Master

[theneuhauser]

I was just wondering how you all use the term "master" and what you think of it's use.
Personally, i think its innappropriate.

[jfarnsworth]

The term master should be reserved for only a very select few individuals out there. I wouldn't and don't use it loosely whatsoever. It'll be interesting to see what others think.

[SRyuFighter]

I agree jfarnsworth I think that there are very few people deserving of the title Master. For it is a personal belief that you can always improve.

[Nightingale]

I would use it to describe certain individuals. For example, I would say that Larry Tatum is a master of Kenpo. However, I would not address anyone as "master." I will say "yes, sir" and I address my instructors by "Mr. (lastname)"

You can be a master of an art, but you cannot be a master of another person, so I will never say "yes, master" to a martial arts instructor.

[jeffkyle]

I also agree with the fact that "master" should be reserved for only a select few. And I would have to see it to believe it too.

[Abbax8]

Originally posted by nightingale8472
I would use it to describe certain individuals. For example, I would say that Larry Tatum is a master of Kenpo. However, I would not address anyone as "master." I will say "yes, sir" and I address my instructors by "Mr. (lastname)"

You can be a master of an art, but you cannot be a master of another person, so I will never say "yes, master" to a martial arts instructor.

I agree. In judo we don't address anyone as Master. We use Mr. or Mrs. or Sensei or Sir or depending on the teacher, and the age of the student, Jan , Frank or Dave.

Peace
Dennis

[KickChick]

A first-degree black belt in TKD signifies that the holder of such rank is accomplished enough in the basics to begin serious training. Even second- and third-degree black belts signify only levels of skill in advanced training, not mastery.
In Korea, you must possess a fourth-degree black belt to be considered an instructor, and you must have a fifth-degree black belt to be considered a master instructor in most American schools its 4th degree to be considered Master .... all it means is the instructor has "mastered" the style. Declared master status represents no elevation to demigod status. It does not mean learning stops. Masters are qualified to represent the style,..... to teach it without limit, speak for it, and guide their own personal training in directions they wish to go. The use of the title "Master" is merely a formality..."Sir" Ma,am" or "Sah Bum Nihm" is used for ordinary interaction. (that is in TKD .... most styles classify ranks differently)
There is alot of confusion with the use of titles within the martial arts community. Each martial art and organization uses titles in a different manner, and usually a committee/union has establishes a policy for the use of titles within their organization to provide for their consistent use. The policy is consistent with the use within the traditional international martial arts community, but many of these unions and organizations/federations take it upon themselves to modify and include other titles where appropriate

[Cthulhu]

I don't believe anyone should call themselves 'master', as in "How do you do, I'm Master So-and-so". It's an honorific bestowed onto you by others, not by yourself.

Cthulhu

[karatekid1975]

When I was in TSD, my instructor was/is a 4th Dan, which is "master" level. But he wouldn't let anyone call him Master. B. He would always introduce himself has Mr. B. I called him "master" one day, and he gave me a "look" and said "Mr is fine." I agreed.

[Hollywood1340]

As a student of TKD myself, my instructor is Master Taylor. People seem to have this notion about the title. It's not his status as his person, it's his rank, and a sign of honor. He doesn't force it on anyone, if you chose not to, then you don't have to, Mister Taylor is fine. A master who FORCES students to call him "Master" definantly is not deserving of the rank. Again, it's rank and in this case earned. I have no problem calling him "Master Taylor'. At fifth dan he is a "Master Instructor" hence the title. We dont' call our first and second dans "Master." Who knows, maybe it's a Korean thing. I know in Judo we have no "Master" Ranks, simply Sensei, or teacher. That's fine with me too. I am a student and will conduct my self as such. (Interesting side not, I'm just a Kyu in Judo. I'm not officialy a student until I reach my first dan rank. Then I'm serious enough to become a student. So I'm training right now to BE a student. I think that's pretty cool, keeps us Kyu's in our place. They say "Know one knows more then a green belt", but I still have much to learn)
Just my $0.02
"Kenpo Gear-Show Some Respect"

[MartialArtist]

A select few are masters

But nobody has mastered anything, including the art

[Master of Blades]

So does that mean I have to change my name? :rolleyes:

[jfarnsworth]

Originally posted by Master of Blades
So does that mean I have to change my name? :rolleyes:


Yeah to just blades!:rofl: Have you been reading the other thread on master arts??

[Rich Parsons]

I was in a class once where the instructor had/has the title of Master. I called him Mr "Smith". The rest of the students were concerned I was showing disrespect to the instructor. The Instructor had no problem with sir or Mr. "Smith".

I also had an instructor in college, that was working on his PHD. He inssited that all the students call him Dr. "Smith". I knew he was not a PHD and called him Mr. "Smith". I did have some problems with him and the subjective protions of the class for grading. I just asked him if he would mind if I asked the Chairman of the department to review my papers and tests and see what grade(s) I would receive then.

So there are A$$-holes in anyting you do out there.

Train Well

[SRyuFighter]

I recently went to a friends dojo to watch him practice before going to his house to hang out. He and the rest of the class called their instructor Master. I didn't find this odd, it was just what they chose to call him. But then later on my friend said "Mr. Smith could you help me with this kick" and he was yelled at. I found this to be out of line, especially since he is only a white belt. What do you all think?

[Master of Blades]

Originally posted by jfarnsworth
Yeah to just blades!:rofl: Have you been reading the other thread on master arts??

Yeah I have.......But I think everyone is just repeating themselves so Im not bothered to get involved :shrug:

On another note, Blades aint bad for a nickname.....But Master of Blades is just too damn cool. And M.O.B is a heck of a nickname :rolleyes:

[SRyuFighter]

The more I think about it I do not think that anyone is deserving of the title Master. You can always improve.

[tshadowchaser]

for myslef I address the head of my system as Master to show respect for the mastery of the system he has and has been willing to share.
My student and I have an agreement they will not address me as master, sensie, or any title other than Leopard. If they do they do 100,200,400,800 pushups or situp depending on my mood and if someone has screwed up befor durring the day.
The day I use the term for myslf I will be long gone from this earth and then there will be someone/thing much more powerful and knowledgeable than me that deserves the title.

[theneuhauser]

the idea for this post had been an ongoing issue for me for years. it was due to the use of the term "sifu" in chinese disciplines. i was told that sifu means "master" in english, and in kung fu movies, the dubbing or the subtitles would use the english term master as well, so i refused to call anyone sifu. why would i call anybody my master? especially someone who i pay training fees to? more recently however, i began studying the chinese language, and was surprised to find out that sifu is a term that one uses to acknowledge somebody's high level of skill, such as a master technician here in the states. now i feel silly for being bullheaded about the issue, it was really just my own ignorance.

[Master of Blades]

Originally posted by SRyuFighter
The more I think about it I do not think that anyone is deserving of the title Master. You can always improve.

The more of this thread I read the more Im annoyed about my name :shrug:

[chufeng]

Then change it to "Really OK with Blades."
:rofl:
chufeng

[Matt Stone]

There is no one, and I really mean no one in any martial arts genre, discipline or style, that warrants the title "master."

Ever.

The ones that would insist on being called that are most certainly unworthy of such a title.

The ones that would be worthy of such a title, would never allow themselves to be referred to in that manner, in person or otherwise.

I once heard a saying that "a certain test to determine your worthiness for sainthood is simply that, if you can conceive of yourself as one, you have more work to do."

Same thing goes here.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

[fringe_dweller]

I think the whole concept of "Master ***" is very similar to the whole debate over bowing. It's all a matter of what the context is that it is being referred to in. What's right to me may be wrong to you. When a student attains a blackbelt in our system they are referred to as Sir *** or Maam *** by all students or instructors - just as a respectful thing since they have put in the time and effort. The only person called Master is our the Chief Instructor of our gyms - and that seems to be more of something which is imposed on the students via the senior bbs. Once again it is done to show our respect to the man who has made the organisation what it is today and without whom none of us would be where we are.

It would be interesting to see the differing views based on art types - ie KMA, CMA, FMA etc

Respectfully,

[white belt]

I recognize the term "Master" as a word equivalent to "Master's Degree". Plain and simple. It has no religious connotation to me. I don't think of "Igor" groveling to Baron Von Frankenstein. :) I don't think of "Renfield" referring to Dracula. :) No ultimate power. I look at "Assistant Instructor" as an Associates Degree. An "Instructor" to me is a Bachelors Degree. "Master Instructor" means Masters Degree. "Grand Master" means P.H.D. to me. Plain people who excel at various levels in their choice of endeavor.

My "Master Instructor" was promoted to "Grand Master" one day. How did I find out? I looked in the new phone book delivered to my home. In the phone book ad. he was listed as "9th Dan Grand Master". I congratulated him when seeing him next and asked when it happened. He replied "Oh, a few months ago". I informed the other students ASAP. They all had a rare opportunity to congratulate him after so many instances where he had congratulated them for their achievements. I then taught all the students how to say "Kwan Chang Nim", Korean for Grand Master.
Outside of the DoJang "Mister" is fine to him.

I have seen others in TKD, and various other systems, who could use a little humility when rank comes along. They inspire threads such as these.

white belt

[Despairbear]

I am very selective about who I would consiter a master I have never met one. I woudl tenitevly say there are as many as 10 masters ever, perhaps as few as 4.




Despair Bear

[Jay Bell]

I think the term 'master' is grossly over-used. Just pull up the yellow pages under "Karate" and see for yourself...

I think a lot of this has to do with the western ego. People need to be fed. If you look in Japanese culture, Shihan (what we view as "Master") is broken down into "Model Teacher". Nothing of mastery in the title...yet in the idea of a Shihan, that's who they are.

Just like 'expert', I don't believe there is anything such as a Master. When we study under extraordinary individuals, we often tag them as masters...but speaking to them...how many of them agree?

How many computer experts do you know? How many are truly experts? (answer is none..you can never learn it all)

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by Jay Bell
I think a lot of this has to do with the western ego. People need to be fed. If you look in Japanese culture, Shihan (what we view as "Master") is broken down into "Model Teacher". Nothing of mastery in the title...yet in the idea of a Shihan, that's who they are.

Important point to remember here - while in Japan there are titles such as shihan, hanshi, kyoshi and renshi, they are never used as a form of address! You may refer to someone in writing with those titles, but you would never call someone "Shihan/Hanshi/Kyoshi/Renshi So-and-so." Sensei is just fine, and is a form of address common not only to martial arts, but to school teachers, tutors, doctors, dentists and attorneys... Don't even get me started on the imaginary title of soke... :angry:


Just like 'expert', I don't believe there is anything such as a Master. When we study under extraordinary individuals, we often tag them as masters...but speaking to them...how many of them agree?

And I think that is the whole point. The only schools I know of that routinely make use of the title "master" are Korean schools, and bad schools of other national origins... Everytime I have walked into a school where the teacher was advertised as "Master So-and-so," or met someone who said "I'm Master So-and-so," the experience ended badly (usually with the revelation that the so-called master was far from being worthy of such a title). I am not going to address the Korean martial arts usage of the term - I have never studied anything with a Korean origin, and I don't want to misrepresent nor insult anyone who has. Suffice it to say that it is about even money whether "master" is appropriate or not when dealing with Korean martial arts "masters..."


How many computer experts do you know? How many are truly experts? (answer is none..you can never learn it all)

The only "computer experts" I have run into were the same people everyone warned me against letting anywhere near my computer... :D

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

[Jay Bell]

Important point to remember here - while in Japan there are titles such as shihan, hanshi, kyoshi and renshi, they are never used as a form of address! You may refer to someone in writing with those titles, but you would never call someone "Shihan/Hanshi/Kyoshi/Renshi So-and-so." Sensei is just fine, and is a form of address common not only to martial arts, but to school teachers, tutors, doctors, dentists and attorneys... Don't even get me started on the imaginary title of soke...

Very true...

Sensei is commonly seen as 'teacher'...in our straight-forward and generic language, that's pretty accurate. It's more "One who has gone before".

However...in reference to Soke, it is a real title. Anytime someone is handed something as the head of a part of a lineage, even in business, the term is used. Many Koryu Bujutsu schools use this term.

[Matt Stone]

There was a post on E-budo a while back, I think by Guy Powers, of a link to a report written by a Japanese man on the word soke.

I understood the report to imply that the word has very little actual use in Japan, and is mostly confined to recent years... Most Japanese also, from what I understand, have no idea what the word means...

Also, outside of Hatsumi, I don't know of any "famous" (not that that qualifies anything, but being from a CMA primarily I don't know too many JMA names) heads of systems that use the term...

Whatever.

Its use in the US has been totally bogus from what I have seen. There is only one American that I know of who has a legitimate claim to that title (his name escapes me right now, but he is a koryu teacher of a sword and jujutsu style, I think), and far too many that have miraculously been granted that title by other organizations.

Personally, I think American styles (i.e. style practiced and taught by Americans in America) should teach the terms to their students properly or dispose of them entirely. I believe the cultural heritage of an art should go along with it, but like all things traditional, when the tradition becomes a hindrance to the style, it should be done away with. Since most Americans have little interest in learning other languages (so it seems, anyway; hell, most folks can't even use English all that well, much less a foreign tongue...), I would rather lose that part of my art than have it cheapened by the language's misuse. I point to examples of pseudo-Japanese arts taught by a person using the title sifu, and other such combinations...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

[Jay Bell]

Agreed! I think it's rediculous (outside of Angier sensei) for any westerner to use the term Soke. Unless you have been handed a ryuha line from Japan, you are not a Soke. Yet many "headmasters" do this to sound more traditional.

I believe the gentleman you're referring to is Don Angier, Soke of Yanagi ryu Aiki Bugei.

Katori Shinto ryu, Asayama Ichiden ryu, Daito ryu (Kondo sensei being the Soke-dairi), Kukishinden Tenshin Hyoho and many others outside of Hatsumi sensei's spectrum use the term. It needs to be noted though, that some lineages have the martial side of the ryuha headed by the Shihanke...while the Soke is reserved for heading religous ceremonies.

[white belt]

The title "Master Instructor" seems to cause people to think that someone is claiming the lessons are over or something. Any "Master" who thinks that is no Master. A Master title is an indication of a high level of acheivement. Not that they know all. Here is where a lot of the confusion lies. A Master Carpenter is always learning new innovations as technology evolves. So too a Master in MA. There are plenty of fakes who posture and egotistical bullys and I recognize that. But it still does not diminish the existence of someone who bears the title in a respectable manner. If someone has a problem with acknowledging an accredited Master, that displays care and humility towards others with good manners, then may be the potential students "cup is full". Not vice versa. In simple terms, maybe their personal ego won't allow someone else to be acknowledged in a teacher's role. Who then is the "know it all"?

Spreading happiness everywhere,
:)
white belt

[Matt Stone]

Yes, Mr. Angier is the person I was speaking of...

I hope to be starting up Shinto Muso-ryu Jo soon (fingers, toes and eyes are crossed!), so I will likely learn more of the koryu terminology through that. Thanks for the education!


Originally posted by white belt

A Master Carpenter is always learning new innovations as technology evolves. So too a Master in MA.

You are dead on the money. But a master carpenter doesn't go around the construction site making people call him "Master Bob."

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

[white belt]

Good point! My GM does not demand it for himself, the students uphold that etiqutte for him. My students uphold the title "Instructor" for me by calling me such. I don't demand it. I am not their "Boss". As in "Bob is the Boss". "How we doin' Boss?", etc. :)

My "cup" overfloweth, :):):)
white belt

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by white belt
Good point! My GM does not demand it for himself, the students uphold that etiqutte for him.

Their respect for etiquette is admirable. Don't take my comments to mean that I am dismissing everything entirely... I know the Korean styles are big on the whole "master" title. The style(s) I studied isn't (aren't). Good for them for having such discipline.


My students uphold the title "Instructor" for me by calling me such. I don't demand it. I am not their "Boss". As in "Bob is the Boss". "How we doin' Boss?", etc. :)

So they call you "Instructor Bill?" Or just "Mister?" I'm curious...

When I was in Japan, I insisted that the students not refer to me by anything other than my first name. Never worked. Even though they were, to a single person, older than I am, they all insisted on calling me sensei. Even when I informed them that by their language, culture and etiquette it was inappropriate for them to use that term, they simply bit their lip, sucked in air through their teeth and said "yes, but you are our sensei in budo, so we will use it anyway."

There just is no winning sometimes... :confused:

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

[white belt]

Yes, I am called Instructor "Bill" in the DoJang. Sometimes just "Bill". Outside the DoJang "Bill", when addressing me.


Here is one example displaying my views and my detractors:

I went to a tournament last year, wearing a suit and tie, and was introduced to a newly appointed "Master" (caucasian) and later went to ask him a passing question. He firmly looked at me when I said his name and he said, in a booming voice, "THAT'S MASTER SUCH AND SUCH!" :) I politely said "excuse me" and ignored him the rest of the gathering. He did not know my rank and even if I were a white belt, that was not a good exchange.

On the flipside I have had 8th and 9th Dans introduce a 4th or 5th Dan to me as "Master such and such". A higher rank introducing a lower rank with "Master" out of respect for his personal development thus far. The aforementioned "newly appointed Master" must have called in "sick" the day that particular etiqutte was shared. :)

Yilquan 1, if you move as quickly across the floor as you do through these threads, good luck to your sparring partners!

white belt

[SRyuFighter]

Thats kind of cool that they call you instructor bill.

[Jay Bell]

I hope to be starting up Shinto Muso-ryu Jo soon (fingers, toes and eyes are crossed!), so I will likely learn more of the koryu terminology through that. Thanks for the education!

Congratulations! I trained briefly in Shinto Muso ryu with Chuck Clark here in Tempe. Unfortunately time and money won out and I only worked on the Seta Gata. It's truly a wonderful koryu.

It's wonderful how the 'hombu' work. A handful of Menkyo Kaidensha all sharing in teaching. When one teaches, the others attend. Very humble! The previous Soke did not pass the ryuha on, yet passed on three (i believe?) menkyo kaiden.

What flavor might you be studying?

[Matt Stone]

With luck, I will be training under Phil Relnick in Lynnwood... I have an "interview" of sorts to meet him and let him get to know me tomorrow evening. His dojo is private, so he screens all who come a-knockin'.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by white belt
Yilquan 1, if you move as quickly across the floor as you do through these threads, good luck to your sparring partners!

Nah. I have what I call the "garbage disposal" approach to fighting...

I am harmless. I sit there, everybody knows I'm there, I get used for what I can do for people, and everybody is happy.

But, stick an offending limb into it, and I will return the bloody stump to the ne'er-do-well for having had the audacity to approach someone as fat, old, broken and unoffensive as myself with malicious intent... :D

Have a great day!

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

[Jay Bell]

With luck, I will be training under Phil Relnick in Lynnwood... I have an "interview" of sorts to meet him and let him get to know me tomorrow evening. His dojo is private, so he screens all who come a-knockin'.

Very cool. The group that I was with was under Relnick sensei as well. Unfortunately, I never had the opportunity to meet with him during one of his seminars down here.

He is also a Menkyo Kaiden of Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto ryu as well as Shinto Muso ryu...

Good luck with the meeting. I've never heard a cross thing of the man..

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1
Important point to remember here - while in Japan there are titles such as shihan, hanshi, kyoshi and renshi, they are never used as a form of address! You may refer to someone in writing with those titles, but you would never call someone "Shihan/Hanshi/Kyoshi/Renshi So-and-so." Sensei is just fine, and is a form of address common not only to martial arts, but to school teachers, tutors, doctors, dentists and attorneys... Don't even get me started on the imaginary title of soke... :angry:



And I think that is the whole point. The only schools I know of that routinely make use of the title "master" are Korean schools, and bad schools of other national origins... Everytime I have walked into a school where the teacher was advertised as "Master So-and-so," or met someone who said "I'm Master So-and-so," the experience ended badly (usually with the revelation that the so-called master was far from being worthy of such a title). I am not going to address the Korean martial arts usage of the term - I have never studied anything with a Korean origin, and I don't want to misrepresent nor insult anyone who has. Suffice it to say that it is about even money whether "master" is appropriate or not when dealing with Korean martial arts "masters..."



The only "computer experts" I have run into were the same people everyone warned me against letting anywhere near my computer... :D

Gambarimasu.
:asian:
In the Korean arts, 9th degree is referred as Grand Master. But GM is merely a title, like doctor, and every GM I met never considered themselves as mastering the art. Actually, they do the opposite, saying that nobody can master the art.

[Master of Blades]

Originally posted by chufeng
Then change it to "Really OK with Blades."
:rofl:
chufeng

You know what, I might just take you up on that :rolleyes:

[jfarnsworth]

Originally posted by Master of Blades
You know what, I might just take you up on that :rolleyes:

How about "The martial artist formerly known as The Master of Blades". :shrug: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Master of Blades]

Originally posted by jfarnsworth
How about "The martial artist formerly known as The Master of Blades". :shrug: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Thats not bad either..........I'm still thinking I should have put a "The" at the beginning of my name is its

THE Master Of Blades

:D

[fringe_dweller]

What about GM Blade?

Respectfully,

[Johnathan Napalm]

Safety Blade!

[Master of Blades]

All good.......anymore suggestions? :rolleyes:

:asian:

[SRyuFighter]

Seriousily Sharp Blades

[Master of Blades]

Originally posted by SRyuFighter
Seriousily Sharp Blades

Alright if I get a good one....I will change my name lol. Cuz some of these are just too cool :D

[Kiz Bell]

Jack of all blades, Master of none.

[fringe_dweller]

Originally posted by Kiz Bell
Jack of all blades, Master of none.

Kiz you rock my world.

For those of you who remember the early 80's - "Bladerunner"

[Master of Blades]

Originally posted by Kiz Bell
Jack of all blades, Master of none.

Are you questioning my Masterdom? :shrug:

:p

[jfarnsworth]

Originally posted by Master of Blades
Are you questioning my Masterdom? :shrug:

:p

Yep!!! :rofl:

[D.Cobb]

When I first met my instructor, he said, "Hi my name is Frank."

After training at the school for a while, and wondering who the mysterious 'Master Monea' that the bbs all spoke about was, I found out that they were the same man.

I asked him how he should be refered to and he said, whatever makes you feel comfortable. In class he is always senseii. If I wish to introduce someone or ask, what seems to be, a difficult question, he is Master. If we meet whilst sociallising, he is either Frank, or Sir.

His official rank is Master. All of the above terms are my choice.

--Dave

:asian:

[Matt Stone]

I suppose my issue with the title "master" is with the folks that force its use on others... "Hi, I'm Master Bob."

It is a pet peeve of mine when folks that are terminally monolingual pretend to a) know the terms they are using in their real use and context, b) know how to pronounce the terms, and c) be able to use them however they want without any degree of responsibility. When I see folks that refer to themselves as "Shihan roku-dan Soke Grandmaster," and they pronounce it like "shee-han (not hahn) rokoo-dan (not dahn) sokee (instead of sokay)," I just cringe. To quote another MT member from another thread, their "ignorance causes me physical pain."

So when I run into the questionable folks that tell their students "you will call me X," I wince at the teacher's presumption and the student's gullibility. This is the root of my problem with the term "master."

Dave's example is tolerable, though I have to admit I would still have trouble referring to his teacher as "master." Sensei, fine. Mister, no worries. Master? Only if he is 6 years old... :D

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

[Master of Blades]

Originally posted by jfarnsworth
Yep!!! :rofl:

:o

[stone_dragone]

Personal thoughts on the matter...It is a term to describe a third party, not to describe yourself.

It indicates the highest level of proficiency and experience, not perfection.

It is, and should remain a term of awe.

[pstarr]

I rarely call anyone "Master." I certainly don't tolerate anyone calling me by that title. I'm just an old fart.

[green meanie]

I don't believe anyone should call themselves 'master', as in "How do you do, I'm Master So-and-so". It's an honorific bestowed onto you by others, not by yourself.

Cthulhu

Agreed. :asian:

[Fluffy]

Matters on the org in which it represents. I hold the title of master but don't require anyone but my students to call me such.

[Kacey]

"Master", in the MA context, is a short form of "Master Instructor", and is a term of respect that denotes the person's achievement. In ITF TKD, "Master" ranks begin at VII Dan, and therefore there are rather fewer of them than there are in other organizations and/or styles that consider lower degrees of BB to be masters. When I call a VII or higher Dan "Master", I am recognizing their rank and demonstrated skill, both in the art itself and in regards to their teaching skill - rather along the lines of calling a physician or dentist "doctor", in recognition of the skills and knowledge required to attain that rank, or calling a college instructor "professor". I do not believe, for myself, that using the term "Master" in a martial arts context connotes any form of that person being my master in the religious or social (e.g. slavery) sense. As in other threads on this topic, "master" is a term with multiple meanings, and people often object to the use of "master" based on other meanings than the one intended in this context.

Do I know people who introduce themselves as "master so-and-so" in MA contexts? Yes, I do - and I find it to be appropriate in that context. Do I know people who introduce themselves as "master so-and-so" out of MA contexts? Not at present, no - and I would find it inappropriate for them to do so. For example, my father has a Ph.D. in Library Science, and is, therefore, qualified to use the term "doctor" as a term of address - but he has chosen not to do so outside the academic world (he's a college professor) because he finds it to be both inappropriate and confusing - from the time I was a child he introduced himself to my friends as "Mister" not "Doctor", because he didn't want to mislead them into thinking he was a medical doctor.

[Explorer]

In the circles I turn in the term Master refers to 5th dan and above ... Master Instructors. One 8th dan I know is referred to as Senior Master Instructor ... but he has us shorten it to "Tom".

I do know a man who branched off his sensei (with permission) and could now be referred to as "Grand Master" ... but he feels stupid being referred to in that way; and since he's a new grandparent I suggested "Grampa Master". I think he likes that better.

[monkey]

Here is what I was told Master means.I hope you see the definition to be exceptable.In the shaolin temple we start as Student to monk to Abbot to Priest to Master.They were not of rank but to let others know the time of honor -schooling - & ablities to teach has been reached to what
we can a super intendent At schools.The super was to advice in instructions in martial arts & the daily jobs.
They call him master.To Clearify one word I saw in the post Sifu dose not mean master.Thats a translations not well translated as there are over 3000 dialects in China.
sifu means father of knowlage.Dungun is master,Sijo my teachers teacher.Shr.fu in another dialect is still the same teacher of.Its ok to address as Mr. & then the name of the master.But some schools be it high school or collage some like their title name as per the sir name.They had time.Alls they ask is so little out of time & honor the title.They dont force it.
If some one force the master for me to say I turn away.My student call me by my name or Monkey.To say you dont beleave in master title-then you defy the founders of the arts-how they set it up & the structor to show some kind of recignition for the time honored.These titles go back 100s of years.To say you dont beleave & carry the title -then the art is not represented as its intent from founders.
Dont throw title as weight-respect the time even if you think only you have the right to master tilte & carry it.Be honest with your self & let honor flow were not asked & smiles return honor.Even Bruce stated 1973 interview with Ted Thomas (After all I am a master of martial arts.)

[matt.m]

Gee, I think master is in the eye of the beholder. I don't know, the folks that do the teaching at my studio are 3rd dan and above. With the two head teachers, one being a 5th dan tkd and the head instructor being 7th dan tkd and 5th dan hapkido they are pretty relaxed. For example, the GM will answer to GM, Master or Mr. to him just show some kind of respect the rest is inconsequential.

The mantra is that "I am teaching so you can learn, just show some level of respect. Just don't say hey bub or something ignorant.

[monkey]

I compleatly agree, but if they ask for respetc at gatherings ect. I diddnt hurt in any way to say ok Ill do it.Like I said if someone said Im master & you have to ----.My 1st teacher ever told me you dont have to anything.Except die.Paying taxes is optional & may result in other means.
Other then that no Have to.But a polite or common use like a hand shake Cant do damage to you so great -you denie ever to honor
even the most reverant Like Yamaguchi-Kano-Mufinie-Otsuka to name a few examples.

[Last Fearner]

I was just wondering how you all use the term "master" and what you think of it's use.

Master Electrician
Master Plumber
Master Mechanic
Master Painter
Master Chef
Master Sergeant
Webmaster . . . .

Master Instructor.

When one has learned, and understood a skill enough to correctly apply it without hesitation, correct their own mistakes as they make them, and identify false information when they see or hear it based on what they know, not blindly following what others have told them, then they have "mastered" the skill. A person who has "mastered" a skill, is a "Master" of that skill, and the term "Master," in that context, is appropriate, in my opinion.

A "Master Teacher," or "Master Instructor" is a person who can successfully guide others to their own understanding of the same knowledge. A sensei, sifu, sabeom, soke, shihan, and kwanjang, are all names which apply to various levels of understanding, skill, and ability to do something. Regardless of the cultural definitions of the past, these terms all refer to the relationship between knowledge, comprehension, and performance.

Those who have legitimately reached the highest levels of an art, and are recognized as the leading authorities, and experts on a subject, have it within their right to bestow upon a junior, a title which distinguishes that person as an expert, or Master of the skill. One should not create the title for themselves, however, once a senior, who has earned the titles themselves, recognizes a person as such, then it is the recipients privilege, right, and honor to use the title, and introduce themselves as such.

The title is not the problem, nor its use, it is the inappropriate use for someone who has not been properly recognized by a senior. To claim the title by one's own assessment is considered presumtuous. Also, those who have properly been recognized as a Master, might forget humility and act arrogantly. Yet, there is a fine line between being confident, and assertive within the performance, and sharing of knowledge, and being arrogant. Some people automatically assume that anyone who uses such titles are arrogant - - but such an assumption is, in itself arrogant, in my opinion.

Anyone can refuse the title if they don't like it, or disagree with it, but most do not fully understand it. Many misuse it, while others accept it without question. No one should be chastised for failing to use the term when addressing a Master Instructor, but may be taught the purpose of showing respect by addressing seniors appropriately. Those who believe in the appropriate application, under specific definition, should not be insulted or criticized because they teach the use of a title of respect and honor which was given to them.

My teacher is always "Grandmaster" . . . . inside the Dojang and outside, 24 hours a day. That is the way I was taught, and that is the way I believe it should be - - from my point of view! :ultracool

Respectfully, :asian:
Chief Master D. J. Eisenhart