Boxing

[MJS]

Every art has punching incorporated in it. However, there are arts out there that specialize in certain areas. Obviously a boxer is very good at what they do.

So, that being said, I'm curious to know who adds in boxing training to their base art?

For myself, I do this as much as possible. Bag/focus mitt work, footwork as well as their punching concepts, are all included into my training. IMHO, when you want to improve on something, sometimes you need to look outside the box. :ultracool

[Jai]

Same as with side training in wrestling, I also have added basic boxing to my normal MA training. I hit a heavy bag as much as possible.

[Blotan Hunka]

I just came back from my second formal boxing class. The first workout I went to was was a "smoker" , basic footwork, jab and straight right, then right to the bag and then to the ring against a guy with focus mitts. Then a killer bag workout. Left me gassed. Today was "sparring". My opponent, an experienced boxer in full gear, just danced around while I tried to hit him with jabs and straight rights. He would just tap me if I left myself open, but I didnt even need a mouthguard. It was still a good workout. What im finding out quick is that boxing is great for overall conditioning. Teaching you to keep swinging when your hands feel like lead and timing and distance. Using footwork to get into striking range but staying in balance so you dont fall on your face when you miss is key.

[Brian S]

Boxing is definetly a good thing to add to or enhance your arsenal no matter what ma you practice.

Some people think just hitting a heavy or speed bag is boxing, it isn't. There is foot work, hand and body positioning, slips, etc... Get good training from a boxing professional.

[searcher]

I boxed Golden Gloves for 7 years and it is included in the training I give my students. I also try to do a boxing workout on my own at least once per week. It is essential to creating a well-rounded MAist IMO.

[karate-dragon]

We do boxing rounds in our hour long cardio class. 3 two minute rounds of jump rope, then some wall drills. Then 8 to 10 rounds of heavy bag work (2 or 3 min rounds). Then some kicking drills and abd work. Everyone has benefited in speed and focus and weight loss and endurance. Makes sparring class a breeze!

[meth18au]

I have done a little bit of boxing work in the past. I also sometimes incorporate it into my workouts, with focus mitts and on a bag. I'm thinking of taking formal classes soon to supplement my Muay Thai. I'm a bit torn at the moment though, it's hard to pull myself away from my current routine, but boxing is so beneficial.

[JadecloudAlchemist]

Boxing was the first thing I learned. As one teacher told me "I am a terrible martial artist but a great boxer" In school it was common to slap box daily and I learned both Ring Boxing and street boxing which to me has very interesting stances and hand positioning. When I say street boxing I do not mean it as a style but what those who were in gangs and such used a mixture of some form of altered boxing.

[thardey]

Boxing is mixed into my style, from the beginning. "Fighting" Stances are slightly modified to protect against kicks, but the bounce, slips, jabs, ducks, uppercuts, combinations, etc, are still there. It's just done in a slightly different application.

The strikes look different, though. Instead of a hook, thrown tight and from a twist in the waist, we teach a hooking palm, or hooking ridge hand. We supplement the jab with a lead-hand backfist. Stuff like that. We also teach parries and blocks, rather than covers.

Last month my instructor was testing for her 3rd degree black. She had torn her ACL at the last attempt to test, and she was still hesitant about using kicks while sparring, which is her strength normally. So I taught her to box. It wasn't much of a transition, other than getting her to be more aggressive, and she loved it.

But, in my experience, boxing wastes a lot of energy, that's why it's a good workout, and looks brutal, but I always ended up working against myself, until karate specifically taught me how to move more efficiently. So, I like to combine the tactics and attack patterns of boxing, with the energy-saving tricks of karate. I don't know, maybe I'm just finally getting the idea of what boxing is!

[Odin]

I go to boxing classes as well as my usual Muay thai and MMA classes.

I am a big of the art of boxing.

[Blotan Hunka]

I dunno about the "wasted energy" bit. The training Im getting is very big on technique. A good straight right can be as good a stopper as a Karate strike. A fight is a fight. The thing I see about "street translation" is hand position. For instance, the jab is taught to be delivered with the last 2-3 knuckles to get the arm/shoulder to rotate and protect the head/chin. Which makes sense in the sport but will get some broken bones unwrapped/ungloved. I do like the simplicity of the basic techniques. It is very easy to get them into the "autopilot" slot if you catch my meaning. And they work.

[thardey]

I dunno about the "wasted energy" bit. The training Im getting is very big on technique. A good straight right can be as good a stopper as a Karate strike. A fight is a fight. The thing I see about "street translation" is hand position. For instance, the jab is taught to be delivered with the last 2-3 knuckles to get the arm/shoulder to rotate and protect the head/chin. Which makes sense in the sport but will get some broken bones unwrapped/ungloved. I do like the simplicity of the basic techniques. It is very easy to get them into the "autopilot" slot if you catch my meaning. And they work.


A good boxing punch can hit every bit as hard as a good karate strike, I agree. It could have just been the training I got, but boxing just seemed to use a different set of muscles than karate to strike with. Plus, I was basically a cripple at the time, so I may have been overcompensating with my upper body, since I couldn't engage my hips/knees.

I would basically stand with a squared stance, with my left leg slightly forward, and get reach with my punches by twisting my torso. My arms themselves would stay loose, and very quick, but the twisting motion would wear me out, especially if I was getting hit in the torso.

In karate, now I move my lead leg a little farther forward, and get reach by twisting from the hips, so that my shoulders and hips stay together. It's just as fast, but uses a lot less energy, since I'm using my larger muscles to move, and my smaller muscles to stabilize.

The other energy-saver I found was in the hook vs. "hooking strikes". In boxing they were delivered by a combination of throwing the hand in a circular strike, combined with a twist of the torso to transfer the power. In karate I was taught to throw the hook as a straight technique just to the side of my target, and when I hit the end of my reach, let the strike "snap" to the inside, like the tip of a whip. It delivered less raw weight, but a lot higher velocity, which mathematically works out the same as far as kinetic energy transferred. But it uses a lot less energy for me.

I guess boxing taught me to think of a fight in terms of momentum (mass x velocity), where karate taught me to think of it in terms of kinetic energy (1/2 mass x velocity^2). In other words: "club-head speed".


But I still jab with my shoulder rolled over for protection. It's a marvelous defense. You can still focus the hit on your two "rams head" knuckles, you just have to pull the "pinky side" of your fist back towards the elbow. It protects your weaker knuckles quite nicely.

[Blotan Hunka]

A good boxing punch can hit every bit as hard as a good karate strike, I agree. It could have just been the training I got, but boxing just seemed to use a different set of muscles than karate to strike with. Plus, I was basically a cripple at the time, so I may have been overcompensating with my upper body, since I couldn't engage my hips/knees.

I would basically stand with a squared stance, with my left leg slightly forward, and get reach with my punches by twisting my torso. My arms themselves would stay loose, and very quick, but the twisting motion would wear me out, especially if I was getting hit in the torso.

In karate, now I move my lead leg a little farther forward, and get reach by twisting from the hips, so that my shoulders and hips stay together. It's just as fast, but uses a lot less energy, since I'm using my larger muscles to move, and my smaller muscles to stabilize.

The other energy-saver I found was in the hook vs. "hooking strikes". In boxing they were delivered by a combination of throwing the hand in a circular strike, combined with a twist of the torso to transfer the power. In karate I was taught to throw the hook as a straight technique just to the side of my target, and when I hit the end of my reach, let the strike "snap" to the inside, like the tip of a whip. It delivered less raw weight, but a lot higher velocity, which mathematically works out the same as far as kinetic energy transferred. But it uses a lot less energy for me.

I guess boxing taught me to think of a fight in terms of momentum (mass x velocity), where karate taught me to think of it in terms of kinetic energy (1/2 mass x velocity^2). In other words: "club-head speed".


But I still jab with my shoulder rolled over for protection. It's a marvelous defense. You can still focus the hit on your two "rams head" knuckles, you just have to pull the "pinky side" of your fist back towards the elbow. It protects your weaker knuckles quite nicely.

Different boxing coaches have different stylistic differences. The guy I'm going to is big on having the lead side shoulder pointing at the opponent so the straight right comes with a twist from the hips and drive from the rear leg. I know that some trainers have a more squared up stance. I have been sore through the lats which my coach says is good. I guess arm/chest soreness shows too much arm "muscling". My trainer teaches that impacting with the arm in propper postition is key. You dont want to slam into the target with a bent elbow because that bend is relying on muscle and "pushing". Ideally,the arm should be at almost full extension on impact, with the last bit of "snap" saved for penetrating into the target. Of course this is about moving and hitting a moving target, so thats the "ideal"... in reality mileage may vary

[thardey]

Different boxing coaches have different stylistic differences. The guy I'm going to is big on having the lead side shoulder pointing at the opponent so the straight right comes with a twist from the hips and drive from the rear leg. I know that some trainers have a more squared up stance. I have been sore through the lats which my coach says is good. I guess arm/chest soreness shows too much arm "muscling".

That sounds a lot like what I'm doing now. 'cept in karate. When I'm in "attack" mode, I mostly use that kind of boxing you described, (it makes for a beautifully quick jab, with power) with maybe a kick or two thrown in at the end of the blitz. When I'm in "defense" mode I use a whole different stance, and almost primarily kicks and back-knuckles.

I think another big difference is in the weight of the gloves. It's hard to "flick" a hooking strike out there, even with 12 oz. gloves on. That'll make my lats and deltoids sore in a hurry. Something I don't feel so much with karate mitts on.

[Blotan Hunka]

Oh yeah. I train (sparring) w/20oz gloves. After a short period my left jab feels more like a powder puff then a punch lol!

[thardey]

Oh yeah. I train (sparring) w/20oz gloves. After a short period my left jab feels more like a powder puff then a punch lol!


Geez! the most I ever used was 14 oz. and after a couple of minutes I felt like I was swinging a couple of barbells around. No wonder the guy was dancing around you! You must really have to telegraph to throw a punch with those dead weights on.

[Blotan Hunka]

We'll the other guy was putting himself in the "human punching bag" role so it wasnt a huge sacrifice.

[still learning]

Hello, Have you notice? ...those who train in boxing....are harder to hit!

In most fights....starts almost like a boxing match! BOXING "we all need to learn how to box!"

among the other things we are still learning!

Our insurance does not let us box or use boxing gloves in our Kempo classes...we can use sparring gear and spar, and do boxing drills on bags!

One of top instructors was a golden glove boxer..and we get alot of lessons or drills from him! Still not the same as getting into a ring and box!

For those who just do martial arts? and never box? ....you will find it a different world when boxing in the ring? ....It is harder than you think!

The timing? ....getting hit because...no experience...and the energy use up in the first minutes is exhausting.....like in a real fight?

Black eyes ...can be beautiful ........big lips too! .......broken nose? ...not sure if it will improve your looks .....it may smell some!

Aloha ( want to learn to fight? ...take up boxing)

[searcher]

the most I ever used was 14 oz.


I won't allow for the use of gloves any lighter than 18 oz. Huge safety factor in letting smaller gloves be used.

I also use 20 oz. Ringside gloves when I Kickbox with my students and with one of my instructor's students.

[Guardian]

Alot of good information here and I concur, boxing is one outstanding aspect to add to your MAs or Self-Defense training.

[foot2face]

Boxing is great! A senior BB at my school was an accomplished boxer. He tried to get me involved in Golden Gloves but it just wasn't my thing. The only criticism I have about boxing is the they don't condition their hands enough. Broken hands are way too common, every boxer I knew had at least one break. If you combined boxing with TMA hand conditioning you be one dangerous man.

[Blotan Hunka]

The hand wraps and gloves let you swing a LOT harder than normal. Ive hit bags bare handed and I cant imagine hitting it as hard as I do when wrapped/gloved...ouch!

[meth18au]

20oz gloves? Man that's crazy....

[Blotan Hunka]

20oz gloves? Man that's crazy....

I believe they use them more for training purposes (muscular/endurance) than anything else.

[searcher]

I believe they use them more for training purposes (muscular/endurance) than anything else.


The reason I use mine is, I don't have to pull punches as much as when I use lighter gloves. Nothing worse than fighting and you have the bad habit of pulling your punches.

[Blotan Hunka]

Man, my knuckles are starting to ache, even through the wraps and gloves. And im no stranger to punching things. Im finding that the boxing hand protection removes some inhibitions to hard swinging I didnt know I had. When you are barehanded you my think you are not holding back, but you probably are.

[meth18au]

I believe they use them more for training purposes (muscular/endurance) than anything else.


The 14oz gloves are heavy enough for my shoulders to feel like concrete LOL :) Maybe I should invest in a pair of these big boys, it'd probably be beneficial to me!

[seasoned]

I feel boxing techniques and conditioning methods mesh well and I do incorporate them in advanced training as a supplement to our base art.

[thardey]

For now, since I'm not actually participating in the sporting end of boxing, I think I'll keep practicing the techniques and strategies, but stick with my karate gloves, or practice with nothing.

My reasoning:

Pro "Light hands": While practicing with heavy gloves, your body mechanics to generate speed and power will be slightly different. For me, I'll use my shoulders more, for one thing that I know of, probably other subtle changes as well.

One of the things I know I have to work on (a lot) is not telegraphing my movement, and moving as efficiently as possible. So, If I practice with "light hands" I'll be training my body how best to move in that configuration, which is how I will be using it. One of my biggest "tells" that I'm throwing anything is that my shoulders start to lead, or my head leads slightly (not enough to present a target, but enough to give my attack away.)

Meanwhile, I still practice the basic attack combinations, and the "never say die" mentality that is so crucial to boxing, and so often overlooked in karate.

Pros for "heavy hands": I do know how effective it is to practice with heavier gloves, then when you take them off, you feel like you're weightless. Compared to the gloves, now you're lightening fast. Your muscles are better able to handle the endurance, and blasts of power, and you're mentally toughened to go longer.


Conclusion: For me, at this stage in my training, I think I will continue with little/no weight. I already have some of the fastest jabs/hands in my dojo, and I credit that to a lot of work on the speed bag, and double-ended bag. (The light ones that will come around and hit you in the face if your guard drops. Lotsa fun!) I can also generate a good amount of power in my hits, and I don't want to train my hands to be dependent on padding, but to know my own limits.

If I am going to be hitting faster, I want it to be because I am throwing technically correct punches, not punches using stronger muscles. At this point, I'm not connected with a boxing coach who can help me do both.

But, I do credit a lot of my most useful fighting skills to my start in both boxing, and as a pint-sized football lineman.

I think boxing is severely under-rated these days.

[Blotan Hunka]

Theres no denying how many more punches I can throw (and how harder they are) when I drop down to lighter gloves.

[thesandman]

I'm going to voice a minority opinion.

Boxing is a sport, not a fighting style. That's not to say that it doesn't have its uses, but rather that in my experience, boxing training has hurt more martial artists than it's helped. It creates an unrealistic mindset in a real world situation and confuses the body in almost any martial arts tournament setting.

I have fought many, many boxers in my career. Both in real situations and in a ring. I have never once found them even remotely challenging. That's to say, pure boxers.

Now martial artists with boxing training, I've found that when they try to box, they lose. When they use their style they do much better. Generally, boxing training is so very different than MA training, it's hard to mix them well.

Most situations are about minimizing mistakes. Approaching me with your chest pointed at me, mistake. Throwing a "hook" at me, mistake. Hell, throwing your weight into any strike at me is going to get you seriously hurt or at least thrown across the room.

As an example, many years ago a friend of mine won some kind of regional boxing championship. He was very proud and I was happy for him. This was around the same time I was competing heavily in sparring. He asked me if I thought he could take me in a fight. I told him no, fighting and sports are very much two different things. He could beat me easily at boxing. I could beat him easily at sparring. They are both essentially games. But a fight? He just doesn't have the training. He didn't believe me, even on the sparring issue. I agreed to face him in the ring, with pads. He would box, I would spar. Basically free sparring (not stopping for points, but no throws or low blows type of thing). Much to his dismay he was unable to land a single blow. He just didn't know how to deal with my wide stance and ability to make him miss. Continually he would walk straight into my strikes, under estimating my range and speed.

Now I admit, this was a pure boxer with no other training at all. Not much of an accomplishment for me. I did some boxing training with him to learn first hand what it was that was making him so easy to defeat. The list was staggeringly long. Boxers train to win boxing maches which have strict rules and a long line of tradition.

I fully recommend doing some boxing training for the experience. I can even understand taking some of the good things they do and applying it to your style, even if at that point it's not really boxing. I do not, in the most strong terms, recommend doing boxing training at any rank under black belt, nor taking to heart the stances, weight distribution, angles of attack or mindset that almost always goes along with it.

[foot2face]

You are correct in pointing out the differences of a combat sport vs. a fighting system, unfortunately something many are unable to do, but boxing is only a sport if the rules that govern ones training are sport oriented. If ones training goals are more practical than boxing does indeed become a fighting system. I've known boxers who train that low blows and back of the head shots aren't only valid but preferable. They train to avoid a clinch at all cost and not relay on it a a safety net. They also train that a fight last ten seconds not ten rounds. Boxers who train like this can be devastatingly effective.

[meth18au]

Is Muay Thai only a combat sport in your eyes fella's? Would this render my training only sport training......???

Would you say nothing in the way a boxer trains is useful in an SD situation? In another one of my posts I was talking about my desire to expand my horizons- boxing is one of those arts on the horizon. I personally think a good boxer would possess many qualities that would allow them to protect themselves, both in and out of a ring.

[thesandman]

Is Muay Thai only a combat sport in your eyes fella's? Would this render my training only sport training......???

Would you say nothing in the way a boxer trains is useful in an SD situation? In another one of my posts I was talking about my desire to expand my horizons- boxing is one of those arts on the horizon. I personally think a good boxer would possess many qualities that would allow them to protect themselves, both in and out of a ring.

This is all very true, I simply warn that it must be taken with a pretty big grain of salt and approached from an educated and experienced mindset. My fear is for the people dabbling in boxing without the knowledge and experience to accurately understand it's strengths and weaknesses.

I aslo believe that anyone training to strike the back of the head or groin is at that point not boxing. Their training may be very boxing oriented and have much in common with it, but boxing is a game. Once you move outside the rules of the game, you're no longer boxing and it should be called something else.

The first time you ever punch an olympic sparrer in the face and see the look of shock on them you'll understand what I mean. This was a mistake I couldn't help but repeatedly make the last time I was doing olympic sparring at a TKD class. Since points from punches are almost never awarded, most of them don't even fight at all to protect the face and head. They fight in a straight line, kicking each others chests. Every time the guy would move towards me, I'd side step him and punch him in the head. I couldn't help myself, it was reflex.

[tahuti]

Does anyone know good resource that compares old timers bare knuckle boxing vs modern boxing?
Only link I have found is http://www.savateaustralia.com/Savate%20Essays/Bare-Knuckles%20to%20Modern%20Boxing.htm

[Odin]

This is all very true, I simply warn that it must be taken with a pretty big grain of salt and approached from an educated and experienced mindset. My fear is for the people dabbling in boxing without the knowledge and experience to accurately understand it's strengths and weaknesses.

I aslo believe that anyone training to strike the back of the head or groin is at that point not boxing. Their training may be very boxing oriented and have much in common with it, but boxing is a game. Once you move outside the rules of the game, you're no longer boxing and it should be called something else.

The first time you ever punch an olympic sparrer in the face and see the look of shock on them you'll understand what I mean. This was a mistake I couldn't help but repeatedly make the last time I was doing olympic sparring at a TKD class. Since points from punches are almost never awarded, most of them don't even fight at all to protect the face and head. They fight in a straight line, kicking each others chests. Every time the guy would move towards me, I'd side step him and punch him in the head. I couldn't help myself, it was reflex.

Its interesting that what you say here about people not being conditioned enough to take shots to the head or body for that matter....I would expect this is one espect of Boxing that a boxer would excell at, whether practioners from other martial arts would fail.

Your post about the boxer you met many years back that couldnt touch you is very interesting....i doubt very much he was that experienced based on the manner in which you have said you beat him.....''continued to walk into shots??'' that is a school boy thing to do.

[Odin]

Does anyone know good resource that compares old timers bare knuckle boxing vs modern boxing?
Only link I have found is http://www.savateaustralia.com/Savate%20Essays/Bare-Knuckles%20to%20Modern%20Boxing.htm

lol I couldnt imagine Floyd Maywhether fighting on the ''cobbles''...i doubt he would be very 'pretty' if he did :P

[meth18au]

This is all very true, I simply warn that it must be taken with a pretty big grain of salt and approached from an educated and experienced mindset.

Understanding the strengths and weaknesses of any art from an educated mindset is a great thing to do. However, a skilled boxer would hold their own outside of the ring as well. I guarantee I can hold my own, and I don't take my Muay Thai training with a grain of salt either!!!


You say that:

My fear is for the people dabbling in boxing without the knowledge and experience to accurately understand it's strengths and weaknesses.

But...there is no better way to understand the strengths or weaknesses of any artform than by training in (or against) that artform? True?



I aslo believe that anyone training to strike the back of the head or groin is at that point not boxing. Their training may be very boxing oriented and have much in common with it, but boxing is a game. Once you move outside the rules of the game, you're no longer boxing and it should be called something else.

You're still using boxing though. It's like Muay Thai- in or out of the ring- still the same style. Maybe there are some differences, but essentially it is the same style, just with no restrictions. Or TKD, whether used in competition or elsewhere- it remains the same style. Does it not?



I fully recommend doing some boxing training for the experience. I can even understand taking some of the good things they do and applying it to your style, even if at that point it's not really boxing. I do not, in the most strong terms, recommend doing boxing training at any rank under black belt, nor taking to heart the stances, weight distribution, angles of attack or mindset that almost always goes along with it.

So does a black belt automatically qualify you to have the expertise? I know some black belts that couldn't fight to save their mothers life!!!! You've sparked my curiosity with some of your comments in the above quote. Why not take to heart the stances, weight distribution, angles of attack or mindset? If possible, clarification of your views on why these should not be taken to heart would be interesting to hear? Thanks mate

[Blotan Hunka]

Im guessing he wasnt fighting a pro/semi-pro/golden gloves boxer. Most boxers I have met are tough SOB's that can take punches like you wouldnt believe. The "average boxer" would make mincemeat over the average "recreational martial artist" anyday IMO.

[Odin]

Im guessing he wasnt fighting a pro/semi-pro/golden gloves boxer. Most boxers I have met are tough SOB's that can take punches like you wouldnt believe. The "average boxer" would make mincemeat over the average "recreational martial artist" anyday IMO.

I would have to agree with you there.

Most recreational martial artists do not get punched in the face daily.

[meth18au]

Im guessing he wasnt fighting a pro/semi-pro/golden gloves boxer. Most boxers I have met are tough SOB's that can take punches like you wouldnt believe. The "average boxer" would make mincemeat over the average "recreational martial artist" anyday IMO.


And I'm going to agree with you too...

I'm still interested to see thesandman's clarification in regards to my queries in my earlier post....???

[searcher]

Im guessing he wasnt fighting a pro/semi-pro/golden gloves boxer. Most boxers I have met are tough SOB's that can take punches like you wouldnt believe. The "average boxer" would make mincemeat over the average "recreational martial artist" anyday IMO.


I am going to chime in and agree wholeheartedly on this one. Having boxed GG for 7 years, it helped my fighting skills out immensely. Not to mention that it looks a lot less conspicuous if you get in a street altercation than if you throw a clean kick or a joint lock on someone. And it makes getting hurt happen a bunch less.

[Langenschwert]

A very nice thread on MAP on tradtional boxing:

http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20504

best regards,

-Mark

[tradrockrat]

I'm glad to see I'm in the majority opinion here.

Boxing is an integral part of my MA - from day one. I feel that boxing is a skill set just like the kicks, throws, strikes, etc of other MA's. Sure most practitioners use it in a sport called "boxing" but in my experience, their comfort with full contact, their well developed timing and conditioning, and their ability to stand in there make boxers a VERY serious opponent on the street / ring / dojo / whatever.

to look down on any combat skill set because it is used in a sport is ridiculous IMHO.