Certain TKD Tech.

[fissure]

Does the standard TKD method of forming a Knifehand block- returning both hands to the rear of the body when chambering- make sence to anyone?
I have always prefered the Karate method of leading with the non blocking hand, in fact I tend to do this with most of my blocking tech.
Also, does the idea of keeping your hips square during blocking motions (when formed in a front or walking stance) "feel right". I don't like having to rechamber my hips when punching after such.
Since I don't like these methods, I don't use them.I'm just wondering if anyone has a reason they are done this way - other than to be different than Karate.

[Bagatha]

Im not sure what your describing regarding the knifehand bock, there are a bizillion different knifehand blocks and many TKD schools will do them differently. The hips I can comment on though. EVERYONE knows that power comes from your hips, even Karate. If you didnt learn to roll [chamber or whatever] your hips then 1. Your teacher wasnt very good or 2. You didnt take it long enough because this is not exclusive to TKD at all. TKD took it from karate. Boxers do it. Kung Fu guys do it. Muay Thai, like everyone.

[mtabone]

Bagatha has it right.


Respectfully,

Michael Tabone

[fissure]

No,No,NO.
I'm fully aware that hip rotation gives power.
TKD, at least WTF TKD, finishes blocking tech. with the hips square when executed in a front stance. To then throw a reverse punch the hip has to be drawn back first, then shot forward again with the punch.
In Karate blocking motions end with the hips at an angle, such that the rear hip is already back, and doesn't need re- chambering.
If you thought I was disputing hip power, then I must not have asked my question very well. Possibly in ITF TKD (which I believe you practice?)front stance blocks end with the hips chambered, and you didn't realize my intent.
As to the standard middle knife hand block. Again in WTF land, the rear hand (the one that ends covering the solar plexas(s.p?)) is drawn to the rear of the body. This places BOTH hands at the side of your body farthest from your opponent. This just doesn't seem to make a whole lot of sense to me.
If ITF tech. standards differ from WTF ideals that may, again, be the reason you are having a hard time picturing what I am trying to describe.
BTW I have been practicing TKD for 17yrs, with almost a decade of Japanese arts prior to that. Quality and length of training are not a problem!
Perhaps another WTF guy can help me out here, White Belt I would like your thoughts. At least I think you will know what I'm talking about.

[Bagatha]

LOL!! Okay, I think I know what your talking about, we call it full facing. There are not too many blocks that we do in ITF TKD that end up full facing. I can tell you why not, so I dont know why you would.

Peace.

[jfarnsworth]

These are some of the reasons why I got out of TKD. My instructor at the time was an independent but previous he was sanctioned through the ITF. Anyway the knife hand blocks and various other things absolutely didn't make sense to me. After 5.5 yrs. I had to leave to search out something that suited me. I landed in a kenpo studio where everything had a purpose and a reason behind it. There was a phrase of "no wasted motion" that is a paramount of the kenpo system. Look at form 9 Choong-Moo. There's a 360 degree jumping spin CCW and when you land your double knifehand strike out moving CW. There's no practical purpose for this movement. I'm sorry for the rant excuse me but it's been on my mind for quite a while.

[Bagatha]

I dont think there is a practical purpose for any 1 of the moves in any of the patterns. Thats JMO. Does that make them useless?? Not in the least. Your coordination will improve 10 fold by practicing patterns. Everything will become easier and require less work the better you get at patterns. Does that mean Im going to run out and do Move # 1 from Saju Tirugi in a fight? Not a chance in hell lol.

[jfarnsworth]

Originally posted by Bagatha
Does that mean Im going to run out and do Move # 1 from Saju Tirugi in a fight? Not a chance in hell lol.

Sweet, I like your style. Seriously though I think my instructor at the time was running one of those mcdojo's:rolleyes: . What i felt had to pratical purpose had a lot to do with the forms. Most of all it was the self-defense tech.'s found within the system. Yeah fighting was fun but to understand a martial art you need to breakdown the self-defense tech. This is your meat and potatoes in any system. What we work on in kenpo is opposites, reverses, and many many more things. As I said everything has a purpose. I love it and it suits me perfectly. Thanks for taking the time to respond your feelings.:)

[Bagatha]

Sorry about your experiences, but at least you went out and found something that suited you. Alot of people would have quit altogether.

[jfarnsworth]

You've got that right. Most actually do once they reach black anyway. My wife hates the martial arts and tried to make me quit here in dec. It only lasted 3 weeks as I became a little frustrated without having my hands on weekly beatings in the studio;) . Then she decided I was a better person getting in the dojo. Anyway would you mind if I sent you something over a PM.

[fissure]

Full facing! That's a good description. No, don't get it either and have never heard a reasonable exp. for it in all of my many yrs. at TKD. that's why I don't do it!


Anyway the knife hand blocks and various other things absolutely didn't make sense to me


I dont think there is a practical purpose for any 1 of the moves in any of the patterns.

I hate to say it, but there are alternate applications for most tech. in TKD and other arts. As far as the knife hand middle block, I have 2 that I'm particularly fond of. I know that many MAist don't subscribe to these type of apps. So I won't get into them unless anyone wants to.
The problem I have with the TKD knife block is that these other apps. seem to fit it better than the first taught use i.e. a simple knife block! In all other instances the "basic" app fits the movement without adjustment, whereas the "advanced" app. often requires slight tweek.The "put both hands to the rear" chamber just doesn't seem to make sense in regard to the initially taught application.

[fissure]

Anyway the knife hand blocks and various other things absolutely didn't make sense to me


There's a 360 degree jumping spin CCW and when you land your double knifehand strike out moving CW. There's no practical purpose for this movement.

I think your "instructor" may not have been the most knowledgeable jfarnsworth! If he couldn't show you even 1 application for a movement it doesn't speak highly of his own instructor. Watering down is a problem in TKD even more so than other arts!

[fissure]

to understand a martial art you need to breakdown the self-defense tech. This is your meat and potatoes in any system. What we work on in kenpo is opposites, reverses, and many many more things. As I said everything has a purpose.

Indeed! This is how things should be done in MAs.This is how things are done in ligitimate TKD dojang as well.It seems that you were another in along list of victims of crap TKD.

[Bagatha]

Originally posted by jfarnsworth
Anyway would you mind if I sent you something over a PM.

I had a bad experience with 1 of the people here sending me PM's so I deactivated the feature. I will turn it on again now and you can try, but if it turns off again abruptly then thats why.

[white belt]

Fissure,

If I am understanding your question correctly, you are describing what is called two knife (or knives) high in my system. The forward hand ends up with the palm facing out and the rear hand ends up at the solar plexus while in a sideways stance.

Consider that you are not chambering with the front or rear hand. You are actually executing a PARRY when drawing your arms to the back in that "chamber". The front hands palm is making contact at the back of the punching arms elbow allowing it to slip past and reach its extension. The rear hand extends to the rear to guide and catch the thumb side of the forearm. To see this correctly, have another person extend their right arm and then put your right palm on the back/point of their right elbow while you stand with your right leg forward in a side stance. Your left/rear hand is in a rearward position with palm up near the partners wrist on that punching arm. The punching arm is now sandwiched or scissored between your hands in that rearward "chambered position". The scissoring itself can pop the punching arms elbow, if done accurately, with snap. The left hand keeps the punching arms elbow straight. Your left/rear hand is then trapping their arm against/across your ribcage when it comes forward into your solar plexus. Your right arm releases forward, into the Carotid or Trachea with the knife hand, as it slides across the top of the punching arm using it as a sort of guide to the attackers neck/throat area. The force of the knife hand blow to the neck causes the trapped arms elbow to hyperextend or break as it trys to turn around your ribcage with the forearm pinned tightly to you. The stepping forward of your right leg, with the forward right hand, is to step BEHIND or PAST the opponents left/forward leg and this sets up a trip or sweep allowing their falling bodyweight to add force to the hyperextending of the elbow. If the attackers arm slips out of your grasp at the solar plexus, the lead knife hand to the throat sends them over your right leg in throw like fashion anyway. In essence the TRUE block takes place DURING THE REARWARD CHAMBER AS A TYPE OF PARRY AND TRAP. The forward release is NOT the block, it is a COUNTERATTACK using a throat/neck strike with an elbow break and throw/sweep. The discarding of the proper rearward chamber will make this movement all but useless as a sensible tactic.

I know you have looked many times using the "typical" explanation and realized that by the time you start chambering, you are already being punched! I once felt the same way. It is frustrating because you know deep inside that it is right in front of you, but hidden at the same time. The chamber IS the block that redirects the punching arm. The palm portion of your chambering knife hand is redirecting/parrying the punch. The same knife hand coming forward is meeting their forward momentum, head on, at the throat. This is from my WTF TKD studies. If any further questions, let me know. The common explanations, that were spread for years, make the real apps. harder to see. We Occidentals have been fooled quite a bit it seems. These movements are not hollow exercises as some unfortunately think. They are all brutal fight stoppers when understood.

white belt

[fissure]

Interesting! From a prior post of mine:
I hate to say it, but there are alternate applications for most tech. in TKD and other arts. As far as the knife hand middle block, I have 2 that I'm particularly fond of.
The first uses the "rearward chamber" as a trapping motion to be followed by a knife hand block that has in fact now become a strike.
The second blocks and traps the attackers limb, pulls it in to and past you as your rear leg sweeps your opponent.
These seem quite similar to your own.

The block I'm talking about is the knife hand middle block in a back stance, the block that starts Koreyo. As I stated before, this tech. seem well suited to more advanced apps. but not for the most basic app. of being a simple knife hand block. In this most rudimentary of usage the action of placing both hand to the rear seems self defeating.

The problem I have with the TKD knife block is that these other apps. seem to fit it better than the first taught use i.e. a simple knife block! In all other instances the "basic" app fits the movement without adjustment, whereas the "advanced" app. often requires slight tweek.
For example: the use of a down block chamber as the blocking motion itself, the "pointing hand" as a strike/grab, and the downward blocking movement as a strike. This app. fits the movement, only needing a slight adjustment of the chamber (now a block) to cover more of the side of the face and head.
However, when a down blocking motion is used as a down block things still make sense - everything is where it is needs to be!
With the middle knife hand block the basic app. seeems to fall apart, making me wonder if it should even be called as such!

[fissure]

White Belt, as a WTF affiliated dojang do you end your blocking tech. performed from the front stance with your hips square or full facing (thank you Bagatha!) as put forth by the Kukkiwon Textbook?
I can still think of no reason to do this! The need to rechamber the hips for a counter punch combined with the increased amount of ones torso that is offered as a target would seem to be self defeating.
These 2 items have bugged me over the years, even with much thought and varied training.
My conclusion (at least for the moment) is that the WTF TKD knife hand middle block should not be taught as a knife hand middle block at all. It's a perfectly good movement - just not for the commonly stated purpose.
And that in their wisdom someone in Korea thought that squaring up the hips in the movements I have described would be a good way to make WTF TKD look different from Shotokan!

[white belt]

Fissure,

My apologies. :) I went at length explaining an app. that you already know while misunderstanding the question. Yes, I agree that the "basic" apps. first taught to a student are misleading. I think a lot of the intent has to do with teaching basic motor skills to a new student. The simplest explanation or app. is used, which in reality is all but useless. I asked my GM about this a couple of times and I received two explanations. First, he had too many students overthinking the "real" apps., if taught from the get go, and they learned/performed the forms way too slow. Most would get a log jam and freeze up. They are not that easy to visualize without a partner standing in front of you. The Second reason he got away from teaching "real" apps. was that a few students in his past seriously hurt people outside of the DoJang. He questioned whether or not this was justified. A lawsuit was even threatened toward him for teaching an irresponsible student apps. that maimed someone. He was just trying to run a school like anybody else and keep the doors open. He backed off on teaching this stuff and he is real jumpy about me ending up in a mess if I teach the wrong person. This view from a certified GM and then beginners not really knowing the true apps. that later become Instructors is part of the reason why McDojangs pop up. Advanced, and supposedly advanced, people teaching the things you point out that get people's asses kicked by know nothings.

There is a thread titled "Won-Hyo technical question". I tried to share an advanced app. with a couple of people (not very successfully), concerning a low block using the front stance. If you examine, and can understand my attempted explanation, you will see why the squaring of the hips fully forward would be essential in this case. The hips following through give more power to the rotational forces needed to properly break or snap the persons leg joints. The partial hip rotation is a beginning way taught at my school for the "beginning" apps. If the advanced app. is not being taught, the partial hip rotation more matches the beginners interpretation or application. The advanced apps. match the full turning or front facing of the hips because the hips are fueling the rendering of joint tissue. I have come off a bit snobbish during my explanations because I express concern about someone getting hurt doing this stuff. I now assume that is a given and people will do these things at their own risk. I have had my knee broken and I just don't want anyone to go thru what I have if they don't deserve it. :)

Well, hopefully I am understanding your questions better!

The two knife block in the beginning of Koryo. I use the "kick catching app.". The double sidekick is then aimed at the opponents posted knee and groin respectively. Ditto?

white belt

[fissure]

The two knife block in the beginning of Koryo. I use the "kick catching app.". The double sidekick is then aimed at the opponents posted knee and groin respectively. Ditto?

Yes, block and trap the shin area for a round kick or the calf area against a side ( or back) kick. Then bouble side kick to the areas you mention.Knife stike to the neck+ sweep with the forward leg (extend behind the opponent support leg - pulling your leg back toward you into the front stance, bringing his leg out in front of him. Of course in all likelihood the side kicks you delt would probably have him on the groud already!), finish with the reverse punch to your now "downed" opponent.
Damn, it's hard to get these things across in print!!

I can see where a full forwrd hip rotation would benift when a front stance blocking motion is being used in a trapping/breaking application.
I think the broblem I'm having is one due to prior exp. When training in Japanese arts the (slightly different) motions seemed to best fit the basic (althought I don't think any "less correct") application. With TKD however some movements seem to be a far better fit for the alternative uses, leaving the first taught tech. wanting.
Probably it's just my mindset but I feel that a movement should at least make sence in the application it is named for, i.e. a knife hand block should first make sence to use as such, before being named so!
I read and posted in the other thread you mentioned.I think my impression of your posts at that time were that you thought that app. xyz, was the "only" or the "best" app. for a movement.
I'm still not sure where you stand on this. My thoughts at this time are that any application that WORKS for a given movement , without alltering it a huge way is fine with me!
I'm enjoying this discussion very much, thanks for your responses.:asian:

[white belt]

Fissure,

You demonstrate an understanding of apps. that unfortunately for TKD is rare. You also explain in text very well. I don't give credence to the "rough fit" apps. If the fit is comfortable, w/o my making some stretch of alteration, I embrace it.

The beginners apps. are the status quo to far too many people. I include some people of high rank in that statement. This is not a jab at them. It is just an indication as to where faithful dogma can lead. Nowhere. You then end up with practicioners that are jaded concerning the forms usefullness. If I only allowed the beginning version of apps. to be my focus, I too would be jaded.

Here is where I expect to catch heat. The legacy series, by GM Choi, focuses on beginning apps. primarily. This has led to the majority of ITF students thinking those apps. are the final word. They are to be admired in their faithfulness, but they don't consider the possibility of advanced apps. taught by GM Choi to advanced students. The printed versions are not the final word. I don't believe GM Choi meant this limitation to happen. I think he meant to give a clean starting reference for teachers and students so later they COULD understand the advanced possibilities. Not to stop dead in their understanding. The explanations I give, to the moves in Won-Hyo, breathes new power into the old block and punch beginner apps. This is not some genious on my part, it is genious meant to be shared by the creator/s. I am just reading their "physical record".

Well, here it comes! :)
white belt

[fissure]

I don't think that this is a problem unique to ITF TKD. If you go through the latest Kukkiwon TKD Textbook, very little is offered in the way of alternate ( I like this word more than "advanced") application.
The man who used to be my instructor - I don't consider him to be such anymore due to the fact that his instruction ended with basic tech. many years ago, I now think of him as a friend - and all of his contemporaries think only in terms of the most basic possibilities for tech. When something makes little sense on it's face, he/they often respond with "it's in there to show concentration" or something along those lines.

It has been my exp. that people are either receptive to the possibility of alternate apps. or they are so horrified that they would like to burn you at the stake! That's why I don't talk about these things unless someone says they are interested, it's their call. In much the same way, if all someone is interested in, is competition then I don't have a problem with that either. Someone's reason for what they chose to do, or not do, is their own.
I wish that I would have had someone like your GM to guide me in these things - struggling through be myself has been a VERY slow process!

[fissure]

Here is where I expect to catch heat

At least you acknowledge that you brought it on yourself! Perhaps a kevlar Hogu might help?;)

[Bagatha]

Yes you are going to catch heat here! ;) For you are stating something that you dont know for sure, you are just assuming.

My instructor was the creator of the legacy series and I had the privalidge of taking part in some of the video shoots and listining in on the conversations that took place between Master Choi, and the seniors. Nevermind the 5 technical seminars I have been too. The techniques are strikes. They were designed to be strikes, they are effective as strikes. They are performed completely different from WTF techniques so maybe yours arent strikes I dunno, but these ones are for sure without question. Strikes. Call it limited if you want but there are grappling moves which are COMPLETELY seperate from the techniques performed in patterns. The "advanced" techniques you speak of that are only taught to "advanced" students is funny. We are taught the right way from day 1 and just build on it. You dont have to learn the beginner way and then the right way and then the special way. As if those damn patterns arent hard enough. One example of an advaced move is in Juche having to perform a reverse turning kick (like hooking but leg is straight) stopping <- thats right "stopping" on a 45 degree angle from the front, all while moving 1 stance length backwards. Not too many people can negotiate this move correctly. But it is still a stike. Like fissure pointed out, if it was meant to be something else then they would have named it something else. I happen to have an encyclopedia from each style here, 1 from WTF and 1 from ITF. Totally different monstors. ITF appears to have hundreds more techniques in its 15 volumes. The WTF book here by contrast is a small paper cover having 218 pages. Im not saying more is better or that WTF doesnt do the same things, I am suggesting that WTF doesnt officially "name" differences in technique to the extent that ITF does. Like the example above, a reverse hooking kick vs a reverse turning kick, same kick only one the leg closes and the other the leg remains straight. But it is given different names for different ways to perform it. The grappling moves you speak of actually have names for them, like "checking x-block". That is a block that is meant to turn into a grab. The low block does not. The General was very thourough and VERY specific as to what was what and the reasons why. Leaves little room for guesswork. Im going to stop here but if you want to go into specific details later thats fine. We have to make it fast though because my intermet is getting cut off by the end of the month.


Originally posted by white belt
Fissure,

You demonstrate an understanding of apps. that unfortunately for TKD is rare. You also explain in text very well. I don't give credence to the "rough fit" apps. If the fit is comfortable, w/o my making some stretch of alteration, I embrace it.

The beginners apps. are the status quo to far too many people. I include some people of high rank in that statement. This is not a jab at them. It is just an indication as to where faithful dogma can lead. Nowhere. You then end up with practicioners that are jaded concerning the forms usefullness. If I only allowed the beginning version of apps. to be my focus, I too would be jaded.

Here is where I expect to catch heat. The legacy series, by GM Choi, focuses on beginning apps. primarily. This has led to the majority of ITF students thinking those apps. are the final word. They are to be admired in their faithfulness, but they don't consider the possibility of advanced apps. taught by GM Choi to advanced students. The printed versions are not the final word. I don't believe GM Choi meant this limitation to happen. I think he meant to give a clean starting reference for teachers and students so later they COULD understand the advanced possibilities. Not to stop dead in their understanding. The explanations I give, to the moves in Won-Hyo, breathes new power into the old block and punch beginner apps. This is not some genious on my part, it is genious meant to be shared by the creator/s. I am just reading their "physical record".

Well, here it comes! :)
white belt

[fissure]

I won't answer for white belt in any way, I'm sure he is more than capable of defending his position.
I will say however that I was unaware of the differences between ITF and WTF TKD, outside of sparring rules and regulations.
If you look at the first few posts between us Bagatha, we had almost no idea what the other was talking about! Is ITF the more prevalent of the 2 org. in Canada? In the U.S. ( at least down here in FL) I believe that WTF dojang are more commonplace.

Do you subscribe to various applications for tech. in any way? Is this at all a concept with in the MA community as you know it?
Do you ever use the in to out blocking motion as a trap and elbow jiont attack? If so does this tech. have a specific name within the ITF seperating it form the blocking motion?I kn ow I have alot of questions!
Like I said before:

It has been my exp. that people are either receptive to the possibility of alternate apps. or they are so horrified that they would like to burn you at the stake! That's why I don't talk about these things unless someone says they are interested, it's their call
By for now.:)

[white belt]

Fissure,

Yes, WTF people are guilty of restrictions with apps. as well. I agree. The ITF "cult" subject, of this thread, is congruent with some ITF views I have come across concerning a different view of GM Choi's legacy series apps. It is gospel, etc. to most and that almost seems cult like. I understand how people like to support their organizations. The bad mouthing of TKD's "unrealistic forms" stems greatly from the unyielding propensity toward blind faith and leaving the basics interpretations "as is" attitude. This has helped lead to a weak image of TKD, to many outsiders, as well as frustrated practicioners. On the subject of finding "advanced apps.", I too have toiled to find 99.9 % of what I have. My GM allows me to ask for verification is all. That is more than a lot of people get, I'm sure. I am thankful to have that much. I also realize the intensive thought, that goes into unlocking these things, has helped me become a better source of knowledge for my students.

I am not sure if you are familiar with the Judo throw "Uchimata". Are you aware of a version of this throw being in Koryo and where it is at? It is actually a "Rising Sidekick" as first taught. I don't have all the advanced apps. unlocked, but maybe we can share, to speed the proccess, if you are still unlocking too (?). My use of the term "advanced" is to refer to the more useable apps. beyond the beginning apps. That is all. I am not refering to myself, as some might assume. I use the name "white belt" for good reason. :)

I Dig Chop, Chop!,
white belt

[jfarnsworth]

Originally posted by fissure
Do you subscribe to various applications for tech. in any way? Is this at all a concept with in the MA community as you know it?
Do you ever use the in to out blocking motion as a trap and elbow jiont attack? If so does this tech. have a specific name within the ITF seperating it form the blocking motion?I kn ow I have alot of questions!
Like I said before:

By for now.:)

Yes, all of the time. Blocks should always cross your centerline therefore traps are easily accessable. I would also call this a joint manipulation rather than a specific technique. A block is a block but a trap is different. But I do this as a left inward parry followed by a right upward back knuckle strike to the bottom of the arm (this buys a moment to trap) after the upward strike the right arm contours up to gain the trap on the outside of the attackers elbow. As far as any difference between ITF and WTF I can't really tell you. I was only involved in one not both.

[white belt]

Originally posted by Bagatha
Yes you are going to catch heat here! ;) For you are stating something that you dont know for sure, you are just assuming.

My instructor was the creator of the legacy series and I had the privalidge of taking part in some of the video shoots and listining in on the conversations that took place between Master Choi, and the seniors. Nevermind the 5 technical seminars I have been too. The techniques are strikes. They were designed to be strikes, they are effective as strikes. They are performed completely different from WTF techniques so maybe yours arent strikes I dunno, but these ones are for sure without question. Strikes. Call it limited if you want but there are grappling moves which are COMPLETELY seperate from the techniques performed in patterns. The "advanced" techniques you speak of that are only taught to "advanced" students is funny. We are taught the right way from day 1 and just build on it. You dont have to learn the beginner way and then the right way and then the special way. As if those damn patterns arent hard enough. One example of an advaced move is in Juche having to perform a reverse turning kick (like hooking but leg is straight) stopping <- thats right "stopping" on a 45 degree angle from the front, all while moving 1 stance length backwards. Not too many people can negotiate this move correctly. But it is still a stike. Like fissure pointed out, if it was meant to be something else then they would have named it something else. I happen to have an encyclopedia from each style here, 1 from WTF and 1 from ITF. Totally different monstors. ITF appears to have hundreds more techniques in its 15 volumes. The WTF book here by contrast is a small paper cover having 218 pages. Im not saying more is better or that WTF doesnt do the same things, I am suggesting that WTF doesnt officially "name" differences in technique to the extent that ITF does. Like the example above, a reverse hooking kick vs a reverse turning kick, same kick only one the leg closes and the other the leg remains straight. But it is given different names for different ways to perform it. The grappling moves you speak of actually have names for them, like "checking x-block". That is a block that is meant to turn into a grab. The low block does not. The General was very thourough and VERY specific as to what was what and the reasons why. Leaves little room for guesswork. Im going to stop here but if you want to go into specific details later thats fine. We have to make it fast though because my intermet is getting cut off by the end of the month.

:) I don't see any cult behavior here! :)

Fissure,

Look at my low block explanation and then look at the legacy explanation when you can get a copy. The legacy "basic" explanation will get you hurt if tried against even a half assed kick. General Choi obviously knew more than this and wasn't sharing with everyone. That is a stark conclusion for me. I'm interested to see your take on this. The posts by Mr. Mavis, in the Won-Hyo thread, insinuate he feels a lack of practicality in the commonly subscribed to interpretations also. I believe he is an ITF member. Damian could better illuminate for us if he is available and reading this. That bumper sticker "My Karma ran over your Dogma", for some reason, is coming to mind on this "cult" like subject! :)

white belt

p.s.

A poll: Is it safe to "assume" a full power front kick to my groin would hurt if I watch somebody else receive one and blow chunks while snapping to fetal position? "Assuming" fetal position might be a better choice of words? :) Ow! Damn that low block!

[Bagatha]

Patterns are patterns

Sparring is sparring

Grappling is grappling

I dont speak for all ITF folk here, but I am strongly against the idea that patterns will help you with sparring, or that grappling will help you with patterns or point sparring will help you with grappling etc. I love grappling, I love patterns, I love sparring, but the only way they compliment each other is in a street situation, where you can strike, block and submit. Otherwise you need to work at patterns to get better at patterns, you dont work at patterns to get better at sparring, or whatever. and nobody does proper technique in pretty little stances in a street fight. When you learn grappling it doesnt look anything like patterns, so to take patterns and try to turn it into grappling applications seems like quite a leap of faith to me. Again, our patterns are totally different so maybe for WTF it does have these "hidden" purposes. But like I said if it was meant to be for grappling applications then General Choi would have told someone. Further then that, the positions and applications of many of the techniques such as the low outer forearm block make it very akward to change it into some kind of grappling appication. You would have to see it to understand. Unlike WTF techniques our hands stay far away from our body for this particular move. Anyone with any grappling experience knows this is a no no.

WTF is quite a bit larger in Canada aswell. On my street alone there are 3 WTF clubs within mere blocks of each other. There are only 3 ITF clubs in the whole city. It is easier for me to say this "matter of factly" because the ITF community is so small. Us lower ranks get the privy of "hanging" with some of the most senior masters in the ITF on an almost regular basis.

[fissure]

I am not sure if you are familiar with the Judo throw "Uchimata". Are you aware of a version of this throw being in Koryo and where it is at?
It has been a long time since I trained in Judo, so the name of this throw meens nothing to me, however - I assume ( always risky!) that you are refering to the "twisting hip throw" that can be derived from the knife block, punch, turn w/lower spear attack sequence. The throw brings to light the otherwise pointless motion of forcefully pulling both hands to the "pivot" hip.


Look at my low block explanation and then look at the legacy explanation when you can get a copy. The legacy "basic" explanation will get you hurt if tried against even a half assed kick.
I don't know anything about ITF poomse or even what this whole "legacy" thing is about. As such I'm not going to make guesses or opinions regarding either, in the same way I wouldn't want someone else taking "stabs in the dark" about my training.

[fissure]

I happen to have an encyclopedia from each style here, 1 from WTF and 1 from ITF. Totally different monstors. ITF appears to have hundreds more techniques in its 15 volumes. The WTF book here by contrast is a small paper cover having 218 pages.
The current WTF Kukkiwon Textbook is 766 pages. Not exactly War And Peace, and no doubt shorter that the ITF encyclopedia - but certainly not the book you have.As I understand it there is but one Official ITF manual, the same is true for the WTF.

From your post Bagatha, I get the feeling that you don't find a use for forms other than "doing" forms. You don't feel that poomse/kata hold the key to a MA? If that is their only purpose, do you think that a MA could remove forms from training and suffer no consequences?
I'm not looking for a fight here, I'm interested in your views on these things.

[fissure]

Mr Farnsworth, it would appear that you have found an art that you feel makes sense to you. No doubt the result of quality instruction! This later aspect is what you were probably missing in your TKD training. You mentioned that some things in TKD didn't make sense and so you left for greener pastures. I feel like saying "sorry about your TKD exp." Just remember every art has its frauds!

[Marginal]

Slightly different question, but the way sparring's seperate from grappling (ho son sul), the way patterns are seperate from either etc in most ITF schools I've heard about, doesn't that make them way harder to integrate into a cohesive style?

If the WTF dojangs take a similar approach how is that as complete as say, an art that doesn't seperate sparring and grabbing and so on?

[ThuNder_FoOt]

Wow, there is some very controversial views going on in this thread. Its great to hear such opinionated views on such topics.

My personal experience lays towards White Belt's views. I feel that within the WTF forms, the thought of "Formless form" was put into motion. just my humble opinion.

[fissure]

Marginal - This only applies to sport sparring. Poomse contain all of tech. of an art. Tournament style sparring has almost nothing to do with actual Martial Arts.
Problems only arise when sport sparring becomes the main focus of a school.
At least, that what I think!;)

[jfarnsworth]

Originally posted by fissure
Mr Farnsworth, it would appear that you have found an art that you feel makes sense to you. No doubt the result of quality instruction! This later aspect is what you were probably missing in your TKD training. You mentioned that some things in TKD didn't make sense and so you left for greener pastures. I feel like saying "sorry about your TKD exp." Just remember every art has its frauds!

I did like the fact that I was in the TKD art. If you look in my profile I do list my achievements and also don't push them on anyone. I also learned a great deal on how to kick and kick properly might I add. However I did train with 3 different TKD instructors in my 5.5 yrs as I was heavily involved training as much as 5 nights a week in the dojo. One particular person I trained with was in the olympics trials in '88 and '92 as well. He really taught me the art of kicking. Also I made mention to not understanding some of the movements because they did not have "practical purpose". What I mean by that is if you look at um, I think it is Won-Hyo there is a walking stance with 3 double knifehand blocks if I remember corrrectly. Give me an example on how you would use these in combat?
Again I'd have to agree with bagatha on nothing you do in the dojo is going to be pretty in any street altercation. NEVER will it be the same. Your body will only react to what it's used to doing. You must train for all four ranges of combat not just one or two. Just my couple of pennies here. I'm enjoying this and not trying to step on anyone's toes or hurt feelings. I'm here to learn just like everyone else.

[fissure]

Who was the guy you trained with who made team trials? I know a lot of the guys who placed at nationals and team trials, unfortunately I never made it past quater finals at USTU nationals myself.:(
Currious - Olympic competion is the baby of the WTF. Did you train at a WTF dojang or was this a ITF guy who for a short time joined the USTU (US branch of the WTF) just for a shot at the Olympic team?


You must train for all four ranges of combat not just one or two.
I agree. That is why sport sparring cannot become the only form of combat training that is practiced. A wide array of situations should be worked through, striking, grappling (standing and ground work),ect. all at ranges, as you obviously know! These things are universal among MA, TKD included - unfortunately not at the TKD dojang you experienced.

Sorry, I know nothing about ITF forms. Without knowing exactly what you are speaking of, I could only make a possible interpretation.

there is a walking stance with 3 double knifehand blocks if I remember correctly. Give me an example on how you would use these in combat?
Again I don't know if these are in one fixed stance or singular consecutive blocks each in it's own stance, but possibly -
first knife hand block simply blocks, second knife hand motion attacks the opponents limb ( which is trapped after being blocked), and the third knife hand motion attacks the opponents neck/throat area. Again I have zero exp. in ITF TKD, including forms. I don't know how these blocks are executed in relation to each other.
I offer this line of thought based upon a similar application of 3 consecutive high blocks used in the early Karate forms I was taught (Kibon possibly - can't remember if that's the right name!).

I agree that nothing plays out in the real world as it does in the dojang. I think that formal training is directed toward an ideal, with the expectation that very little in life actually IS ideal.

I like the analogy of a football play. On the practice field a half back pitch is drawn up, showing where everyone is supposed to be and what they should be doing. Once the play is run during the game everything starts to change! The HB takes a slightly different angle. The FB doesn't get a solid block on the Middle Linebacker. The pesky Strong safety reads the play much sooner that expected. Before you know it the running back is improvising his ass off!
Question is - does the fact that in a real game (feel free to sub. in real life) things most often don't go as planned, should the ideal no longer be practiced?
I'm enjoying this thread too, I'm glad I started it! (puffs his chest out!)

[jfarnsworth]

Originally posted by fissure
I'm enjoying this thread too, I'm glad I started it! (puffs his chest out!)

Right on!! As for the gentleman I trained with I think I'd rather get his permission to use it on an open forum like this.

[fissure]

I understand completely!

[Marginal]

Originally posted by fissure
Marginal - This only applies to sport sparring. Poomse contain all of tech. of an art. Tournament style sparring has almost nothing to do with actual Martial Arts.


I'm just wondering why that has to be the case. Why water down the sparring? Especially in organizations that have no reason to follow Olymic sparring rules, doesn't seem like there's much reason to restrict grabbing during sparring and so on.

[fissure]

It doesn't have to be the case! Assuming that you can get enough guys together who want to beat the crap out of each other.
Seriously, most people in today's MA schools are not that interested in going hard and heavy. They don't like leaving class with knots up and down their forearms. They don't want to deal with sore ribs, split lips and such. It's a sad fact, but a fact nonetheless, that the average student in the average school is looking for a good work out not an intense MA session. Sport sparring is about as far as most really want to go.

[Marginal]

Doesn't even take hard and heavy really though. Just put down some mats and teach breakfalls. Get sweeps and holds and throws in there along with the hitting. Even then you could still get away with less contact while better integrating the stuff that's taught. (IMO at least.) It's not too far removed from the tournament sparring rules in several Karate organizations, so people seem to be able to take it without running away in total fear for their lives. ;)

Meh. It's mainly a rhetorical question. I just wish the answer wasn't automatically "Well, go somewhere else/find like minded people and train." You'd think there would be some elemetns within any given organization with the political motivation to shake things up from time to time.

[fissure]

From one of my posts on this page:

That is why sport sparring cannot become the only form of combat training that is practiced. A wide array of situations should be worked through, striking, grappling (standing and ground work),ect. all at ranges, as you obviously know! These things are universal among MA, TKD included

I don't think we are in dissagreement about anything!

[Marginal]

Heh. Yeah, I was just making a comment, not trying to argue about much of anything. ;)

[white belt]

Fissure,

Apologies again for not being descript enough. The throw "Uchimata" is the inner thigh reaping or lifting throw. The punch to palm motion, followed by the arms positions afterward, are to setup and secure the head and arm of the opponent closely to you as you release a twisting rising high side kick IN BETWEEN THEIR LEGS. The kicking legs motion upward is lifting inside the thigh that is opposite the side of the arm being secured. This causes their leg to be reaped and lifted very high as your upending force causes their body to roll around your hips to the side where you are securing their arm. That arm is pulled/guided down while using head control on the back of their head from the other hand. By using the securing/cupping motion of the palm, under the elbow as they are falling, their own body weight coming down snaps their elbow joint in the palm of your hand. The key there is making sure the opponents forearm is secured into your armpit. The spear hand down is an attack to the suprasternal notch which of course is a killing blow.
I hope my typing makes sense of this for you. If the Uchimata throw using your kicking leg isn't clear enough in my words, pick up any decent Judo book using a depiction of the thrower and the lights will go off over your head concerning that "rising side kick". :) It is a vicious application when described. A summary: A throat or nose punch, after a Carotid knife hand, a painful scraping side kick along the inner thighs femoral tract while moving the kicking leg up towards the groin, the groin muscles are then stretched or ripped propelling the throw as their elbow is broken during flight toward the hard ground and then the throat is rendered. A Bummer. :)


The separation of free sparring, self defense and patterns is to allow proper learning of each individually. There are key focal points in each that must be developed first before the successful integration of all can take place. Yes, I am saying it is possible and I have been doing it for some time. I know this is hard to visualize for a lot of people who have trained a certain way for years. It is this level of development that must be sought after to feel "whole" in what one has been doing seperate for so long. This is a common point of stagnation/frustration that is just as hard as the "advanced" apps. transition phase. A lot of students don't go any further with it because they either don't know how or think it is blasphemous to some dogma handed to them. There are a high number of students that get weeded out at this juncture too, due to boredom, frustration or both.

The example of the chambering being the true movement in many blocks is a good place to see where the integration takes place. Once the advanced apps. are being realized and practiced with a partner, the safety given the blocker, through position alone, enables that same person to apply it to his or her free sparring AND self defense. Just concentrating on the footwork or stances is the best place to start putting it all together. The "blind side" of the opponent is sought after in many self defense and advanced apps. Advanced sparring is NO DIFFERENT. If anyone does not understand my explanation, please look at my posts on the thread "How to spar a Flamingo fighter". I think that is the correct thread title (?). Also my posts on "Sparring against a Puncher". The "awkward" Front Stance is addressing something earlier alluded to. The opponents centerline and stepping off of it around the opponents FORWARD side. This puts your centerline adjacent to your opponents BLIND SPOT. If you have someone standing left side forward in a sparring stance and you step at a 45 deg. angle w/your right foot forward, outside their left, they are in deep doo doo. Their stance is crossed up and you are set for delivery. This is what the front stance in your forms does for free sparring and self defense. The Thai fighters use this forward step to deliver bone crushing cross body roundhouses with the rear leg out of the "front stance". That step moves away from their opponents power side into their blind spot. The left r.h. kick is fired as soon as the lead right leg touches down. I fluster my sparring partners frequently with this tactic. I got it from stepping into a front stance for years. A front stance from my forms! The hand chambering or drawing in your forms many times addresses dilemmas presented when caught flat footed during an attack in free sparring as well as self defense. The two hand knife chambering motion itself can cover you from groin to nose when being kicked during self defense or free sparring. The releasing action into a throw or joint lock is just not applied to your free sparring partner is all. The covering and deflecting motion is plenty enough to subvert their intent. In self defense, the forward release of the two knife high can be a leg lock against a kick as mentioned discussing Koryo earlier. I highly recommend a book titled "Sabaki method" by Ninomiya and Zorensky to anyone interested in the blind side concept I have tried to explain. Proper blindside manipulation is common to ALL stiking arts. The stepping off at a slight angle and forward motion of the common front stance is a strong foundation for live, dynamic applications if understood. Cult members need not apply! :) (Joking, honest!)

white belt

p.s.
Wasn't Frank Sinatra "Chairman of The Borg"? Maybe it's the song "I get a KICK out of you!" I'm referencing? :)

[fissure]

Marginal - You're preaching to the quire! I had all the arguing I care to have on other threads here at Martial Talk.I'm gunna do my best to stick to discussing the kinds of things that this thread has centered on.:)

[fissure]

White Belt, maybe you missed it , but from one of my prior posts:

It has been a long time since I trained in Judo, so the name of this throw meens nothing to me, however - I assume ( always risky!) that you are refering to the "twisting hip throw" that can be derived from the knife block, punch, turn w/lower spear attack sequence. The throw brings to light the otherwise pointless motion of forcefully pulling both hands to the "pivot" hip.
Have you noticed that your descriptions are always far longer than mine?:D

[fissure]

If the Uchimata throw using your kicking leg isn't clear enough in my words, pick up any decent Judo book using a depiction of the thrower and the lights will go off over your head concerning that "rising side kick".
As you can see from my last post this is another application that I've already found.
The lights went off in my head, when I was told that the "forcefull rechamber" after the punch too palm motion was me pulling my atackers uper torso toward my hip while I was side kicking them! Have you ever tried this? It's impossible , for me at least!:D

[white belt]

Fissure,

Yes, I agree. You are more succinct than I. I wanted to be sure my thoughts were coming off clearly is all. The tide of common opinion is further against me without clarification too. The seeds of doubt gestate in the smallest of crevices, you know. So, is the ITF kinda' cultish? :)

The resuscitation method for Uchimata involves palm slaps to the back and sides of the head. I believe the Japanese term is "Wotsamata?". :)

white belt

[white belt]

Fissure,

The pull you are refering to is done a split second prior to the kicking legs lifting motion. The pull is actually gripped with the punching hand, after the punch, at their upper tricep/shoulder area or near the elbow just above, depending on partner size. Your arm/elbow clamps down on their arm to be broken soon thereafter. The cupped hand that was punched into is wrapped around the back of their head and/or neck or underhooked through their other armpit, if you are feeling nice. If you aren't, you palm their chin with your cupped hand, after the punch, you force the head to rotate violently in the direction of the throw and they either go along or get their neck broken. The cranking of the chin back and around goes in the same circular direction as your pivoting posted foot and arm gripping pull. While you are pulling, your posted leg and upper body turn 180 deg. as the kick is executed. The posted legs toes point opposite of the direction of the kick, causing the opponent to spin around your hip and off your kicking leg. The securing arm then pulls up with the palm and snaps theirs. When your kicking leg comes down, you are in a type of front stance over your victim. Try the head control feature with your palm on their chin. They will WANT to be thrown! Yes, I have this working like butter with different sizes of partners.

white belt

p.s.
Good thing we aren't part of a cult or something! :)

[Marginal]

Originally posted by white belt

Good thing we aren't part of a cult or something! :) What point is there to including this in every post you make?

[TkdWarrior]

Intresting discussion u got here guys...
wat did i miss? let's see
1. proper Description of Patterns
2. Sparring
3. grappling

i do like ur discussions about finding techniques from the patterns n i do believe that other parts of TKD(sparring/grappling etc) are part of patterns but
when u start teaching all of it as a different techniques then it's bit easy to learn TKD(that's why soooo many TKD school) but saying that TKD left the tricks/technques won't be rite(even by TKDist himself), i'll say that TKD isn't complete art by any means but when one can easily learn most of techniques(which r described here)then i don't think one hav to make fuss over this.

A lot of students don't go any further with it because they either don't know how or think it is blasphemous to some dogma handed to them.
hmm that's intresting, i used to think that students doesn't go any further due to rigidity of their ownself... if u look with open eyes u can really go further...
u know wat else i blame for this...
our Masters...why? because none of them hav a history like Wong Fei Hung/Hung kai kwan none of them can fly or shoot chi balls, noone involve with No Touch KO's :D if any single TKD Master can do that i'll bet We'll Kick Some Serious As$ ;)
-TkdWarrior-

[Bagatha]

Originally posted by Marginal
What point is there to including this in every post you make?

Haha, hes just mad because someone thinks differently. Its bound to happen after awhile. Maybe Ill go hang out in the Kung Fu forum for awhile and tell them how to do their patterns. LOL.

[Bagatha]

Originally posted by fissure
The current WTF Kukkiwon Textbook is 766 pages. Not exactly War And Peace, and no doubt shorter that the ITF encyclopedia - but certainly not the book you have.As I understand it there is but one Official ITF manual, the same is true for the WTF.

From your post Bagatha, I get the feeling that you don't find a use for forms other than "doing" forms. You don't feel that poomse/kata hold the key to a MA? If that is their only purpose, do you think that a MA could remove forms from training and suffer no consequences?
I'm not looking for a fight here, I'm interested in your views on these things.

Yeah I dont know if I have the "official" one here or not, but it is pretty old. 1989. Oh well, whatever, it was just a passing thought that maybe the reason it was so much shorter was because there wasnt a name given to every little thing like the other one.

I think that Patterns/Kata whatever you call it can be removed and supplimented with similar floor excercises and the art would not miss it yes. They are easily replaceble. I do however enjoy them very much, for that reason alone, "I" would miss them. But like I said I dont think overall people would be lesser fighters because of it.

[fissure]

Bagatha - Lesser fighters? - probably not. But I think they might be lesser Martial Artists. It is a common held dogma that forms are what separates Traditional MA, from their newer Mixed MA cousins. You seem not to agree with this.
Do you feel that the ability to simply fight is the begining and end of a MA practitioner?

[fissure]

White Belt,

The pull you are refering to is done a split second prior to the kicking legs lifting motion. The pull is actually gripped with the punching hand......
Man, you love to describe things I already know!:D ;)

I think that I'm fairly sure you are busting balls with the ITF cult angle - but not completly! Maybe someone had a bed exp. at some point?Hmmmm....:)

[jfarnsworth]

Originally posted by fissure
...I think they might be lesser Martial Artists. It is a common held dogma that forms are what separates Traditional MA, from their newer Mixed MA cousins. You seem not to agree with this.
Do you feel that the ability to simply fight is the begining and end of a MA practitioner?

I was going to answer something on the previous page but I'll do it now. Personally what's being lessened is the mentality of people. In this day and age "usually" people want something for nothing with as little effort as possible. The forms give you examples and ideas of motion or self defense if you will. My feeling is you need a self-defense curriculum as well as forms. I've been around for a while and have seen people that just love to fight and don't practice the forms. Fighting is good don't get me wrong. Different forms of fighting are necessary to grow as a martial artist.

[white belt]

Originally posted by Marginal
What point is there to including this in every post you make?

Marginal,

I'm making a joking reference to the "Is the ITF a cult" thread, with that statement. A "cult" would be the wrong people to teach life threatening stuff to, eh? Such as advanced apps. in forms. :) A Joke! The WTF texts won't show the advanced apps. any more than the ITF texts. They are definitely there though. If anyone chooses to ignore that, then go for it. The ones that do study these things will continue. Once it is experienced, the practicioner will understand the truth. It is up to them whether or not they want to put in the work at that point.


The ITF draws on Shotokan teachings as much if not more than the WTF. Funakoshi acknowledged grappling in his version of kata. Choi studied UNDER Funakoshi. Funakoshi shared techniques with Kano (Judo) and vice versa. Judo has GRAPPLING KATA. Funakoshi mentions, in his autobiography, that his teachers on Okinawa would have him and his fellow students WRESTLE, after KATA practice, on a REGULAR BASIS. The curriculum was set up in a way to foster kata interpretation when dealing with grappling. It is not any stretch what I have been discussing with Fissure on this thread. If anyone feels uncomfortable about there being something more than they were taught in their forms, I am not forcing them to enquire. For anyone that does, I will give as clear an explanation as my typing finger can. I am not partisan.


Bagatha,
In reference to your "Kung Fu forms" remark, the Chinese Fukien province gave gave birth to the Kung Fu systems that are the MOTHER of your forms. The lessons Funakoshi received were in LARGE part FROM CHINA. Funakoshi TAUGHT Choi. Are you catching the connection here? You are practicing "Tang Soo Do" that was renamed TKD. "China Hand Way". Kara Te Do means "China Hand Way". This is another reason I reference "cult" like behavior. Not looking around you and believing only what you are told is "cult" like, no? Arnisador and some others helped me find clear text reference dealing with the exporting of Kung Fu to Japan AND Korea. It became Karate, TSD AND TKD. Is the ITF a cult? No! Some people just like to pretend. :) If you looked harder at your forms and I mean REALLY looked, YOU WOULD BE fluent enough to exchange with some of the CMA people. Your joke has more truth to it than you realize! Yours is a very good analogy, accident or not!


Fissure,
Anymore good chop, chop insites from your vantage point are appreciated. This is fun. Thanks! I will try to be more "succinct". :)

white belt

[jfarnsworth]

Good post.:asian:

[TkdWarrior]

hmm Mr. White Belt intresting post again...
i dunno if ITF is a cult or not(i m ITF guy) n i dont care about it, the only thing i care about is learning, the day my instructor or me hav his/our minds closed i'll stop learning till then "happy learning"

in reference to KF->Karate->TSD->TKD
wat i'll say that when i met Kungfu ppl(mostly on forums like dragonslist) i found out that they don't learn different than mine(their forms r different), i hav bad memory in remembering names of stance/forms etc but when i see them i can do most of them(not forms)
i hav always wondered why TKD Tuls r like this?i asked my teacher n he gave me some answers which i think doesn't answered my question at that time, later i realised wat he meant
i tried looking into forms, but was not advanced enough to understand what the hell is happening there... still i practiced forms(i m not fan of forms tho).
Now after sometime in TKD n learning more about Kungfu/Wusu/Internal arts i don't think looking for advance techniques matters much, because all this hav taught me to go beyond techniques/forms etc...do i think i hav gone beyond? i guess may be not but i m still working... does that give me a good excuses to not look into techniques in a form? No i guess, but sometimes i wonder wat was up in the founder's(funakoshi/choi/others) mind when he created forms, was he putting some hidden forms so that it took ages to Master An Art?
or he was looking for something which could work in Real fight?
or he just loved moving here n there kickin n punchin?
or was he thinking about figthing one oppnt or more?
Who Knows... at least i don't...
well i guess it provide some mind excercise to ur mind while u look into techniques in forms(No Offence to anyone)but i guess they r not so Advance as u say n a dedicated Practitioner wouldn't hav problems in figuring those out...
i dunno if all this makes me a Cult Member then probably i m...
-TkdWarrior-

[fissure]

I was going to answer something on the previous page but I'll do it now. Personally what's being lessened is the mentality of people. In this day and age "usually" people want something for nothing with as little effort as possible. The forms give you examples and ideas of motion or self defense if you will. My feeling is you need a self-defense curriculum as well as forms. I've been around for a while and have seen people that just love to fight and don't practice the forms. Fighting is good don't get me wrong. Different forms of fighting are necessary to grow as a martial artist.
All good points! these 2 interest me

The forms give you examples and ideas of motion or self defense if you will


Different forms of fighting are necessary to grow as a martial artist
I hope I didn't give the impression that all one had to do was practice forms endlessly in order to reach ones goals!
My intent was to say (much as you did) that the "blue print" for application are in an arts forms.These are then practiced individualy with various partners, along with purpose specific "sparring" and indeed sport sparring to some degree.

[fissure]

i wonder wat was up in the founder's(funakoshi/choi/others) mind when he created forms, was he putting some hidden forms so that it took ages to Master An Art?
This debate has been going on in MA forever! No one has and absolute answer to this.

I think white belt is pulling your leg!

[TkdWarrior]

I think white belt is pulling your leg!
well i dont mind get my leg pulled :D

This debate has been going on in MA forever! No one has and absolute answer to this.
yea i agree with this. i think now it's open to everyone the way he/she interpretts it... to find His Way.
-TkdWarrior-

[TkdWarrior]

to add into my post i think founders hav done it deliberately(sp)
if we all knew same techinques/forms/ways then No fun left ;)
n thanx to Internet we can kick each other's as$es proving we got Da Method :D
it's so darn fun :p;)
-TkdWarrior-

[white belt]

Yes, I am pulling TKD Warrior's leg. It is a move I got from the form Kum Gaeng. Don't tell anybody! :)

Chop, chop!!!
white belt

[jfarnsworth]

Originally posted by fissure
I hope I didn't give the impression that all one had to do was practice forms endlessly in order to reach ones goals!
My intent was to say (much as you did) that the "blue print" for application are in an arts forms.These are then practiced individualy with various partners, along with purpose specific "sparring" and indeed sport sparring to some degree.


Fissure,
We're on the same page. The "blue print" are indeed the forms. It's up to the individual to seek, learn, then understand the knowledge they contain. :D Disect the forms then build them back up in place of self-defense tech. where they can be rationally put into play. Quality instructors are what's needed for that.

I did not pick up on you saying only 1 form of fighting is good. I knew what you were saying there as well. As I mentioned before by having 3 different TKD instructors in my tenure. My main instructor (which is the person who promoted me) did a mix blend of TKD and aikido. The next instructor that was an assitant instructor there taught a blend of JJ and TKD. The last gentleman in which I spoke of earlier came in for 5 months in '91 to gear up and train for the olympic trials. After that he went out onto his own with his training in seclusion to train like a mad man. :) During this time period as well I went into the kickboxing ring also. I wouldn't be the person I am today without the help of all of these men. My instructor broke away from the ITF he didn't like where it was heading and became an independent. To me I could care less. Then the class started to take a turn for the worse, into business. This is when I turned to kenpo.

[fissure]

Disect the forms then build them back up in place of self-defense tech. where they can be rationally put into play. Quality instructors are what's needed for that.
That last sentance sums it up.

Of all the arts I have trained in to one degree or another, Aikido is the only one that I completely and totally sucked at! I could never get the whole "flowing through the entire motion" theory. I always wanted to put a little "pop" in at the end of a movement, the way you would with a kick or punch.

It's interesting to note that if you stay in MA long enough it's almost impossible not to get some exposure to other arts. One of the best examples was the farther of one of the kids we taught 7 or 8 yrs ago. He was a collegiate wrestler- 6 ft. 280lbs. he taught me alot about grappling, a good education from an unexpected source!:eek:

[Bagatha]

Fissure, this concept about being a fighter is the end all be all about MA, I dont FULLY agree with but it is mostly true I think. This is a new area for me for I never used to think this way at all. In fact I have been in several arguments with ITF folk about this new discovery of mine aswell. It is something I came to on my own once I ventured outside of the "cult" and into other "cults". When you discover that this vast amount of knowledge you have amounts to nothing once again. Everything that you know and can do doesnt mean squat in another art. What does mean something then? What is the fundamental goal in every art, something that can be brought with you and used? The ability to fight. The ultimate goal in all this training is the hope that you will be able to defend yourself when called opon. No matter what Martial art you go to, this is the goal. Patterns originally were invented to aid in this goal, a form of training without a partner. Patterns have changed many many times until someone decided. Hey lets go with these ones. And then another person came along and said, hey this makes sense and this doesnt, and modified them again and again. The best explination I have heard as to the value of patterns is this: Patterns are the practice of "perfect" technique. If you are in a real fight your technique will be degraded because of the flow and dynamics but if you can execute technique with 50% power/correctness/ etc. of a perfect pattern then you should be ok.

I accepted this explination for many years until I TRULEY realized HOW the technique in sparring and the technique in patterns is totally different. They arent really interchangeable. Does that mean patterns are useless? No. They train you to punch hard without resistance, i.e. how to stop your techniques before you hyperextend something in case you miss in a real fight. They teach you a huge amount of balance, and once this is learned then pivoting in sparring is a peice of cake in comparison. The repetative movements (for some people) is a challenge, so the simple act of memorization can sharpen the mind. The ability to perform patterns free from distraction is an awsome form of meditation IMO. The amount of overall coordination achieved is incompareble to sparring. Learning patterns makes learning everything else easier. BUT, patterns are simply a sequence of moves which can be easily replaced by similar floor work that has no name. I think you still need patterns or a suppliment to patterns though, you cant just have sparring and thats it.

[Bagatha]

White Belt,

FANTASTIC! Now Im an expert of every art! I love it thanks. Hey maybe that means Since Choi decided NOT to put grappling apps in his patterns.....they dont work?

[white belt]

Originally posted by Bagatha
White Belt,

FANTASTIC! Now Im an expert of every art! I love it thanks. Hey maybe that means Since Choi decided NOT to put grappling apps in his patterns.....they dont work?

Expert in every art? Do you know a "Judo Kid" by any chance? :) Try learning more about your forms. That will definately facilitate your branching out at least. Worked for me AND THOUSANDS OF OTHERS.

Fissure answered your query of the forms not working with his FIRST post. Generally, why are techniques taught, at first, in a manner that will get you hurt? Because that is a BEGINNERS way of understanding them. The legacy series helps BEGINNERS. It also helps Instructors help teach BEGINNERS. It is a good reference tool for this. If you are insinuating that GM Choi did not have advanced apps. for each BEGINNERS movement, then either 1) He was not sharing, at all, INTENTIONALLY. 2) He was NOT TAUGHT PROPERLY by his teacher Funakoshi and could not figure out what others have. 3) He knew and shared alright. You and MANY others were just left out of the mix to figure things out on your own or not at all.

I vote for number 3. I wager that GM Choi was much more intelligent than you will give him credit for. This is being said by a WTF TKD man. Me.

Instead of dodging the technicalities that Fissure and I openly discuss, take the movement from his description in his first post, involving knife hands, and give us all a lesson. Will you make an excuse and not deliver? :) I am betting that you have nothing more than the BEGINNERS VERSION to share. Knowledge is power.

The Borg thing is a cool concept. A mix of human and machine. They tend to not have time for things outside their prime objective. Consume and assimilate. Petty human concepts are lost on them. Very unemotional. Good luck! :)

Remember, answer the application description/function posted by Fissure. I am always open to "useful" learning.

Your buddy,
white belt

[white belt]

Originally posted by fissure
White Belt,

Man, you love to describe things I already know!:D ;)

I think that I'm fairly sure you are busting balls with the ITF cult angle - but not completly! Maybe someone had a bed exp. at some point?Hmmmm....:)

Bed experience? Isn't that inappropriate talk for a forum like this? :)

I did have involvement with a MA cult myself about 20 years ago. Very interesting. I started a post about CMQ in the "Horror Stories" area. Some others who frequent this forum have knowledge of them. Wacky bunch. They had a version of DKI's NTKO apparently. If any questions about that, post at "Can't touch this". It is below the thread "What do you find most annoying about that white belt guy?". I openly share. It's just who I am.

white belt

"I AM BORED".
"RESISTANCE IS FUTILE!".
:)

[Bagatha]

Originally posted by white belt


Bagatha,
In reference to your "Kung Fu forms" remark, the Chinese Fukien province gave gave birth to the Kung Fu systems that are the MOTHER of your forms. The lessons Funakoshi received were in LARGE part FROM CHINA. Funakoshi TAUGHT Choi. Are you catching the connection here? You are practicing "Tang Soo Do" that was renamed TKD. "China Hand Way". Kara Te Do means "China Hand Way". This is another reason I reference "cult" like behavior. Not looking around you and believing only what you are told is "cult" like, no? Arnisador and some others helped me find clear text reference dealing with the exporting of Kung Fu to Japan AND Korea. It became Karate, TSD AND TKD. Is the ITF a cult? No! Some people just like to pretend. :) If you looked harder at your forms and I mean REALLY looked, YOU WOULD BE fluent enough to exchange with some of the CMA people. Your joke has more truth to it than you realize! Yours is a very good analogy, accident or not!



Your the one that implied I knew all about other arts through this very "interesting" logic. I was just having fun with it.

Beyond that you have already deduced that whatever I say is below your incredibly secret society knowledge so I dont have time to humor you, sorry. Maybe one day when your finished being a teacher and ready to be a student we can discuss this again my friend. Until then, my ISP is being disconnected so adios.

[white belt]

Bagatha,

I HATE IT WHEN THAT HAPPENS! Good luck on having your ISP removed. I had a friend who had one removed and he walks with a limp now! But, he can now accurately predict the weather! :)

Honestly, Good Luck in your adventures!

white belt

[fissure]

It has been my exp. that people are either receptive to the possibility of alternate apps. or they are so horrified that they would like to burn you at the stake! That's why I don't talk about these things unless someone says they are interested, it's their call.
Yet again I astound even myself with my ability to predict the future!

"I AM BORED".

"RESISTANCE IS FUTILE!".
I like your sense of humor White Belt.:D


What is the fundamental goal in every art, something that can be brought with you and used? The ability to fight.
I would preface my response by saying that I'm a fairly big strong guy whose been around the block and loves to mix it up. ( trying to say that I'm not a little wimp who can't cut the mustard!)
But I would say that many trainees who have studied for 20 or 30 yrs often express the "fundamental goal in every art" as a journey of self discovery, an ability to find oneself through a martial ART.
But like I've said before:
In much the same way, if all someone is interested in, is competition then I don't have a problem with that either. Someone's reason for what they chose to do, or not do, is their own.
As long as each uindividual gets what they want out of their training, everything is right with the world. I have found over the years, however, that what I wanted has changed a few times!
Hope you get back on line soon, I've enjoyed the disscsions.:asian:

[ThuNder_FoOt]

Originally posted by Bagatha
Haha, hes just mad because someone thinks differently. Its bound to happen after awhile. Maybe Ill go hang out in the Kung Fu forum for awhile and tell them how to do their patterns. LOL.

Woah, I sense hostility!!! haha, just kidding. I like this quote, its short and direct.

[white belt]

Fissure,

................I hear..... crickets. Good thread while it lasted! Anymore pearls??

Miss Bagatha,

Good luck with your surgery if you are out there! Getting that ISP thing off your eyebrow shouldn't hurt too much!

Last call? :):):)
white belt

[fissure]

White belt what are your thoughts on forms with continually repeated movement. I have seen some possible applications of these (posted briefly on triple knife hand blocks earlier), the 3 palm heal + 3 knife hand motions in Keumgang come to mind. Again I've seen/heard/invisioned possible apps., but also heard it said that this repetition is simply a way of saying "take note of this, it's important". Since the most often repeated movements are the ones with the most diverse apps. (knife hand, high block, down block,ect.) I think I' m kinda leaning toward the later theory right now.
Those aren't crickets - just my empty head trying to figure out a reason why so many movements in Jitae are in super slow motion! ( tension against a hold? another "pay attention" type thing? Not sure right now!)

[fissure]

I can't remember your answer - do you practice Bal Sek, Lo Hi, and Sip Soo? Lots of interesting possibilties there!
I can't figure out the "hands at hip, double step forward" in Lo Hi!

p.s. Lo Hi - Ro Hi , not quite the same though!

[white belt]

Fissure,

I practice the PalGaes. Explaining my interpretation for apps. for your forms before black belt is possible, but it would be tedious. I reference the "Won-Hyo" thread for that statement. I do believe there is hard and soft Qi Gong sprinkled into a lot of the forms. The tensioning movements would be focused on by me for that. Gripping, and small joint rotation under tension, is a much overlooked strengthening exercise by a lot of students. My hand and forearm mass is much harder, though no bigger, from concentrating on forms. My partners now wince when I lightly "tap" them during different types of practice.

The form Keum Gang is still not fully disected by me. The apps. for the triple moves are elusive when put in series if compared to singular moves. I agree. The palm heel, in my apps., is a neck crank/break from a grappling tie up. The palm heel is also used to severe the collar bone nearest the throat junction, in my apps. The stepping back single knife is a Carotid strike with an elbow break across your ribcage by the chambering hand. If you have something to add, maybe we can make a clearer picture for each other.

I found the "Boston Crab" in this form! Have you derived it? Keum Gang is mostly joint breaks, locks and throws from my vantage point. Share your thoughts.

Thanks,
white belt

[mtabone]

What do you mean, not quite the same though?

[white belt]

Though I don't have those forms, MTabone's question is intriguing. That is a good point!

white belt

[white belt]

Also, holding both hands at the hips while advancing, if that is a front stance advancement, I would suspect the chambered hands are retaining lapels or wrists for knee bashing to the head, solar plexus and/or testicles. Those steps just need a more pronounced raising of the knee when moving forward. Just a thought. I don't have those forms. Sound interesting though!

Another thought, the tensioned movements/ exercises you mentioned before, are there more forms taught after that that deal more and more with trapping/gripping limbs? If so, the sequencing of the forms, as they are taught, could be prepratory for the needed extremity strength, in later forms, developed by the Isometric/ Hard Qi Gong movements. Feedback?

white belt

[mtabone]

Rho Hi is a form I have prevesly learned. Though Some places call it Lho Hi. Same From, different name. Just wondering about fissure's quote of : p.s. Lo Hi - Ro Hi , not quite the same though!


PS- Really not even a different name, justs a different pronunciation. Ever heard a Asian person try and say "R's"? not so easy. Not a hard thing to induce that Rho could easily be heard as Lo. After all all, there is the Wrong way, and the Wong way.

Michael Tabone

[fissure]

White belt, the poomse I mentioned are "left over" from the pre-Palgwae/Taeguek days, not colored belt forms.
The steps in Lo Hi are done as short little advances not formal stances.
For Keumgang's 3 palm heels - After the bouble middle block ( breaking a bouble grap)control the right wrist of the attacker strike with a palm heel to the colar bone.Grab the shirt where you just hit,pull them in for a palm heel to the chin. Followed by a sweeping motion as described for Koreyo, extend lead front stance leg behind attacker leg, pulling back into final position, sweeping his leg forward, using the palm to move their upper body in the opposite direction.

Another thought, the tensioned movements/ exercises you mentioned before, are there more forms taught after that that deal more and more with trapping/gripping limbs?
The form I was refering to was Jitae - WTF Dan level form.There is ALOT in these higher poomse that I'm stuggling with.Although this one has more tension than any other, mostly with "basic" tech.

[fissure]

What do you mean, not quite the same though?
I , and my "instructor" (see a privious post in regaurd to the qoutes!) were taught this form many yrs. ago by a Korean GM.
The only other time I saw this form was in a dojo of a friend (possibly Goju Ryu? Somekind of ryu anyway!) and it was a little different than the way I was taught.

mtabone, you know the point where you perform the knife hand block (frontstance) and double punches at 45 degree angle to both sides. I think there was a down block to one side during the this that I wasn't shone. The way I know it the "upper cut + overhand " punches are also done in these directions in addition to the front. Other small differences, low knife hand block to finish? I do middle knife. Obviously the same form - just a little different (from what I know at least).
It's very possible that this GM or even his teacher may have had a slightly faulty memory of this form.

[fissure]

Do you feel that forms are A:a laid out sequence of applications designed to be thought of in their entirety, with all movement following the specific order the occur in? Or do you look at them as B: many "sets" of motion pasted together for ease of practice, that may or may not relate to one another?
At this time I am leaning toward the later. For instance if you use my app. for the 3 palm heels in Kuemgang ( you may think they suck, and have no intention of ever trying it!!), the final sweep would leave your opponent on the floor. If the knife hand movements are looked at in the light of option A, then you would have to assume a second attacker has leapt over his fallen comrade after you dropped him! Or he has been creeping up behind you, but (out of the kindness of his heart) waited until you kicked the crap out of his buddy before making his move. At which point you throw 3 moves at him, taking him out - without ever turning to face him!
I think that the "sets" of tech. are what is important in forms. If you look at your throwing tech from Koreyo, White Belt, when you practice this set of tech. against an opponent would it matter if the movement before or after it, were the ones that do so in the poomse? I personally don't think so. This line of thought leads me to think that one part of a form doesn't have to relate to any of the others (although it may!) , or them to it. A such, some of the confusion, as in "O.K., I threw this guy on the ground here - but now how am I going to use my knife hand, spear finger combo in that direction?" - is lessened. I know - long post! Hope I got my thoughts across, your ideas?

[white belt]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by fissure
[B]White belt, the poomse I mentioned are "left over" from the pre-Palgwae/Taeguek days, not colored belt forms.
The steps in Lo Hi are done as short little advances not formal stances.
For Keumgang's 3 palm heels - After the bouble middle block ( breaking a bouble grap)control the right wrist of the attacker strike with a palm heel to the colar bone.Grab the shirt where you just hit,pull them in for a palm heel to the chin.

Fissure,

The app. I use for Kuemgang's first move is actually a double knuckle strike to the 11th rib area to collapse the diaphragm. This is done to counter a grappling attack/grab up high (clinch) which allows clearance for the double torso strike. Liver 13 and Spleen 16 are right there for the picking. The proximity of the hands at that point allow a short distance to the belt or testicles for a hard chambering/ripping motion with the left hand as it chambers. The right palm heel hits Spleen 16, at the bottom rib, as that left hand (palm full of....well you know) yanks back. At this point the opponents hands instinctively are reacting to the damage down low and drop near the area where your hands are attacking. At that point, the arm grip and pull begins for strike two. The grip is at too close of a range, at that point, to grab the wrist for proper pulling and securing. Try gripping just above the elbow and DIG the fingertips in at around Heart 2 and Heart 3 near or on the Ulnar nerve (really sucks, try it on yourself). Because the opponents hips go backward on palm heel one, the collar bone area and head are now dropped down to you as targets. Pull back HARD while squeezing that elbow grip, etc. At that point, the damage is being done up high with a broken collar bone,etc. and the body's natural reaction takes over by throwing the upper body back and presenting the hips forward. When this is done, a wrist grip or another ulnar grip can be secured while the chin area presents the final palms opportunity. If you can coax a partner to put their back against a wall and use a double over arm clinch, the targeting can be done even without moving forward or shifting the feet in place. Again, this is just my take and it may not feel as comfortable as your apps. which to me would work better on a shorter person. Curious, I am 5' 11". How tall are you and is this affecting our mind's eye? As you can tell, I use the reaction to pain factor (spasm) to set up or open my next shot, kind of like pool.

white belt

[white belt]

Originally posted by fissure
Do you feel that forms are A:a laid out sequence of applications designed to be thought of in their entirety, with all movement following the specific order the occur in? Or do you look at them as B: many "sets" of motion pasted together for ease of practice, that may or may not relate to one another?
At this time I am leaning toward the later. For instance if you use my app. for the 3 palm heels in Kuemgang ( you may think they suck, and have no intention of ever trying it!!), the final sweep would leave your opponent on the floor. If the knife hand movements are looked at in the light of option A, then you would have to assume a second attacker has leapt over his fallen comrade after you dropped him! Or he has been creeping up behind you, but (out of the kindness of his heart) waited until you kicked the crap out of his buddy before making his move. At which point you throw 3 moves at him, taking him out - without ever turning to face him!
I think that the "sets" of tech. are what is important in forms. If you look at your throwing tech from Koreyo, White Belt, when you practice this set of tech. against an opponent would it matter if the movement before or after it, were the ones that do so in the poomse? I personally don't think so. This line of thought leads me to think that one part of a form doesn't have to relate to any of the others (although it may!) , or them to it. A such, some of the confusion, as in "O.K., I threw this guy on the ground here - but now how am I going to use my knife hand, spear finger combo in that direction?" - is lessened. I know - long post! Hope I got my thoughts across, your ideas?

Fissure,

If each move in one form were performed on the same one person. Example: 26 moves. And let's say that all of the advanced apps. were known and being used. After about move 4 or 5 the authorities would want to press new charges for ABUSING A CORPSE. I definately believe they are NOT randomly put together, though. At the same time if you view a new fresh attack at any point in a form (say, pretend a form starts at position no. 5, etc.), and press on about 4 moves or so, you start to realize something.

white belt

[fissure]

I just realized I wrote "bouble" instead of "double" twice in the same post. Curious!
I'm also 6ft. tall (215lbs.)
You must use a much more forward rather than outward motion for the first movement of Kuemgamg, to give any kind of power to a striking interpretation. You basically use the palm strikes as, well, palm strikes.

Again, this is just my take and it may not feel as comfortable as your apps. which to me would work better on a shorter person.
Interesting. Not that I'm trying to sway you or anyone else - but I don't understand why you say this.You apply a double (got it right this time!) knuckle strike, followed by 3 palm strikes. I use a spreading motion to intercept a 2 handed grab, followed by 2 palm strikes and thrusting trip.Not really much difference, I can't invision a height issue....

[fissure]

I didn't mean the the moves would be against one person

At the same time if you view a new fresh attack at any point in a form (say, pretend a form starts at position no. 5, etc.), and press on about 4 moves or so, you start to realize something.
This is what I meant by "set" of moves.
Randomly put together - maybe not.What I'm saying is that these sets could be interchanged with other sets without altering their "own" applications.
For example the poomse Taebaek - you can easily find sets of movements from Pinan 2,3 and 4. It's often the position of Japanese Karateka that TKD forms do not hold the same knowledge as their kata, because they are recent creations.My arguement is that since TKD forms are, in part, comprised of these same sets of movement linked in different fashions - how could they not contain advanced apps.?

[white belt]

Fissure,

I envision a taller person in tie up position, arms high, (clinch) with me. In looking at the Ouchi Gari type inner reaping sweep you use, I would be really reaching with my forward stepping leg if I tried to get behind their lead leg, especially at your almost arms length version to boot. In my Judo experiences a shorter person is more vulnerable to backward sweeps/throws like you mention, while a taller person tends to crouch and lean in making a forward throw like Tai Otoshi easier. A taller person can reach inside the legs of their shorter opponent due to reach. That would be ideal for your app. A taller man with an overgrip, in clinch with me, would set up the mid to lower body targets I mention. Maybe we are revealing something to ourselves here about who our individual minds are targeting? Freudian Kata? Karl Jung (Hyung)? :)

white belt

[white belt]

Originally posted by fissure
I didn't mean the the moves would be against one person

This is what I meant by "set" of moves.
Randomly put together - maybe not.What I'm saying is that these sets could be interchanged with other sets without altering their "own" applications.
For example the poomse Taebaek - you can easily find sets of movements from Pinan 2,3 and 4. It's often the position of Japanese Karateka that TKD forms do not hold the same knowledge as their kata, because they are recent creations.My arguement is that since TKD forms are, in part, comprised of these same sets of movement linked in different fashions - how could they not contain advanced apps.?

Fissure,

My point is that the TKD forms seem to allow at least 3-4 strong sequenced movements to make sure the job is done. Then a fresh face can jump in and have his turn. If a form was structured such that the first move was a throw to the ground and the second a high punch, something would be fishy. Any authentic form I have seen has the "tear them up until the job is done" sequencing. And this is true regardless of where the form is begun (move 5, etc.). A crap thrown together form won't allow you to do this. It poorly trains an individual to move once on an opponent and then expect him to play dead like a bad Kung Fu movie. This is what I could not seem to get through to a certain females head here recently. A good form is not a random sequence of moves. Go back if you are interested and read about the "natural stance pauses" in Won-Hyo that I picked up on. GM Choi was pointing out something there when that form was developed. I don't know ITF forms, but I respect that man's intelligence.

Some Japanese style practicioners tend to think that you can only get to China through Okinawa. Korea has a few passes through those mountains. Nobody has a patent on correct physics and body motion. Look at the American boxers. Is USA boxing a poor version of the Marquis of Queensbury tradition? America took the genuine article and improved on it in many ways. We have had more world champions than any other country. The Japanese, Okinawans and Chinese have correct knowledge. The Koreans were never shown a patent. They also made as many contributions. Maybe the Marquis of Queensbury's lineage is keeping a secret punch to themselves. :) The jig is up on that "mixed up Korean kata" stuff. They know it to.

white belt

[fissure]

I think you're envisioning an arms length "boxing match". Think of your attacker starting close to you (remember he's attempting a grab) then using the elliptical foot motion of the front stance to get inside whatever stance they may be in. Strikes, as you know, don't have to landed anywhere near full extension. Also, after redirecting the grab you have intern grabbed his wrist whilst pulling him into the palm attacking his collar bone. Again grabbing there shirt, pulling into a chin palm attack using the same "inside" step with the front stance. At this point there is no distance to cover for the sweep and thrust, you are already in under their center.
An app. is an app., only if it's applicable to you! :D It's interesting how some of our apps. are practically identical, while others go in somewhat different directions.
I was looking through some old copies I made from TKD manuals yrs. ago.It's been a long time since I did the Palgwae forms, no walking stances in there huh? A usefull addition to the Taegueks or just another way to remove TKD from Karate!
Palgwae 4 looks like the colored belt version of Taebaek, now that I see it before me.This leads me back to my brainstorming on forms. The same set of moves apear in both forms, but are linked by different "conecting" movements.Yet the applications of these sets remains the same.I gotta stop thinking about this stuff! :)

[white belt]

Fissure,

Not saying your apps. won't work. I can do them w/o any trouble. Just trying to bring up the body types factor when intepreting. It does make for rough fits if target alterations are not considered when fighting Hulk Hogan as opposed to Gary Coleman. That's all!

Good night,
white belt

[fissure]

It does make for rough fits if target alterations are not considered when fighting Hulk Hogan as opposed to Gary Coleman. That's all!
No doubt!
Did you notice that this thread has degenerated into our own personall discussion group?!:D

[fissure]

What I'm trying to get at with the whole A,B line of thought, is that I don't always approach possible application of movements, or groups of movements, with the parts of the form in front or after it in mind. That is to say, if I feal something works for 3 or 4 movements that are obviously part of the same "string," I don't always concern myself with whether it will gel with an app. for the next string of tech.
Time for me to hit the hay!

[white belt]

Fissure,

Degenerated? Hey, thanks?! I get the feeling we are being watched. Must be my NTKO, Qi Gong, Ma Huang mix induced paranoia. :)

Yes, the "sets" viewpoint you have is a feeling I get too. But, like I have been saying, it depends on your psyche and circumstance. Sometimes what a "set" is for you or anybody else depends on where you start yours. Hope I'm making sense with that statement. Take the last Palm Heel in Kuemgang and tie it to the first and second step back knife hands. That could be a set to me immediately and not seen that way at first to someone else. What I said in an earlier post about form quality and being able to jump in at any point and having a "set". I have a high respect for Karate and Kung Fu forms. The body dynamics in forms are what define a style to me. What Bagatha said about the seperation of Forms, Sparring and Self Defense is very "arrested" in a developmental way. The 3 blend, at each individuals own nexus eventually, or else something is awry! The "permanent seperation" means that a person could just do creative dance, kickboxing and then Defendo or some other military based "reality" training and get the same benefits. It would be good for that individual, but it would not be as synergistic in developing a person as would the present TKD experience I am having. I guess it is hard to agree with that until it is actually felt.

white belt

[white belt]

Fissure,

The "arms length boxing match" statement. If you have a tall person, with slack in his arms, your pulling at the wrist will not generate the same amount of force as compared to a shorter limbed person. The shorter limbed person will have the slack pulled out of his arm and his body mass/center of gravity will be affected more, by the time your chambering pull is near it's home position. This sets up more collision force for the palm heel. to the intended targets. That is why on a taller person I advocate the common Ulnar area grappling grip for a taller person. Much like the collar/sleeve gripping in Judo. There is little to no slack left in the pulling motion at the arm and the collision/center of gravity shift is still implemented making the most of distance/physics. In your version of gripping at the wrist, at the get go, a shorter person would be damaged the most, due to travel distance and acceleration of inertia. This would be abruptly powerful due to your pulling the slack out of his arm before impact. A taller person would still have slack in his arm at the point of impact. The potential damage theoretically would be less than the shorter persons. Feedback?

white belt

[fissure]

I understand your tall guy point now. Good explanation!
I have to admit that I've never done any involved app. training with anyone over 6' 3".At this height differential (3") there hasn't been any problem. I can foresee the pitfall you detailed - maybe with a 6-7" reach/height variation.

Sometimes what a "set" is for you or anybody else depends on where you start yours.
Your making perfect sence with this. I wouldn't have a problem working on the last palm and first knife in Keumgang (since it has becime our poomse of reference), or 2 palms and 2 knife motions.

[jfarnsworth]

Originally posted by white belt

Degenerated? Hey, thanks?! I get the feeling we are being watched. Must be my NTKO, Qi Gong, Ma Huang mix induced paranoia. :)



:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Good lord that was funny.

[jfarnsworth]

Originally posted by white belt
I guess it is hard to agree with that until it is actually felt.


There are many things that can't be explained and learned over an open forum such as this. Many times the only way to learn is to feel.:) Unfortunately for us we all have different views/opinions/instructors and learning abilities. Everyone here already knows this and I'll say again I've had a good time reading and hanging out with 'ya all. I'm just glad you guys haven't kicked me out.

"Let time be your measurement to skill and experience"

[white belt]

Originally posted by jfarnsworth
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Good lord that was funny.

Funny? What funny? You haven't been talking to THEM, have you?

I have a "got ma huang?" bumper sticker instead of a "got milk?" bumper sticker. I negotiate red lights and leave the engine running when fueling up! I have a fax hooked up to my cigarette lighter. In fact I'm driving right now as I type!

Pedestriaaannnnssss!!!!

white belt

[jfarnsworth]

Well Cassidy is trying to put up the good fight down there. It is extremely hard to read all of those posts on that thread. Maybe take one less does of your ma hung since it it ephedra in disguise.
Then you won't need to worry about the pedestrians.:rofl: Oh, and then lay off of the coffee that brings the caffeine into play as well. You know I'm just trying to help a friend out in need.:D

[RCastillo]

Originally posted by jfarnsworth
There are many things that can't be explained and learned over an open forum such as this. Many times the only way to learn is to feel.:) Unfortunately for us we all have different views/opinions/instructors and learning abilities. Everyone here already knows this and I'll say again I've had a good time reading and hanging out with 'ya all. I'm just glad you guys haven't kicked me out.

"Let time be your measurement to skill and experience"

Kicked out?, No, But I'm watching......................waiting...........;)

[white belt]

Originally posted by RCastillo
Kicked out?, No, But I'm watching......................waiting...........;)

JFarnsworth,

white belt here. Don't worry about RCastillo, he's bluffing! Look at all the smart ass humor I have posted. No problem here and....(click!)

[jfarnsworth]

Originally posted by RCastillo
Kicked out?, No, But I'm watching......................waiting...........;)

Castillo; What are you doing in here???? ........ Oh wait. yeah. Um,
your still my senior. Rats.:p

[RCastillo]

Originally posted by jfarnsworth
Castillo; What are you doing in here???? ........ Oh wait. yeah. Um,
your still my senior. Rats.:p

I know what you REALLY wanted to say. You wanted to call me a SENIOR CITIZEN!:mad:

[jfarnsworth]

Originally posted by RCastillo
... You wanted to call me a SENIOR CITIZEN!:mad:

Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha!!:p :p :rofl: I didn't say that.