths about this or that, but isn't there always. I was doing seminars in Europe at 17 years old, before many of his wanna be henchman even new what Modern Arnis was. I to have gotten slack because I choose not to be under anyone, well show me someone that can teach me more about modern arnis or for that matter who had as much real training time with Remy than I and I might think about it. That being said I still support and recognize you and your oranization, and Tim and his, even though Tim seems to not want to give me much credit, oh well. I don't support to many others because I just don't beleave in them or there abilities sorry.

I can tell you this eventually this smoke will clear and people will know. Remy told me a long time ago that eventually people would come looking for me to train, I never beleaved him untill a few years ago when I started getting phone calls and email from all over.

This is land of opportunity, you do what is right to for you and yours and screw everyone else!!

Ok that it for me.

How do you like being lectured by someone young enough to be your son.:rofl:


Rocky

[Guro Harold]

From my observation it seems that some person(s) on this and other forums may have personal issues with you. Therefore I do not know how explaining and clarification will change their minds.

You know to what the Professor asked you to do and I wish you all the best as you answer the charge. There is a point where you just got to do what you have to do.

[Bob Hubbard]

Dan, I don't see much different in what you've done compared to what others have. I think some individuals feel their 'positions' are threatened by others doing similar things.

I've said it before to several folks...If your motives are pure, then more power to you. If not, shame on you. Only you know for certain what is in your heart.

Do what you feel is right, and deal with the rewards and consequences as they come.

I've also said it before..it would be nice if everyone could put egos, political posturing and 'stick' measuring aside and just train and share together.


Just the opinion of a lowbelt MA dabler.:asian:

[Lady Presas]

Originally posted by Dan Anderson
Dear Martial Artists, 21 Jan 2003
As to seniority, Remy Presas was my instructor and he didn't tell me that any of current Modern Arnis groups or individuals were my seniors. As I trained directly under Prof. Presas, he was my senior and shortly before he died all he said to me was, "Danny, get involved." and that was it.


Dan-

You say that Remy didn't tell you that anyone was your senior. How long ago was it? You say that you have been active in Modern Arnis. If you were active, why did Remy tell you to "get involved"?

Just a couple of questions that come to mind.

[ace]

:wavey:

[lhommedieu]

Professor Anderson:

My take, for what it's worth:

No one thinks twice about a person who is an expert in their field, has published articles and/or books on their field, and teaches on a regular basis, calling themselves "professor" on a college campus. There are hundreds, if not thousands, of professors teaching across the United States.

Analogously, there are "professor" grades in martial arts as well, wherein the use of the word as a title merely connotes that you have achieved a certain level of expertise. I think you have earned the right to call yourself "professor," no matter what anyone else thinks. My God - it's just a word - and nobody owns it.

You may have a copy of a previous post in which I referred to the use of "Modern Arnis 80" as similar to what several Kajukenbo black belts have done with their arts. You are welcome to refer to it, if you wish. BTW, senior grades in Kajukenbo are also referred to as "professor." My teacher's teacher is Professor Vince Black, for example.

The "modern" of "Modern Arnis" was supposed to refer to the fact that the art was both organized and evolving at the same time - isn't that precisely what you're doing?

Best,

Stephen Lamade
Instructor
San Miguel Eskrima Association

p.s. Really liked your ebook on disarms.

[Dan Anderson]

Originally posted by Lady Presas
Dan-

You say that Remy didn't tell you that anyone was your senior. 1. How long ago was it? 2. You say that you have been active in Modern Arnis. If you were active, why did Remy tell you to "get involved"?

Just a couple of questions that come to mind.

Dear Lady,

1. Roughly one month before he died.
2. As I had recently married into a family with 5 kids, I had cut back my traveling. RP was under the mistaken idea that I had retired.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

[Rocky]

To me I view modern arnis as a generic label simular to Karate, Kung Fu, Arnis Eskrima, since Modern means hear and now, it also insinuates New!! and if an art is to stay New it must change, and since most arts do change over the years many can be called modern. Every one of Remys better students has there own imput to Modern Arnis, Professor Anderson'a may have a little more, Karate edge to it. Tim Hartmans, may have some of Dr. Giy's influence, Kelly Wordens seems to have a heavy knife influence. Bottom line is, is what they teach workable? If it is then who care's if it is not time will consume them quick enough. My Modern Arnis looks more like the Grouped Balintawak, arts, its heavy with Moncol's and Temor Maraga's Balintawak, because that is how Remy tought me. My espada y daga, is almost pure crossada De mano, as is much of my empty hand when I teach modern arnis. Professor Presas and I had a hard time getting a long in his last few years. But I still honor him, by teaching my blend of his art.

One last question those of you who don't think Dan should do his thing then tell us how it should be done, since Remy tought many of his student diferantly, I could hardly ever get him to do Modern Arnis, he always wanted to do Balintawak with me and Master Hal Edwards, he could never quite figure out Anciongs, teaching structure, because when he was with Anciong, the teaching was a bit different. With so many people tought so many different ways, how should the art be carried on , ney how else could the art be carried on!!

Rocky

[Emptyglass]

Mr. Anderson:

Although we have not met yet, you are well acquainted with my instructor Dr. Jerome Barber. In my opinion, as long as you are honest about your training and instructors, give respect to said instructors in your words and actions and work as hard as you can not to disrespect the art you were entrusted with by your instructors, I see no reason why you should not strike out on your own with your own way of presenting the FMAs.

While I personally wouldn't do the things you have done with your instructional title or the name of your system of FMA, it certainly does not bother me in the slightest that you have done so. I'm smart enough to know that you are not R.A. Presas (and are not claiming to be) and that your efforts within the FMA are as far as I can tell not a slight but an effort to honor/expand Modern Arnis as well as express your own personal movement/style/art/teaching curriculum. Until you do or say something to change my mind about this I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt about your intentions (not that you need my approval in any case).

At least what you're doing is honest and forthright and you're not claiming to be "The Grandmaster of Modern Arnis". To me that would be reprehensible.

Personally I no longer choose to state the rank that I honestly obtained in the arts I've studied unless someone asks me about the subject as I have found that in any martial art (or other discipline for that matter) you either know what you are doing or you don't. I just say I have some training and if more information is required I'll give it. Lots of folks have never received printed rank and are skilled/proficient/masterful fighters with lots to offer. Others have purchased or have received a veritable ream of paper certificates/diplomas/training medals etc... and are an affront to the honest effort/sweat/training/work of dedicated practicioners. Also, definitions of proficiency vary from person to person. To some it's enough to have the ability to perform a set list of techniques on demand. To others, it's the ability to use what you've been taught to preserve your own life in the face of a dangerous threat.

There are people that know more than me and people that know as much or less. Both groups have something to offer me in terms of teaching me something I don't know, allowing me to see where I can improve my technique or by allowing me the opportunity to show or teach what I know of my art (and by extension the art of my instructors) to them. I like the idea that when I'm working with someone, there are no preconceptions about what you're doing by saying "I'm rank such and such in system such and such). If I know I'm going to be the instructor I establish that relationship in the beginning and expect to work as such. Otherwise I just work with the person (whether they are more advanced than me or less) and take away what I can use/manage to pick up. In both sets of circumstances I'm still the student.

In any case, I would think experienced practitioners will know how well and how hard you've been trained, just by observing your habits and working with you for a while.

Also, I was taught that eventually, once you master the techniques/principles/concepts of what your teachers are showing you, you will eventually have to incorporate your own movement/body mechanics/preferences/capabilities into the Filipino Martial Arts (this of course applies to any style/system of martial arts but I've been told that the instructors I've have the privilige to train with state this idea sooner in your training than other arts I've been exposed to/talked to other martial artists about). Therefore, I think what you're doing is exactly what you are supposed to do with these arts. Unlike many disciplines which attempt to cram the student into the immutable mold of the art, Arnis/Escrima/Kali/FMAs are absorbed into the student to create something new with each and every practitioner. That being said, proficiency in the aforementioned principles and techniques of the style/system you claim to be a practicioner/student/master of is mandatory before striking out on your own. Some folks never even get that far.

Sorry for the rather long-winded post and the digression into matters of my own personal philosophy on the Filipino Martial Arts. I look forward to the opportunity to meet and train with you at the Symposium in July 2003.

Regards,

Richard Curren

[Mao]

Words are important. We have all heard "The pen is mightier than the sword". Spoken or written, words can cut/wound /hurt. or mislead. They can also make someone feel good etc.. My point is that when you use words, people develope a mental picture or an impression. I would not call a system that I develope TKD or Bando or JKD or Aikido or Modern Arnis even though I have trained in them to a great extent. What I may develope will be mine and be named accordingly. Just because Remy didn't come out and say specifically that you have seniors in Modern Arnis does not mean that you don't. I would consider anyone that has been training in an art longer than I my senior. If they stop taining and I don't, that's another story. There were many other people training in Modern Arnis in 1980, and before,so to say you "founded" Modern Arnis 80 can be very misleading. One can argue semantics all day but if you don't get the point, you just don't get it.

Without malice,
Guro Dan McConnell

[Dan Anderson]

Originally posted by Mao
There were many other people training in Modern Arnis in 1980, and before,so to say you "founded" Modern Arnis 80 can be very misleading. One can argue semantics all day but if you don't get the point, you just don't get it.

Without malice,
Guro Dan McConnell

Very true. Interesting point is that unless someone said 80 = 1980 , and that's it means, how could 80 be construed to mean only that? If one sticks to a fixed idea of how they interpret something, they will never get the point.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

PS - And without malice. Actually, I am looking forward to meeting and training with you at the 2003 Symposium. DA

[Guro Harold]

For some reason Modern Arnis 80 looks like Modern Arnis '80 in our minds.:)

[Mao]

D.A.,

" If one sticks to a fixed idea of how they interpret something, they will never get the point."

Excactly. Sounds like the same thing that I said.

"For some reason Modern Arnis 80 looks like Modern Arnis '80 in our minds."

Hey, excactly again. Sounds like something that others have said.

For me, 'nuff said.

Mao

[Guro Harold]

How about Modern Arnis Walampu?

[DoctorB]

Originally posted by Dan Anderson
Dear Martial Artists, 21 Jan 2003

I am putting my butt out here on the line and am doing a survey as to what has been referred to (by another) as misleading, misinforming and disrespectful to my late teacher, Remy Presas and this is regarding what I am doing with Modern Arnis. I thought I'd get some opinions and feedback from others who had trained under him as well as experienced martial artists. The two main points of contention are that I have named my own style of Modern Arnis as Modern Arnis 80 and that I title myself Professor as well as founder of Modern Arnis 80. Here are some facts to set begin with:


Dan Anderson

Hello Dan,

Nice post and a very reasonable way to get some feedback on these two topics. My positions are as follows:

"Modern Arnis 80" is the name that you have chosen and that is the name that you should use. Your explaination is very clear and very forthright. Whomever is in opposition to that name is just that... in opposition. Let's take a good hard look at the what is out here in the Modern Arnis world... International Modern Arnis Federation and IMAF Inc. Then we have the Modern Arnis Federation Philippines, World Modern Arnis Allience, World Modern Arnis Coalition and the American Modern Arnis Associates. That is just the major titles that I am instantly aware of and everyone associated with the leadership of each seperate organization has been taught by the later GM, Remy Presas.
If you are engaged is some sort of fraud then perhaps we should look at all of the people who have Modern Arnis in their organizaional titles!!!!

My point is quite simple - if you have trained in Modern Arnis and have a very clear history within the art under GM Presas or one of his senior accredited instructors then you have every right to use the name within your organizational title. Keep it and let's drop this point of discussion.

The matter of using the title "professor" is not as simple. The major problem stems from the fact that the title and the man are so closely linked in terms of the art that it is difficult for some people to seperate the two things - the title and the man. This is a function of Remy Presas being the founder and grand master as well as Remy Presas, the man having a magnificantly giant personality... he was chrarismatic... he was Modern Arnis.... he was THE PROFESSOR!! Therefore many Modern Arnis activists
find it is difficult, if not impossible, to have someone else, anyone else, using the title without seeing that person as a usurper of the late Professor's crown!!! That is why everyone who has attempted to use the title within Modern Arnis has come under constant fire from those within the ranks... in effect the critics are saying 'I knew the real Professor and you ain't him!'

My suggestion is take the "Modern Arnis 80" organizational title and use it proudly and as a tribute to your friend and former teacher. Drop the "professor" title from active usage and subsitute something like "Head Master" or use "Senior Master" since the late Professor Presas, awarded you the latter title and use it proudly, again in part as a tribute to your friend and teacher. That eliminates any and all confusion as well as serious points of contention.

In the end it is not the title, but the skill that counts. For ***** and giggles, I am going to combine the latter two titles and refer to you as the Senior Head Master of Modern Arnis 80, for the purposes of the uncoming Symposium. Get used to it, Danny, because that is the way it is going to be in my lexicon, "Senior Head Master"!!!

With all due respect to the others who have posted on this thread, I have not read one word of what you have posted before me. I waited to post without any influences and if I have duplicated anyone's response, I apologize.

So Danny, I have offered you a 50-50 solution and that is my final offer. The rest is up to you.

Jerome

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

[Dan Anderson]

Originally posted by DoctorB
Hello Dan,

1. The matter of using the title "professor" is not as simple. The major problem stems from the fact that the title and the man are so closely linked in terms of the art that it is difficult for some people to seperate the two things - the title and the man. This is a function of Remy Presas being the founder and grand master as well as Remy Presas, the man having a magnificantly giant personality... he was chrarismatic... he was Modern Arnis.... he was THE PROFESSOR!! Therefore many Modern Arnis activists
find it is difficult, if not impossible, to have someone else, anyone else, using the title without seeing that person as a usurper of the late Professor's crown!!! That is why everyone who has attempted to use the title within Modern Arnis has come under constant fire from those within the ranks... in effect the critics are saying 'I knew the real Professor and you ain't him!'

B. My suggestion is take the "Modern Arnis 80" organizational title and use it proudly and as a tribute to your friend and former teacher. Drop the "professor" title from active usage and subsitute something like "Head Master" or use "Senior Master" since the late Professor Presas, awarded you the latter title and use it proudly, again in part as a tribute to your friend and teacher. That eliminates any and all confusion as well as serious points of contention.

C. In the end it is not the title, but the skill that counts. For ***** and giggles, I am going to combine the latter two titles and refer to you as the Senior Head Master of Modern Arnis 80, for the purposes of the uncoming Symposium. Get used to it, Danny, because that is the way it is going to be in my lexicon, "Senior Head Master"!!!

D. So Danny, I have offered you a 50-50 solution and that is my final offer. The rest is up to you.

Jerome

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

Hi Jerome,

A. Point taken. I consider that in the eyes of the MA practitioners, Remy Presas upgraded from Professor to Grand Master. The early students called him Professor, the later students called him Grand Master and a number of them called him Remy. If one looks at it as 'I knew the real Professor and you ain't him!' they are right. I ain't him and don't claim to be.

B. Senior Master is a title RP bestowed on me but in my opinion, once I adopt that I become part of the whole mess of "Who's on first" again. I side stepped that and I don't plan to step back onto those set of railroad tracks again. I like Head Master as that is also used for a person who is the head of an academic institution and does not denote supremecy over others but Professor is more personal as I am continually teaching others on a daily basis.

C. Fine but don't blame me if you get tongue tied saying it and then get a cramp in your tongue requiring mass quantities of beer (or your choice) to loosen it.

D. Actually, I wasn't looking for any kind of solution but for others's viewpoints whether they were in or out of agreement witih mine. And if this is your final offer does this mean you won't offer to go to that restaurant with me we went to when I was in Buffalo last time? If that is the case, sir, that is cruel and unusual punishment indeed. :D

Yours,
Dan

[bloodwood]

Dan

You and I have discussed MA-80 in the past and the fact that it is a new organization headed by you and that the material and curriculum of MA-80 is that which you had learned from Professor Presas with a Dan Anderson twist added. No debate there.

My question is, Why build a race car (MA-80), talk about it, write books about it, and ask for opinions about it (this thread) but never take it out for a drive past your own street. Instead of questioning it's validity why not run with it. Your new organization is confined to your school and students. Maybe it's time to start acting like it's an organization by expanding it, promoting it and seeking new schools to be part of it.

It's time to step out on your own and make a new name for yourself. The new generation is a show me, prove it to me one. Do that and you won't have to ask what others think. Just show them. Venturing out on your own can be scary, but if you got the goods to back up what you claim the rewards will be many.

One step at a time gets you there, Running gets you there faster.

[Rich Parsons]

Dan,

You know if I had a problem with you or something you said, I would have told you in person on the phone or through e-mail.

As others have said, no matter what you do people will complain. Sometimes it maybe legitimate, other times it by those scared the most you might succeed.

As for Professor, I have no problems with the title. It is a title. I agree with your comments about some people calling Professor/GM Remy Presas by some title or other. Although, the ones who called him professor were to most shocked to hear that I called him Remy while sharing a beer, driving him somewhere. They were appalled or shocked. I meant no disrespect. So, you will run into some people who might resent the title. It is almost like the step dad after a dad as passed away. Some children will always be upset or resent the new dad and also resent if any other children call him dad.


As for the MA-80 issue. In my opinion, it is the title you have put together as your curriculum. This is fine. If you wish to have it go public or bog time, then take the advice of Bloodwood and make it an organization with you at the head.

In the end it is your call.

With Respect
:)

[thekuntawman]

i think there is two ways to look at this thing.

1. you have people who think modern arnis is perfect, and there is no need to "improved" modern arnis. so anyone who makes a new modern arnis, there must be something wrong with him (who does he think he is, is it ego, is he out for money, etc).

2. its nobodies business what you do with your style and your school, and if they dont like what you do, then they should shut you up or shut up themselves.

number one is not how the philippine martial arts got developed. every person who learns the art, have his own teachers, ideas, strength and experiences. if you mature in the art, then your art will never be like your teachers art. MA80 is how dan anderson looks at arnis. if dan anderson likes to do arnis this way, it is not remy presas style anymore its yours. did remy presas teach you HIS teachers art? or his art? he did not train you to be a remy presas students for ever, you are now a teacher and you have to teach your own style.

number two is not political correct, but its the philippine culture in the art. you cant all agree on everything. somebody has to say, my way is better, so that someone will disagree. this way you guys can get together and prove who's way is better. when this happend you both got better. these "death matches" that we like to read about, dont think they happened between teachers who are all pals and agree on the same things. as a teacher you have to be willing to face someone who disagrees with you, and you have to be willing to prove your point. if you go with everyone else, and want to be everyones friend, you are not ready to be a teacher of the fighting arts. so you are not afraid to tell someone to kiss your ass, what is wrong with that. so you are not afraid to say that you found a better way ("another" way? give me a break! if its not better, you would not do it!) nobody will have confidence in a teacher who does not think he is worthy enough to think for himself and have his own preference in the art. people who cant think for themself, you would call this guy a groupy, or a butt kisser. or a yes, man.

modern arnis 80 is your art, that means you matured inside of modern arnis. all the guys who are still trying to copy off his teacher, they still have the students mentallity, like a little kids acting like his dad. so what if people dont agree with you? arent you a fighter? let them prove that you dont know what your talking about! 9 times out of 10, they are not willing to do that.

my guess, like the saying, if you put a group of students together, they will argue who has the best style. if you put the teachers together, they will probably agree on everything. but if you put the best fighters from each teacher together, they will figure it out.

keep doing your thing and screw everybody else who doesnt like it.

[Roland]

or at least something to think about!

Why did we all call our instructor, Remy Presas, Professor..........

[DoctorB]

Originally posted by Dan Anderson
Hi Jerome,

A. Point taken. I consider that in the eyes of the MA practitioners, Remy Presas upgraded from Professor to Grand Master. The early students called him Professor, the later students called him Grand Master and a number of them called him Remy. If one looks at it as 'I knew the real Professor and you ain't him!' they are right. I ain't him and don't claim to be.

B. Senior Master is a title RP bestowed on me but in my opinion, once I adopt that I become part of the whole mess of "Who's on first" again. I side stepped that and I don't plan to step back onto those set of railroad tracks again. I like Head Master as that is also used for a person who is the head of an academic institution and does not denote supremecy over others but Professor is more personal as I am continually teaching others on a daily basis.

C. Fine but don't blame me if you get tongue tied saying it and then get a cramp in your tongue requiring mass quantities of beer (or your choice) to loosen it.

D. Actually, I wasn't looking for any kind of solution but for others's viewpoints whether they were in or out of agreement witih mine. And if this is your final offer does this mean you won't offer to go to that restaurant with me we went to when I was in Buffalo last time? If that is the case, sir, that is cruel and unusual punishment indeed. :D

Yours,
Dan

Hi Dan,

Thanks for the reply. Regarding point "C", I have already practiced saying "Senior Head Master" without any beers
(Heinikens, and YOU are buying the first two rounds) without
any slip ups!!! The next test is doing it under the pressure of
announcing you to an audience of Modern Arnis players in July!

With regard to point "D" - I wanted to make a suggestion that you could consider as well as point out why I was making it. My
sense of the problem is that it has less to do with the title or
term, "professor", than it does with the identificational pairing
of two names for the same person in the minds of many people
within Modern Arnis. I know that the title was bestowed on you for your kaarate expertise and accomplishements. I also know
that when you were hosting Remy at summer camps in the early 1980's, that the flyers read in part... 'Professor Remy Presas.... hosted by camp director, Professor Dan Anderson'; however, since you have founded your own variant of Modern Arnis and entitled it "Modern Arnis 80", I belieeve that you shold consider putting the professor designation into your printed resume and use a different title that makes it quite clear that you are the most senior person in the MA 80 system. 'Senior Head Master' certinly does that very effectively.

I have to mention that I have noticed in my reading of the other posts that no one has any real concern about organizational title of MA 80; that indicates to me that you've got the support of many people to forge ahead with it and ignore the critics!!! Go for it, Danny, just do it!!!

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

[DoctorB]

Originally posted by Rich Parsons
Dan,

You know if I had a problem with you or something you said, I would have told you in person on the phone or through e-mail.

As others have said, no matter what you do people will complain. Sometimes it maybe legitimate, other times it by those scared the most you might succeed.

As for Professor, I have no problems with the title. It is a title. I agree with your comments about some people calling Professor/GM Remy Presas by some title or other. Although, the ones who called him professor were to most shocked to hear that I called him Remy while sharing a beer, driving him somewhere. They were appalled or shocked. I meant no disrespect. So, you will run into some people who might resent the title. It is almost like the step dad after a dad as passed away. Some children will always be upset or resent the new dad and also resent if any other children call him dad.


As for the MA-80 issue. In my opinion, it is the title you have put together as your curriculum. This is fine. If you wish to have it go public or bog time, then take the advice of Bloodwood and make it an organization with you at the head.

In the end it is your call.

With Respect
:)

Hi Rich,

I am in complete agreement with you on th MA 80 piece of advice to Dan. I also have experienced the same thing from time to time when I refered to Remy, by name off the mat... some people were very surprised and upset about what they perceived as a lack of respect for "Professor or Grand Master Presas". What they overlooked was that Remy and I were from the same generation, six years apart in age and we had a mutal respect for one another's accomplishments. I had his permission to call him Remy, at any time and place!!!

On the mat, out of respect for him, the art and his status as founder, I ALWAYS refered to him "Professor" as did virtually everyone else. I was never surprised when some people used his name off the mat. I observed that if he did not want or appriciate a particular person addresing him by name, there was a look that he gave, perhaps unconciously, perhaps not, but
in either case, the point was made. The 'offender usually got
the visual message cue, without anyone else having to step in to "verbally clarify" that 'look'.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

[Dan Anderson]

Blood,
As to getting out in public, I'm working on it. The first step has been the ebooks. Second step is the SOKE Councilship event inFlorida last summer and the Filipino Gathering in San Francisco, also last summer.

The opinions I asked for are more for one specific reason - as usual, my key detractor is putting out that there is a groundswell opinion against what I have done so I thought I'd ask outright in public, "Hey Folks, what do you think?" Either there is a huge groudswell of public opinion decrying my folly or it's just one man's opinion. So far, it's just one man's opinion...as I thought. I do not ask for permission from my peers so please don't get the idea that I have cold feet or I feel the need for agreement to go with what I am doing.

Jerome,
You bought lunch so I have no problem with buying the first two rounds.

Roland,
That is how I was introduced to him.

Palusut,
Is Walampu 80 in Tagalog?

Rich,
As usual, well thought out and I do know if you had any problem with anything with me you'd bring it up right away. That's one of things I like about you - your forthrightness.

Kuntawman,
Yep, yep and if I didn't make myself clear, yep.
Dan

[Datu Tim Hartman]

The OFFICIAL opinion of the WMAA on Mr. Anderson’s MA-80 is as follows: Our members have the right to freedom of speech and self-expression. As long as Mr. Anderson’s actions do not break any laws, endanger people’s safety or reflect negatively on the WMAA, we do not feel there is a problem. Mr. Anderson’s actions only reflect upon himself. This is sole the opinion of the administrative team of our organization and does not reflect the personal opinions of our members.

Datu Tim Hartman
World Modern Arnis Alliance

[Guro Harold]

Hi Dan,

Yes, Walampu is 80 in Tagalog.

Palusut

[Dan Anderson]

Folks,
Thanks for your replies, both posted and private. I've gotten the pros and cons and opinions are what I was requesting. Thanks for taking the time. See you all in Buffalo for both the WMAA camp in May and the 2003 Symposium in July.

Yours,
Dan Anderson
:D

[Dan Anderson]

Originally posted by Mao
Words are important. Just because Remy didn't come out and say specifically that you have seniors in Modern Arnis does not mean that you don't. There were many other people training in Modern Arnis in 1980...
Guro Dan McConnell

Dan,
I have been thinking about the above point and have found a better way to state it. Seniority usually implies authority and authority over someone or something. What I should have said is since that RP was my direct teacher, he had authority over me in the Modern Arnis sense. He did not state that anyone else had authority over me. That is much clearer than saying that he did not say I had seniors. I agree with you that there were many others who trained earlier than 1980 than I. There are others who have higher ranking than I directly under RP. As to authority over me, that is a different matter. A good comparative would be to ask if I had authority over you, since I am higher ranked. I can answer that faster than you - no, I don't. Here are where the roads separate. You have your own goals and purposes and influences and they may differ from mine.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

[Angus]

While I'm not a Modern Arnis practitioner, I can't see why there would be a problem to take a great art lacking structure and building upon it and giving it it's own skeleton. Not knowing the specific differences beyond that I can't comment on the change of title, however I can say that if it suits your teaching style and helps your students to learn/progress/continue what is still essentially Modern Arnis, then it doesn't seem to be of any harm to neither the WMAA (as it is still promoting Modern Arnis) nor you. After all, if it's Modern Arnis, it's Modern Arnis, and promotion of the art is going to be beneficial regardless, especially when the sole difference (as I understand it) is merely the method with which the MA curriculum is taught. Easily overlooked, I'd imagine, by people who just see the name.

As far as the Professor title, I think it's fine, especially given your history (not to mention it was formally given to you by ATAMA, no?). In my opinion, titles like Head Master, Senior Master, etc, sound almost as presumptuous as Great Grand Master and BS like that. It's less the title rather than the multitude of fakes that have given titles such a bad name. I tend to shudder when I see a english title like that ("Soke" included) before a person's name, because a lot of the time it doesn't seem warranted. Professor is a far more professional sounding name that doesn't have a lot of the same negative connotations, at least for me. I think it's important to note that you're still giving 100% credit to training history, and you aren't claiming to be anything you're not. I think that's pretty important. Granted, people may still get angry regardless because RP used the title himself for a while, but it's only a title. There are plenty of other professors out there, and it's not a title of belt rank like "Grand Master" would be; it simply implies that you know very deeply and intimately your subject of interest, which, in your case, happens to be Modern Arnis and Karate. Regardless, though, you're always going to have someone complain about titles, arts, etc, and it's impossible to get away from that.



If what you do makes you happy, your students happy, and promotes the arts in a positive way, then I would imagine it's probably ok regardless of what people are going to say.

Just my very small fraction of an unsolicited cent.

[lhommedieu]

From the Eskrima Digest (2/1):

"Professor Presas was a professor of Physical education in the Philippines, I studied under his brother, Professor Ernesto Presas at the University of Santo Tomas. We called him "Professer" because he was one."

-Carlo Arellano

[Dan Anderson]

Stepher,
Good bit of history there. Thanks.

Dan

[Roland]

...that was the answere I was looking for.
Was not sure if some people did not know it, or were just trying to ignore the fact!



:soapbox:

[The Mist]

Clearly Mr. Anderson you are aware that practitioners of Modern Arnis referred to Professor as not just merely a title. It was almost a family name. Almost like Father, or Dad. He always taught with that mantle of kindness. And all the Practitioners I know (and that is at least 100), called him that with that air of family!
Sure you have some kick ass technique, but in the general community of Modern Arnis you have not established yourself as the Father or the Art. I belive that you can claim your master status without using the Title of Professor.
I am sure that others called his brother Professor also, but, within the Modern Arnis community in America... you are coopting "Remy's" father figure status.
I belive that is JUST NOT RIGHT!!
And,
If you want to go with Arnis 80, go for it... Modern Arnis is your art too, it is for everyone... your personal flavor will just enrich the art!
(Tim) It was well that you put out that formal statement on the Matter for the WMAA.

[Dan Anderson]

Dear Mist,
To reply:
"Clearly Mr. Anderson you are aware that practitioners of Modern Arnis referred to Professor as not just merely a title. It was almost a family name. Almost like Father, or Dad. He always taught with that mantle of kindness. And all the Practitioners I know (and that is at least 100), called him that with that air of family!

As one of his earliest students in the 1980's, I am very aware of that.

"Sure you have some kick ass technique, but in the general community of Modern Arnis you have not established yourself as the Father or the Art."

That has never been my intention and I have never claimed so.

"I belive that you can claim your master status without using the Title of Professor."[i/]

Okay.

[i]"I am sure that others called his brother Professor also, but, within the Modern Arnis community in America... you are coopting "Remy's" father figure status.

To the first, possibly. I don't know. To the second, you are missing the point completely. I use the title as it is an English, not Tagalog term for an instructor who is senior to a teacher. Also, although many of us refered to our teacher as "Professor," many more refered to him as Grand Master as well. I have always claimed and continue to claim that I am not attempting to step into his positioning in Modern Arnis and never will claim to.

"I belive that is JUST NOT RIGHT!! "

Thank you for your forthright opinion.

And, If you want to go with Arnis 80, go for it... Modern Arnis is your art too, it is for everyone... your personal flavor will just enrich the art!
(Tim) It was well that you put out that formal statement on the Matter for the WMAA.

To both of the above, thanks again.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

[Lady Presas]

Originally posted by Dan Anderson

Also, although many of us refered to our teacher as "Professor," many more refered to him as Grand Master as well.

Yours,
Dan Anderson [/B]

Dan-

I disagree with your statement. I attended most of Professor Presas' seminars in the years' immediately preceding his retirement. The majority of the people called him "Professor". Not to be rude, but I don't recall seeing you at any of these seminars, so how could you possibly know how the people addressed him?

It seems to me that when people outside the system initially met Remy, they addressed him as GM. However, as they came to know him and were drawn into the system, they would use the more familiar term of "Professor". It was his preference to be called Professor, as he thought that the term Grand Master was intimidating.


:asian:

[DoctorB]

Originally posted by Lady Presas
Dan-

I disagree with your statement. I attended most of Professor Presas' seminars in the years' immediately preceding his retirement. The majority of the people called him "Professor". Not to be rude, but I don't recall seeing you at any of these seminars, so how could you possibly know how the people addressed him?

:asian:

Here we go again with that statement ' I did not see you at any of the seminars/camps that I attended...'. This is not to criticize or belittle anyone's point of view or any part pf Lady Presas' other statements within her post. I would simply like everyone to understand that ALL of us can make that statement; AND ALL of us can be burned by it because it would be impossible for anyone to have attended every single seminar and camp over the 26 years that Remy Presas taught in the USA, Canada and Europe.

If this is the only validating statement that one can make in establishing a point within a post or thread, then perhaps one should reconsider what they have to say.

For me the arguement is not about how many seminars or camps one attended. Tt is about whether or not, as an individual, one believe that within the Modern Arnis world, that ANYONE can or should use the title "professor"! Let's stick to that and discuss that, because NONE of us went to every single seminar and camp that Remy Presas conducted.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

[bloodwood]

Dan stated in his opening post to start this thread, "I'm putting my butt out here on the line."
When something as controversial as the Professor Title is at the heart of the discussion people tend to get quite passionate about what they say. Dan opened this can of worms all by himself so let the posts fall where they will. If that's the way the Lady feels, So be it. Lady Presas has made only 3 posts and most are on this subject. It she felt strongly enough about this to come foreword, then give the lady her right to speak her mind.

[Dan Anderson]

Originally posted by Lady Presas
Dan-

I disagree with your statement. I attended most of Professor Presas' seminars in the years' immediately preceding his retirement. The majority of the people called him "Professor". Not to be rude, but I don't recall seeing you at any of these seminars, so how could you possibly know how the people addressed him?

It seems to me that when people outside the system initially met Remy, they addressed him as GM. However, as they came to know him and were drawn into the system, they would use the more familiar term of "Professor". It was his preference to be called Professor, as he thought that the term Grand Master was intimidating.


:asian:

Dear Lady,
No rudeness or insult received on this end. ;)I wasn't at the seminars immediately preceding his death but the ones I did attend, many of the students referred to him as GM rather than Professor. Quick question: How did you now he was intimidated by the term GM? Did he tell you this, did you read this by his body language as someone addressed him as such or did you infer this? Just curious here.

Dear Blood,
Sure did put my butt on the line here and you know what? Reletively few paddlings or :flame: blowtorches :flame: have come my way. The fascinating thing I find is the comparative lack of response. Out of all the registered posters on MartialTalk, a small number have said anything one way or the other. What that means to me is in the over all picture, hardly anybody cares what the Sam Hill I call myself. Interesting.

All for now,
Dan Anderson
:D

[Bob Hubbard]

To be honest Dan, I think most folks are just tired of all the politics and ******** thats piled up since Remy died.

For a while we had some huge flames here on who was the new 'heir', who was ahead of who, etc.

At this point, I think its at the 'talk n titles n ranks are cheep, get on the mat n show us what ya got' stage.

Theres an easy dozen+ organizations, a large number of 'independants', etc, all with their own thoughts and opinions on what Modern Arnis is, was, and will be.

Call yourself founder, professor, furuer, grand high exaulted poobah of the dark segment. Most of us dont really care. We just wanna know, can you do the dance and truely 'fit' whatever title you have chosen?

Those of us who attend the seminars this year will be watching to see if in fact you can. Some will always find fault in what you do. Thats their problem. Just be prepared as some will call you on the professor title, perhaps nicely, perhaps in the parking lot. Won't be us low belters mind you, but the self proclaimed who rattle their sticks claiming their are topdog, yet never seem to go more than 100 miles from home to promote the art, or attend events where they might encounter someone who knows better.

The WMAA camp in May and the MAS in July will put you on the spot, to show in front of your peers what you have got. Better dig out the dress Gi....somefolks might be checking the creases. ;)

Me personally?
I think you're entitled to do what you believe is right. Time will either promote or expose the truth.

Peace. :)

:asian:

[The Mist]

My primary point was not to question Dan Anderson's ability, but to point out the principle of respect in the Martial Arts. I simply felt that since the title of Professor was in essence a term of endearment, that to take it for his own was disrespectful. But, I have to take Mr. Anderson at his word and believe that he meant no disrespect. I think that with it being pattently obvious that a portion of the community would be offended by his actions, that he might rethink his decision. Apparently he has no real plan to do that. Which I will repeat, "It's just plain wrong".
Mr. Anderson has already gone a long way to prove himself as a martial artisit, and "Kaith" I belive that he knows about putting his money where his mouth is. I feel to point out that fact to him is disrespectful, which is simular to what I was speaking out against. And such a comment only lowers the level of discourse reguarding the matter. Proffessor Presas, would not have condoned that in an open forum like this. (In private might be another matter) :)
And not to champion Mr Anderson's cause, but he is only claiming to be top dog of his style MA80. Which none of us can dispute. You might note that even though we have a honest disagreement on the matter of the "Proffessor" Title, there were no thinly veiled threats from his side of the aisle.

[Bob Hubbard]

Please, don't think I was threatening Dan. There was no slight, disrespect or threat intended by me. I know of the heat he's gotten on the issue, and wether I agree with the term or not, only sought to point out, the decision to use or not use is his, and he has to deal with any fall out that may occur.

Having been hit with a few 'ya wanna step outsides' over the last 5 years by folks myself (over less inflamitory things in most cases) I felt I would be remiss if I didn't point out the possibility, as some of those same folks will no doubt take Dan to task for his choice of words or whatever.

I wouldn't challenge him, as I am looking forward to seeing him again in May. I like Dan, he's good people. :)

[Rich Parsons]

Kaith,

Did you say Challenge?

Now you have done it?

Ok, Dan I Challenge you to drinking a beer and chatting the night away and getting up and doing the camp again! :) ;)

Yeah I challenge Tough don't I? :eek: :rofl:

Seriously, I hope to have a nice chat and beer with you and others in Buffalo in May and also in July.



As for the Professor, thing; it could cause bad press. (* Search on Professor for other threads for other members ideas on professor. *) It is up to Dan Anderson to decide and for his students to decide to call him that also. I always thought it was a two way street when it came to that name / title and respect thing. Could be wrong, I have been before. Going back to find my conscious and see if it is unconsciously conscious of itself? Or in essence have another beer.

I do enjoy reading posts like Lady Presas and others, It is good to hear point of views and to be able to just maybe learn a different point of view.

Ciao

:asian:

[The Mist]

(Rich) Is that to say that the seeker has found the seer, and realized that the seer was never lost? Because if that is the case, then I belive shots are in order. :)

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by The Mist
(Rich) Is that to say that the seeker has found the seer, and realized that the seer was never lost? Because if that is the case, then I belive shots are in order. :)

The Mist,

I am thinking you have grasped the meaning.

Shots are in order. I like Te'Quila with the salt and lime or lemon.

Look me up!

:)

[DoctorB]

Originally posted by bloodwood
Dan stated in his opening post to start this thread, "I'm putting my butt out here on the line."
When something as controversial as the Professor Title is at the heart of the discussion people tend to get quite passionate about what they say. Dan opened this can of worms all by himself so let the posts fall where they will. If that's the way the Lady feels, So be it. Lady Presas has made only 3 posts and most are on this subject. It she felt strongly enough about this to come foreword, then give the lady her right to speak her mind.

Dear Bloodwood,

No one has suggested that Lady Presas, should not speak her mind... if that has occured I missed it within this thread... please clarify the matter and quote the source.

Lady Presas wrote on 2-16-2003
"I attended most of Professor Presas' seminars in the years' immediately preceding his retirement. The majority of the people called him "Professor". Not to be rude, but I don't recall seeing you at any of these seminars, so how could you possibly know how the people addressed him?"

My objection is was specificly limited to:

"... but I don't recall seeing you at any of these seminars..."

And I believe that I clearly stated that position in my post. This has almost become a 'mantra' and some variant of it appears in almost every thread. Count the years that Professor taught in the USA - 26; count the number of possible weekends for seminars and camps - 1352 - and it becomes obvious that no one aside from Professsor was at ALL of the CAMPS and SEMINARS!!

The use of that arguement has worn exceedingly thin, it is without merit!! If one has to predicate their position on who saw whom at how many seminars/camps, then they are either very lazy or they do not have a good arguement to offer!!

I am, however, in agreement with Lady Presas' basic premise regardinng the use of the term "professor" within the Modern Arnis context. I wrote the following on 1-24-2003:

"The matter of using the title "professor" is not as simple. The major problem stems from the fact that the title and the man are so closely linked in terms of the art that it is difficult for some people to seperate the two things - the title and the man. This is a function of Remy Presas being the founder and grand master as well as Remy Presas, the man having a magnificantly giant personality... he was charismatic... he was Modern Arnis.... he was THE PROFESSOR!! Therefore many Modern Arnis activists find it is difficult, if not impossible, to have someone else, anyone else, using the title without seeing that person as a usurper of the late Professor's crown!!! That is why everyone who has attempted to use the title within Modern Arnis has come under constant fire from those within the ranks... in effect the critics are saying 'I knew the real Professor and you ain't him!'"

Lady Presas, has said essentially the same thing. Her message has not been censored, nor has anyone told her that she can't object to Dan using the title. She can. She has. And I offered a suggestion to Dan, "Senior Head Master". He declined to accept my suggestion. He is well within his right to do so and I am not offended in the least.

I am simply tired of reading that ridiculous statement about not seeing someone at the seminars and camps that another person attended. Has it ever occured to all of you who have made that statement, that Modern Arnis was taught at seminars and camps by Professor? So, if one attended 5 seminars and 2 camps a year, the most that you could have trained with Professor was 14 - 19 days a year. Who were you studying Modern Arnis with the rest of the time? And what if you only went to one seminar and one camp per year? The maximum time for training with Professor was now only 7 days for that year. Who were you training with when Professor was not available to you the other 358 days of that year?

This is why the 2003 Modern Arnis International Symposium is important to us all. We have the opportunity to meet, work with, hold discussions with some of those people who were and are the backbone of the Modern Arnis System!!! Professor may have been the heart, but the skeletal framework was provided by the people who labored day in and day out teaching the art from beginners to blackbelt! I want to honor the system, the founder and the instructors at the Symposium.

I do not believe that it is in Dan's best long term interest to insist on using the title within a Modern Arnis context, but that is entirely his decision to make. That is the way it is and nothing is going to alter that bit of reality. Both Lady Presas and I, along with many others have expressed our opinions on both sides of the matter, but it still goes back to Dan for the final decision.

Just my thoughts on this matter.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

[Guro Harold]

Dan,

Just an observation. Any reason why you do not address Lady Presas as "Lady Presas", coincidence?

Palusut

[Angus]

It's interesting to watch this discussion go on. Correct me if I'm wrong (and this is essentially a point that Dan already touched on), but it seems that it all boils down to the fact that it's the same title as Remy Presas. Think about it; if Dan were in any other circle (for example, his Karate circle with which his title stems from), would anyone have a problem with his title, due to his knowledge, experience, and dedication to the arts in much the same fasion as a Professor of an academic or historical study? Most people probably wouldn't. However, due to his association with the MA group, people equate that title to the one held by Remy Presas as though it's a very specific title. It's not, in my opinion. It simply relates to the above criteria. I don't think it encompasses or carries with it some grandiose maximum of skill or ability, but rather a minimum (which may be very high) that can be built upon in various amounts or ways. Presas certainly had an extreme amount of skill, but I don't think because he did that anyone else to has the title has to perfectly emulate it. It simply states that one has a very strong knowledge in the subject with which they have studied so deeply.

If it were any other art, would there be a problem?

Just my two cents based upon reading the thread. Sorry to intrude further.

[The Mist]

A fairly sound point Angus, If you had an international well established and structured body, e.g. TKD. Where someone could earn a rank or title of master, or grandmaster. But, since "Proffessor" was commonly used in Modern Arnis not as a rank, but as a Descriptive Name or term of endearment. Rather than a rank. There are plenty of rank titles or Master Titles withing the Art of Arnis. For example... Guro or (forgive my spelling it's six in the AM) Punong Guro. They would incate a teacher, and or grand master title. No one would have a problem with Mr. Anderson using the correct title such as one of theese or one of it's english equivalents or even one of a different dialect of the PI. And If I had some coffee, I might be inclined to print one possible rank chart with the title names and not just the rank names.... e.g. Lakan Tatlo... for third degree.... or just add Lakan to any number 1 to 10. Or even on the other titles that Proffessor issued such as Datu.... which isn't an established rank... it is a title of leadership within the community. So, in this case the map is not the territory. And that is why people such as Lady Presas might say to someone such as Mr. Anderson..... do you really have the detailed experience in the territory(in a current framework) to make such a decision about that map. Because if he deploys his troops, he may find there is a swamp right where he thought there was a grassy plain. And that's sort of messy.

[modarnis]

To avoid the flames, let me first say I could care less what people refer to themselves as. The real issue at is not what substance a particular person has to justify the title Professor, but the context in which they use it.

If I were appointed faculty at the loacal law school to teach trial advocacy, I would get a title like visiting adjunct professor of law or some such. The title doesn't make me, what I have to offer as a teacher makes or breaks my reputation in that context.

For many in Modern Arnis, the term Professor was Remy Presas' name. Most people never called him anything but Professor or sir. Curiously, when he would meet new people in my presence, he introduced himself as Remy. Of course what made him "the Professor" was not the mere fact he actually was a professor in the Philipine University system rather it was who he was as a person, teacher, fighter and friend.

Can anyone ever be The Professor?...nope those shoes are way too big to fill. Can someone be a professor ? If they have the goods to offer probably.

I will paraphrase what I said to my students at class after learning of the Professor's death:

The Professor would not want us fighting over names (that night it was crying for him) he would want us to train. Maybe we should spend more quality time on that thought

Brett:asian:

[Datu Tim Hartman]

I've been staying away from this thread because I feel that it's too hot to get to involved in. It doesn't seem like it's going away soon so I'll make my personal statement and be done with it.

Dan-

This seem to be your justification for you using the title of Professor in Modern Arnis.


Originally posted by Dan Anderson
I consider that in the eyes of the MA practitioners, Remy Presas upgraded from Professor to Grand Master. The early students called him Professor, the later students called him Grand Master

If this is your reasoning, your data is wrong. As a person who has seen Remy more than most people, possibly everyone since he moved to the US, I feel that I can help clear things up.

Remy was the Founder and Grand Master of Modern Arnis. We addressed him as Professor. I started traveling to see Remy on the circuit in 1986 at the Mississippi Summer Camp, and continued to do so till the end in Germany October 2000, where he was diagnosed with a brain tumor. He was our Grand Master, but we knew and addressed him as Professor.

This is not to say that certain areas and groups didn't address him differently.

Dan, do what you want. If you are saying that Remy was upgraded to GM so it leaves a vacant title that you could fill, people will argue this point. If you are going to use the title because that's the title you want to use, then just use it and be done with it. If we look at official titles that Remy publicly awarded people, they would be as follows: Guro, Punong Guro, Senior Master, Datu and Master of Tapi- Tapi. He never issued a "professor" title. Yes, Michael Bates was referred to as "Junior Professor" as opposed to the title that he had of Master Bates (giggle, giggle). Seeing that Remy was the only "Professor", people will think you are trying to be him.

Do what you want. My only point in this post was to clear up how Remy was addressed by his students.

I think starting this thread was a waste of time. If you are going to use the title, do it...no excuses, no whining, no crying. I have taken so much heat from several different internet forums about receiving the titles of Punong guro and Datu from Remy. I have wasted a lot a time and effort trying to defend myself for receiving these promotions from our Grand Master. I have been told that since I am a white boy, I cannot be "worthy" of those titles. Remy awarded them to me, and that's is all the validation I need. So if you are going to do this, stand up straight and take the good with the bad. Or as my stepfather used to say, "Sh?t or get off the pot".

Tim Hartman

[Celadora]

The problem with SELF-PROCLAIMED titles is that they warrent a lack of respect. In the values of our Western democratic society, titles are given, not self-proclaimed. In any organization, the President, Representatives, Prime Minister etc. is elected by a coalition of his/her peers, giving him rights to the title. In the martial arts world, titles are awarded in response to being earned through testing and dedication by the hierarchy of the structure.

I could self-proclaim myself to be called Supreme Philanthropic Celadora of the Universe, but until I do something that justifies others to award me the verification of the title, it would be folly to expect others to call me by that title in seriousness.

If you were awared the title of Professor in your Karate style, then wear it with pride. However, from the posts on this thread it appears that no hierarchy of power (the Professor) or a coalition of the Modern Arnis community has awarded you rights to the title in Modern Arnis. I will not be calling you professor, and will not until the title is deemed justifiable by either myself or by a majority of the Modern Arnis community. Only then will you have rights to that title. If you students want to acknolwedge you by that title, then that is their right. I would also caution you against pressuring your own students to address you by a title they are not comfortable with.

This would apply not just for the title of professor, but for any title. For example, Mr. Hartman was given the title of Datu by the Professor and awarded a 7th degree by a panel of his peers- therefore he has rights to both.

[Tapps]

The problem with SELF-PROCLAIMED titles is that they warrent a lack of respect. In the values of our Western democratic society, titles are given, not self-proclaimed. In any organization, the President, Representatives, Prime Minister etc. is elected by a coalition of his/her peers, giving him rights to the title. In the martial arts world, titles are awarded in response to being earned through testing and dedication by the hierarchy of the structure.


The term Professor has never been a "Title" in Modern Arnis. It was rather a term of endearment and respect. Think of it as being a kin to Grandpa.

I think the problem is we have all lost Grandpa fairly recently. So when Mr. Anderson comes in and says call me Grandpa, my response may very well be to stomp my feet and kick over my toy box. I miss Grandpa and you ain’t him.

Please forgive the analogy, no disrespect intended to anyone. As a professional counselor I do believe that any “controversy” is tied up in the grieving process and the fact that we all miss Professor Remy.

There is no doubt Mr. Anderson he is qualified to teach Modern Arnis, in any form he chooses.

Mr. Anderson says he does not intend any disrespect towards Remy Presas. I , for one, take him at his word. Nothing I’ve read or heard him utter has ever lead me to believe he didn’t respect the Professor. I think usurping the title of Grandmaster IS disrespectful…. But that’s not Dan and is best saved for another thread.

The question is can he use the term “Professor”? Well, nobody can stop him. I understand why it upsets people but I don’t think it’s out of line. I personally think you would save yourself a lot of BS if you used one of the other titles that's been discussed. There is no sense in putting people on the defensive from the get go. As previously stated the title matters less than what you can put on the mat.

I hope to continue to use the exalted title of ”beermeDannyBoy” where you are concerned. A loftier moniker there is not.

[Dan Anderson]

Hi Folks,

A - there is no challenge received by Kaith or anybody else for that matter. Opinions and viewpoints which were requested by me.

B - Palusut - I call Lady Presas Lady the same way I call Bloodwood Blood, as a first name rather than getting formal. No insults intended.

C - An interesting point finally brought up by Tapps and Celadora - "I hope to continue to use the exalted title of ”beermeDannyBoy” where you are concerned. A loftier moniker there is not.(Tapps)" "I could self-proclaim myself to be called Supreme Philanthropic Celadora of the Universe, but until I do something that justifies others to award me the verification of the title, it would be folly to expect others to call me by that title in seriousness (Celadora)."

I have never requested that anyone call me Professor outside my school, where it is required. Most often I tell people to call me Dan or if they have a strict senior/junior formality they must follow, then Mr. Anderson.

D - Rich - I accept your challenge but will forego anything with tequila in it. It agrees with me not.

E - Tim - In the last ones I went to I heard GM more than Professor or Remy. Also this is not my reasoning, that a vacancy has been left with RP's ugrade to GM and I am filling it. To assume that is to make the preposterous assumption tha I am now filling RP's shoes, Modern Arnis wise. Ain't none of there, yet. Someday perhaps but as of February 19, 2003, ain't none of us there yet.

Again, thanks for the input I asked for. It has provided lots of viewpoints and good discussion.

Yours,
Dan Anderson :D

[bloodwood]

The fascinating thing I find is the comparative lack of response. Out of all the registered posters on MartialTalk, a small number have said anything one way or the other. What that means to me is in the over all picture, hardly anybody cares what the Sam Hill I call myself. Interesting.

I do think people care and I don't think most agree with you. I personally believe that you are defending an undefensible position. Change it and move on or be prepared to defend it, over and over and over again. Many of your peers are sending you a message, why aren't you listening.

[Dan Anderson]

Originally posted by Renegade
I've been staying away from this thread because I feel that it's too hot to get to involved in. It doesn't seem like it's going away soon so I'll make my personal statement and be done with it.

Dan-

1.This seem to be your justification for you using the title of Professor in Modern Arnis.

2.Dan, do what you want. If you are saying that Remy was upgraded to GM so it leaves a vacant title that you could fill, people will argue this point. If you are going to use the title because that's the title you want to use, then just use it and be done with it.

3.I think starting this thread was a waste of time. If you are going to use the title, do it...no excuses, no whining, no crying. I have taken so much heat from several different internet forums about receiving the titles of Punong guro and Datu from Remy. I have wasted a lot a time and effort trying to defend myself for receiving these promotions from our Grand Master. I have been told that since I am a white boy, I cannot be "worthy" of those titles. Remy awarded them to me, and that's is all the validation I need. So if you are going to do this, stand up straight and take the good with the bad. Or as my stepfather used to say, "Sh?t or get off the pot".

Tim Hartman

Tim,
I read this post and would like to respond as, of all people, you misunderstand me too.

1. Not my justification at all. See my last post above.

2. Same.

3. For my purposes it has been very fruitful. It has drawn people's opinions who wouldn't have said anything in the first place. Also, it has been claimed by another that the overwhelming consensus has been that I am misleading, misrepresenting and disrespectful but no names were mentioned nor were there anything but vast generalities. So I sought specifics, e.g. Joe Blow says "Dan, you da man." or "Dan, you fulla *****." This is how I sort out vague and general accusations and now I have specifics.

Another misconception is that I am looking for agreement in what I am doing/have done. It appears you share this misconception. We talked about this at length when I was in Buffalo for the 1st WMAA camp so I am a trifle surprised. All you old timers remember that I did the same thing back in 1977 when I coined the title American Freestyle Karate for what I do in karate. That drew some heat also but I stuck with it. There has never been any consideration in my mind that I should back off from my convictions or second guess the rightness or wrongness of my actions after I have taken the time to formulate and implement them.

This post was a fact finding mission and it has been successful. That it sparked some spirited dialogue as well is frosting on the cake.

Over and out,
Dan Anderson

[lhommedieu]

I can't believe the fuse is still sputtering.

Located on John Bishop's Kajukenbo forum - History/Who's Who in Kajukenbo:

http://www.ohiokajukenbo.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi (http://)

Professor Harry Herrera
Professor Larry Gumataotao
Professor Al Dacascos
Professor Eugene Sedeno
Professor John Leoning
Professor Sid Asuncion
Professor Carlos Bunda
Professor Doug Bunda
Professor Colleen Gragen
Professor Eric Lee
Professor Sam Allred
Professor Philip Gelinas

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Originally posted by lhommedieu
I can't believe the fuse is still sputtering.

Located on John Bishop's Kajukenbo forum - History/Who's Who in Kajukenbo:

http://www.ohiokajukenbo.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi (http://)

Professor Harry Herrera
Professor Larry Gumataotao
Professor Al Dacascos
Professor Eugene Sedeno
Professor John Leoning
Professor Sid Asuncion
Professor Carlos Bunda
Professor Doug Bunda
Professor Colleen Gragen
Professor Eric Lee
Professor Sam Allred
Professor Philip Gelinas

Kenpo not Modern Arnis.

[lhommedieu]

Originally posted by Renegade
Kenpo not Modern Arnis.

Modern Arnis 80 not Modern Arnis

[bloodwood]

If Modern Arnis 80 is a compilation of what THE Professor taught Dan, it IS Modern Arnis.

[lhommedieu]

Originally posted by bloodwood
If Modern Arnis 80 is a compilation of what THE Professor taught Dan, it IS Modern Arnis.



If.



To reject the premise of Dan Anderson's original post is to revert to a "duck season - rabbit season" kind of debate. He asked for opinions, and opinions were given.

Respectfully and fraternally,

Steve Lamade

[bloodwood]

My mistake. I should not have used the word IF. Dan has stated that MA-80 IS what he learned from the Professor. So it is Modern Arnis and this thread is getting to be real chicken S**t. I think it's time to send this thread where it belongs.
:toilclaw:

[Cruentus]

Originally posted by lhommedieu
Modern Arnis 80 not Modern Arnis

Ahhhhhhh...Here is an interesting point, but I would disagree. Dan has clearly said that MA-80 IS Modern Arnis, but it is his interpretation of what RP taught him. Yes, I know, this still sounds like his own style, but not according to Dan. Dan specifically says he is NOT grandmaster, and he has NOT created his own style. MA-80 is a cirriculum.

This is an easy mistake to make because Dan has called himself "founder" and even accepted an award for "Founder of the Year," which implies that MA-80 is it's own system. This is a prime example of what name and title confusion leads to.

O.K. here is the bottom line for me:

I have also stayed away from this thread for many reasons, listed as follows:

1. Dan is a good martial artist who has accomplished great things so far in his lifetime regarding his American Freestyle Karate.
2. Dan means no ill will to the late Professor Presas, or his students.
3. Dan has done good things for Modern Arnis since Professors death, such as his various publications on the art.
4. Dan is a good instructor.
5. When I talk to Dan in person, he is not an ego monger. He doesn't demand that anyone call him of any specific title.
6. Overall, Dan is a darned good guy.

Now, having said all of this, I haven't responded because I am not in agreement with Dan over the Professor title, or at least how it is being handled. This is a conflict for me because I really like and respect Dan as a person, and a Martial Artist.

Dan (I'm speaking to you directly now), Please don't take this the wrong way. I mean no disrespect by this. It is just that I feel that in Modern Arnis, the Professor title is something that was revered for Remy, and it just hits way to close too home. Since Remy's death I have considered Tim Hartman my primary instructor for Modern Arnis, yet even as such I wouldn't even feel comfortable if Tim took on a "Professor of Modern Arnis" title either. I know that you have in fact earned the title "Professor" in Karate, but in Modern Arnis "Professor" has a whole different meaning.

I also agree that GM wouldn't be appropriate either; especially since you have explicitly stated that MA-80 is not it's own system (in that it's still Modern Arnis) but it is your cirriculum for Modern Arnis. Now if you really want MA-80 to be it's own system, then that is another thread, but I think that you and I know both know that isn't the answer either. For one, you would have to drop the "Modern Arnis" name, I would think, if it were to stand on it's own as it's own system. Otherwise you would be unfairly riding on the Modern Arnis name while confusing people in the process. Plus, it is clear when you teach your cirriculum that MA-80 is not it's own style; rather it is what you describe exactly....your ciriculum and interpretation of what Prof. Presas taught you.

I don't think that founder would be an appropriate title either. Yes, I know, I know.....you have explained many times the meaning of "founder." Regardless, when people think founder they will think that MA-80 is it's own style, which you have rightfully stated it's not. No matter how you explain it, semantics are semantics; you can't simply refer to a different definition and expect people to no longer identify the word or title for what has been generally excepted. I couldn't call myself "The Guro who can Kick Tim Hartmans Ass, Paul Janulis," and then justify it by saying, "Hey, I didn't mean kick Tim's ass in a fight, I ment kick his ass at golf." People are not going to except my explained definition, regardless of what I say, or how many times Tim really kicks my ass. Maybe that's a poor example, and a sad attempt at humor, but I think you get the point.

Founder, however is a much better one then professor, given that "professor" just hit's too close to home with regards to our late teacher.

Do you want to know what title I like the best? "Senior Master." There are only a small handful of people who have that title, and the best thing about it is you have rightfully earned it. No one will dispute that. The Senior Master title is quite an accomplishment in itself; and Professor Presas gave that to you to for all that you have done for his art. I'm sure he was proud to award you with that title, and I think you should wear it with pride. No one will be awarded "Senior Master" by Professor again. I think you should wear it proudly and with honor, for that would be the best way to revere our late teacher, I think; by using the title that he designated special for you and only a few others.

And for me...that is what I would feel the most comfortable addressing you as. "Senior Master Anderson, Master Anderson, or Mr. Anderson" on the floor, and "Dan" at the bar over some beers. I think most people like myself who like and respect you feel the same way.

And, Dan, if your wondering why I haven't addressed this to you in person, let me explain. I basically agree with Brett; I don't think names are worth argueing over. I will respect you no matter what title you decide on. I only get angry when someone tries to misrepresent themselves (for instance, saying, "I'm GM in modern Arnis because Professor Presas told me so"). I know that misrepresentation or disrespect is the last thing you would want to do. I didn't mention it before because we never got into detail over the names. We talked about technique, and other more important stuff. If you had asked me in confident, however, I would have told you in person. Since you want to hear responses publically (which I also respect) I chose to address it in this way.

Well, it's midnight, my girlfriend is pissed because I came all the way to my office to e-mail this, and tell you how I really felt. If you want to talk to me in person over it, call me. I hope you take mine, as well as everyone elses opinions to heart, as I am sure you will.

Sincerely,
Paul Janulis

[Cruentus]

I will be away from my computer until monday, so I will not be able to respond via internet until then. So please, respect my lack of further response here until next week.

thank you

:asian:

[arnisador]

Originally posted by PAUL
1. Dan is a good martial artist who has accomplished great things so far in his lifetime regarding his American Freestyle Karate.
2. Dan means no ill will to the late Professor Presas, or his students.
3. Dan has done good things for Modern Arnis since Professors death, such as his various publications on the art.
4. Dan is a good instructor.
5. When I talk to Dan in person, he is not an ego monger. He doesn't demand that anyone call him of any specific title.
6. Overall, Dan is a darned good guy.


Yes, and most relevant here perhaps are 5,6, at least to me. It's difficult for me to believe that Mr. Anderson operates from other than good intentions. His vision of how best to move the art forward includes thoughts on the use of the title Professor.

Honestly, it's a bit "needy" of us to continue to insist that that one word be resereved--that the Professor's "number be retired" forever. Still, I have to say that in my heart I have to agree that he was the Professor. I have no real opinion on Mr. Anderson's use of the term; it's a matter of one's emotional response, a matter of how closely one associates the man with that term of endearment. I loved my grandmothers but other people can say "Grandma" too for all I care, as someone else noted.

In addition, Mr. Anderson has earned the title Professor as it is usually used in the martial arts sense. Remy Presas had had it from his days in the academic world which is somewhat different. He carried it over from his university teaching days. (Dr. Barber is a Professor in this sense also--as am I.) So, the origin of the use of the title was different for Mr. Anderson and Prof. Presas.

People will judge Mr. Anderson as a whole. If he's a success in spreading Modern Arnis, he'll be Prof. Anderson. Should he fail, it won't matter--his name will be mud (though I'll still be a Super Dan fan).

As to the other point of contention, the name Modern Arnis 80--I think it's confusing to have what is neither a fully new name ("Arnis Andersona") nor the old one ("Modern Arnis") but rather something in-between. I don't especially care for the name lyrically either, and the amount of symbolism stuffed into the 8 and the 0 is a bit much for my tastes. I'm not disturbed or offended by what Mr. Anderson has done--I just don't approve of it artistically. I say, make a break or don't--this seems somewhat like waffling to me, and the confusion is evidently not limited to me alone. Again, I don't think it's wrong in any sense other than one of practicality.

We're all doing the best we can in the wake of Prof. Presas' passing. Let's all be charitable, and try to assume the best intentions of one another.

[DoctorB]

quote: Originally posted by lhommedieu
I can't believe the fuse is still sputtering.

Located on John Bishop's Kajukenbo forum - History/Who's Who in Kajukenbo:

http://www.ohiokajukenbo.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi

Professor Harry Herrera
Professor Larry Gumataotao
Professor Al Dacascos
Professor Eugene Sedeno
Professor John Leoning
Professor Sid Asuncion
Professor Carlos Bunda
Professor Doug Bunda
Professor Colleen Gragen
Professor Eric Lee
Professor Sam Allred
Professor Philip Gelinas


Originally posted by Renegade
Kenpo not Modern Arnis.

OK Guys, let me make a couple of points since this involves Kenpo/Kajukenbo, which I have trained in from white belt through 6th degree black. In 2001 I was awarded Senior Master Status for my Escrima-Kenpo-Arnis curriculum at the Gathering of Eagles, so I have some knowledge and experience in this area of the arts.

In Kajukenbo, Professor status designates a person who has attained a 9th or 10th degree ranking. The title and rank are awarded by a panel of experts in the art. The one title that no one can claim is that of Sijo - it is reserved for Adriano Emperado, alone. Since it means "founder", it can not and will not be transfered to anyone after he passes. BTW, Sijo Emperado was on the 10 man board at GOE2 that awarded me the Senior Master status and he witnessed two of my three presentations at the GOE2.

My next point deals with the FMAs and there are two systems that I know of which have multiple GMs - Doce Pares and Balintawak. Therefore, it would not be unreasonable for the titles of "Professor" or "GM" to be used within Modern Arnis context, however, the pathway for that sort of thing was never cleared by the founder who was known and refered to by both titles, interchanably. Hence we have a very clear problem of both organizational and emotional dimensions.

In the course of this thread and several others, people have expressed the view that one or the other of the title could not and should not be used out of respect for the late founder. I believe that we need to take a couple of BIG STEPS BACKWARDS and give this situation a long, hard, critical viewing! People we can not have it both ways! We can not reserve BOTH title for the late founder of Modern Arnis. This is a new day. It is time to put the grief and sense of loss aside long enough for the business of growing the art can occur. We are becoming stagnate and aguementative, rather than becominng more progressive and forward thinking.

My suggestion is to create an emeritus title of Geat Grand Master for the late founder of Modern Arnis, thereby allowing the title Grand Master to be used within the Modern Arnis context. That also will allow us to "retire" and "reserve" the titles "Founder" and "Professor" exclusively for Remy Presas. To me this makes the most sense because it is the designation of "professor" that has the very clear emotional endearment quality that is associated with one man within this art. I must also give credit where credit is due, the Great Grand Master idea came from Rocky Paswik.

Please take note that my organizational by-laws preclude me or anyone associated with the Independent Escrima-Arnis Associates from assuming the following titles, grand master or professor and our ranking system stops at 9th degree. This rule was put into effect at the founding of the organization in 1993. Therefore, I have no self-serving interest in my above proposal.

All of this continuing debate over titles has fostered another idea that I will be running past several people privately in the next couple of days. It is consist with the reasoning behind establishing the Symposium. With Professor Presas, gone, we need to meet and organize the Modern Arnis world for the future. We also need to be realistic, not everyone will agree and there will be several Modern Arnis organizations in existence. That is curreently the situation and I see no reason to believe that it will change. MA 80, WMAA, IMAF-Delaney, IMAF, Inc. (Shea/MoTTs), American Modern Arnis Asociates, Marppio and the WMAC are already in existence, so the very best thing that we could do is to meet, talk, train and arrive at a consensus about what can and should be. The choices are ours to make, I have made the first effort in that direction by organizing the first Modern Arnis Symposium. Now the burden shifts to all of you who have been so vocal on these name, rank, title and other Modern Arnis matters since the death of Professor Presas. Do you want to work cooperatively with one another, across organizational lines or do you want to continue debating endlessly over the internet?

There are 12 people who are committed to teaching at the Sympsoium, now we need people to commit to attending and participating. There are matters that need discussion, so attending and dialoguing face to face would be helpful. If anyone would like to head up a discussion group, let me know and I can arrange a room or two for that purpose.

We are not going to have what we had in the past when Professor Presas was alive. We need to step up and make this art for ourselves, as Professor often said we should. Your thoughts would be greatly appriciated, but your attendence at the Symposium would be more beneficial to the future of Modern Arnis.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

[DoctorB]

Dan,

CLEAN OUT your hotmail account - it has been 6 days since I first tried to send you a private e-mail and it has been returned 5 times - THIS IS IMPORTANT - Dan, now get busy and delete all of that trash so that new messages can get through or I will force you to drink tequila when you get to Buffalo ;-)

Jerome Barber, ED.D.

[thekuntawman]

hi, inside of my school i have a few students who are teaching classes, because they are getting close to the instructor level, so i can teach them how to become instructors.

even now, as still students of mine, i can see how one students prefers one strategy that i taught them, and another teaches the strategy that he likes. even how they hold the fighting stances, or one likes to crash through in stickfighting, and the other likes to stay to the outside, one likes empty hand fighitng, the other like to stickfight. each student learned the same style from the same teacher (me), but he walked away from the training with a preference.

when my students leave me to teach in his own place, he will say, that he is a student of mustafa gatdula's kuntaw. but he has his own way to teach it. so i might have a chris williams kuntaw in elk grove, a habib ahmad kuntaw in pakistan, mike may kuntaw in sacramento...etc. they are still mustafa gatdula's kuntaw, but the way he likes to do it, is his own. if there was a grandmaster and founder its my grandpa, but he is dead and there will never be another one. i am a follower of his kuntaw, even though i have my way to do it, and so do my students, and there students,,,,

by the way i did create my own style which is my fighting eskrima. because i have a few different teachers, i cant give all the credit to one, so i gave my eskrima its own name and i am the creater of the style.

if you still represent your teachers style, you can still give your own name to it, because its your way to do it. but as long as you are his representative, you use the title he gave you as if you are still teaching in his school. but to refuse his title and call yourself something else meant you broke away from his method.

[Dan Anderson]

Originally posted by bloodwood
If Modern Arnis 80 is a compilation of what THE Professor taught Dan, it IS Modern Arnis.

Excellent Point! I was wondering if anybody was going to say this.

The bulk of Modern Arnis 80 is what the Professor taught me but not all of it, though.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

[Dan Anderson]

Originally posted by DoctorB
Dan,

CLEAN OUT your hotmail account - it has been 6 days since I first tried to send you a private e-mail and it has been returned 5 times - THIS IS IMPORTANT - Dan, now get busy and delete all of that trash so that new messages can get through or I will force you to drink tequila when you get to Buffalo ;-)

Jerome Barber, ED.D.

I do not respond favorably to threats but the one of forced tequila drinking will get me into action. Hate the stuff!

Dan

[dearnis.com]

Enough with the titles already!! The LAST thing we need in Arnis is more titles.
Dan; I think Paul made some very good points, and I am in agreement with them. When Remy Presas awarded you the title Senior Master he gave you a distinctive (I dont know anyone else using it) title reflecting your contributions to the art. Wear that title proudly. If you are going to teach using "MA-80, Senior Master Dan Anderson's compilation of the art of Remy Presas" then so be it. Go forward and good luck!
I personally find the title of grand master distasteful; too many people with no claim (in many arts) bandy it about. Why isn't just living up to a simple title like Guro or Sensei enough?

[arnisador]

Originally posted by dearnis.com
Why isn't just living up to a simple title like Guro or Sensei enough?

This certainly deserves repeating.

[norshadow1]

Originally posted by dearnis.com
Enough with the titles already!! The LAST thing we need in Arnis is more titles.
Dan; I think Paul made some very good points, and I am in agreement with them. When Remy Presas awarded you the title Senior Master he gave you a distinctive (I dont know anyone else using it) title reflecting your contributions to the art. Wear that title proudly. If you are going to teach using "MA-80, Senior Master Dan Anderson's compilation of the art of Remy Presas" then so be it. Go forward and good luck!
I personally find the title of grand master distasteful; too many people with no claim (in many arts) bandy it about. Why isn't just living up to a simple title like Guro or Sensei enough?

Because big egos can not handle small titles, in spite of the fact that these same people almost always fail when it comes to
"...living up to a simple title like Guro or Sensei..."

Personally I find that small titles or no titles make it very easy to do your job, do it well. In time one becomes recognized by those people who understand that you did. The rewards are them genuine and easy to accept. When one has pushed ahead and grabbed big titles before they are physically and mentally ready, they are never fully satisfied. The net result is that they have to seek ever greater heights, titles and acknowledgements. They are mentally dissatisfied in spite of their outward appearence.

Lamont

[Dan Anderson]

Originally posted by PAUL
Ahhhhhhh...Here is an interesting point, but I would disagree. Dan has clearly said that MA-80 IS Modern Arnis, but it is his interpretation of what RP taught him. Yes, I know, this still sounds like his own style, but not according to Dan. Dan specifically says he is NOT grandmaster, and he has NOT created his own style. MA-80 is a cirriculum.

This is an easy mistake to make because Dan has called himself "founder" and even accepted an award for "Founder of the Year," which implies that MA-80 is it's own system. This is a prime example of what name and title confusion leads to.

I also agree that GM wouldn't be appropriate either; especially since you have explicitly stated that MA-80 is not it's own system (in that it's still Modern Arnis) but it is your cirriculum for Modern Arnis. Now if you really want MA-80 to be it's own system, then that is another thread, but I think that you and I know both know that isn't the answer either. For one, you would have to drop the "Modern Arnis" name, I would think, if it were to stand on it's own as it's own system. Otherwise you would be unfairly riding on the Modern Arnis name while confusing people in the process. Plus, it is clear when you teach your cirriculum that MA-80 is not it's own style; rather it is what you describe exactly....your ciriculum and interpretation of what Prof. Presas taught you.

I don't think that founder would be an appropriate title either. Yes, I know, I know.....you have explained many times the meaning of "founder." Regardless, when people think founder they will think that MA-80 is it's own style, which you have rightfully stated it's not. No matter how you explain it, semantics are semantics; you can't simply refer to a different definition and expect people to no longer identify the word or title for what has been generally excepted.

Since you want to hear responses publically (which I also respect) I chose to address it in this way.

Sincerely,
Paul Janulis

Big Daddy Paul,
VERY eloquently put and thanks for the public posting. I posted some time ago that I used the word curriculum incorrectly and that Modern Arnis 80 was actually a system put together by moi. Also, in a very recent post I mentioned that the bulk but not all of Modern Arnis 80 came from Remy Presas so it is ever so hairline different than the RP Modern Arnis. Personally, Paul, you have made some very good points (especially outlined in parts 1-6 - humor).

One point of disagreement for me is dropping the Modern Arnis name as part of the title. THAT would be very disrespectful to my teacher, far more than including the name and having others ticked off at me. I am quite proud of where I came from in the Filipino Martial Arts. As to people's expectations, boy am I running into that one a bit. Good luck with pacifying your girl friend.

To Everyone - I just emailed Bloodwood a private communication which pointed out, in part, that I am taking no offense from anyone but this thread has gone off the path from whether I am being disrespectful and disingenuous to now whether anyone agrees with the titles and so forth. It's like discussing something politically non-correct over a few beers...and a few more beers and so on. The volume gets louder as more beers gets consumed.

In the direct Remy Presas lineage I hold the title Senior Master proudly. Don't get me wrong. I do not dis the title BUT keep in mind that I have begun to walk my own path and in doing so I am doing things differently, even if ever so slight at first. I have moved out of the house but am keeping in communication with my family. I believe RP did the same when he formed Modern Arnis in the first place (although before anyone hits me with this I do admit he didn't call what he did Balintawak 57 - there, I beat you to it).

All for now,
Dan Anderson
:D

[bloodwood]

Dan,
The chicken s**t comes in when we start going back and forth with big words like IS, IF, BUT to make our point. I do not refer to your original thread as CS but to what it has turned in to. Many will never except certain titles, but if that's what you choose to do than stop asking and move ahead with you plans for the future. Stop trying to test the waters.
As Yoda said "there is no try, do."

[The Mist]

I belive that the bulk of Arnis practitioners will remain soberly behind the fact that you are wrong in taking the title of Proffessor for yourself. And I myself after re-reading the bulk of the posting seem to think that rather than seeking to justify your actions. You are now bordering on the stance of 'rubbing our collective noses in it' . Which is ever increase the pace, tone, and tenor of the respondents.
This further wrong action seems to further underscore the lack of judgement exhibited in the first place.
I remain calm in my knowledge of the difference between wrong and right.
I hope that your further actions will be to strengthen the art.
Thanks,
Bob Chesbro
Lakan Tatlo
PS Modern Arnis 1990-2003 and beyond :)

[Dan Anderson]

Originally posted by The Mist
And I myself after re-reading the bulk of the posting seem to think that rather than seeking to justify your actions. You are now bordering on the stance of 'rubbing our collective noses in it' . Which is ever increase the pace, tone, and tenor of the respondents.
This further wrong action seems to further underscore the lack of judgement exhibited in the first place.
I remain calm in my knowledge of the difference between wrong and right.
I hope that your further actions will be to strengthen the art.
Thanks,
Bob Chesbro
Lakan Tatlo
PS Modern Arnis 1990-2003 and beyond :)

Dear Bob,
Thanks for your take on this. My intention is neither to posture nor rub but to clarify. What started out as a query and clarification has gone beyond the original intentions. My actions will be to strengthen the art.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

[The Mist]

Thanks

[Dan Anderson]

You're welcome.
Dan

[DoctorB]

Originally posted by The Mist
I belive that the bulk of Arnis practitioners will remain soberly behind the fact that you are wrong in taking the title of Proffessor for yourself. And I myself after re-reading the bulk of the posting seem to think that rather than seeking to justify your actions. You are now bordering on the stance of 'rubbing our collective noses in it' . Which is ever increase the pace, tone, and tenor of the respondents.
This further wrong action seems to further underscore the lack of judgement exhibited in the first place.
I remain calm in my knowledge of the difference between wrong and right.
I hope that your further actions will be to strengthen the art.
Thanks,
Bob Chesbro
Lakan Tatlo
PS Modern Arnis 1990-2003 and beyond :)

Hi Bob,

I hope that you will attend the Symposium. Not only would it give you a chance to judge for yourself the strengths of Dan Anderson's abilities in Modern Arnis, but talk with him personally. And I believe that you are interested in the knife as part of your martial arts training regimen. We have two people on the program, Master Bram Frank, who will be teaching his Gunting Knife. He will be demonstrating how that instrument was founded on the principle of Modern Arnis movement. Our second instructor, Guro Dawud Muhamad, will be showing us how to integrate the Modern Arnis movements with knife to the Sayoc Kali System of knife work and possibly grappling/ground fighting.

I hope that you will be there, since the Symposium is being held in Buffalo.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

[bloodwood]

There are better ways to draw attention to yourself and your organization than posting a survey. So far, all you've done is draw negative attention. Our time would be much better spent reading about what your organization is doing, how it is growing, who is associated with it, and what you've been doing as far as seminars and camps that your organization has hosted. Up to this point all we've see is ZIP, nothing of substance, just talk. Besides, you ask for opinions and when a heavy majority are against your actions you say tuff s**t anyway. You are supposed to learn from a survey and make adjustments. All you have done is to come across arrogant and turn a lot of people off to you and your organization. I hope you got what you wanted out of this thread.
Personally. I will NEVER call you Professor. And as far as MA-80 goes, I have no problem accepting it as an organization once you start treating it like one, and acting like it is one.

Bloodwood

[The Mist]

Mr. Anderson and I have met, and talked briefly at another Buffalo event (Tim Hartmans Spring Training Camp) Which you made a brief appearance at.... see we are all one big happy family. :)

[The Mist]

I must have posted at the exact same time as bloodwood, that sort of changes my post a little.... :)

[Dan Anderson]

Originally posted by bloodwood
A.There are better ways to draw attention to yourself and your organization than posting a survey.

B.So far, all you've done is draw negative attention. Our time would be much better spent reading about what your organization is doing, how it is growing, who is associated with it, and what you've been doing as far as seminars and camps that your organization has hosted. Up to this point all we've see is ZIP, nothing of substance, just talk.

C.Besides, you ask for opinions and when a heavy majority are against your actions you say tuff s**t anyway. You are supposed to learn from a survey and make adjustments.

D.All you have done is to come across arrogant and turn a lot of people off to you and your organization. I hope you got what you wanted out of this thread.

E.Personally. I will NEVER call you Professor.

F.And as far as MA-80 goes, I have no problem accepting it as an organization once you start treating it like one, and acting like it is one.

Bloodwood

Bloodwood,
A. I never posted the survey to draw attention to myself in the first place. Your assumption is wrong.

B. Actually, the majority of it has not been negative. There are individuals who are in disagreement with me and that is fine. I've never had the luxury of having everybody in agreement with me in the past and done't expect to in the future. As to zip and nothing of substance, only in the way of organized seminars. I have written and published a couple of books on the subject which is more than most have done and have represented my style on both coasts in the last year.

C. I made a survey to gain information and verify or refute a claim made, not to make adjustments because of the incoming data.

D. I got the data I needed/wanted from this thread.

E. I never asked ANYONE to call me such outside of my own personal students. I am not sending out this request, ultimatum or what have you for people to call me this or that.

F. It is a style. The organization, at the time of this writing is Dan Anderson Karate School. If I decide to make Modern Arnis 80 an organizational thing I will do so and will announce it.

I am sorry that you have taken offense to this thread but it contained questions I wanted to ask.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

[bloodwood]

Thanks for the clear statements.
Now I'm off this thread.

Bloodwood :asian:

[Sifu DangeRuss]

Professor Dan...

More power to you. I recall making the pilgrimmage down to Portland to train with you and Sifu Fred King in the early 80's. You've certainly been swingin' sticks as long or longer than many who stake the claim. Furthermore, you were always a gentleman who practiced what he preached. 'cides...I kinda like the image of you with the little square cap with the tassle hangin' down over your eyes and the voluminous satin robe with the big red "S" on the front.

Your outstanding examples of sportsmanship and stressing the need to have fun, even in competition was a very profound motivation in the manner in which I have always strived to compete.

Wear the title well...

[Cruentus]

I don't think that anyone is disputing the use of the Professor Title for Karate; the issue is the use of the title in Modern Arnis. If you don't train in Modern Arnis regularly, or if you didn't train often with Professor Presas, then please understand that you won't understand the significance that the title "Professor" represents to the Modern Arnis community.

[Dan Anderson]

Dear All,

I have been in a number of discussions with others and I am alienating a number of those who have been friends with me by using the Professor title in Modern Arnis 80.

My intention is not:

A. to alienate my friends

B. to "replace" Remy Presas

C. to create an exalted status for myself

I look at the title as I have stated in the past posts of this thread, however, more individuals are getting more and more upset and I am now in the prospect of losing friends over it.

Therefore, I hereby forego the use of the title Professor as regards Modern Arnis & Modern Arnis 80.

Thanks for all the input.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

[The Mist]

Well Done!

[norshadow1]

Originally posted by Dan Anderson
Dear All,

I have been in a number of discussions with others and I am alienating a number of those who have been friends with me by using the Professor title in Modern Arnis 80.

My intention is not:

A. to alienate my friends

B. to "replace" Remy Presas

C. to create an exalted status for myself

I look at the title as I have stated in the past posts of this thread, however, more individuals are getting more and more upset and I am now in the prospect of losing friends over it.

Therefore, I hereby forego the use of the title Professor as regards Modern Arnis & Modern Arnis 80.

Thanks for all the input.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

Now if we could get some others to step back from some similar titles and considerations in Modern Arnis!

Lamont

[David Hoffman]

This reminds me of a time, I think it was 1989, I was sponsoring a seminar with Professor and Professor Wally Jay. It was a two week instructor training session and Professor Jay came out early so as to be able to rest before teaching and to spend some time with Professor who taught first. We were in the kitchen of my house on Mason Street. They were both standing by the refrigerator. I said, “Professor?” They both turned automatically to look at me and said “Yes?” at exactly the same time. Then they looked at each other, then we all smiled.

Professor always had me refer to his title as a “term of affection from his students” in anything he asked me to write. Professor Jay uses the title in its “martial arts” connotation as in his art, and in his teachers art before him, it was used as an official title. Professor did not use the title as such, preferring to be called “Founder and President” as well as “Father of Modern Arnis.” When Professor and I spent two weeks on holiday in Jamaica, the resort staff picked up on this use. They all called him. “PRO-fessor” with a rhythmic lilt, like rap. I recall they paid him a huge compliment, “PRO-fessor Can dance!” They said. (Clearly I couldn’t.)

While very unassuming in private, Professor always found titles and big ego’s amusing, Professor was very respectful, often publicly introducing people along with their professional titles. Thus Randi Schea, his student, was always “Doctor Randi,” Another example was Lee Lowery. The title, “Sifu”, was from him Kenpo, not Arnis, but Professor always called him “Sifu Lee.” In the same way Dan was not Goru Dan, But SuperDan! Later both received the Professor of Martial Arts moniker independently. In their case, as in Professor Jay’s, the moniker is used as a martial arts title. If we are to use the English title Professor, as is used in academia to denote a master level teacher, certainly both Lee and Dan qualify.

To me, as to many others it seems, Professor was “The” Professor. I certainly understand the emotions involved, all come from the love of a great teacher who has left us. But please remember that the title was a term of endearment, carried over from his days teaching at university in Manila, but never a Martial arts title or Modern Arnis title. Neither was the title sacred, Professor would have taken more pride in the association of the title Professor with higher education as he was very respectful of academia and those who had the discipline to achieve degrees. Founder of Modern Arnis, Father of Modern Arnis, these are specific titles that I can only associate with Professor. But before you jump on Dan for his use of founder I can also recall that a few other people gave their own name to their conception of Modern Arnis. This never seemed to bother Professor, he understood that some people had their own following to cultivate and their own living to make. I know first hand that Professor preferred people to work through the Federation, and Dan in particular was one of those he chose to help lead the Federation. So, to me, it is fair and acurate to say that Professor would have preferred that Dan assume his rightful place in the Federation. Dan knows I feel this way and that Professor wanted him involved with the future of his art and legacy. But with that said, may I also point out that I don’t think that Professor would have been that bothered that Dan chose to be independent. There are several senior people in Modern Arnis who had their own following and organizations as well. Professor allowed, and sometimes even encouraged this, if it was important to the instructor involved. The Datu title, as Professor used it in Modern Arnis, was generally reserved for those with their own “tribe” within the family of Modern Arnis. Professor never offered titles to exclude others, each was fit to the individual. If the shoe fit type of thing.

In my heart I believe Professor would see us all as being one family and having much in common, despite our unique and individual egos and opinions. After all, out of the billions of souls on this planet, how many face off with rattan sticks and learned from “The” Professor, who’s memory we now cherish and seek to protect! Even if we are thousands, we are still a small tribe. Even if we all argue, each with the other, how many outsiders would even understand what we were even talking about? I expect if I had sponsored a seminar for Dan some years ago or recently, I would introduce him as Professor Dan Anderson as I also knew him as such. If someone asked me, “Is this The Professor of whom I’ve heard, I would say, “No, one of his senior students who has attained the title of Professor as used in the Martial Arts.”

[Cruentus]

To me, as to many others it seems, Professor was “The” Professor. I certainly understand the emotions involved, all come from the love of a great teacher who has left us. But please remember that the title was a term of endearment, carried over from his days teaching at university in Manila, but never a Martial arts title or Modern Arnis title.

I agree with this. Professor was "THE" Professor, and it was a term of endearment that we all cherish the memory of. So how could any of us who are old students of "THE" Professor comfortably call someone else by that title in the "Modern Arnis" sense? It would be like your dad dying, and a new guy moving in and demanding that you call him "Dad." It just doesn't set well in the stomach.

This is why I think that it was the respectful thing, and the right thing for Dan to decide NOT to use the Professor title in the "Modern Arnis" sense. It actually has nothing to do with skill; most of us aren't ready, and never will be ready to call anyone else "Professor" on the Modern Arnis floor. Dan understood this, as far as I know, and he chose to respectfully retire that title.

I think that the respectful thing for all of us to do in modern arnis, regardless of chosen organization or "path," would be to retire the "Professor" title.

Now although this is my opinion, understand that I am not going to hate someone, nor am I'm not going to lie awake at night if someone in Modern Arnis decides to strut around using the Professor title, but that doesn't mean that doing so would be the right thing to do, either.

:cool:
PAUL

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Not to be rude, but this thread ended back in March.

[arnisador]

A nice and informative post Mr. Hoffman, and the little anecdotes are always welcome--now they're written down! I appreciate the distinctions you're making between the various uses of the 'professor' title.

[Dan Anderson]

This thread ended in March (and not to be rude, myself) but it did not end with a totally sweet taste left in my mouth.

I dropped the in public speaking/signing use of Professor as regards Modern Arnis as it was pissing people off and creating a distance between me and others. I am not in the habit of being exclusive in Modern Arnis but being inclusive. RP left me with the words, "Danny, get involved." and in doing so, I don't think that means to exclude others.

I use the term Professor in my school for both karate and Modern Arnis 80. Let there be no doubt about that. My students call me nothing but Professor. It is also on my website. I do not expect anyone outside my school to call me Professor because of all the emotional issues listed out before in this thread and attachments of the title to Remy Presas to his students and so on.

An illustration of this is best recounted by a conversation Jaye Spiro had on the subject:

Jaye: "Dan, I'm not going to call you Professor."
Me: "Jaye, I never asked that you do."

That says it all.

As to how I feel about it, my opinion has not changed one bit since the first post in this thread.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

[David Hoffman]

Hello again Professor Dan.

It's been some time since we last communicated. Sorry I didn't know this "thread" had finished as it did not appear locked. I don't get to check this forum that often so it was new to me. I am so glad to see that you are so active in this new age of Modern Arnis.

I hope we can all take a moment to consider that if we all feel so passionate about different things related to Modern Arnis and The Professor, it is because we all have so much love for the man and the art. This is something which should unite us, not cause so many divisions! There is room in the world for all of us and our individual interpretations of Professor's legacy. I do think there has to be more tolerance and common ground amongst all the individual agendas and organizations than is revealed on the forums. There is much more to unite us than divide us!

I thought to add my voice to this thread not to kick up any emotions, but rather, to note that as I've known you since "back in the day" I was also aware that you were called Professor, long before it was an issue and while our friend and teacher was still with us. You do credit to Professor's memory and wishes by remaining involved, brother Dan. And no, we do not all have to agree with each other on every point. The important thing is that we continue to pursue spreading the art and continuing our teachers legacy as we each interpret it.

One thing I do beleive in strongly: Professor would have wanted us, all of us, to spend more time and effort in uniteing within the Modern Arnis family, and far, far less time on our differences of opinion. The who is who seems to be much too big of a general issue. We all know who we are. We have only to look in the mirror and at those around us. Each persons history with Professor is unique to them. Each persons rank, title, skill, knowledge, etc. is also unique, and reflects on them personally. A title or rank, or just attendance at one seminar, includes each of us in Modern Arnis and does nothing to exclude anyone. As my good friend Datu Dieter has said: " Let each one cook his own soup." If our representations are honest and historically accurate, then they are valid and true. Time and history will be our judge and nothing is written in stone.

I suggest we all put our emotions in check and look to all the wonderfull things that unite us in Modern Arnis. We are all first generation students of The Professor and all of our views, positions and histories has great meaning and truth within our small family. When compared to the sun does not the moon look pale and dim? Yet our new day is without the light of our teacher, and the moon and the stars are now our day. We each of us bring Professor's light to this new day, wether we studied for one year or for over 20.

Now that we are in this new age for the art, many people have come forward with their personal history with the art and Professor. Many I had thought lost, as for whatever reason they were not "active" for some or many years. Each and everone has something to share with all of us, and I strongly welcome them all. I don't think it necessary to examine their resume, just to accept their contribution.


Mabuhay ang Modern Arnis!

David

[Bob Hubbard]

Well said sir, well said.

:asian:

[Dan Anderson]

David,

Thanks for the kind words. There was one interesting thing about the whole Professor issue which was brought to light just recently. Tim and I were talking about it and he told me that it was thoroughly gone over a year prior to my bringing up the subject regarding Lisa McManus wearing the same title. I need to find the thread for that one. I guess I stirred the ashes of that one and the flames roared once more.

As to uniting, I have actually been quite active in attempting to handle brush fires between several senior practitioners of our art in the last year or so. I am a current member of the WMAA and have supported the camps and activities of that org. I just, within the last week, got in communication with Dr. Shea and am working on attending one of the upcoming IMAF camps. I got sorted out the difficulties between Kelly Worden and I and he and I are on an even par. Bram and I have been buds for some time and Jerome and I are recent friends. You and I have always gotten along.

An interesting thing to point out here, is Prof's last instructions to me were, Danny, get involved.

He never said with who. More importantly, he never said with who not to get involved with as well.

There couldn't be more different personalitites as Tim, Kelly, Randi, you, Bram, Jerome, Rocky, me, Jeff and (insert your choice of name here). I am in communication with all but Jeff and that is because I only met him at the funeral and our paths don't cross, not because I exclude him. Just with the above named, uniting won't happen. Look at the personalities.

But it doesn't mean that all of us, each in our own way, shouldn't help push the art none of us would have had in the first place had it not been for the old man.

Yours,
Dan

[DoctorB]

Originally posted by Dan Anderson
David,

An interesting thing to point out here, is Prof's last instructions to me were, Danny, get involved.

He never said with who. More importantly, he never said with who not to get involved with as well.

There couldn't be more different personalitites as Tim, Kelly, Randi, you, Bram, Jerome, Rocky, me, Jeff and (insert your choice of name here). I am in communication with all but Jeff and that is because I only met him at the funeral and our paths don't cross, not because I exclude him. Just with the above named, uniting won't happen. Look at the personalities.

But it doesn't mean that all of us, each in our own way, shouldn't help push the art none of us would have had in the first place had it not been for the old man.

Yours,
Dan

My point in organizing the Symposium was right along these same lines of reasoning. It is also true that I am an advocate of skill being the determinor of rank, but rank should NEVER take the place of good common sense and friendship. Nor should rank be confused with learning and teaching ability. I am one of the people who have suggested that the title is too often confused with the man in Modern Arnis. This is a problem that will take care of itself over time.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.