Bowing

[Hollywood1340]

(Done at the behest of Judo Kid)
How do you show respect? I nod to people I see, I bow to the mat, and those of higher rank, when requested during class, and when other wise polite. Sir, and Ma'am are the norm, and try and listen to all.

[Bob Hubbard]

What does respect have to do with training in the arts? What does bowing have to do with training?

Does this sound familiar?
"I go into a class, I want to learn how to do stuff that works. Whats with all this bowwing, and siring, and fancy dancing.

Ok, I bowed to your picture, I bowed to the teacher, and the shmuck next to me...so whats with this meditation crap? Like I'm going to sit there and think 'which move should I do' when I'm out busting heads.

Oh jeeze, more fancy hand gestures. When the hell am I going to learn to beat people up? I think I wasted my money on this stupid costume they make you wear here.

Oh man.... not another stupid useless thing....I should have taken up boxing.....but its hard to write with those gloves on....

Oh man...more bowing.... This class sucks.... They didnt teach me ****. I bet I could kick their asses. "

[Kirk]

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz
What does respect have to do with training in the arts? What does bowing have to do with training?

Does this sound familiar?
"I go into a class, I want to learn how to do stuff that works. Whats with all this bowwing, and siring, and fancy dancing.

Ok, I bowed to your picture, I bowed to the teacher, and the shmuck next to me...so whats with this meditation crap? Like I'm going to sit there and think 'which move should I do' when I'm out busting heads.

Oh jeeze, more fancy hand gestures. When the hell am I going to learn to beat people up? I think I wasted my money on this stupid costume they make you wear here.

Oh man.... not another stupid useless thing....I should have taken up boxing.....but its hard to write with those gloves on....

Oh man...more bowing.... This class sucks.... They didnt teach me ****. I bet I could kick their asses. "


ROFLMAO!!! Where'd you get that from?

[Rich Parsons]

I bow with respect to the New Lord Sidious Picture.

Nice Job Kaith Great Work!!!!

With respect to all

[Bob Hubbard]

Thanks guys.

Seriously, I made it up. Had many of those same thoughts when I was just starting out. Couldn't understand why things were the way they were. Had a long conversation with Ingmar from Sweden... he showed me about a half dozen techniches that flowed right out of the traditional kenpo salutation. I was like, "That is useful? Damn!" He also showed me some offencive stuff right out of Short 1.

3 years of training, a casual knowledge of 40+ arts, and some exposure to the real movers and shakers has opened my eyes. Its onething to train in the one room school house...going to Harvards a whole different world.

Too many times folks get involved, have the blinders on, refuse to bend and lose out one whole worlds of things.

Bowing....I rarely bow. I don't train in arts that do alot of it. We bow at the begining of class as a group, and at the end, then shake hands. Nothing fancy. Now, if I got the chance to train in some of the arts I'm interested in would I? Yes. I have no problems following the customs of different arts. Maybe its the larger experiences I've had traveling around the US, or just a rejection of the 'mental constipation' too many folks suffer from.

Youre gonna teach me how to swing a sword? but first I must put on a pink tutu and do a pirroete? No Problem. See, I understand that spin will help my speed draw. :D

:asian:

Its the open mind baby...gotta have one to excel in the arts.

[Yari]

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz


Its the open mind baby...gotta have one to excel in the arts.

Like sweet music in my ears!

Why is it you have to get old to understand this?


/Yari

[yilisifu]

Respect and courtesy used to be common bywords in the old days of martial arts......

"May not a bow be compared to the true Dao? That which is low is made high and that which was high is brought down."

[Mike Clarke]

I agree, you have to have an open mind if you want to recieve an education. You also have to make sure you don't fill it too quickly with the 'easy' stuff [the obvious]. If you do, you'll miss out on sooooooooooooo much !

Mike.

[TkdWarrior]

well Bows happen before class(lineup) n after class(line up)...
if we(we n our teacher) meet outside dojo, we do bow n then sometimes handshake, everything goes...
Respect should be in heart bows does nothing...
wat the use when u bow n then thinking "BS" i'll better dont bow..
may be i don't even go to that class which makes me think "BS"
-TkdWarrior-

[RyuShiKan]

Good question…………Why Bow?

When bowing to the photo of some teacher (possibly dead) you are showing respect and gratitude for someone that went before you in the “Way”.

When bowing to other students you are showing respect for them. (Obviously)

When bowing to a senior you are doing the same as when bowing to a photo…. showing respect and gratitude for someone that went before you in the “Way”.

Bowing to the mats????? Don’t know about that one………

Being raised Catholic has helped me understand a lot about the rituals of dojos to some degree.
Catholics genuflect before entering the pew, and so on……….

Why do we show respect in the dojo?

Just think of the opposite were to happen (i.e. being disrespectful)……more often than not tempers would rule and people would get hurt.
That’s one of the things that separates a dojo from a gang of thugs.

Why bow to show respect?

Certain Asian customs come with doing an Asian art. Oddly enough Chinese do not bow so much……Japanese, on the other hand bow all the time and often for ridiculous reasons. Other Asian countries often feel Japanese are not sincere in their politeness because of this, and several other factors. I tend to agree.
Japanese have what is known as “tatemae” which might be called “obligatory politeness” and doesn’t have an ounce of sincerity in it. They use it when in certain situations that require such protocol.

[KennethKu]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan .....Japanese have what is known as “tatemae” which might be called “obligatory politeness” and doesn’t have an ounce of sincerity in it. They use it when in certain situations that require such protocol.

I can assure you that is an Asian thing, rather than a Japanese way. They will seldom say no to you eventhough they are dead set against it or impossible to deliver. *sigh* They tend to take offence at you when you are simply being honest in telling them you can't help.

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by KennethKu
I can assure you that is an Asian thing, rather than a Japanese way. They will seldom say no to you eventhough they are dead set against it or impossible to deliver. *sigh* They tend to take offence at you when you are simply being honest in telling them you can't help.

What your talking about isn't really "tatemae".
I have lived in China several years and have done business with them and know what your talking about.

"Tatemae" is very unique to Japanese culture. It's much more complex than what you were referring to.

[chufeng]

Bowing to the mats????? Don’t know about that one………


It is a preparation for learning. It reminds one to be humble when learning...if you step onto the mat with a full cup, you may miss an important lesson that day...

It is not religious...and you are not bowing to the mat...you are reminding yourself to remain open to new learning...

:asian:
chufeng

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by chufeng
It is a preparation for learning. It reminds one to be humble when learning...if you step onto the mat with a full cup, you may miss an important lesson that day...

It is not religious...and you are not bowing to the mat...you are reminding yourself to remain open to new learning...

:asian:
chufeng

[qizmoduis]

Originally posted by KennethKu
I can assure you that is an Asian thing, rather than a Japanese way. They will seldom say no to you eventhough they are dead set against it or impossible to deliver. *sigh* They tend to take offence at you when you are simply being honest in telling them you can't help.

Hahah! I can attest to this from personal experience. My wife is Vietnamese, and the "little white lie" is part and parcel of the culture. It's really a matter of principle to them, and her. That principle clashes greatly with mine, which is one of directness and honesty. American culture would generally find this propensity to lie about many things in order to make others happy or to not lose respect immoral. But she finds my forthrightness and honesty (not that I'm perfect, obviously) to be immoral.

One of the odd consequences of this was that I was responsibile for cancelling magazine subscriptions because she couldn't refuse the telemarketers. It took a few years to convince her to let the answering machine handle it. Once she was on the phone, she was unable to hang up until she had made the other person happy. It was my job to make them unhappy. I've managed to scrape away some of that politeness over the years :rofl: and now she's almost as rude as I am.

As to bowing: vietnamese also bow, but not nearly to the extent that japanese do. The bows are perfunctory at best, small gestures of respect for elders and others. Their equivalent to bowing is built into their modes of address, which can be downright obfuscatory to us westerners, especially when translated (indirectly) to english. I'm, apparently, Uncle #2 to the children of my wife's older brother, but the daughter of my wife's older sister calls me something entirely different. It isn't even that simple, because the nieces and nephews have different modes for me depending on their gender and on their own relative ages and all that. Somehow, they keep it straight. I'm no real expert in vietnamese culture, however. My experience is limited to my participation with my in-laws.

So, taking this back to the bowing in class issue: let's replace the japanese class (with bowing) with a vietnamese class (with modes of address and a slight bow as a greeting). Being that modes of address in vietnamese culture and bowing in japanese culture are cultural constructs evolved over generations to help members of those cultures relate to each other, similar to western gestures of handshakes, salutes, curtsies, etc., why would some object to the japanese bow on religious grounds, but not the handshake or the modes of address? If I use the correct mode of address to greet my father-in-law (which I can't pronounce, but that's another problem), would it be a violation of my religious principles (assuming I had any)? Would it be a violation of those principles if a particular mode of address was required between student and teacher in the hypothetical vietnamese class? Importantly, if it is a violation of your religious principles, why do you think you would have the right to force your religious objections down the throats of everyone else, especially in what is a private forum.

The training effectiveness of modes of address, bowing, etc, is completely and utterly irrelevant to this discussion. If the rules require bowing, then so be it. Frankly, I'm sick and tired of provincial idiots using the shield of "religious objections" as a war cry against anything that doesn't fit perfectly into their miniscule world-views. It's pathetic.

[Michael Billings]

As you can tell from my previous posts in other threads, I am a proponent of perpetuating some of the traditions inherent in any of the Arts, as part of the Art. Just because we are in, most of us, a Western Culture, does this give us the right to change the history and traditions handed down as part of our Art? This may sound really silly coming from an American Kenpoist, given the brief history of our System. Of course I came out of a traditional Japanese system and studied Taekwondo and some Chinese systems under the Chinese Kenpo umbrella.

If I remember Mr. Parker correctly, who was the "Founder" of our system, we salute people, not bow to them. We bow before our creator. Given he was a devout Mormon, AND was the "Founder" of the system, that was his choice. JudoKid's instructor was not the founder, but rather an instructor, albeit a good instructor, whose values are different. Does that mean he can autonomously change a tradition handed down for generations?

Mr. Parker did bow at times, but this was coming on and off the mat. He may have nodded his head at other instructors who did not have the salute as part of their system, but he wanted to acknowledge and not be disrespectful in their house. Mr. Contatser traveled with him extensively could clarify this. I chose to follow this "reasonable man" approach. It is not a matter of my faith, which is strong. The bow, as a cultural handshake or sign of respect, is appropriate and deserved. Remember in Eastern cultures there are different degrees of bowing, from the truly thankful or respectfully, to one almost demeaning and condescending - or reprimanding and sarcastic. Shaking hands, especially if you do it with the left hand, as Bob Dole had to do, would have been a mortal insult in some cultures.

The Chinese, while not bowing as much, do use the salute as almost a wave, handshake or bow. The Martial Arts from the southeast islands, Silat, Kali, etc. have a traditional "bow", the Muay Thai kick boxers have rituals before matches, and often before trainings.

You can westernize an art and increase its content and skill set, but should you lose where it comes from as you do this? Should the traditions inherent in the source of the Art be laid aside? This seems incredibly egotistical, rude, and disrespectful. Once again, look at what a reasonable and prudent man would do. Do you want to cause controversy, and if so why? Publicity, attention, dissents within an Association, etc.

There is usually a reason, then the reason behind the reason. It is a complex world we live in and nothing is quite as black and white as JudoKid presented on the McDojo thread. Time, seasoning, sophistication - we all lacked these at one time, hopefully he will gain them as he turns into JudoMan.

Respectfully - my opinion,
-Michael
:asian:

[Jill666]

I bow as a matter of respect- having been brought up by an Army man, I'm accustomed to nominal demonstrations of respect, if not for the man, than for what the man represents.

I don't find that in conflict with my personal feelings, or beliefs. (Actually, I don't have any religious convictions, and don't really care if there is a higher power or not. I figure I'll find out when I'm dead). Bowing does not mean I agree 100% with what is being taught, just that I appreciate the time my instructor has put into the art and his willingness to share his knowlege with me. If I have a disagreement, I can still voice it. I bow to my classmates, who are on this journey with me and are willing to let me pummel and twist their bodies and challenge their will. There is something in that to admire.

If I meet these people on the street, I don't bow. I shake hands or nod, that being the appropriate response to the situation. Once I bumped into a classmate at the mall and he bowed. I nodded back.

[J-kid]

I get to be the bad guy cause i dont like bowing :o

I will have to dig up some old papaers


THIS AGAIN (******)

[TKDman]

I think the best way to show respect is to earn it by setting a good example and listening to instructions attentively.

Bowing is just a tradition. I supose it is the most simple way of showing respect to your peers. In my opinion you shouldn't have to show respect falsely, you should earn it over a long period of time.

[Old Warrior]

"How do you show respect?"

There is a difference between showing respect and complying with the customs of the place where you may be.

A judge is called "Your Honor" whether or not you think he/she is an incompetent or a crook.

My closest friend is a highly decorated former US Marine, who for years has been my training partner. He has earned my respect.

There is nothing demeaning about following social customs. Respect comes a different place within me.

[KennethKu]

Heck, there are just as many instructors that don't particularly put their students first, and yet demand respect and all.

[Hollywood1340]

Originally posted by Old Warrior
"How do you show respect?"

There is a difference between showing respect and complying with the customs of the place where you may be.

A judge is called "Your Honor" whether or not you think he/she is an incompetent or a crook.

My closest friend is a highly decorated former US Marine, who for years has been my training partner. He has earned my respect.

There is nothing demeaning about following social customs. Respect comes a different place within me.

Exellent point Old Warrior :asian:

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by chufeng
It is a preparation for learning. It reminds one to be humble when learning...if you step onto the mat with a full cup, you may miss an important lesson that day...

It is not religious...and you are not bowing to the mat...you are reminding yourself to remain open to new learning...

:asian:
chufeng

I was just being sarcastic. I was always under the impression I was bowing to the training place in general.....not specifically the mats.

[chufeng]

RyuShiKan,


I was just being sarcastic. I was always under the impression I was bowing to the training place in general.....not specifically the mats.

But you gave me an excellent opportunity to put my post up...thanks.

:asian:
chufeng

[RyuShiKan]

I have seen some Chinese MA schools in the US that have adopted Japanese dojo traditions like bowing when entering the dojo and so on.
I didn’t see as much bowing in Chinese MA schools (which are quite often outside) when I was in China.

Just out of curiosity do any of the people on here that do Chinese arts bow using the Japanese reasoning for it or for the same situations?

[fringe_dweller]

In hkd we are taught from day one that we are unable to train on our own and anything which allows us to train deserves our respect. Hence we don't throw targets or shields on the florr, we place them carefully. At the end of the class we form a circle and bow to each other (collectively) whilst saying cumsah hum nida (forgive the poor attempt) which in essence means thankyou for training with me. In the same sense we bow to our instructor.

Respectfully,

[chufeng]

RyuShiKan,

Yes, YiLiQuan schools/clubs do use the Japanese model of running class, to include bowing. Our teacher, although primarily trained in Chinese arts, has dan rank in KyukushinKai and ShitoRyu...He is close friends with some fairly senior JKA folks (I know you don't give them much credence, but some of them have a good bit of skill)...at any rate, he uses a Japanese model to teach Chinese boxing...and it works.

I open class (if I have three or more students present) with a formal bowing in...and close class with the same. If there is one or two students, I use an informal class approach...in both instances, the training that occurs after class opens is the same.

:asian:
chufeng

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by fringe_dweller
In hkd we are taught from day one that we are unable to train on our own and anything which allows us to train deserves our respect. Hence we don't throw targets or shields on the florr, we place them carefully. At the end of the class we form a circle and bow to each other (collectively) whilst saying cumsah hum nida (forgive the poor attempt) which in essence means thankyou for training with me. In the same sense we bow to our instructor.

Respectfully,


Not be rude but from all that I have read and seen about Hapkido it is basically imported Aikido/DaitoRyu from Japan with a few Koreanisms thrown in.

[Kirk]

I can't remember where I heard this originally, and it was quite
some time ago ...

Are there various forms of bowing in Japan? Meaning various
placement of feet, and various depths of the bow, etc?

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by chufeng
Yes, YiLiQuan schools/clubs do use the Japanese model of running class, to include bowing. Our teacher, although primarily trained in Chinese arts, has dan rank in KyukushinKai and ShitoRyu...

Japanese arts do tend to be more structured with ranks, and formalities. I don't know if that is good or bad.



Originally posted by chufeng
He is close friends with some fairly senior JKA folks (I know you don't give them much credence, but some of them have a good bit of skill)..

I think people misunderstand me about my feelings toward the JKA/JKF……and it’s my fault for sure.
The JKA/JKF are good at what they do, which is modern, sport oriented, non-contact tournament Karate and I give them credit for that.
However, they are not what they imply to the general public and that is “Traditional Karate”. That has been my whole problem with them from the start coupled with some of the bloated egos I encountered while there. (Yes, I actually trained there for a while)

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Kirk
I can't remember where I heard this originally, and it was quite
some time ago ...

Are there various forms of bowing in Japan? Meaning various
placement of feet, and various depths of the bow, etc?

Here is a page on Japanese etiquette.

http://www.ogasawara-ryu.com/


How to Bow:

http://www.ogasawara-ryu.com/en/indexe.html

[Chronuss]

at our studio we bow when we enter the door to show respect to the place where we are able to learn, train, and practice. there is also a line about ten feet away from the door; shoes are not to be worn on the feet past this line, unless mat shoes. we bow before we cross this line to show respect to the training floor. as for people, we salute people. if there is a black belt in the room, we bow when entering the room then turn and salute the person. as it has been told to me, and as Mr. Billings said before me, Mr. Parker did not bow to people, he chose to salute, which is carried over from Chinese arts. if a person in class is chosen to demonstrate a technique with an instructor, after the technique is demonstrated the student salutes the instructor and the instructor to the student.

[fringe_dweller]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan
Not be rude but from all that I have read and seen about Hapkido it is basically imported Aikido/DaitoRyu from Japan with a few Koreanisms thrown in.

A few different styles of hapkido have evolved and there a few differing views on it's history but basicaly Young-Sool Choi studied in some way shape or form under Sokaku Takeda as did Morihei Ueshiba (who founded Aikido). Ji Han Jae (who founded Sin Moo Hapkido) studied under GM Choi and added a number of kicks to the system and thus the art is as I study it today.

If I have erred in any of this I am sure someone with more knowledge will be happy to advise differently.

As I hear it told, Hapkido and Aikido are both circular arts although hkd uses smaller circles while Aikido uses larger ones. Also Aikido doesn't incorporate the number/range of kicks in hkd. This is not to say either one is better, just highlighting what I know the differences to be.

Respectfully,

[Kiz Bell]

A couple of posts here piqued my interest.

Firstly, salutes in Kempo. What do you mean by "saluting"? Do you mean a snappy, military style salute, or are you describing something else all together? In MJER iaijutsu, the "salute" is gripping the end of the tsuba at the end of the kata. It is done right at the end of the kata, it's quite subtle and does not replace the bow, it's just in addition to it. I have no problem with bowing but I'd feel pretty wierd doing a military style salute to someone. I mean, if I was in a Kempo dojo and everyone else was saluting, I'd do it too to be polite, I'd just feel pretty wierd about it, that's all.

And what about the thing with the flags in the dojo? I've been in quite a few dojo and have never come across the bowing to the flags of the style's founding country, or the country that the dojo is physically located in, or any other country for that matter. If I went overseas to train in, let's say, America, I'd really wouldn't want to be required to bow to the "star and stipes". I'm there to train, not indulge in nationalist fervour.

Please don't get me wrong, I'm not bagging either of these practices, these are just my personal feelings on the matter.

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by Michael Billings

There is usually a reason, then the reason behind the reason. It is a complex world we live in and nothing is quite as black and white as JudoKid presented on the McDojo thread. Time, seasoning, sophistication - we all lacked these at one time, hopefully he will gain them as he turns into JudoMan.[/B]

Gotta say that your post in sum, and most especially the section I have quoted, is one of the best things I have heard in a while... You hit the nail square on the head.

To pick on Judo-kid just a little more (he's tough, he can take it! :D ), and to use him as a general example, when young, dumb and full of piss and vinegar, people tend to eschew such anachronisms like courtesy and respect in their rebellious drive to strike a name for themselves, to identify themselves as seperate from the group. I know I did it (I used to relish wearing my "Have a Nice Day A$$hole" t-shirt to school and tell all the teachers I hated to "have a nice day."), and I am sure that everyone else here is guilty of a little of the same. It is normal and natural.

But then, after a time, age and experience season us sufficiently to educate us to the necessity of such trivial conventions like politeness and respect. We learn that it is one of the only currencies of human contact worth trading in.

Even within MMA circles, respect is one of the most important things a person can earn. Good skills earn respect. Good bearing and sportsmanship earn respect. They just display it differently.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

[J-kid]

I do have respect, Just because i dont like bowing. Gives you no right to question my morals and my respect.

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by Judo-kid
I do have respect, Just because i dont like bowing. Gives you no right to question my morals and my respect.

Who questioned your morals and level of respect? Your behavior here has been at times refreshingly polite and at others blatantly discourteous and downright rude. I judge people based on displayed characteristics rather than preconceived notions and stereotypes.

In fact, I thought I was coming to your defense to a certain degree by commenting that MMAists do in fact show their respect, just in ways that are not culturally specific.

I think the point others have been making is that very often if you study a MA from another culture/country, you should be prepared to accept some cultural baggage that comes along with it. If you don't like the baggage, go somewhere else. Sometimes getting rid of the baggage does more damage than it does good...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

[J-kid]

Agreed/
It all depends really.
There are many variables.
I find the questions are harder to find then the answers at times.

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by Judo-kid
Agreed/
It all depends really.
There are many variables.
I find the questions are harder to find then the answers at times.

See. There you go. Acting all mature, grown up and insightful, right when I was wondering if you had completely lost whatever it was that made me halfway respect you in the first place...

My respect for you, however much there is, has been developed by your comments that display insight and understanding. The lack of respect for you has come from your juvenile and inflammatory remarks. I, for one, think you are probably on the right road. You may well reach your goal, who am I to say?

What I do know, though, is that you aren't there yet... And there may be a few tricks that an old, flabby, out of shape, greying, veteran soldier with arthritis and a few herniated discs can still show a pup like you... :D

Gambarimasu. And thanks for renewing my respect for you.
:asian:

[Doc]

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz
Thanks guys.

Seriously, I made it up. Had many of those same thoughts when I was just starting out. Couldn't understand why things were the way they were. Had a long conversation with Ingmar from Sweden... he showed me about a half dozen techniches that flowed right out of the traditional kenpo salutation. I was like, "That is useful? Damn!" He also showed me some offencive stuff right out of Short 1.

3 years of training, a casual knowledge of 40+ arts, and some exposure to the real movers and shakers has opened my eyes. Its onething to train in the one room school house...going to Harvards a whole different world.

Too many times folks get involved, have the blinders on, refuse to bend and lose out one whole worlds of things.

Bowing....I rarely bow. I don't train in arts that do alot of it. We bow at the begining of class as a group, and at the end, then shake hands. Nothing fancy. Now, if I got the chance to train in some of the arts I'm interested in would I? Yes. I have no problems following the customs of different arts. Maybe its the larger experiences I've had traveling around the US, or just a rejection of the 'mental constipation' too many folks suffer from.

Youre gonna teach me how to swing a sword? but first I must put on a pink tutu and do a pirroete? No Problem. See, I understand that spin will help my speed draw. :D

:asian:

Its the open mind baby...gotta have one to excel in the arts.

I'm going to have to talk to Ingmar about spreading around what I've taught him.

[rmcrobertson]

When I was a kid, going to grade school and junior high back in the 50s and 60s, we all had to face the flag and recite the Pledge of Allegiance every morning--in homeroom, we had to recite the Lord's Prayer (no, I was in a public school the whole time)--evenings, when I was on the base (Ft. Detrick; at the time, one of our two main experimental stations for the development of biological weapons), we had to get out of the pool and stand at attention while they played taps--when I was in Boy Scouts, well, you get the picture.

Now, a lot of Americans bow to money and to capitalism. They bow to shabby little tin gods like Deepak Chopra, Susie Ormond, Rush Limbaugh, and to cheesy little organizations too numerous to name. They bow to their mean-spirited boss at their pointless, drudgery job. They bow to politicians. They bow to things like their car...you see where I'm going with this.

And we bow to fourth-rate, bonehead ideas like NLP...Scientology....astrology...you take my point.

And we revere groups in the martial arts which not only glorify violence, but actively sell it.

And we're complaining about bowing on and off the mat? About saluting our fellow martial artists?

[J-kid]

And who do i bow down to?

[J-kid]

That post is a little off subject, We gonna look at globle bowing now?

[rmcrobertson]

Why not make a global issue out of it? You did, right from the start: brought in Christianity. Others brought up such matters as nationality--so why not?

Or let me ask it another way: aren't there things, and people, you bow to in some sense?

I should note that I will not respond to any impolite post. You wish to discuss things with those of us who've been around a little longer; great. You wish to argue: excellent. But the price of admission, for me at least, is good manners.

Thank you for your arguments.

[J-kid]

Everyone dos realize i am the only one on this side of the line.

But sure lets start it up. FIRE IN THE HOLE:bomb: :bomb: :nuke:

[Seig]

Originally posted by Judo-kid
And who do i bow down to?
Only you can answer that.

[J-kid]

:confused:

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1
…….To pick on Judo-kid just a little more (he's tough, he can take it! :D ), and to use him as a general example, when young, dumb and full of piss and vinegar, people tend to eschew such anachronisms like courtesy and respect in their rebellious drive to strike a name for themselves, to identify themselves as seperate from the group. I know I did it (I used to relish wearing my "Have a Nice Day A$$hole" t-shirt to school and tell all the teachers I hated to "have a nice day."), and I am sure that everyone else here is guilty of a little of the same. It is normal and natural.


Yiliquan1,

I think you and I talked about my days at Catholic school before and what ingenious ways they have for curbing inappropriate behavior.
We had many people come to our school like Judo-Kid………the attitude lasted about halfway through the first class of their first day of school.
Having a pissed off Jesuit as a teacher you soon learn just exactly what Hell really is.

[KennethKu]

Etiquette has nothing to do with fighting skills. Martial art is scientific conditioning and training of the human body and mind. I don't see why foreign etiquette is being made such a big deal. Westerners, in general, have this misconception that there is something unique in Asian culture that can cure the societal ills in Western culture. And Asians have the same illusions too. The fact is, NO. Asian societies have the same problems and plagues that they cannot resolve.

In Asia, when you go to class, you have to stand up and bow to your teacher when he/she enters and leaves the classroom. You are required to bow and greet your teachers whereever and whenever you run into them, for the rest of your life, even after you are no longer a student. Have this made a society of polite, well educated, well behaved, responsible citizens? HECK NO! NOT A CHANCE!! So, bowing does horse piss for discipline and what not.

I don't see why in America, the good ol value of honesty, hardwork, keeping your words, be respectful, the ideas of fair play and equality, doing the right things, patriotism, extra courtesy to women and children, etc etc etc, are anything to be ashamed of or inferrior. Then again, may be I am just of a dying breed.

[Chronuss]

Originally posted by Kiz Bell
Firstly, salutes in Kempo. What do you mean by "saluting"? Do you mean a snappy, military style salute, or are you describing something else all together?


it is not a military salute, also, I believe that most EPAK students spell it Kenpo. a salute in EPAK goes a little something like this, and any additions or ommisions from any of the elders and ranking people on the board, feel free to correct me :):

with feet together, the right hand comes up to about chest level and forms a fist. this symbolizes the warrior: the power and the skill of the art. the left hand comes up to the right fist and "cups" over the fist. this can be done one of two ways: the left hand "covers" the right fist, or with the left hand open but fingers tight, can be perpindicular to the flat of the knuckles. the left hand symbolizes the scholar: the knowledge or the ethics of the art; "I have the skill (the right cleched fist); however, I have the knowledge of when and when not to use it (the left "cupped" hand)." in proper forming the salute, the elbows are anchored, the wrists straight, and should form a triangle.

as you can realize, this is slightly different than a formal military salute. :)

[rmcrobertson]

Let's look at NOT bowing, and the removal of all the little things in martial arts--the trivial, unnecessary, pointless things that get in the way of real men, fighting. You know--leaving the locker room a mess, leaving the mats around, leaving your shoes in front of the door, walking on the mat in your shoes, walking through other people's lessons, etc. etc...starting fights at tournaments, screaming at six-years olds to "kill 'em! kill 'em," then screaming at the ref when you don't get what you want, swaggering across the mat in front of seniors at public exhibitions, unrealistic and arrogant self-defense exhibitions, bragging about all your fights, "for real...," well, you get the picture.

Oh, and certainly let's not forget the refusal of civility visible on the Forums. Or the tendency to personal aattacks, whenever we encounter disagreement.

Every single thing on that list, I've seen about forty times, or read about, and certainly not just in kenpo. Hm.

At first, I bowed to the mat and tried to be polite because I was told to. Then, I bowed to help focus my attention. Then, I bowed out of respect to the art, to my predecessors in it, to the art's history.

I also note--maybe it's just So Cal, but I doubt it--that year by year, people seem to display a little less respect for each other. I teach for a living, and year by year, students behave more like disrespectful fools. I don't think this issue about bowing just has to do with martial arts--I think it's a general sign of disrespect for anything that contradicts the status quo, and narcissism elevated to a personal principle, in capitalist society. Chaucer was right: "manners maketh man."

This is not to say that mindless obeisance is good. It's interesting to me that some of the very folks who aargued for addressing seniors as, "master," now seem to be opposed to a little bow/salute now and then.

It's just manners. And I repeat my earlier point: lots of people in this society bow to all sorts of things and people and ideas that don't deserve it.

Here's an idea: the assumption seems to be that bowing is hidebound tradition, and not-bowing is the freedom of the new. I think that's precisely backwards--the "radical," argument is the one that's conservative, safe, perfectly in line with dull, middle-class values.

Thanks for the discussion.

[KennethKu]

What you have described is the bigger social-cultural problem with the society.

If we want students to be disciplined, respectful and courteous, we can instill those and demand them to act accordingly. We don't need to borrow Asian protocol to achieve that. I am not against being disciplined, respectful and courteous. Our military trains recruits for that. They don't need to bow or knee to achieve that. Bowing is artificial. I am not against it. I just don't attach too much meaning into it.

[white belt]

If a prospective student refuses to bow when entering and leaving the DoJang, I take that as a sign of arrogance and refusal to conform with rules in general. Same position on bowing across the ring to your sparring partner. If that simple rule can't properly be followed with any consistancy, would anyone on this forum want their MOM, WIFE or SISTER to partner up and spar with that STRANGER over someone who CAN follow rules and demonstrate selfless respect? Actions, or lack of, are more warning indicators to help keep order at a training facility. Religion is no excuse. Bowing at my school has NOTHING to do with religion. If a person bucks this rule, then what rule is next? The no groin kick rule or no nock out rule? I show them the door regardless of their flimsy excuse. I don't want the students who conform to basic principles suffer later for somebody elses lack of effort in the realm of respect. I have trained at a facility where there was no bowing. There were people training there with "behavior" issues. Most were very nice though. All it takes is ONE. I have a good friend who lost his ability to conceive a child due to ONE of these types who bent the rules. He almost died while the doctors were draining his testicles, one of which swelled to the size of a grapefruit. Bowing is no guarantee, but it is another potential aid in seeing what may happen.
And who might do it!

white belt

[Chronuss]

...the doctors were draining his testicles, one of which swelled to the size of a grapefruit.


:eek: um.....ouch. that makes me cringe even without the mental picture...

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by KennethKu
Etiquette has nothing to do with fighting skills.

No, it has to do with discipline.


Originally posted by KennethKu
Martial art is scientific conditioning and training of the human body and mind.

If that’s all you look for in it then that’s all you will get from it.


Originally posted by KennethKu
I don't see why foreign etiquette is being made such a big deal. Westerners, in general, have this misconception that there is something unique in Asian culture that can cure the societal ills in Western culture. And Asians have the same illusions too. The fact is, NO. Asian societies have the same problems and plagues that they cannot resolve.

No country is without flaw.
However, in Japan people can generally walk down any street in the wee hours of the morning or night without fear of being assaulted in some way. Which is pretty amazing.



Originally posted by KennethKu
In Asia, when you go to class, you have to stand up and bow to your teacher when he/she enters and leaves the classroom. You are required to bow and greet your teachers whereever and whenever you run into them, for the rest of your life, even after you are no longer a student.

Really?
I was a schoolteacher in the Japanese Education system for many years and disagree.
What are you basing your opinions on?


Originally posted by KennethKu
Have this made a society of polite, well educated, well behaved, responsible citizens? HECK NO! NOT A CHANCE!! So, bowing does horse piss for discipline and what not.

Who knows but it doesn’t seem to do it any harm either. Judging from crime statistics from the US and say Japan………Japan has less crime…..and less violent crime specifically.



Originally posted by KennethKu
I don't see why in America, the good ol value of honesty, hardwork, keeping your words, be respectful, the ideas of fair play and equality, doing the right things, patriotism, extra courtesy to women and children, etc etc etc, are anything to be ashamed of or inferrior. Then again, may be I am just of a dying breed.

It’s not.
However, America has the highest murder rate for any industrialized nation in the world………as well as the most serial killers……..and Indiana has produced the most serial killers of any state.

[TKDman]

After reading this thread and seeing all the various viewpoints, I now know why Bubbas everywhere open up new martial arts schools. HAIL THE ETERNAL MCDOJO.

[Kiz Bell]

with feet together, the right hand comes up to about chest level and forms a fist. this symbolizes the warrior: the power and the skill of the art. the left hand comes up to the right fist and "cups" over the fist. this can be done one of two ways: the left hand "covers" the right fist, or with the left hand open but fingers tight, can be perpindicular to the flat of the knuckles. the left hand symbolizes the scholar: the knowledge or the ethics of the art; "I have the skill (the right cleched fist); however, I have the knowledge of when and when not to use it (the left "cupped" hand)." in proper forming the salute, the elbows are anchored, the wrists straight, and should form a triangle.

as you can realize, this is slightly different than a formal military salute. :) [/B]

Thank you for the info. I'd be totally cool with that. Although I am not in the military myself, I do come from a military background and would've found it a bit odd doing if I had to do the military style salute.

[Kiz Bell]

Originally posted by KennethKu
[B]Etiquette has nothing to do with fighting skills.
No, but it does have a lot to do with interacting with your fellow classmates. Would you want someone to stand there picking their nose and eating it moments before you sparred with them? That's nothing more than a breach of etiquette, isn't it?


You are required to bow and greet your teachers whereever and whenever you run into them, for the rest of your life, even after you are no longer a student.
Yes, but then they're pretty much bowing to everyone, aren't they? Isn't bowing a fairly common greeting/courtesy over there? I can't really see why this is any different from Western etiquette which requires one to say "Hello, how are you?" and smile politely to your ex-teachers, even if they did give you hell in maths.

[KennethKu]

Originally posted by Kiz Bell
No, but it does have a lot to do with interacting with your fellow classmates. Would you want someone to stand there picking their nose and eating it moments before you sparred with them? That's nothing more than a breach of etiquette, isn't it?


Yes, but then they're pretty much bowing to everyone, aren't they? Isn't bowing a fairly common greeting/courtesy over there? I can't really see why this is any different from Western etiquette which requires one to say "Hello, how are you?" and smile politely to your ex-teachers, even if they did give you hell in maths.

1. Bowing is just an artifial protocol. Just b/c you don't bow, does not mean you have to act like a jerk. You can still conduct yourself with respect and courtesy.

2. In Japan, bowing is pretty much universal. But I was referring to is the artificial protocol imposed on a teacher-student interaction. All sound good in theory and students at school are forced to follow the protocol and pretty much so when they are outside. If you don't greet your teachers properly, you are scum.
The thing is, respect has to be genuine, not artificially imposed. Protocol would not get you genuine respect. So despite all the protocol and indoctrination, the kids will respect the teachers they can earn their respect and pretty much ridicule the rest. But that doesn't have much to do with what bowing is concerned here.

In anycase, I did stated earlier that I view bowing no different from shaking hands etc, and would not have problem with it. Just that I don't attach too many onto it. Who knows. May be by attaching some protocol with foreign flavour in it, you get the kids' attention and provide some sense of regimental training, which in turns help instill discipline. Heck No one has ever being harmed by bowing.

[KennethKu]

Originally posted by Kiz Bell
Thank you for the info. I'd be totally cool with that. Although I am not in the military myself, I do come from a military background and would've found it a bit odd doing if I had to do the military style salute.

Heck, when I read that description of Kenpo salute, I almost laughed. EPAK stole or borrowed that salute or greeting from the ancient Chinese! The Chinese have been doing that for since who know when. It is in their literature and history documents. Ed Parker Sr must have watched too many Chinese movies, lol.

[Kiz Bell]

Originally posted by KennethKu
Heck, when I read that description of Kenpo salute, I almost laughed. EPAK stole or borrowed that salute or greeting from the ancient Chinese! The Chinese have been doing that for since who know when. It is in their literature and history documents. Ed Parker Sr must have watched too many Chinese movies, lol.

Well, to be honest so did I, but out of respect for the Kenpoists on this forum I restrained myself. Actually, I was thinking he got it out of Star Trek, it sounds a lot like a Klingon salute. (Right fist clenched over the heart.) Though whoever invented that one must have got it from the Chinese too.

So I suppose it just comes down whether Ed Parker Sr was a fan of Star Trek or Hong Kong cinema.

[Kiz Bell]

Originally posted by KennethKu

In anycase, I did stated earlier that I view bowing no different from shaking hands etc, and would not have problem with it. Just that I don't attach too many onto it. Who knows. May be by attaching some protocol with foreign flavour in it, you get the kids' attention and provide some sense of regimental training, which in turns help instill discipline. Heck No one has ever being harmed by bowing.

I think we're on the same page here. It's just that some people, and not just kids either, do need an artifical protocol to remind them to act like decent human beings. Sad, but true.

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Kiz Bell
I think we're on the same page here. It's just that some people, and not just kids either, do need an artifical protocol to remind them to act like decent human beings. Sad, but true.

Kind of an odd comment from someone that claims to study iaijutsu/iaido, jodo.

[Doc]

Originally posted by Kiz Bell
Well, to be honest so did I, but out of respect for the Kenpoists on this forum I restrained myself. Actually, I was thinking he got it out of Star Trek, it sounds a lot like a Klingon salute. (Right fist clenched over the heart.) Though whoever invented that one must have got it from the Chinese too.

So I suppose it just comes down whether Ed Parker Sr was a fan of Star Trek or Hong Kong cinema.

The answer is a simple one, NEITHER and BOTH. Yes, he was a Star Trek fan and we spent a lot of time at the Sing Lee Theater in Los Angeles's Chinatown before the "chop sockey" movies were dubbed and popular.

However, (for those unaware) Ed Parker came from the Chinese arts and studied extensively with Chinese Grandmasters. He published a book "Secrets of Chinese Karate" in 1962' to educate the public of the true origin of the codified martial arts and "karate."

The book was so well written, the opening episodes from the "Kung-fu" T.V. series were taken right from the book. The book also included the salutation, and Ed Parker made no doubt regarding it's origin. In fact the American Kenpo salute, properly performed contains elements of the old Chinese and the new Chinese so it is actually 50/50 with the 2 halves being reversed depending on what is being done. The 2-man Set or "Book Set" is also in that same text.

What follows is a pasted explanation from an old Ed Parker manual and some comments.

THE AMERICAN KENPO SALUTATION:

A. History and Meaning: The American Kenpo Salutation is a combination of the "old and the new.” The initial part of our salute honors the originators of the art, the Chinese. Prior to the establishment of what was called "Shao-lin," an open left hand resting on a clenched right fist was used as a salutation or salute just before the commencement of a set or form. There were several meanings to this gesture:

(1) Respect to the originator of the particular system, including all who had studied before him, with him, and presently study under him. (2) Respect to those who would observe the movements. (3) Respect to both scholars and warriors who were practitioners alike, since the left hand (open) of this salutation represented the scholar and the right hand (clenched), the man who actually executed the science.

During the period of the Shao-lin in the Ch'ing Dynasty, the meaning of the gesture changed when two additional movements were added. The change was that the left hand represented the sun, the right hand the moon. With this change, the combination of sun and moon represented the Chinese character Ming, thus meaning "revolutionary defenders for the cause of the Ming restoration." The two additional movements that were added to the sun and the moon were formed by placing the back of the hands together with both palms out. The fingers at this point were in a claw-like-fashion and raised to the chest and heart. This gesture meant,

"We are against foreign invasion and our hearts are for China." The last movement was to clench both hands and draw them to the sides of the waist. This pulling gesture meant, "By pulling and working together we can take our country back." The Hungs, who were secret triad societies in China, perpetuated these movements. In short, "Scholar and warrior, united together, back to back, pulling together, to defend against the foreign intruders.”

The first part of the salutation was preserved in recognition and respect to the traditions set forth by the Chinese. The concluding portion of the salutation was added to tie in the heritage of the "old" with the logic of the "new" and innovative fighting science.

"There is a misconception this came from Mitose. These movements have always existed in one form or another in the Chinese, and were not new. Although Mitose did come to use the hand gestures, they were usually used independent of each other, and not in the inclusive pattern those of American kenpo are familiar with.

The second part of the salutation interprets as an explanation of the original Kenpo Creed by Ed Parker that does not use the word "karate" which was inadvertently recited later."

I come to you with empty hands; (I am friendly and unarmed)

I have no weapons. (Both hands are place together as they form the shape of a triangle.)

I now cover my weapon, my fist which is my treasure, for I do not wish to use it. (Your left open hand is used to conceal your right clenched fist.)

Now that I am being forced to use my weapon, to momentarily become an animal, I pray for forgiveness for what I may do. (Both hands are placed together as if praying.)

The salutation ends by outwardly circling the clawing hands and arms in an outward clawing movement coming to attention. (Warding away all evil in my presence and letting nothing deter me from my goal and moral convictions)

"The reasons for the Scholar/Warrior analogy are important. Within the Chinese Culture there was a very strong caste system in place. The truly educated were privileged and considered too "valuable" to fight in wars and conflict. Therefore it was the "warrior" who fought but he was directed by the "scholar" in the ways of Martial Science. That is, the warrior didn't always understand the methods of his fighting, all he knew was that it "worked." The scholars devised the methods and manner of the execution of the training and the implementation of the "fighting sciences," while the "warriors" went forth and performed as instructed.

The combination of the "warrior and scholar" in a singular person was rare. Not because the scholar couldn't fight, (after all they had first hand knowledge,) but simply because the knowledge was so valuable, the chance could not be taken that they would be killed or injured in battle or conflict. So it is today. The truly scholarly teacher directs his students in the methods that will cause them to be successful, however because it is a true science, the student may not always understand "why" things work, only that they do. Some students will come to understand more than others based on simple things as intellect and personal conviction. The scholar and warrior insure the co-existence of each other. The warrior would not exist without the directions of the scholar, and without the warrior to train, the scholar would have no purpose."

RESISTENCE IS FUTILE, YOU WILL BE ASSIMILATED

[white belt]

Kenneth Ku,

I teach the bow as a weapon. A head butt!! Bows don't hurt people, people do! :)

RyuShikan,

"Pain is weakness leaving the body"? My students must be constipated! :)

white belt

[KennethKu]

"...I come to you with empty hands; (I am friendly and unarmed)

I have no weapons. (Both hands are place together as they form the shape of a triangle.) ...."

Except that Ed Parker sr. used to carry a gun.

[KennethKu]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan
If that’s all you look for in it then that’s all you will get from it.

You have a point there. I should not be so arrogant as to impose my own view onto others.


No country is without flaw.
However, in Japan people can generally walk down any street in the wee hours of the morning or night without fear of being assaulted in some way. Which is pretty amazing.

The Japanese criminal syndicate Yakuza rule their tuff with ironfist. They are such an integrated part of the society. They run prostitution, gambling, extortion, especially extortion, drugs (and guns). They also own and run legitimate businesses. They don't allow random criminals to run amok in their tuff. Bad for business.

Its a good deal for the ordinary citizen, until they have something the Yakuza want.

This is obviously not the only factor at work, but one that is significant and seldom known to the outside world.


Really?
I was a schoolteacher in the Japanese Education system for many years and disagree.
What are you basing your opinions on?

My parents taught English in Asia.



Who knows but it doesn’t seem to do it any harm either. Judging from crime statistics from the US and say Japan………Japan has less crime…..and less violent crime specifically.

You should look at the crime statistics in other Asian captial cities , except may be Singapore.



It’s not.
However, America has the highest murder rate for any industrialized nation in the world………as well as the most serial killers……..and Indiana has produced the most serial killers of any state.
May be b/c we no longer teach kids those good ol American values.

[Kiz Bell]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan
Kind of an odd comment from someone that claims to study iaijutsu/iaido, jodo.

Not really. Yes, rei does comprise a very important part of iai. I actually quite like learning and practicing all the intricate little pieces of etiquitte involved in these arts, I feel this adds enormously to the art, heck it's integrel to the art. But not all arts have a formal rei.

What I was talking about is Kenneth's comment that bowing or other displays of protocol might get kid's attention and go a little way towards instilling the idea of respect into them. Some people do need this. Be it the involved formal seated rei of iai, or just a quick bow as one enters the dojo, or even a salute as in American Kenpo, some people need to be reminded that even though we are all learning fighting techniques that doesn't mean we shouldn't be civilized about it. Like I said before, sad but true.

I was also agreeing with his comment in regards to the anti-bowing people that "no-one has ever been harmed by bowing". I can't see why learning iai or jo should make me disagree with that.

[Chronuss]

Originally posted by KennethKu
Heck, when I read that description of Kenpo salute, I almost laughed. EPAK stole or borrowed that salute or greeting from the ancient Chinese! The Chinese have been doing that for since who know when.

I believe I said in my description of the EPAK Salute that it was from the Chinese arts; also, Doc gave a more ellaborate description of the full Salutation, the one we more commonly do before forms.

[white belt]

Ed Parker playing that Assassin in the Pink Panther movie was a stroke of genious. Anyone that accomplished, with that amount of self deprecating humor, had to be pretty humble. Packin' heat or not!

Kenneth Ku,

Your parents taught English in Asia? I seeeee........and what was it that they were teaching to these English? I bet it wasn't bowing!

:)
white belt