Does anyone know the differences, if they exist between a Korean sword and a Japanese Sword?

In the Katana style? I did see an article a few years back in BBM that stated the Korean version was typically 4 inches longer, but I haven't seen that statistic anywhere else.

From what I've seen, there are subtle differences. I did however find an article that addresses it in detail. Summary follows:

Korean swords = 1 handed use, Japanese swords = 2 handed use
They are worn differently, and have different accessories
Japanese swords had soul while Korean swords were tools.
Blades and hilts were assembled differently
Blade curvatures were different
Blade cross sections are different


Look for section IV for a much more indepth explaination.
http://www.arscives.com/historysteel/koreanarticle.htm

:)

Nice info, thanks Bob!
The Kumdo ones were the ones I'd seen, and given how new Kumdo is as it's own art (aka, not just Kendo) It doesn't surprise me that those swords are pretty much identical. Are you looking at the swords pre-occupation then? Or is that on the Kumdo ones? Reason I ask is I've seen much two-handed use in Kumdo, but haven't seen any traditional Korean swordword.

This is a bit of a ticklish issue for some as the fact is that the 'modern' Korean sword arts blade is a copy of the Japanese one.

I don't want to open this whole weeping sore again so that's all I'll say.

From what I've seen, there are subtle differences. I did however find an article that addresses it in detail. Summary follows:

Korean swords = 1 handed use, Japanese swords = 2 handed use
They are worn differently, and have different accessories
Japanese swords had soul while Korean swords were tools.
Blades and hilts were assembled differently
Blade curvatures were different
Blade cross sections are different


Look for section IV for a much more indepth explaination.
http://www.arscives.com/historysteel/koreanarticle.htm

:)

In Haidong Gumdo we use two handed swords....although I had no idea how varied the history of Korean sword arts were!

This is a bit of a ticklish issue for some as the fact is that the 'modern' Korean sword arts blade is a copy of the Japanese one.

I don't want to open this whole weeping sore again so that's all I'll say.

:) I don't mind opening the wound, since I don't know much about it!

I have noticed that, the swords that we use in Haidong Gumdo look almost the same as Japanese, although I have noticed that there seems to be different distinctions. Koreans refer to 2, 3, and 6 edged blades, different blades used for cutting paper, straw, fruit, and bamboo (bamboo being the one that cuts bone just as easily). I have only SEEN Japanese Katanas, but without distinction, although I don't know the terminology, so I could be way off. Do similar things exist in Japanese swords?

Japanese swords had soul


Is this really true? I'm no expert on Japan and the Japanese, but I was always led to believe this was a romanticized notion based on the writings of Hagakure, (I think) which I have been led to believe were, again, romanticized notions of Samurai Honor and beliefs.

Foreigners have a caricatural view of Japan and BUDO. Many have discovered the samurai and the Bushido trough the American novel « shogun ». What most don't know is that the book « Bushido » was written by Inazo NITOBE (a university student) in 1899, meaning 32 years after the disappearance of the last samurai, moreover, the writings in that book were based on an epic novel made of 11 volumes (Hagakure Kikigaki) written in memory of warriors some 150 years earlier, by the monk Yamamoto Tsunetomo. That book extols, through its stories, the idea that « the way of the warrior is death ». Before being a monk, Yamamoto Tsunetomo served the Nabeshima clan in the writings/account department, and so never had any real experience of combat, and was neither a martial arts master. As you can see, neither the book « BUSHIDO, the way of the samurai », neither it's inspiration « HAGAKURE KIKIGAKI, notes collected in the leaves' shadow », were written by warriors, but by dreaming and nostalgic intellectuals during a period of peace and so, have nothing in common with the essence of BUDO.

Anyone?

I can't go into any great detail tonight as we're expecting guests to dinner any timne soon and I have to get to work on the futile attempt to make myself presentable :D.

However, yes it is broadly true that, like the Ninja, the general idea of the Samurai that people hold is very far from the core of the actuality. The 'Bushido Code' never really existed as such until formalised in the late 19th century as noted above - it bears as much resemblence to historical samurai as King Arthurs knights did to our western nobility i.e. a romantacised ideal.

As to the various blade geometries of the katana, that's a subject that spans quite a few centuries - I could try an work up a basic typology but I think that a quick search of the Net would find something useful enough for discussion.

well... looking at history, it only makes sense that blade's change over time.. as new methods of creating blades, new metals, and tactic's change that the blade shape would change with it..

I study hwarang do and we have a little bit of sword usage in our art.. mostly we use small weapons like knives.. but we do touch on swords, and for the most part we just use the katana..

i do know for a fact that there are MANY different styles of Tangs, and several different styles of points...

as for the swords having souls... it is speculated that they believed this.. i think that, it's more of a personal thing.. much like marines naming their rifles..
..they dont belive that it is Alive, but they do put trust in their weapons and begin to feel that it is apart of them.

So the real "root" of the question here - if someone buys a Katana, is it the same thing as a buying a Jin Gum? Or should someone look to buy a Korean sword from a Korean manufacturer?

Well, I would say that if the katana is suitable for the art then there would be no reason not to use it.

But I think that the Korean blades have evolved somewhat from the intial adoption of Japanese inspiration and, if it is a KSA being studied, then using a sword for which the art was made would be better.

I can't go into any great detail tonight as we're expecting guests to dinner any timne soon and I have to get to work on the futile attempt to make myself presentable :D.

However, yes it is broadly true that, like the Ninja, the general idea of the Samurai that people hold is very far from the core of the actuality. The 'Bushido Code' never really existed as such until formalised in the late 19th century as noted above - it bears as much resemblence to historical samurai as King Arthurs knights did to our western nobility i.e. a romantacised ideal.

As to the various blade geometries of the katana, that's a subject that spans quite a few centuries - I could try an work up a basic typology but I think that a quick search of the Net would find something useful enough for discussion.

Nice post Sukerkin. Very simply we often (humans) try to make certain people and periods out to be better or more virtuous than they were. Definately this is the case with both Samurai and the Knights of Europe as well as almost any ruling class around the world. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon6.gif

So the real "root" of the question here - if someone buys a Katana, is it the same thing as a buying a Jin Gum? Or should someone look to buy a Korean sword from a Korean manufacturer?

For practical purposes, most shinken will suffice for the practice of Haidong Gumdo. The differences are slim. However, you should be aware that the World Haidong Gumdo Federation, as well as many of its associates, have chosen to insist that only swords from approved forges may be used at tests, seminars, and other events, as I believe there was a rash of people being injured due to swords breaking.

As always, consult your sabomnim before you spend serious money, and end up with something you're not permitted to bring into the dojang.

...the World Haidong Gumdo Federation, as well as many of its associates, have chosen to insist that only swords from approved forges may be used at tests, seminars, and other events, as I believe there was a rash of people being injured due to swords breaking.
Hi Chris,

Would you be able to tell us who the approved forges are? Are they all in Korea?

I train in an unfamiliar Korean sword art, and am always interested to learn more about Korean swordsmanship in general.

As a general principle, I can certainly understand that position. IMO, a qualified instructor should inspect every sword used in his school. You never know when somebody might walk in with a wallhanger...

Hi Chris,

Would you be able to tell us who the approved forges are? Are they all in Korea?

I train in an unfamiliar Korean sword art, and am always interested to learn more about Korean swordsmanship in general.

As a general principle, I can certainly understand that position. IMO, a qualified instructor should inspect every sword used in his school. You never know when somebody might walk in with a wallhanger...


I'm afraid I don't know who makes them, but I do believe they are all Korean, and there are some funny laws about buying blades in Korea. The practical effect is that outside Korea, you basically have to buy your swords through the Federation. Fortunately, the value is there for them, but it's still aggrivating.

Has anything been made public regarding the Federation's sales? Is there a website to look at - or is it basically just you tell your instructor you want a sword and you get whatever is delivered to you?

Has anything been made public regarding the Federation's sales? Is there a website to look at - or is it basically just you tell your instructor you want a sword and you get whatever is delivered to you?


I really don't know - The US site has been down for some time, I don't speak Korean, and there's not much on any of the other English language sites. I know that there are a variety of swords available, and you do get a selection, but I think that first hand sales are only made through Federation associates.

Really, though, you need to consult with your instructor before you order any blade you plan on using in the dojang. He may let you use any jingum that passes a basic safety inspection, or he may insist on Federation supplied steel. The Federation will insist on using a Federation sword at seminars and tests, but those are a tiny fraction of your training, and it does not have to be your personal blade you use at these tests. I know we have a half a dozen folks who have cut bamboo for testing using our sabomnim's sword.

Hi Chris, thanks for your reply.

...there are some funny laws about buying blades in Korea.

There certainly seem to be. I could tell you a couple of stories about the difficulty of getting a Korean sword out of Korea. Seems that the authorities are very sensitive to the possibility of people trying to smuggle antiques out of the country.

If we choose to, we can get hand-forged blades made for us by a long-time swordsmith who the head of our kwan knows. They're very nice blades, and are pretty much indistinguishable from a Japanese sword, except that generally they have less curvature (what the Japanese call sori). But, it's not a requirement in our style, we're pretty open about what type of blade students use. As long as they're safe, especially if we're cutting targets.

At any rate, there aren't many of us. Most guys stick strictly to Hapkido.

cdunn - Thanks for the info! I don't intent to purchase anything without my instructor anyway, honestly I was just curious about locations and what to look at. Price ranges as well. I will be ready for a Kah Gum soon, so I was curious about price ranges. Soon after I will need to start thinking about a bamboo sword as well.

The question actually stemmed from researching forges and blades...they're all Japanese. I will also be teaching Gumdo some day, so I like to have as wide of a knowledge base as I can.

cdunn - Thanks for the info! I don't intent to purchase anything without my instructor anyway, honestly I was just curious about locations and what to look at. Price ranges as well. I will be ready for a Kah Gum soon, so I was curious about price ranges. Soon after I will need to start thinking about a bamboo sword as well.

The question actually stemmed from researching forges and blades...they're all Japanese. I will also be teaching Gumdo some day, so I like to have as wide of a knowledge base as I can.

For federation stuff, my kagum was around 125 USD, maybe 150. Jingum ran from 1000 USD to 2200 USD, but the price may have changed with the fall of the dollar. Jukdo are about the same price as mokgum. Jukdo are practically disposable, too - they get torn up pretty fast.

And, sadly, most of the swords that you'll see out there aren't even Japanese in origin, but rather, Chinese copies of the Japanese design. These guys (http://www.martialartswords.com/index.php) are the only Korean exporting forge I've seen so far. Getting swords out of Japan / Korea is kind of rough legally.

Prices of kagums will vary somewhat with the master. Each master is allowed to add whatever markup he feels is fair to his cost for the sword. So a kagum might be $125, or it might be $180. In any case you can only get federation kagums through the federation, as they are of a special design just for the federation, and feature WHDGDF guards.

Jingums vary even more in price, as the same rule applies; a master can add whatever markup he regards as fair to his cost. Again, the only place you can get a federation jingum is through the federation, and federation jingums have WHDGDF logos incorporated into the guard, fittings and saya.
The lowest I have seen the cheapest WHDGDF jingum (bamboo/flower model) go for here is $1200; the most expensive (with lots of bling) is over $2500. We have not been able to determine if there is in fact any functional difference in the blades of the $1200 model vs. the $2500 model. However, using MAS swords as a reference point, the most expensive WHDGDF jingum adds about $1000 of bling compared to the basic model, so it's possible that there isn't in fact a significant difference in the two blades, but there might be. We're not sure.

In any case, a jingum's primary differences from most katanas i have had the chance to cut with were (1) jingums do not have grooves; (2) jingums always have the handle held on by one peg and a bolt (the end cap is screwed on) for lots more security; (3) jingums are differentially hardened (real hamon), which means they have a hard, very sharp, but more fragile edge than a through hardened sword (though many katanas are differentially hardened as well); (4) jingums are generally, at least around here, only available in one length (28 inches)

If you are at a WHDGDF cutting event, in most cases they can see from across the room whether you are using a federation sword. Sometimes they enforce the no-non-federation sword rule, sometimes they don't.

And i forgot to add, WHDGDF jingums are made in Korea.

I have had the opportunity to train with some rather old Korean swords (which were I imagine very expensive) as well as some of the newer Japanese inspired jingum. In fact I have a couple of them in my collection. (older ones) http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon6.gif Now the ones that I have are nice swords and some of the ones that I have handled are okay. I found the ones sold to Kuk Sol Won practitioners to be poor. (basically junk: sorry http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon9.gif) I have no knowledge on the WHDGDF current training swords and jingum. Though in my opinon bling is worthless as it all comes down to the functionality of the blade and the quality of sword smithing that went into it. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon14.gif

I have also had the opportunity to handle some of mantiss swords jingum and they were just okay by my standards. (which certainly have changed alot since I took started working in Japanese Arts) Still, I have handled moderately priced Japanese swords let's say in the $7,000 to $30,000 price range and there is a drastic differance in overall quality. In reality you sometimes due get what you pay for! http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon6.gif I remember my first iaito thinking how great it was. I only realized later after purchasing a really nice one how much junk it actually was! With the cost of swords being so much enter into this slowly and purchase what you can easily afford at first and then move up to a nicer one as your skill gets better!

However having said that the basic intro line of mantiss jingum or probably the WHDGDF jingum will probably work well for Korean Gum training if that is the system you are studying. Also always go through your instructor when purchasing a sword as that in general will save you alot of headaches!!! (plus even if they only make $50 on the transaction you are supporting your group)

And, sadly, most of the swords that you'll see out there aren't even Japanese in origin, but rather, Chinese copies of the Japanese design.

That's true, but there are practical reasons for that.

First, a true Japanese sword, made by licensed artisans (smith, polisher, habaki maker, scabbard / handle maker) in Japan, costs a fortune. Their production is tightly regulated. Collectors bid up the prices to the point that they are unaffordable, practically speaking, for most of us mere mortals.

The quality of some Chinese production katanas has risen steadily over the past few years. Bugei and Hanwei (who make Bugei's swords) are a couple of vendors who offer quality Japanese-style swords made in China by traditional Japanese methods. For most of us, these blades will suffice for kata / hyung and cutting practice.

Getting swords out of Japan / Korea is kind of rough legally.

I believe that, in general, if you have the financial wherewithal to buy a Japanese sword, the seller will take care of the legalities / red tape of having it shipped out of Japan. Where you'd have more trouble would be in trying to take a sword you already own into, and then back out of, Japan. That can be a legal and bureaucratic nightmare. Really not worth the trouble in most cases unless you're talking about an iaito that's not steel.

We are fortunate in that we are able to obtain hand-forged swords from a private smith in Korea for our sword art. He is a friend of the head of our kwan. The swords are heavily influenced by the design of the katana. They are differentially heat-treated and hand-polished, so the hamon is clearly visible. Some have grooves, some do not. Some are live blades, some are not sharp (equivalent to an iaito in that respect, but different in that they're made of hand-forged steel, not a non-steel alloy). Lead time is generally 3 - 4 months. The fittings are very nice, and hold up well to regular practice.

That's true, but there are practical reasons for that.

First, a true Japanese sword, made by licensed artisans (smith, polisher, habaki maker, scabbard / handle maker) in Japan, costs a fortune. Their production is tightly regulated. Collectors bid up the prices to the point that they are unaffordable, practically speaking, for most of us mere mortals.

The quality of some Chinese production katanas has risen steadily over the past few years. Bugei and Hanwei (who make Bugei's swords) are a couple of vendors who offer quality Japanese-style swords made in China by traditional Japanese methods. For most of us, these blades will suffice for kata / hyung and cutting practice.


Absolutely - Were I not planning on participating in WHDGF events in the future, I'd be saving for a Bugei or a MAS sword myself. However, the old advice of buyer, be aware applies. Ensure that you're buying a blade, not a wallhanger before you plop down your cash for them. There's plenty already floating around here on how to tell the difference.


I believe that, in general, if you have the financial wherewithal to buy a Japanese sword, the seller will take care of the legalities / red tape of having it shipped out of Japan. Where you'd have more trouble would be in trying to take a sword you already own into, and then back out of, Japan. That can be a legal and bureaucratic nightmare. Really not worth the trouble in most cases unless you're talking about an iaito that's not steel.

We are fortunate in that we are able to obtain hand-forged swords from a private smith in Korea for our sword art. He is a friend of the head of our kwan. The swords are heavily influenced by the design of the katana. They are differentially heat-treated and hand-polished, so the hamon is clearly visible. Some have grooves, some do not. Some are live blades, some are not sharp (equivalent to an iaito in that respect, but different in that they're made of hand-forged steel, not a non-steel alloy). Lead time is generally 3 - 4 months. The fittings are very nice, and hold up well to regular practice.

Yes, if you can afford an actual nihonto or Korean blade, you can afford the process of getting it out of the country. But it makes it relatively undesirable for the smiths in Korea (and doubly so Japan) to even want to attempt to make lower end blades for export.

You are a lucky man to have a custom smith at your call. Glad to hear he treats you well.

You are a lucky man to have a custom smith at your call. Glad to hear he treats you well.
Hi,

Thanks, we feel the same way. ;)

I'm planning on being back in Korea for training in April (mostly Hapkido, but some sword work as well)... I'll try to find out more about this smith while I'm there. All I know now is that his surname is Kim (really narrows it down, right?) and that he lives in Daegu.

Hi,

Thanks, we feel the same way. ;)

I'm planning on being back in Korea for training in April (mostly Hapkido, but some sword work as well)... I'll try to find out more about this smith while I'm there. All I know now is that his surname is Kim (really narrows it down, right?) and that he lives in Daegu.


Only 22% of Korea is named Kim. It does narrow it down! :xtrmshock

Please keep in mind that if you are a student at a WHDGDF school in North America, there is a push to deny use of non-Federation blades at formal WHDGDF events (Dan tests, etc). This is partly a safety issue, as Federation swords are specifically designed to cut bamboo safely. To some unofficial extent it may also be a support-the-school issue, as you can only get Federation swords through your master.

just like the "Major" differences between o'sensei hapkido and moo sul kwan hapkido it is the footwork. The same with the major diff. between shotokan vs. tkd and yudo vs. judo.

It is all about the mindset and intention of the technique.