The value of kata

[newGuy12]

Is kata a waste of time? I say no, and I wish to try to explain why. Many people may wonder why we practice the kata. Maybe they see no other reason except that it has been done that way for a long time, and so we will all do it now, and that is the end of it. There is no reason to discuss it, because that is how it is done. And to question this is to show great disrespect!

Now, some people question this anyway, and that is understandable. I myself wonder about these things. Is is a waste of training time? I say, "That depends".

Oh? What do I mean? Sometimes kata is worthwhile, sometimes it is not so beneficial? Yes. Let me explain, please...

Okay, if the kata is just practiced as a set of motions, with no understanding of what those motions mean, then it seems a bit empty. But that is not the true kata practice. No. The movements all have combative meaning. These meanings can be very profound, and to learn the meanings (and practice them) has good benefit for actual self defense.

Now, you may say, "Yes, but that pales compared to sparring, where you practice against a resistive opponent, one that is not compliant!" I grant you that. However, once the meanings of the motions are known (either through trying to interpret them yourself or availing yourself of some other resource --> say, Abernathy! --> then, the practice changes. You then are reviewing these profound techniques as you practice the kata.

Surely no one will say that you ONLY practice with a partner, only doing live drills. No. We all from time to time practice by ourselves, with no sparring parter. This is where kata comes in.

You see, there is a misunderstanding. There is disagreement that gives me displeasure to see. I wish to make put this to rest, to make it clear that kata is valuable.

And please, when I refer to kata, I refer to what EVERYONE agrees as kata. Not a combination of punches that are made up by you. No. What I mean is the set of motions one would do at a tournament. THAT is what I mean by 'kata' in this discussion.

[14 Kempo]

Is kata a waste of time?

I believe that kata done by those with a closed mind is a waste of time. I will agree that some of the Kempo kata that I have could be seen as a waste of time, however, all the Kung Fu kata that I've seen thus far has many, many applications throughout. We are encouraged to take movements from the forms and work with them, discover what the movements are and how they apply to self defense, it is eye-opening to say the least.

Part of the problem is the teacher, it's not particularly their fault, might be that thier teacher didn't show them, cause they were holding back or they weren't shown by their instructor, so on and so forth. The issue with some higher ranked Kempo forms is that they are made up, mostly certain techniques thrown together, which is fine, but without thought to transitions.

If a good form is taught and practiced correctly, it is definately worth the effort, if for no other reason than to build strength, stamina, skill and movement. Many students are given one application for a specific movement, if at all. In all honesty there are an unlimited number of applications for most movements. Yes, the movements may vary slighty, not be the exact, identical movement, but it is there if you open your mind, investigate and work with it. This is how I am trained now, not how I was trained just 6 months ago ... my mind has been opened and it is utterly amazing what can be found.

My last school talked about "opening the box", the mind, but we were basically then told, not in so many words, to not go outside the circle ... LOL ... where I am now, I am taught to open the box and discover on my own. I may ask a question with regards to a movement and may be shown 5 or 6 possible applications for it, this will then trigger me to come up with 2 or 3 more on my own. That's what I mean about opening the mind and investigating.

This does become easier as a person moves up in rank and is more understanding of the concepts and theories behind the art being practiced.

Hope that is understandable, as the saying goes, "easier said than written" ... LOL

Hey, when I started my response, only the question was raised, no explanation ... LOL ... that's OK, I'll leave my view.

[Andrew Green]

If you like kata, do it. If not, don't. It doesn't need defended anymore then countless other activities people enjoy...

[Kennedy_Shogen_Ryu]

Perhaps one of the unfortunates of this debate is that several martial artists disagree as to what the definition of a kata is. Some say that a kata is a Japanese form such as Heian or Tekki. Some will say that any set of movements strung together ie. boxing combinations, Muay Thai combination etc. could be called a kata.

I'm not here to argue which one is right for fear of getting too off topic which I'm sure I'm becoming notorious for!

I personally that kata has much value. For many martial arts, much of the tradition and history of the art is found in the kata. I believe that the kata in my style are an encyclopedia of movements to be studied and understood but not to be considered the 'be all end all'. I absolutely believe that free sparring is a necessity when it comes to martial art, in my opinion that helps us to understand the martial. In my opinion kata allow us to keep sight of the art aspect while also helping us understand the martial.

All my personal opinion of course!

Cheers!

[Danny T]

If you like kata, do it. If not, don't. It doesn't need defended anymore then countless other activities people enjoy...

Got to agree with this but will add:
Doing Kata or forms for the sake of doing them once you know them(unless you simply enjoy it) can be a waste of training time in my opinion. However, taking the movements apart and studying what is available within the movements and transitions are of 'Great' value. I feel there is a vast difference in doing Kata vs studing kata.

In my limited knowledge of other's katas and their training, only from what I have experienced I feel there is very little study of what is available within the forms. Most only experience the most obvious and never learn to see or understand the implied aspects. Hence, the many who have a distain for forms or katas.


Danny T

[Nomad]

Sparring is a battle against another person. Kata is a battle against yourself (this is even taking out the many applications of kata sequences). Can you control the first without the second? Possibly, using different training methods, but few have the innate beauty of kata, or develop the mental and physical focus of traditional kata.

A kata done well is art. Sparring rarely reaches anywhere near this level.

IMO, people who think kata are "stupid" have never been told or understood what they're actually doing and why.

[Andrew Green]

A kata done well is art. Sparring rarely reaches anywhere near this level.

IMO, people who think kata are "stupid" have never been told or understood what they're actually doing and why.

I might say the same about people that think sparring is shallow in comparison ;)

[terryl965]

KATA POOMSAE OR FORMS are all worthless and we all know that, so please can we give it a rest.

Now for something more realistic Kata are the backbone to the ancient ART and will deliver what you put into them no effort no SD no time no understanding No opened mind well you all get the picture right. For the last time Kata Poomsae or fprms have there place if you want it to be.

[digitalronin]

katas present the martial playbook, but without field practice, you have little hope of winning.

[Andrew Green]

KATA POOMSAE OR FORMS are all worthless and we all know that, so please can we give it a rest.

Now for something more realistic Kata are the backbone to the ancient ART and will deliver what you put into them no effort no SD no time no understanding No opened mind well you all get the picture right. For the last time Kata Poomsae or fprms have there place if you want it to be.

Very few people will claim kata are worthless, at least not unless there is a objective in mind. If the objective is something like boxing or MMA, then kata are not a good training method.

However, that is not to say they are worthless, just not suited to that task. A hammer is not a good tool because it sucks when you want to weld something, just sucks for that task.

Why some people seem to want to claim kata are the best training method for everything anyone could possibly want is beyond me, it isn't. It is a fairly specific one, used for fairly specific purposes.

[Tez3]

Andrew, (sorry about this people) is there a picture or something at the end of your posts? All I get is a box with a little red x in it which usually means there's a photo there. Just wondered if I was missing something.

[Andrew Green]

My sig image :D

[terryl965]

Very few people will claim kata are worthless, at least not unless there is a objective in mind. If the objective is something like boxing or MMA, then kata are not a good training method.

However, that is not to say they are worthless, just not suited to that task. A hammer is not a good tool because it sucks when you want to weld something, just sucks for that task.

Why some people seem to want to claim kata are the best training method for everything anyone could possibly want is beyond me, it isn't. It is a fairly specific one, used for fairly specific purposes.


Andrew here is my point Kata's are what each person makes of them for me it helps with my training. I find value out of it, some other people do not and that is fine but when people tell me they are worthless all the time and try to compare them to a boxer than it kinda of upsets me. I know professional boxer that did very little to be able to defend themselfs in a street stituation. I'm just getting tired of all these stuff thats all.

[zDom]

Your mileage may vary, but I'm pretty sure that practicing poomsea was one of the things (among many others) that made me a better fighter.

(shrug) :)

[Big Don]

I know it isn't a waste of time, but, I still hate it.
I look at it as a requirement, something I have to learn and become proficient at so I will pass when I test and so I will be able to teach it later.

[still learning]

Hello, I know? NOT me again? ....it's your choice to believe what you want to believe.

To learn to fight? ...is to fight to learn....the more real....the more you learn.

Joe Lewis...went to Okinawa to learn karate and earn a black belt...he did it in 7 months...not because of Kata's....but because he was able to defeat all the black belts in contact fighting. He learn thru fighting.

Kata's refer to a set of movements made by early karate masters as there way to train one self. a concise and exact sets with names.

They had drills and other training methods besides kata's. There is a difference's when we do drills and when we do Kata training.

Aloha.....

[newGuy12]

'still_learning'! I see you are on the board and are replying to this thread!

I respect you very much and thank you for all of the help that you have given me as I get back into practice. Please watch this video, which shows a man from the UK demonstrating bunkai for a shotokan form:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYTaDUAOGZY

Also, here we see how vigorous the practice can be with a partner, practicing bunkai:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKUaWz9IjBg

And, one more, this one is quite long. You will see... is the rising x block a block? Or, is it an escape from a double wrist grab?

Also, are multiple high blocks while stepping forward successive blocks OR... can it be a forearm strike to the neck???

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKUaWz9IjBg

You see how much more aggressive these motions are with these interpretations! One would not typically use these in sparring (forearm strike to the neck) as it is too dangerous for your partner!

Much Respect,


Robert Witten

[newGuy12]

Kata's refer to a set of movements made by early karate masters as there way to train one self. a concise and exact sets with names.

They had drills and other training methods besides kata's. There is a difference's when we do drills and when we do Kata training.

Aloha.....

YES!

Yes, katas are made by Master Instructors, and they are motions that are performed in the tournaments. These are what I mean when I use the word kata. Yes!

But --> you see, there is more to them than meets the eye. There is more. A high block is NOT just a high block. No. It is ALSO a forearm strike to the neck. The bunkai that the Man from the UK exposes shows this to us.

This is why I am excited to investigate this kata at more depth.

[newGuy12]

Aloha to 'still_learning'...

I have no desire to start an argument. You are more accomplished than I am in Martial Arts. I respect you greatly. I simply wish to make clear that I believe that these kata (remember, I say "kata" means what YOU say it means, that is what I am referring to) --> they have DEEP meaning with interesting motions.

Yes, we must freespar, and perhaps do woofing and other training, but, you see, it is different today. It is not as it was some 25 years ago. Today, the deeper meanings of these kata are being brought out into the open for all to see.

Aloha!

[still learning]

Hello, My daughter and I was talking about there High school wrestling training. She mention they start with condition drills than next week they will go into the ground floor workouts.

She mentions she learns quicker when they go thru the actual movements or by doing them for real. Full body contact using muscles and mind together. (she has NO experience in any Kata training, nor is there for wrestling in High school) (15 years old).

Kata does not give the real feelings and body contact that you get from when you actual make contact. This actual contact actions is remember in the brain and memory in a very solid way.

just like a punches in the air...it has it own feeling to it....but when punching a bag...a different feeling to it....when actual punching a real body or face...again a different feeling to it (body has hard and soft places and uneven too...plus it can be moving around too.

When training...it seems the more real...the better the memory! (real meaning contact).

One can practice going thru motions over and over in a precise manner like a kata.......When it is for real? the lessons is different!

Baseball...one can swing a bat hundreds of times....when for real againist a ball being thrown...it is different feeling.....facing a pitcher and watching for the ball to be thrown and the timimg to swing...high pitch, low pitch...all in spit seconds.....real practice is different is different than practicing in the air by yourself............

Aloha

[newGuy12]

Yes, I understand. Thank you Sir.

I hope that you daughter will give good submission holds and win all of her matches! You can show her extra techniques!

Aloha!

[Kacey]

If kata/tul/forms/hyung/patterns/whatever you call them doesn't work for you, don't do them. For me, tul are a piece of training, along with line drills, step sparring, free sparring, hol-sin-sul (specific self-defense application), etc. - specifically, tul are a way for me to practice sequential movements without a partner, something that allows me to explore movements determined to be useful and of interest by the founder of a style - in this case, Gen. Choi Hong Hi, founder of Ch'ang H'on TKD.

If you don't like them - don't do them. But that doesn't mean that they are useless/meaningless/etc. for everyone else as well as yourself.

[CuongNhuka]

Breathing is just like forms. It's comepletely and totaly useless if you don't understand why it is your doing it.

[Sukerkin]

Probably the best precis of the place and importance of kata I've ever read, Cuong - excellent :applause:.

I would add another instance of my own 'tuppence' to this but having gone quite a few times round the block with this topic (the last being what seems like only a few minutes ago) I'm sure that if anyone's interested in what I have to say they can find it via the 'Search function'.

[Brian S]

I have given up on trying to justify kata training to no kata types.

It perplexes me why they are so concerned that others are doing kata. They are not wasting their time so why do they feel compelled to tell me I'm wasting mine?

Well, something is missing in their training and they can't get their minds around it. They simply must know why we do kata and defend it so.

Kata can't be explained on paper. You have to practice it right, train it right, and test it right. For all this you have to have a qualified instructor in your presence. Apparently, they do not.

[meth18au]

I have given up on trying to justify kata training to no kata types.

It perplexes me why they are so concerned that others are doing kata. They are not wasting their time so why do they feel compelled to tell me I'm wasting mine?

Well, something is missing in their training and they can't get their minds around it. They simply must know why we do kata and defend it so.
.




Dear Sir


Not all "no kata types" feel that way, nor do most people even feel the need to discriminate between "kata" arts and "non kata" arts. I also don't feel anything is missing in my training because of a lack of kata.


Aren't we all just martial artists? When language is used that separates martial artists into "kata artists" and "non-kata artists", this is what promotes the whole idea of 'sides'. These threads then become futile because it becomes a verbal slanging match between certain people on both "sides"- and the intelligent comments get overlooked because of this situation. I see this as preventing any useful debate- an in-group and an out-group- on both "sides" of the arguement.


I hope no offence is taken. But I'm a martial artist.....not a "non kata" artist.....

;)

[Nomad]

I might say the same about people that think sparring is shallow in comparison ;)

;) Quite probably. I've never professed to be expert at either, but simply view kata and sparring as complementary tools with slightly different but interconnected goals in mind.

[Flying Crane]

Why some people seem to want to claim kata are the best training method for everything anyone could possibly want is beyond me, it isn't. It is a fairly specific one, used for fairly specific purposes.

Ah, I meant to stay out of this, yet another debate over the worth, or lack thereof, of kata. But Andrew's comment brought something to mind and I decided to comment.

I don't think anyone who is a proponent of kata would suggest that it is the only training method needed. Kata is simply one tool, among many, that are useful in training in the traditional arts. That's the thing. Nobody says, if you do kata you need do nothing else. It's still a good idea to work on a heavy bag, work realistic applications on partners, etc. Kata just helps build a foundation in traditional arts, upon which the other training methods can better stand.

[exile]

Actually, I think I'd go even further than Michael and deny that kata are a training method at all. A training method starts from some analysis of strategy and tactics for the activity in question and gives you concrete activities that let you develop the skills necessary to implement those strategic and tactical goals. Take Alpine slalom ski racing. The keys to slalom racing are (i) minimize the radius of your turns, and (ii) take the line that lets you initiate the turn as high above the next gate as possible. To implement (i), you need to develop the art of carving your turns, while terminating the carving in time to flatten the ski very briefly to get the carve for the next turn, in the opposite direction, under way. To implement (ii), you need to be able to step your turns, so that when you shift your weight—early!—to the new outside ski, you also move that ski uphill, giving yourself the maximum turning space to get your line really close to the upcoming gate. But to train these skills is a fundamentally different kind of thing from the skills themselves. When I was racing and instructing, we used all kinds of tricks and routines to get our students to carve their turns: very wide stance parallel turns, one-leg turns, graduated length skis, graduated steepness slopes, etc. We had training methods for skiing, for teaching skiing, for racing, but the goal of these methods were (i) and (ii), because they represented the constraints on the activity that had to be satisfied to the maximum extent possible if you were going to win the race (or be an effective non-racing skier; we made no distinction between racing and recreational technique).

Kata are the same thing. They aren't a training method; they're the physical embodiment of certain combat principles and tactics that you then have to train effectively in. In the UK, the British Combat Association takes heavily realistic scenario-based training to be the right way to train the SD principles embodied in the kata. What kata are is not a training method, but a fighting method; the way you learn that fighting method can involve visualization, bag work, two-partner training, multipartner noncompliant training with heavy padding, or with only light padding, for those who like to live dangerously... but what's being trained is a different beast than the method by which it's being trained. It's like: there's all kinds of algorithms to carry out a Fourier transform, and some are better than others for any given piece of computational hardware, but regardless of which algorithm you use, you're still carrying out the same mathematical operation. The algorithm which realizes the operation is like the training method, but the operation itself is what the kata correspond to.

[still learning]

Hello, Kata ( Japanese name) for sets of movements of Karate techniques practice in a percise way.

Kata's for most martial artist is : Pinan or Heian sets....NOTHING else

When we practice or training.....(this is NOT call kata!) ...just practice or training.

ONE can train and practice "KATA". Many people do not under stand this what the term Kata means?

You can make ski lessons into a Kata? ..ski kata number one, (same set of movements, ski kata two ....same set of movements-different sets, and so on!

Kata? ....when one says Kata? ....Pinan one....most of us know what to do.

When we practice kicking and punching...this is practicing...."Jap, punch, kick..drills..and change the drills to round house, jab, punch...and etc..

You can train and practice KATA! Is "kata" a noun? or a verb?

Aloha ( NO english)

[Flying Crane]

Kata's for most martial artist is : Pinan or Heian sets....NOTHING else



...ooohh, methinks you are gonna get a lot of disagreement here...

[Kacey]

Kata's for most martial artist is : Pinan or Heian sets....NOTHING else

Kata, tul, palgwe, patterns - whatever you choose to call them - are used in different ways by different arts, and even within arts, are used different ways by different instructors, and are understood differently by every person who
performs them.

It may be true, in your experience, that for most martial artists kata are, indeed, Pinan or Heian sets - for myself, I've never done one - and I know quite a few tuls.

I have also, as both a student and an instructor, modified tuls and exercises to suit my own needs at the moment, as well as created a fair number of training routines that were designed to teach a particular skill or skill set. If I, as an instructor, require my students to perform a particular set of movements repeatedly, in the same fashion each time, how is that different from a tul? How is modifying a tul to meet the needs of the student (as either a student or an instructor) different from modifying a set of movements used in sequence for a particular purpose?

We have - not just you and I, but many people on this thread - a definition of "pattern" that varies, as I said, from style to style, organization to organization, school to school, instructor to instructor, practitioner to practitioner. It is quite apparent from your comments that you have little, if any, use for kata - and that's your choice. It is not, however, my choice, nor is it the choice of many of the posters on this board. That does not make you wrong, or me wrong - it makes both of us right, for the circumstances in which patterns are used (or not used) by each of us - and that's okay with me.

[newGuy12]

/* please forgive me for being off topic here */
I just HAVE to thank you people, each of you, for being who you are. You people will live and die without ever realizing just how special you are.

Even when there is disagreements, even though I am so new to this board, what an interesting group of people we have assembled here in our little virtual community, and I mean that most sincerely.

Its not often that it is so clear to me just how interesting human beings can be. A rat or a dog, they would not have any idea what we write about here, let alone be so passionate about it.

So many times I have read these forums, and it has filled my brain up with awe and wonder, even when I do not agree with what is written. It seems as though there must be something that can be said, some awesome point made, that could make it all so clear to everyone just how we are NOT really in disagreement, but there is only a misunderstanding.

However, it just simply escapes me. Its just not there.
/* thank you all for allowing this off topic post*/

[jks9199]

I've never, in more than 20 years, done a Pinan or Heian. But I've done about 10 different forms, and worked with several beyond that.

I'm not sure what Still Learning is saying. I'm confused; has he suddenly come round to believe in forms? Or is he mocking them by calling every exercise consisting of repeated movement sequences a form or kata?

[tellner]

I find it difficult to agree with anything Still Learning says. But he has a point. When he talks disparagingly about forms and katas almost everyone says "You do jab, cross, hook, uppercut. Isn't that a form? Isn't that the same as a kata?" If you want to be that broad, then "One foot in front of the other" is The Walking Kata. But it's still disingenuous. Because then they say "Any patterned movement is a kata. That patterned movement is good. So whatever patterned movement we do is good." The more honest ones will admit that there's a real difference between a short combination and a whole hyung. But most of them won't.

So yes, he has a point. What he does is qualitatively different. It's not accurate or honest to conflate that and, say the 108 kuen of Wah Lum Praying Mantis.

[still learning]

Hello, Since I am unable to explain what a KATA is? and many of you do not see this point of view? ....that is OK.

Each of us have their own beliefs....each has a right to choose your paths......I am NO longer a sheep....I question many things that is being taught in the martial art world.

Why? does this work? ...why do we do this? Why? Why? and questions....

IS THERE A BETTER WAY to learn what we are learning in the martial art world? It there a better to remember the many techniques and moves?

Is there a faster way to build speed? ..reactions? ...Is there a more effective form of teaching?

Still learning is seeking A NEW PATH OF LEARNING....that is why there is so many arts...each seeking the truths of self-defence...yet all of them have weakness in many parts? ...one reason why so many new arts are being form....each seeking the truths or the best way!

Can we do better than what is taught today? Off course! There are better ways to improve everything .....

Learning the martial arts...can be endless

S/L may be seen as thorn to some.....maybe hit in the head too many times.......I know what I am seeking....still learning is NOT a sheep anymore...

Musahi Miyamoto was always seeking to improve his swordman ship....than a change in point of his life...and wrote "The five rings"...

Aloha, So many things in life was once true....until one day new things are learn and found to truer...that can change too!

[newGuy12]

Well, I for one, am so ready for the robotic sparring partners! Can you imagine? You can lay into one of those full power, and nobody cares. Its a robot! What a great idea!

[Brian S]

Dear Sir


Not all "no kata types" feel that way, nor do most people even feel the need to discriminate between "kata" arts and "non kata" arts. I also don't feel anything is missing in my training because of a lack of kata.


Aren't we all just martial artists? When language is used that separates martial artists into "kata artists" and "non-kata artists", this is what promotes the whole idea of 'sides'. These threads then become futile because it becomes a verbal slanging match between certain people on both "sides"- and the intelligent comments get overlooked because of this situation. I see this as preventing any useful debate- an in-group and an out-group- on both "sides" of the arguement.


I hope no offence is taken. But I'm a martial artist.....not a "non kata" artist.....

;)

Sorry if I was speaking so generally. I realize there are many many different ways to train and everyone has their own opinion.

No offence was taken.

[ChingChuan]

I think that kata are supposed to be a 'way of learning'. I don't know much about katas/ forms in other systems apart from Pencak Silat (jurus/langkah) but I think that each element of such a kata teaches you another principle - even if it's a long one.- it's a way to help you see that 'something can also be done in this or that way'.

An example (in Pencak Silat) would be the use of a an aksraha (kind of low position) in different situations - in jurus 1 you use it to avoid a front kick, in jurus 24 you use a slightly different version to avoid a side kick that you wrongly assumed to be a front kick. Well, and of course there are more movements than only that aksraha in those jurus, so this would apply to each jurus - each movement is used in a slightly different way or in a different sequence.
So, apparently, they found that teaching MA this way in the past worked best, so now almost all systems/arts have katas because that worked. Maybe there are better methods, but does that devalue the kata in itself?

It's just like you've got to memorize a whole list of Latin words or something. One person just reads the list over and over, the other copies it several times, another person uses a computer program to test himself - there are many methods to achieve this goal, but none is better than the other, because all of these methods help people achieve their goal - knowing that words. A kata helps (some) people to achieve their goal - mastering the principles & techniques of that particular art.

So, what is the discussion really about? To me, it seems as though people are frustrated with the quality of the teachers - of course, a kata/jurus/etc will be worthless if the teacher can't use it the right way (to explain something rather than as a goal in itself), but that isn't the fault of the kata, is it?

[exile]

The more honest ones will admit that there's a real difference between a short combination and a whole hyung. But most of them won't.

So yes, he has a point. What he does is qualitatively different. It's not accurate or honest to conflate that and, say the 108 kuen of Wah Lum Praying Mantis.

This is a point that needs to be examined a bit, because I think that one of the main sources of misunderstandings about the martial content of kata is that they're viewed as novels, rather than collections of short stories, so to speak. Every kata and hyung that I know can be `parsed' into a number of three-to-five move combat scenarios, any one of which would constitute a `short' combination in the sense you're talking about. Sometimes you've got what looks like the same thing going towards the opposide side, i.e., looking simply like a 180º rotation of all moves, but here too, along the lines ChingChuan says below, the repetition of the sequence is in effect an invitation to give a different combat interpretation to the same sequence of moves: what was a punch with a hikite retraction pulling the attacker in on the first interpretation can just as easly be seen as a quick, violent head twist, where the punch and retraction correspond to grips (hence the closed fists) of the attacker's head with both hand and the punch/retraction motion itself to a (potentially very) damaging torque on his neck vertebræ. Often there are multiple interpretations for the same sequence of moves: you may have moves M1-M2-M3-M4 that correspond nicely to a single combat sequence, but you may also find that M1–M3 itself is complete, and that M4 can be taken to be the beginning of a sequence that goes on to M5 and M6. Sometimes a pivot can be in effect a bit of punctuation before the next sentence, and sometimes it can be a word in the `sentence' made up of the words—the series of movement—corresponding to a complete fighting scenario. The point is that each kata typically contains a number of such subsequences, and they're at least semi-independent of each other.

This is crucial for the KMAs in particular because, if you look at certain hyung sets, such as the Palgwes, you can find in virtually every one of them a mixture of movements from different kata (very often the Pinans, Naihanchi and Bassai—the great classics). But the Palgwes work very well as records of combat technique because the mixture of movements turns out to be a stringing together of subsequences from the various sources, each subsequence having `stand-alone' integrity as a natural subpart of the kata it came from. It's like taking three collections of short stories and excerpting two short stories from each one, and then shuffling these together to produce a new collection. Yes, it looks different from any of the others, but each of its component stories make available the same narrative, with the same meaning, as that story did in the collection it originally appeared in. That's why hyungs, assembled from mixmastered elements of Shotokan kata as they often are, still have complete combat utility: the basic combat-effective subsequences have not been altered, just recombined with other such subsequences in a different package.

I was very struck, at a Combat Hapkido seminar I attended last spring, at how many of the CH drills we were shown by Gm. Pelligrini corresponded to components of TKD hyungs I've studied. CH has no hyungs. What they have are two-to-four move drills, for virtually every SD situation imaginable, and they have a ton of them. And I kept having this sense of déja vu: this stuff I'm doing now looks awfully familiar... I've done this before, but where? I realized at one point that these were in many cases the same sequences, with small variations, as what I'd seen thought about in various hyungs and katas. So in CH, you don't do katas but you do do drills, any four or five of which could be combined into something that would look an awful lot like a TKD hyung. Any differences would, I think, arise from the fact that CH doesn't use linear striking techs to the same degree as TKD does, so there are places where CH goes for a throw or a `terminal' hyperextension (= joint break, eh?) where TKD would go for a hard strike to a vulnerable vital point; but that's completely consistent with the main point—that kata and hyungs, if you parse them correctly, really represent combat scenario drilled hooked togather by movements that might just be transition stages, but might also have combat content themselves.



I think that kata are supposed to be a 'way of learning'. I don't know much about katas/ forms in other systems apart from Pencak Silat (jurus/langkah) but I think that each element of such a kata teaches you another principle - even if it's a long one.- it's a way to help you see that 'something can also be done in this or that way'.

An example (in Pencak Silat) would be the use of a an aksraha (kind of low position) in different situations - in jurus 1 you use it to avoid a front kick, in jurus 24 you use a slightly different version to avoid a side kick that you wrongly assumed to be a front kick. Well, and of course there are more movements than only that aksraha in those jurus, so this would apply to each jurus - each movement is used in a slightly different way or in a different sequence.
So, apparently, they found that teaching MA this way in the past worked best, so now almost all systems/arts have katas because that worked. Maybe there are better methods, but does that devalue the kata in itself?

...A kata helps (some) people to achieve their goal - mastering the principles & techniques of that particular art.

I'd go even further than this myself, CC, and say that for the karate based arts, the katas embody the `principles & techniques of [each] particular art'. Something always to be borne in mind is that in the early days of karate, the katas themselves were regarded not as separate exercise within the overarching art, but as the art itself. And they were spoken of in exactly this way; both Iain Abernethy in Bunkai Jutsu and Bill Burgar in Five Years, One Kata make the point that to the Okinawan pioneers, a kata was a separate `style' of MA in itself. Abernethy cites Choki Motobu as saying, in 1926, that `the Naihanchi, Passai, Chinto and Rohai styles are not left in China today and only remain in Okinawa as active martial arts', noting the enormous significance behind Motobu's use of the descriptions styles and marital arts for what we would almost certainly describe as just kata. The contemporary view was that a kata comprised enough separate SD techniques to be a separate fighting system unto itself, and there seems to be some documentary evidence that most of the early masters, though they may have been familiar with a number of kata, only trained deeply in two or three at most. More would have been superfluous.


So, what is the discussion really about? To me, it seems as though people are frustrated with the quality of the teachers - of course, a kata/jurus/etc will be worthless if the teacher can't use it the right way (to explain something rather than as a goal in itself), but that isn't the fault of the kata, is it?

Dead right, CC. The problem is that kata are not properly understood by instructors in many cases, because they learned from instructors who themselves had not been trained in the crucial combination of effective bunkai and realistic combat practice (very different from standard kumite). According to Gennosuke Higaki, most of Funikoshi's Japanese students only got a very bare-bones treatment of kata applications; the deeper understanding was reserved by the Okinawans for their Okinawan students, although in rare cases, such as Higaki's own master Shozan Kubota, one of his private student, Funakoshi would show them the Okinawan bunkai, making it clear that they shouldn't say anything about it to their fellow Japanese students. If the transmission of bunkai, and even more important, the methods of carrying out bunkai, the kaisai no genri, weren't transmitted to most of the early generation of students, the results of that generation's teaching would be seriously diluted with respect to the originals, and you can see how much that effect would accumulate with each succeeding generation of master/student instruction.

The good thing is that the craft of bunkai and its theoretical basis are being revived by karateka who have plenty of real-time combat experience (I'm thinking of the BCA types). The bad thing is that it's probably going to take a long, long time before these techniques, and more important, combat principles, regain the central place they once had in the dojo curriculum...

[MJS]

I find it difficult to agree with anything Still Learning says. But he has a point. When he talks disparagingly about forms and katas almost everyone says "You do jab, cross, hook, uppercut. Isn't that a form? Isn't that the same as a kata?" If you want to be that broad, then "One foot in front of the other" is The Walking Kata. But it's still disingenuous. Because then they say "Any patterned movement is a kata. That patterned movement is good. So whatever patterned movement we do is good." The more honest ones will admit that there's a real difference between a short combination and a whole hyung. But most of them won't.

So yes, he has a point. What he does is qualitatively different. It's not accurate or honest to conflate that and, say the 108 kuen of Wah Lum Praying Mantis.

I wouldn't say walking is on the same lines as when I spoke of boxing combos. The issue here, is that SL is completely disregarding the use of kata..plain and simple! In your analogy of walking...well, there is only one way of walking, compared to multiple ways of throwing boxing combos. Sure, when doing a kata, you do it move by move, from start to finish, but applications can come from anywhere in that kata. When you walk, you dont take a few steps facing forward, then turn sideways, crossing one foot over the next, then turn around and walk backwards, etc.

I think Exile summed it up pretty good with his analogy. Additionally, I have said the same thing...that while in a confrontation, one isn't going to take up a pose and perform move by move, a kata to defend themselves, but instead, just like SD techniques, you're going to extract what you need at the time.

The main issue, as its been said countless times, is not that kata are bad, but instead, the person or people teaching them, don't have a clue what they're doing. How can someone teach someone else if they themselves, don't have a full grasp? Its like giving someone a car, minus the tires.

[newGuy12]

I think that one of the main sources of misunderstandings about the martial content of kata is that they're viewed as novels, rather than collections of short stories, so to speak. Every kata and hyung that I know can be `parsed' into a number of three-to-five move combat scenarios,

This is exactly how American Kenpo forms were presented to me during my short stint with that Art. Long Form 4, for example, has Unfurling Crane, Darting Leaves, and others. This means that the student is taught these motions as self defense techniques in isolation. They are then presented together, flowing into each other in Long Form 4.

It was told to me that American Kenpo has many "hidden" things in it (probably because it just such a robust system?), but in this regard, we see that American Kenpo deliberately exposes many parts of the forms. That is, the meanings of these motions are KNOWN to the student as a matter of course.

[terryl965]

All I can say is the Seventy five sets of Kata, form or poomsae I know and do, is all bogus and my training is nothing more than smoke and mirrors.

And if you believe that then send me your name and address along with 1 million dollars and I will also sell you the biggest and most blue lake they have in the desert.

Thank you all for coming.

[still learning]

Hello, Kata ....What is it's true value? ......is it 10%...50% ...or 100% of our martial arts training? How much does "Kata" give in return for real fighting on the streets?

Value of Kata? .....Where do you put "kata" the value in your training? ..at the top? or middle? ....high or med? or low..?

How much "Kata" will one need to be a good martial artist on the real streets of fighting back? for self defense?

What is the value to you?

For myself? ....less than 6.00897%....guessing here!

( Value of Kata? ) ......is there a true answer base on real documented facts?

(100% -S-L does not really know this?)..he knows what he feels about it?

$$$$$ - value of Kata? .....Aloha ($3,005.00)-guessing..joking here!

[newGuy12]

Okay, that does it... I'm pulling out the "beat a dead horse" picture!

:deadhorse

Of course, I show another one, too, to show good respect!

:shinzaki:

[Kacey]

Hello, Kata ....What is it's true value? ......is it 10%...50% ...or 100% of our martial arts training? How much does "Kata" give in return for real fighting on the streets?

What is the value of training at all?

Kata is not important to you - you've made that clear. Kata is, however, important to others, as they (we) have made clear.

As with many other things - if you don't find it valuable for yourself, don't do it - but please don't tell me what is and is not valuable for me. We are all different people, with different experiences, opinions, and needs. What works for you - or doesn't work for you - is different than what does or doesn't work for others. Different is just that - different - but in the context of this discussion, different is neither right nor wrong: it simply is.

[exile]

This is exactly how American Kenpo forms were presented to me during my short stint with that Art. Long Form 4, for example, has Unfurling Crane, Darting Leaves, and others. This means that the student is taught these motions as self defense techniques in isolation. They are then presented together, flowing into each other in Long Form 4.

It was told to me that American Kenpo has many "hidden" things in it (probably because it just such a robust system?), but in this regard, we see that American Kenpo deliberately exposes many parts of the forms. That is, the meanings of these motions are KNOWN to the student as a matter of course.

Bill Burgar, in his magnificent study of the Shotokan kata Gojushiho, to which he devotes five years studying exclusively, consistently describes kata as a mnemonic system, whereby a relatively large number of practical combat `scripts' can be ingrained into muscle memory at once. One of the things I found about Combat Hapkido, whose short drill sequences are not linked together into kata, is that it's... well, it's bloody hard to remember all (or even a good chunk) of the drills! As time goes on, I see more and more the wisdom of taking discrete fighting combinations and threading them together into a whole that can be learned relatively quickly.


All I can say is the Seventy five sets of Kata, form or poomsae I know and do, is all bogus and my training is nothing more than smoke and mirrors.

And if you believe that then send me your name and address along with 1 million dollars and I will also sell you the biggest and most blue lake they have in the desert.

Thank you all for coming.

:lol:

Don't worry, Terry... or maybe, do worry: you're not going to get many takers. Meanwhile, console yourself with the thought that Geoff Thompson, probably the most experienced professional streetfighter—no other way to describe him—currently living, a sixth dan Shotokan karateka, instructor and dojo owner who was involved in more than 300 violent encounters in his ten years as a club bouncer/doorman/security manager in club in Coventry, one of the most notoriously violent cities in the English Midlands, by all accounts—had this to say about kata in his great book on adopting TMAs to street combat, The Pavement Arena:


kata are a treasure trove of hidden techniques that can be adapted directly to a street situation...

...if you want to see them as unrealistic and impractical you will. If however you are perceptive enough to see, you will find that they offer enormous benefits to the street-oriented.... a closer look at kata will divulge not only the manoeuvres we have all come to know and love, but also grappling movements, throws, hook and uppercut punches, eye gouges, grabs, knee attacks, ankle stomps, joint strikes, head-butting and even ground-fighting techniques... when I had my own karate club all these techniques and more were covered. Why? Because they encompass every eventuality in all scenarios, a necessity if one is to be at all prepared for an attack.



(pp.62–63) My feeling is, if someone is not the perceptive MAist Thompson is hoping to reach, well, too bad for them, eh? Really, what happens to them isn't our concern—there are none so blind, etc. etc. I've come to the conclusion, after thinking about it for a bit, that if people won't even look at the evidence contained in the testimony of the elite street combatants of our era—people like Thompson, or Peter Consterdine, the eighth dan Shotokan ace who was an English International in Karate and spent eight years and several hundred barroom fights as—guess what?—a doorman/bouncer/security manger in a club in Manchester, and many others of that stripe—then there's no point in wasting precious lifetime trying to convince 'em, or pointing to evidence they won't pay attention to, or anything like that. I mean, that's their lookout, right? You've been in this game a long, long time and know just how much information there is locked up in those hyungs... someone else doesn't see it and won't try to learn what they don't know, it's not your problem, eh?

[terryl965]

Hello, Kata ....What is it's true value? ......is it 10%...50% ...or 100% of our martial arts training? How much does "Kata" give in return for real fighting on the streets?

Value of Kata? .....Where do you put "kata" the value in your training? ..at the top? or middle? ....high or med? or low..?

How much "Kata" will one need to be a good martial artist on the real streets of fighting back? for self defense?

What is the value to you?

For myself? ....less than 6.00897%....guessing here!

( Value of Kata? ) ......is there a true answer base on real documented facts?

(100% -S-L does not really know this?)..he knows what he feels about it?

$$$$$ - value of Kata? .....Aloha ($3,005.00)-guessing..joking here!


For the last time S_L Kata Forms or Poomsae are you make of it to me the value is plenty, for I understand the SD principle that are involved for someone like you 000.00% you see no value at all. Too bad your eye cannot see past the smoke and mirrors you have up around your place.

[exile]

For the last time S_L Kata Forms or Poomsae are you make of it to me the value is plenty, for I understand the SD principle that are involved for someone like you 000.00% you see no value at all. Too bad your eye cannot see past the smoke and mirrors you have up around your place.

Terry, see my previous post. I understand your frustration, mate, but cheer up. If someone won't even look at the evidence, that's one less person you have to worry about convincing, eh?


As with many other things - if you don't find it valuable for yourself, don't do it - but please don't tell me what is and is not valuable for me. We are all different people, with different experiences, opinions, and needs. What works for you - or doesn't work for you - is different than what does or doesn't work for others. Different is just that - different - but in the context of this discussion, different is neither right nor wrong: it simply is.

Put as succinctly and as rationally as possible!

It's a simple thought, really: `If you don't like it, don't do it, but stop constantly, endlessly nagging at those of us who see the value of it...'— how could anyone with even a little bit of basic sense argue with that??

I hereby offer a simple solution to the problem of kata/hyungs/hsings/etc: those who don't see any value in it—don't do it. Those who do—continue to do it, and communicate, to the others of us who also see that value, your thoughts about the hows, whys and wherefores of analyzing and training kata/hyungs/hsings/etc. Then everyone will be happy, eh?! :)

[MJS]

Hello, Kata ....What is it's true value? ......is it 10%...50% ...or 100% of our martial arts training? How much does "Kata" give in return for real fighting on the streets?

Value of Kata? .....Where do you put "kata" the value in your training? ..at the top? or middle? ....high or med? or low..?

How much "Kata" will one need to be a good martial artist on the real streets of fighting back? for self defense?

What is the value to you?

For myself? ....less than 6.00897%....guessing here!

( Value of Kata? ) ......is there a true answer base on real documented facts?

(100% -S-L does not really know this?)..he knows what he feels about it?

$$$$$ - value of Kata? .....Aloha ($3,005.00)-guessing..joking here!

Kata, IMO, is just one small piece of the package, along with everything else. Some obviously will place it higher or lower depending on their training. I have kata at every belt level, so I suppose I can't neglect it too much. :)

[tshadowchaser]

If kata dose nothing else it helps the muscles remember certain things.
If the person doing the kata is at home practicing then at least they got off their rear end and may be getting some exercise

[Tez3]

If kata dose nothing else it helps the muscles remember certain things.
If the person doing the kata is at home practicing then at least they got off their rear end and may be getting some exercise



Another side effect of kata I've found is it's almost like meditation, when you are doing a kata, concentrating on the moves ( and Bunkai) the world seems further off and your mind clears. The physical effort involved too is more than a lot of people think. For children I've found it trains them to use both sides of their bodies, when kata is done as a class they learn to be aware of where everyone else is ( useful for fighting) and learn to concentrate ( useful for everything). When done solo in front of the class the children learn confidence and you can see them shine with pride and achievement when they've just performed like this. I always praise the children for good effort and for getting up to do it, I never correct them at the time when we do this. Nor do I force them to get up but they are all willing to give it a try. Is this MA training? I think so.

[searcher]

Kihon(basics)-16.67%
Kata, hyungs-16.67%
Physical conditioning-16.67%
Self-defense and step sparring-16.67%
Sparring-16.67%
Breaking-16.67%

For me and mine it is one of the parts held equally with the others.

[still learning]

Hello, The "CONTROVERSY" .....of the value or use of KATA's will go on forever.

Even if science proves.......the amount of value.....there will be those who will contiunue their beliefs.

Like eating three meals a day....science has proven that 5-6 smaller meals are better than the 3 ....but most of us will NEVER change? ..is it habits? ..or traditions? ....or we just follow what is given to us?

Gobal warming? ....science on both sides...believe in there research....yet...NO one knows for sure?

Most of us will fight the way we train! ....you hear and see this alot? ...is it true?

Most of us will NEVER get into a real fight.....this is good! ....because martial arts...is about awareness and avoiding dangerous situtions or stop them from escalations (VERBAL JUDO).

Prepareness for battle.....give you more choices to choose fight? or Flee?
or Stand the ground for being right! ...VERBAL JUDO....choosing the right words! for a win-win!

....sometimes we have NO choice by to fight back......never give-up....

some will fight to "WIN" ...some will fight "NOT to LOSE" ..........Aloha

PS: losing weight: some "win"..others "not to lose"....?

[exile]

Hello, The "CONTROVERSY" .....of the value or use of KATA's will go on forever.

Even if science proves.......the amount of value.....there will be those who will contiunue their beliefs.

Like eating three meals a day....science has proven that 5-6 smaller meals are better than the 3 ....but most of us will NEVER change? ..is it habits? ..or traditions? ....or we just follow what is given to us?

Gobal warming? ....science on both sides...believe in there research....yet...NO one knows for sure?

Most of us will fight the way we train! ....you hear and see this alot? ...is it true?

Most of us will NEVER get into a real fight.....this is good! ....because martial arts...is about awareness and avoiding dangerous situtions or stop them from escalations (VERBAL JUDO).

Prepareness for battle.....give you more choices to choose fight? or Flee?
or Stand the ground for being right! ...VERBAL JUDO....choosing the right words! for a win-win!

....sometimes we have NO choice by to fight back......never give-up....

some will fight to "WIN" ...some will fight "NOT to LOSE" ..........Aloha

PS: losing weight: some "win"..others "not to lose"....?

still_learning, in a previous post I made the following suggestion:



I hereby offer a simple solution to the problem of kata/hyungs/hsings/etc: those who don't see any value in it—don't do it. Those who do—continue to do it, and communicate, to the others of us who also see that value, your thoughts about the hows, whys and wherefores of analyzing and training kata/hyungs/hsings/etc. Then everyone will be happy, eh?! :)

I would like to urge you to consider adopting this as your own policy when questions of kata come up. The advantages are many, and will save everyone a good deal of needless frustration. You, for your part, will go on not doing kata, and will be saved the trouble of giving us reasons not to do kata that make no sense to us whatever. We will continue doing kata, and will not try further to persuade you to examine the evidence that kata contribute centrally to a total SD strategy. We've read what you have to say, considered it and rejected it. You've read what we have to say, and apparently reject it. So why not simply accept that there's nothing more we have to say to each other?

[terryl965]

Hello, The "CONTROVERSY" .....of the value or use of KATA's will go on forever.

Even if science proves.......the amount of value.....there will be those who will contiunue their beliefs.

Like eating three meals a day....science has proven that 5-6 smaller meals are better than the 3 ....but most of us will NEVER change? ..is it habits? ..or traditions? ....or we just follow what is given to us?

Gobal warming? ....science on both sides...believe in there research....yet...NO one knows for sure?

Most of us will fight the way we train! ....you hear and see this alot? ...is it true?

Most of us will NEVER get into a real fight.....this is good! ....because martial arts...is about awareness and avoiding dangerous situtions or stop them from escalations (VERBAL JUDO).

Prepareness for battle.....give you more choices to choose fight? or Flee?
or Stand the ground for being right! ...VERBAL JUDO....choosing the right words! for a win-win!

....sometimes we have NO choice by to fight back......never give-up....

some will fight to "WIN" ...some will fight "NOT to LOSE" ..........Aloha

PS: losing weight: some "win"..others "not to lose"....?


If you aee no value in Kata Poomsae Forms then why do you post so much, see I believe deep down inside you want somebody that actually knows all the right application to come out and say I will teach. Well guess what I'am giving you an open invitation to do just that anytime you are in my neck of the woods I would be happy to take a week and go over all the application in one of them for. This way you can see first hand how and when they can help you with your SD.

I'm not being sarcastic and I know you are in Hawaii but if anytime you find yourself coming this way or next time I visit Hawaii I would more than be happy to teach.

Take care and ALOHA.

[CuongNhuka]

I'm not being sarcastic and I know you are in Hawaii but if anytime you find yourself coming this way or next time I visit Hawaii I would more than be happy to teach.

Take care and ALOHA.

I second that if your ever in Nebraska.

[still learning]

still_learning, in a previous post I made the following suggestion:



I would like to urge you to consider adopting this as your own policy when questions of kata come up. The advantages are many, and will save everyone a good deal of needless frustration. You, for your part, will go on not doing kata, and will be saved the trouble of giving us reasons not to do kata that make no sense to us whatever. We will continue doing kata, and will not try further to persuade you to examine the evidence that kata contribute centrally to a total SD strategy. We've read what you have to say, considered it and rejected it. You've read what we have to say, and apparently reject it. So why not simply accept that there's nothing more we have to say to each other?


Hello, When the questions of others ask about "Kata'a and it Value? ...should I and others like me NOT Voice our thougths....and let this discussion be ONLY ONE WAY....just the agreeable point of view?

I am sure those in question? ...want to hear from all sides? ....do you agree? .....all points of view helps one to see the whole picture.

Most of the questioners? ...will read the concensus....and go with the majority of point of views? Those of us in the minority...at least was heard?

Some see the inside of things...others the just outside.....or some another side? ....in martial arts...lots of things are view differently....Kata's will forever have it controversy....People will want to know anld hear the many of point views? (they may see something they never thought of before)

It it better to just be agreeable? Many times when you see others point of view? ...it just makes yours points stronger.....this can be very good?

NO longer a sheep....NO longer just following...Always looking to learning more......we do learn from past mistakes...sometimes this is best way of learning........Kata? ...I too is searching for truths or values of it! ...my opinion may change again? ....who knows what the future will tell!

It is good to hear from both sides..........Thank-you and I do care about what you say here!

Aloha ...."OH what a lonely feeling" ...just kidding here!

[exile]

Hello, When the questions of others ask about "Kata'a and it Value? ...should I and others like me NOT Voice our thougths....and let this discussion be ONLY ONE WAY....just the agreeable point of view?


The problem is, still_learning, that it's not a discussion. You ask a question, get a huge amount of contentful information pointing to misconceptions you appear to have about something, and then proceed to post in a way which takes nothing you've been told into account. After a while, people decide it's a waste of time, since the information you've been provided, and the evidence you keep asking for, goes nowhere. You keep going on, for example, about `no longer acting like sheep', but in fact you've been given hard-core evidence of exactly how to use and train kata, and of the experience of very experienced fighters who have done so, showing a basis in actual experience that does not depend in the least on sheep-like acceptance of these points. I and a number of other people who've responded do indeed analyze and train kata this way and have tried to point out the various ways in which you've misunderstood what kata are for and how to train them. And you pay not the slightest attention; your posts give not the slightest indication that anything at all that's been said has registered.

Give all this, the fact is that it would be better all around if instead of soliciting information that you then disregard, you simply stopped soliciting that information in the first place and repeating opinions which do not take any of that information into account. It would (i) save you the trouble of posting, since the results would be the same, and (ii) save the people who respond to you the frustration and annoyance of taking time to answer your questions only to have you ignore the answers. It would also (iii) save us from having to be in the position of simply ignoring you, which eventually is probably what will happen—since replying to you yields nothing except more of what you were saying before you got information relevant to your query, information which you continue to disregard.

Given (i)–(iii), it should be clear to you why my simple suggestion will save both you and everyone else a lot of trouble for these reasons, and the results will be the same as when you post and then ignore the responses you get, and when we post and you disregard the content of our messages. Do you see now why I made that suggestion?

[Sukerkin]

I do concur with the sentiments encapsulated above, which eloquently lays out what has been suggested several times in this thread alone (let alone a number of others).

S_L, none of us like having to argue this point over and over and the aggrivation it's causing is a most unpleasant tension to gather.

I'm sure that most involved in this endless treadmill would not use 'negative rep' as a stick to beat you with, so it's not that type of reputation I'm speaking of when I say as kindly as I can that you are not doing yourself any favours by continuing as you are.

We know where you stand on this and you know where we stand. To continually resurrect it will only cause unnecessary disruption and that is not good for any of us.

[exile]

I do concur with the sentiments encapsulated above, which eloquently lays out what has been suggested several times in this thread alone (let alone a number of others).

S_L, none of us like having to argue this point over and over and the aggrivation it's causing is a most unpleasant tension to gather.

I'm sure that most involved in this endless treadmill would not use 'negative rep' as a stick to beat you with, so it's not that type of reputation I'm speaking of when I say as kindly as I can that you are not doing yourself any favours by continuing as you are.

We know where you stand on this and you know where we stand. To continually resurrect it will only cause unnecessary disruption and that is not good for any of us.

Perfectly put, S. You're still on my rep stack, but I owe you more for this really excellent encapsulation of things. Of course neg rep shouldn't come into play here; it's simply a matter of being time to stop the seemingly endless repetition of a pattern which apparently benefits noone.

In chess, when you have a certain position on the board and a given sequence of moves from that position is repeated three times, yielding the identical postion the sequence started from, the game is declared a stalemate and is by rule declared over. I think we're kind of in that same situation here, and I think the same decision as in chess is appropriate.