Moral question

[MountainSage]

Some time last year our dojangs first black belt go tossed in jail for beat a person up to the point he went to the hospital. The BB was drunk and a friend held the guy while the BB beat him. This beat was in the "victims" home, which the BB and his friend kick the door in and his young children were present. Granted the victim was no saint, acutally he's a real scum. He had been brought to trial for numerous rape attempts never conviced. For this the BB go three years probation and assorted fine and alcohol treatment class. The instructor and master removed him to red belt with one stripe (1st Gup) for one year. I got a big problem with this punishment. I don't believe that it is harsh enough. What is your opinion?

Mountain Sage

[fringe_dweller]

Wow... that's a really tough question. I'd hate to make an uninformed opinion which is really the only sort I can offer without knowing any details. Say for example that the BB had a friend who had been a victim of this guy - I know there is (in a perfect world) no provocation that should allow you to do that to a person but unfortunately this isn't a perfect world.

I guess this just highlights how imnportant it is that your Instructor can provide you with more than just the physical training of a martial art (please don't take that as a slant on your instructor) - and how important it is that you be willing to apply it to your life.

Respectfully,

[J-kid]

Really depends to be honest. I need more info on each person.

[KennethKu]

Is the instructor supposed to teach him about the law now?

What he did is called home invasion. In some states, you would be in deep poo-poo.

You don't get to decide who you want to beat up. You can use force to stop a crime in progress. You cannot settle score after the fact, so to speak.

He got off easy.

Don't get me wrong. I am all for law and order. But you have do it right.

[MountainSage]

Fringe Dweller,
The only other details I know for a fact is that a mutual female friend of the BB and his friend claimed to have been raped. The women had a history of blant lies to get revenge and the two knew this to be true. The BB is also the teachers pet adn can do no wrong in the teacher's eyes.

Mountain Sage

[TLH3rdDan]

hummm this is interesting... he must have been wrestling with the problem to begin with for him to have had to be drunk in order to go to the guys house kick his door in and beat the hell out of him... as far as your instructor simply demoting him to 1st gup... not sure if i agree with that either but its not my call to make nor yours... im sure your instructor had his reasons perhaps the humiliation he felt the student went thru by being arrested and charged and convicted and given probation was punishment enough... but im not him and cant make that call or intrepritation of his actions... if you feel strongly about it simply ask him... the worst he can say is its none of your bussiness and not respond...

[fringe_dweller]

Originally posted by KennethKu
Is the instructor supposed to teach him about the law now?



Sorry, maybe I didn't explain myself well. All I meant is that the concepts of self control etc which would have led up to him going to break and enter into a house are those which he obviously needs to brush up on. Anyone who claims to be a martial artist and is a thug is kidding themselves IMHO. Excuse me while I go put on my flame suit.

Respectfully,

[GouRonin]

Originally posted by MountainSage
Some time last year our dojangs first black belt go tossed in jail for beat a person up to the point he went to the hospital. The BB was drunk and a friend held the guy while the BB beat him. This beat was in the "victims" home, which the BB and his friend kick the door in and his young children were present. Granted the victim was no saint, acutally he's a real scum. He had been brought to trial for numerous rape attempts never conviced. For this the BB go three years probation and assorted fine and alcohol treatment class. The instructor and master removed him to red belt with one stripe (1st Gup) for one year. I got a big problem with this punishment. I don't believe that it is harsh enough. What is your opinion?
Mountain Sage

I was going to ask why he had to wait until the guy was drunk and then have his friend hold him but then I realized he's a black belt in TKD. So he probably was at even odds. Hell, he was even stupid enough to get caught.

The fact that his instructor took away rank is laughable. Really, come on. I can see it now. "Ah young foolish black belt. You must now give back the knowledge I have given you until you can again posses it wisely. Please to open up your skull and pour it out. I have been training you to fight all these years. I cannot believe you have been foolish enough to use it."

Does the teacher come over and decide what colour scheme his house must be and other life decisions too?

[MountainSage]

Fringe dweller
No flames from me. I've learned that this forum has an large diverse group, so you must take all statements with a grain of salt. I guess I wouldn't havve such an question if a month prior our master had not quoted from the Spiderman movie,"With great power come great responsibility". I also agree with the poster that stated that judgement is not my responsiblity, but how am I to follow this person as a leader or look at them as a senior. The act was just plan stupid from the start and I'm not the forgiving and forget type. I tend to hold myself and others to a high standard, probably higher than I should expect.

Mountain Sage

[Cthulhu]

If this incident actually happened, and if this were a student of mine, he would be stripped of all rank and ejected from the school.

No matter what the previous situation was, his black belt does not make him judge, jury, and executioner. Furthermore, he should have had the discipline not to get drunk and basically beat someone down (with help!).

Cthulhu

[GouRonin]

Yeah, 'cause God forbid that any teacher's students have somekind of indepenence and make choices and decisions on their own without consulting their teacher for how they should think and feel.
:rolleyes:

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by GouRonin
I was going to ask why he had to wait until the guy was drunk and then have his friend hold him but then I realized he's a black belt in TKD. So he probably was at even odds. Hell, he was even stupid enough to get caught.

The fact that his instructor took away rank is laughable. Really, come on. I can see it now. "Ah young foolish black belt. You must now give back the knowledge I have given you until you can again posses it wisely. Please to open up your skull and pour it out. I have been training you to fight all these years. I cannot believe you have been foolish enough to use it."

Does the teacher come over and decide what colour scheme his house must be and other life decisions too?
:rolleyes:

[bart]

Hey,

I think it's a little silly to strip rank. That implies that this guy's rank wasn't based on skill and achievement, but rather favor with the teacher.

We don't know much of the situation other than heresay, but it did show a lack of control and a lack of respect for the law. In some places that type of behavior is completely unacceptable, but in others it's par for the course especially if the guy that got beat up had it coming. But we don't know the situation.

If the guy was one of mine I'd have to listen to his story and see whether or not he was worth putting anymore time into. If he and the punishment fits the crime, then I'd keep teaching him, if he was totally in the wrong and was not going to change, then I'd ask him to leave.

We had a guy in our school who was convicted of robbery. He was a good kid that was very confused. He got in with a bad crowd and got in trouble. When he got out of the can he had turned over a new leaf. Our Sifu gave him a chance again. But limited his training time and the stuff that he was taught until he'd proven himself again.

The MA's are not mainstream. It's true it is getting moreso, but it isn't mainstream like soccer or baseball. It may be getting there, but it isn't yet. Mostly MA people are normal types, but off mainstream things attract fringe types, and criminals are fringe types. So they pop up in your classes, and mostly you don't know. I've trained with some very weird people once I got to know them. I've even trained with criminals. Wing Chun was known as the "gangster fist" in Hong Kong for the number of Triad people that had some knowledge of it.

If you ask me though, the most tacky thing this guy did was beat down on this guy with somebody else holding the guy down. He must be confident in his skills if he has his partner come along and restrain his targets.

[Cthulhu]

Stripping of rank obviously does nothing about the knowledge the student accumulated over the years. What it does is indicate that the person is no longer recognized as a black belt in the organization or by the school.

Making indepenent choices and yadda yadda yadda...obviously, if this fella wants to get drunk and beat somebody who is being held down, independent decision-making isn't his strongest skill.

Cthulhu
advocate of legalized retroactive birth control

[fist of fury]

I'm going to have to say no he's an adult and is allowed to make his own decisions outside of the school without asking his teacher. If however he did something in that class room that's a different story.

[Aegis]

Teaching someone to fight is something that shouldn't be done lightly. If the person being taught shows that they aren't capable of making reasonable decisions about the use of their abilities then the instructor should more or less disown them as a student. Abuse of what has been taught by the instructor would in my view be deserving of at least a demotion to below black belt.

[yilisifu]

If he'd been one of my students, he would have been immediately and permanently expelled.

[lvwhitebir]

Originally posted by Cthulhu
If this incident actually happened, and if this were a student of mine, he would be stripped of all rank and ejected from the school.

No matter what the previous situation was, his black belt does not make him judge, jury, and executioner. Furthermore, he should have had the discipline not to get drunk and basically beat someone down (with help!).

Cthulhu

Here, here.

The guy not only shamed himself, but the school and the teacher. The school's name will be up for grabs in the media and many new or current students will flee because of it.

Stripping the rank is a sign from the teacher that he doesn't respect the student's actions. It has nothing to do with the knowledge this person has gained. It's probably the only thing the teacher could do. I do not dictate a person's life outside the school, but I choose who I teach to and I wouldn't continue to teach to a person who committed this type of crime.

No matter the circumstances, I think the teacher was way too lenient in this situation.

WhiteBirch

[cali_tkdbruin]

Originally posted by GouRonin
I was going to ask why he had to wait until the guy was drunk and then have his friend hold him but then I realized he's a black belt in TKD. So he probably was at even odds. Hell, he was even stupid enough to get caught.
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Hey, hey ,hey! Settle down there sportsfans! I'm sure each style of the martial arts has its share of dumbass knuckleheads. Even the Russian arts must have its share of feeble boneheads. :eek:

However, we don't all put ourselves in this type of predicament. Most of us Taekwondoists have enough respect for ourselves and our art to not place ourselves in this situation.

Why do you have to take a shot at TKD, even if you are just being facetious? :confused:
And not all of us come from Mc Dojos/Mc Dojangs...:asian:

[Cliarlaoch]

I can't say that I know for certain what I myself would do about a student who had done what the individual in question had done, since I myself am not a sifu/sensei/etc. I can only say that, were I to teach someone, I would endeavour to teach them the ideas of loyalty, respect for others and myself, and moral justification in all things that have been passed down to me from my instructors. A student who violates those principles would be anathema to the very ideals that the martial arts hold to me, and to do nothing would strike me as violating those principles myself.

There's an old saying in the martial arts, much akin to the Spidey quotation posted earlier (a personal favourite of my own, as well!)... and that is that, on the way to becoming a black belt, you learn all the techniques necessary to kill a person, but in actually becoming a black belt, you learn the neccessity of NEVER using those techniques to kill a person. There is always a better way. You fight to defend yourself, your family and loved ones, etc, not to hurt another person unless you have no other choice. I would probably agree with Yilisifu, in being prepared to expel a student who took such actions. Hard choice, but nobody ever said the moral road was gonna be easy.

As for the TKD crack, there's no need for that, folks. I practice TKD, and I like to think that I practice the ART of Tae Kwon Do, not the SPORT of TKD. My instructors always emphasized the artistry of the style, and taught us techniques that were designed to be practical (as in any art, there are exceptions, as certain kicks are more practical then others). Use of one's legs in combat is useful due to the power, speed, and efficiency of using the largest muscles in the human body, and proper TKD training emphasizes the use of the legs in fighting an opponent. This makes it a very valid martial art form. I may joke about some of the goofier stuff that gets taught in the style, and that's valid... every style has its quirks, and I'm sure the comments about TKD practicioners needing a buddy to hold the opponent so we can beat 'em up was not meant to be mean-spirited, but it was in bad taste. Considering the subject matter of the thread, and considering that a large number of people here are TKD practitioners who happen to love our art as much as anybody else here, I for one would appreciate it if people could refrain from making such jokes again on this thread.

--Cliarlaoch

[cali_tkdbruin]

Well said... :)

[GouRonin]

Originally posted by fist of fury
I'm going to have to say no he's an adult and is allowed to make his own decisions outside of the school without asking his teacher. If however he did something in that class room that's a different story.

I agree.

If TKD wants to be made less fun of, then they ought to clean their act up. However I know for the sake of moderators I will cease the jokes...for now.

[Abbax8]

The reduction in rank, weather one rank or 10, is up to the instructor who presumably is better able to judge than we who don't know as much. One thing that has not been pointed out though. Breaking into a house is STUPID as it can get you SHOT AND KILLED!!!! Not exactly representative of a skillful MA.

Peace
Dennis

[dearnis.com]

Bottom line, the behavior described constitutes multiple felonies. I will NOT have a felon representing me. End of story; expelled as a student; rank/teaching credentials revoked.

[TKDman]

Taking his rank away? Wow that means nothing. How about officially canceling his black belt certification and making sure he never gets it back unless he moves to canada?

[GouRonin]

Originally posted by TKDman
Taking his rank away? Wow that means nothing. How about officially canceling his black belt certification and making sure he never gets it back unless he moves to canada?

What kinda crack is that? Just because he moves here he can have it back? That's typical of the kind of @ssclown who studies TKD. He can't have his black belt in the USA but if he moves to Canada then of course he can?

You started off your post good kid but then you moved far into the "J@ck@ss" zone.
:cuss:

[Cthulhu]

Mod. note

Everyone,

Please keep the discussion polite and friendly.

Cthulhu
-MT Admin.-

[tshadowchaser]

Takeing someones rank away means verry little in the long run. They have already been trained by someone in a certian system and school, thusly anyone who knows that person or who knows that they where trained at the school wii always associate them with the school. If they end up in court the schools name and the instructors will be dragged through the mud.
As instructors we must constantly be on guard for warning signs of an overagressive personality that is just to wild and uncontroled and uncontrolable

[white belt]

Mountain Sage,

I am sorry the quality of clarity at your refuge from stress has become muddied. A lot of people/students don't understand how nauseating, and far reaching, an incident like this can be. Every student at that school, Instructors included, now will have lost some face due to this "man's" poor actions. With power comes responsibility. If power is attained and not treated responsibly then the wielder himself will become CONSUMED. Eventualy those who would defend him will then to be consumed by their poor judgement. This flagrant violation of common sense was premeditated. There are no excuses. Your Instructor will suffer for keeping this "man" at his/your school.

About a year and a half ago, I was faced with a difficult task at the school I own. A high schooler who reached Black Belt through years of study at our school, injured a fellow student who is also a Black Belt. For some time before I was given the courtesy of taking over the school from my GM, I noticed this young man's attitude turning. I discussed it in passing with my GM and he said watch him closely and give him time to mature a little. I thought of this boy as a nephew to me as he was growing up and attending the school, but I started having a BAD feeling about his attitude. He started acting like he was invincible in attitude and that he had "been to the mountaintop" so to speak. I sparred him a little once in awhile to politely remind him that a badass attitude was no match for a cool head and strategy. I NEVER mistreated him. He had good techniques, but refused to listen to me coaching him how to use them effectively. Beautiful and Powerful kicks and punches, but couldn't hit the broad side of a barn, when sparring, thru sheer stubborness. One day I conducted a multiple sparring session and paired him with two 40-50 somethings in succession. Both men are top flight (Black Belt) good guys who would give the shirts off their backs to a fellow student. The youngster could not score on the first older man and got miffed when I told him to relax and alter his technique. The second older partner was also frustrating him in the next match. I turned my back to check on another match next to them and out of the corner of my eye saw this young man cut loose with 2 HARD KICKS TO THE OLDER MANS ARMS USING HIS SHINS. I jumped over to grab him, but the 3rd kick had already landed before I could stop him. The older man had a puzzled look on his face as to why this guy went off. Instead of a moderate contact match aimed at trunk and head targets with feet and hands this kid got frustrated and tried to damage this man's arms with his SHINS at FULL velocity. I made him go off to the back of the class after scolding him and tended to the other student while still teaching the rest of the class. The older man was pretty sore, but toughed it out and finished class. The other students were ashamed at what they saw and heard. After a couple of days I got phone call from the victim stating that things took a turn for the worse. He went to the doctor and found out he had a BROKEN ARM. The youngster had yet to come back. When he did I said nothing until the rest of the students had all lined up to bow in. I informed them all of the arm break and stripped this youngster of his belt in front of the rest of the school. I put a white belt on him and put him in the back with the rule of no speaking to anyone. When I spoke to his parents after class, they expressed disappointment in me and my decision. They did not care about the older mans situation. The youngster was me, me, me. I then kicked him out right then and there for life. It has been over a year and he still has not found a school that he likes or likes him. I know the other competitors/owners unbeknownst to him. I never spoke of the incident, but mentioned "attitude problems and to watch him if he trains with others".

In retrospect, I know I made the right decision. No one in my school wanted to be around him after that incident. I also was concerned that if he lost it again, one of the better Black Belts might accidently hurt HIM. Also, my viewpoint business wise was this goof was an insurance liability and he could get me and his parents sued, insurance or not. The older man could have been a jerk and sued me. He came back after the cast was off and continues to this day, luckily. He understood that I could not predict an outcome like he had experienced. I was VERY lucky. Now, word has gotten around and my school is very well known for not accepting BS or losers PERIOD! My concern for your situation, Mountainsage is that the drunken incidents mishandling will cause sensible people to connect you and the others, Instructors included, in your school with that type of idiocy. Your Instructor has in a sense turned his back on everyone, but this miscreant you mention. Not good. Not sending the right message to the miscreant, the other students and the community in which you live and socialize. Your Instructor could have BOLSTERED the school's name and the reputation of everyone in it by doing the right thing and not showing favortism. I am very sorry on your behalf. If I may suggest, think about shopping around for a plan B and C school. Think about training under a man whose decisions you can respect.

A last note. The young man I kicked out was my GM's son's BEST FRIEND. My GM was out of town and had no knowledge of what happened until he came back. As you can see, I HAD A HARD DECISION. I was met with strong approval and new found trust in my GM's eyes. I had no clue what to expect, but I knew I had to try and protect his name and the NAME OF ALL THE STUDENTS. I apologize if this is not what you wanted to hear. Just being honest.

Best of luck,
white belt

[MountainSage]

Whitebelt,
Obviously your moniker doesn't do you justice. Maybe we should exchange on-line names. You have clearly defined my feelings about the situation, now if I could understand my problem with the punishment. I come from a right and wrong childhood, where you were punished for wrong at a severe level, or at least I believed it was servere at the time, but it taught me the there was trouble if I crossed the line. I do believe that the BB understanding to gravity of the situation and is working to rectify the situation, but it doesn't make me feel right about the whole situation. I guess that the respect level for my teacher and the BB have gone way down. I have no other option for schools, because I live in a small town. My county has only 8,000 people and I believe 16,000 cows, it's real rural. There have been other situation that I have felt that my instructors judgement was in error and potential dangerous, but there isn't enough room to address these issues.

Mountain Sage

[white belt]

Mountain Sage,

A bit of a pickle, I see. A monopoly of sorts by your Instructor. You have a passion for your studies both physical and mental. You have a familiar face in town. By paying for and attending classes you feel as though you are supporting something that defeats your sense of right and wrong, but at the same time provides a feeling of hope and contentment. Whereas my pickle was a quick sword through the ribs, yours is the prolonged torture of a thousand tiny razors. One each time you think of "you know what". Here is a psychological Judo technique possibly of use. Humor me a little. When the right situation arises, with PROPER audience, smile and compliment your Instuctor on how well he handled it all. Yes, I mean it! Explain to him how "Most Instructors would have turned the wayward student away for good" and "How wise it is to keep him around so that he may closer monitor him in case his behavior were to worsen and more deeply affect the populace at large. With him as an Instructor and guide, he now may have a chance of avoiding future bad judgement". After all, he is a dangerous BLACK BELT trained personally by him! If the Instructor had not these intentions originally, maybe a seed can be planted with your assumed impressed attitude. A way of "saving face" and a solid explanation to confused students and outsiders who don't understand the true depth of "the student/teacher relationship". If your Instructor is fast on his feet, he will remark on how observant you are and compliment you. He might be confused a bit himself over the "incident" and maybe a student can teach him something without him knowing it. Or at least admitting it. Either way it goes, pretend that is what happened, or you had assumed happened, to everyone involved. Be Mr. Smiley to the miscreant and focus on your needs. By setting an example, sometimes the lower ranks become "The Joneses". The higher ranks surely can't allow a "lower ranking student" to show them up with superior social skills, attitude and tenacity! Heaven forbid!

If you can't exchange your situation, work from the inside to alter the present one? One man can be the whole difference if the cards are close to his chest.

If you are or are not familiar with a philosopher named Machiavelli, getting more familiar with his works on strategy never hurt anyone. :)

Hope I haven't wasted your time,
white belt

p.s.
I use the name white belt to describe my personal agenda. That is to be "A student of all, a follower of none". Sometimes I don't allow certain people to see I am learning from them. Could give them a big head. Maybe your Instructor and I have something in common? :)

[Shinzu]

i would remove him from my school and take rank also. i would not want someone of that character to represent me, my students, or my organization.

[white belt]

Originally posted by GouRonin
What kinda crack is that? Just because he moves here he can have it back? That's typical of the kind of @ssclown who studies TKD. He can't have his black belt in the USA but if he moves to Canada then of course he can?

You started off your post good kid but then you moved far into the "J@ck@ss" zone.
:cuss:

Gou,

I am from the U.S. and study foreign culture. What exactly is an @ssclown? Is this a performer common to the Canadian type of Circus? If so, describe their escapades. Do they too pile out of small cars, in groups, like their U.S. cousins? If so, being an @ssclown must be hard in that cold weather you guys have up there. Do @ssclowns frighten small children? Do Canadian children dream of running away to the circus to be with the @ssclowns? When they sit down does it smudge their makeup? Do @ssclowns perform at Canadian Bar Mitzvahs and funerals? Canada is a land of such mystery. Possibly a troupe of Canadian @ssclowns could visit Mr. Sages DoJang and make everyone happy again?

:)
Your neighbor down South,
white belt

[Bob Hubbard]

In the US, we call them 'Congressmen'. :D

[white belt]

Canadian children are frightened by Congressmen? Canada IS a land of mystery! It's a small world after all.

:)
white belt

[MountainSage]

white belt, you have once more shown me your a person of skill and brains, thank you. growing up there were two thing that were not done, doing anything to tarnish the family name and doing anything to "lose face". This from parents that never were involved in any martial art. I guess the BB violated both of these deeply ingrained beliefs and that bothers me. I try to set a good example for the lower ranks in my school and hope to one day teach with that same high example. Kaith Rustaz, your hitting a litle close to home. I ran for the House of Reps this last election cycle. Got my @ss kick like a five year old in a UFC match, but I did get 4% of the vote while spending no money.

Mountain Sage

[Bob Hubbard]

MountainSage, not at all. I'd like to see more folks like you get in there and restore the honor those postitions once held, rather than the stink of SI$ speaking over the true needs of the people.
:asian:

[white belt]

Mountain Sage,

My ideas are a reflection of my past defeats and what I would do differently now. I've come up with a standard at the DoJang that helps people kind of sort things out for themselves.

1) An idiot doesn't learn from his mistakes.

2) A smart man learns from his mistakes.

3) A GENIOUS learns from OTHER peoples mistakes.

I like to think that my past mistakes have inspired some genious. Inspiring a LOT of genious isn't necessarily a good thing. Your errant Black Belt associate is doing his part to ensure YOUR level of genious :) and I hope he aspires for lesson two at least.

Let's say a guy walks out into traffic and gets pulverized by a truck. The other pedestrians see this and say "I'm not ever doing that!". The man stuck on the grill of that truck is a "Great Teacher" of sorts. Inspiring genious! He is dead, but he got the lesson across to ALL who witnessed. Look both ways. A 100% success! I personally would never want the title "Great Teacher". They can sometimes be idiots! :) Dead idiots. Sharing a couple of ideas back and forth with good people is good enough for me.

Your words to me are very kind and I hope you reach a new level of satisfaction with all of your endeavors. Keep us posted.

white belt

[MountainSage]

White belt, I have fallen into all three of your catagories more than once in my life. Luck for me the idiot ones weren't fatal and that wasn't from lack of effort. I did some reallllyyyy dumb things as a kid. Kaith, I appreciate the support, now move to eastern Oregon so you can vote for me:D .

Mountain Sage

[jfarnsworth]

Originally posted by Shinzu
i would remove him from my school and take rank also. i would not want someone of that character to represent me, my students, or my organization.


Perfect!! That's exactly how it should be. No head instructor should have to put up with anything like that. His BB is a reflection of him his studio, other students, martial arts, and their practicing art. Revoke the rank immediately and sever the ties.

[H@pkid0ist]

If this were EXACTLY as you say, personally I would have stripped him of his title, and kicked him out of the school, ensuring to keep the other local MA instructors informed of this persons incident. A thing like this can destroy a teacher and a school. A student like that is not only a danger to the school, and the MAts community, but the regular comunity as well. As I said, this is only if this is EXACTLY how it happened.

[GouRonin]

Originally posted by white belt
Gou,
I am from the U.S. and study foreign culture. What exactly is an @ssclown? Is this a performer common to the Canadian type of Circus? If so, describe their escapades. Do they too pile out of small cars, in groups, like their U.S. cousins?

No. They tend to congregate in a place they call a "Dojang" and pretend to fight while kissing the owner's ass so they can get one of the many belts they offer and pay him money while he pretends to teach them how to defend themselves.


Originally posted by white belt
Do @ssclowns frighten small children?

Not usually. Assclowns tend to lock their doors and not let small children in because the kids will pull hair or otherwise hurt them and thereby ruin the fantasy that they are learning to defend themselves.


Originally posted by white belt
Possibly a troupe of Canadian @ssclowns could visit Mr. Sages DoJang and make everyone happy again?

That would be the neighbourly thing to do. Birds of a feather should flock together and most people wish our assclowns would flock off.

[Shinzu]

glad you agree jason. in my eyes this is the most honorable thing an instuctor can do in a situation like this.

[cali_tkdbruin]

Originally posted by GouRonin
No. They tend to congregate in a place they call a "Dojang" and pretend to fight while kissing the owner's ass so they can get one of the many belts they offer and pay him money while he pretends to teach them how to defend themselves.
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.
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You know, after rips like this, I liked this place better when Master GouRonin was on his sabbatical... :shrug:

[GouRonin]

You're not going to take away my rank are you?
:shrug:

[white belt]

Originally posted by GouRonin
No. They tend to congregate in a place they call a "Dojang" and pretend to fight while kissing the owner's ass so they can get one of the many belts they offer and pay him money while he pretends to teach them how to defend themselves.



Not usually. Assclowns tend to lock their doors and not let small children in because the kids will pull hair or otherwise hurt them and thereby ruin the fantasy that they are learning to defend themselves.



That would be the neighbourly thing to do. Birds of a feather should flock together and most people wish our assclowns would flock off.

Gou,

Do you ingest Ephedra or Ma Huang by any chance? :) You seem a little "tense". Turn off the hockey game for awhile and go to the "Health Tips" section of this forum and take the "test". It involves a handgun and a Ferret. It will cleanse all the bad chi from your system and frighten away the @ssclowns! Does the test need a grading curve due to the Canadian weather I wonder? Don't drop your Bacon!

Your new U.S. buddy,
white belt

p.s.
There are no "fees" for this test I assure you. But you might want to have a "belt" when you are finished!

[GouRonin]

I'd love to chat with you further and assist you on your journey into learning the ways to pay your 11 year old grandmaster respect (hint, I bet he likes lego) but alas...


So I am forced to have to sit and listen to you make fun of countries other than your own. I guess on MartialTalk unless you're from the USA you can't argue with someone bashing your country.

[white belt]

Gou,

If you think I have been baiting you, you are right. Just trying to get things back on track with a little humor. I will be the first to admit that there are McDojangs around. One in my town is causing people to assume that all schools are like that and I am getting sick of it. I have people who got "burned" by that school coming in to take some "proper instruction" from me and some just can't handle getting hit. They were supposedly taught "authentic TKD". It's sad. I'm assuming from your posts you have seen some of the bad. We ran a supposed excontender (boxing) out of a MMA club around here, some years back. He had an Amateur record and doctored a Pro record. They are everywhere.

I have been laughing all weekend about your term @ssclown. :):):) Pretty frickin' funny! I'm sure Mountain Sage saw the creative humor there and forgot about the troubles at his facility for awhile.

I've been to Canada and you have much to be proud of in my opinion.

Great weekend to you,
white belt

[Bob Hubbard]

Warning had nothing to do with nationalities, but the art bashing. If we had a problem with the assclown comment, it would have been mentioned.

Regarding shots taken at Canada, or any other country....anyone is more than welcome to defend nationalistic pride when necessary, as long as its done in a professional manner.

I will second the comment that Canada is a wonderful country...I spend a lot of time there at various conventions and renfaires. Ontario keeps its roads up, which is more than I can say for NewYork. :)

With that said, lets please get back to the main topic of this thread.

Thank you.

[MountainSage]

Kaith,
What is a renfaires? That a term I've never heard before or is it a slang term for renissance fair(sp).

Mountain Sage

[Bob Hubbard]

Originally posted by MountainSage
Kaith,
What is a renfaires? That a term I've never heard before or is it a slang term for renissance fair(sp).

Mountain Sage

Yup. I'm usually at the one in Sterling NY every year. I try to get to others (theres 2-3 in Ontario I believe) when I can.

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz
I will second the comment that Canada is a wonderful country...

Toronto and Vancouver are two of my favorite cities. I'm going to visit Montreal this summer for the second time.

[arnisador]

Good-natured joking back-and-forth about nationalities and countries is acceptable. Please keep it good-natured. If you're not sure, don't post it! As always, we strive for a polite and professional environment. Report uspected violations to the moderation team.

Slamming an entire martial art is particularly problematic on a martial arts web board that tries to cover the entire martial arts world. We want a welcoming environment for the whole martial arts community.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-

[bart]

I will be the first to admit that there are McDojangs around. One in my town is causing people to assume that all schools are like that and I am getting sick of it.

That's a problem everywhere on the continent. There was one place in my hometown that guaranteed a TKD black belt for $1000 in less than a year. It's dangerous to make someone feel like they can fight but not give them the skills to actually defend themselves. Some people were really injured by the effects of their false confidence.

Also, these places tend to teach other arts as a side gig, like eskrima or bjj. By having these arts dragged through the mud with those mcdojo type schools, the arts tend to be taken less seriously. Even worse, the mcdojo types start handing out unauthorized black belts in those arts or make up their own stuff from what they pick up from the actual instructors and create their own watered down mcdojo system. Usually now a novice has to wade through a period of mcdojo before they find something worthwhile and authentic. In the meantime they risk injury and they get bilked for their money.

As for the Canada bashing, my Dad's family is from Newfoundland. Whenever I tell that to my Canadian friends they go off on a string of "stupid newfie" jokes. So I'm not feeling much sympathy for the home of the Mackenzie brothers. :)

The first time I heard @ssclown was in the movie Office Space. It's a must see for any one time corporate "wage slaves" like myself.

[white belt]

Bart,

Thanks for verifying that things are definitely messed up all over! :) The "title" in the U.K. I believe is "Bum Jester". My "Homeys" use the term "Trunk Funnys" (ref: "Baby gots Junk in the Trunk", "Bust a cap in dat boy's trunk!", etc.). But(t), how does this all relate to Mr. Sages plight? I tried to offer him personal tactic and recourse that maybe he had not considered. I am just one guy with limited experience. According to Mr. Sage, he is in a monopolized situation which really turns up the heat for him. I really respect his attitude in trying to handle things w/o a knee jerk reaction. What other CONSTRUCTIVE things can be offered to this man that we have missed thus far?

white belt

[MountainSage]

White belt,
Please don't give me more credit than I deserve. There was 2 months+ of knee jerk reactions in the privacy of my home, just ask my wife, after a while she'd just roll her eyes at me. The best way, In my opinion, to deal with the problem with TKD is to tend to business in your own dojang and town. As a indiviudal, a person could use alot of energy trying to cure all the worlds ills which could be used better improve their own skills and dojang. Over time the Mcdojang will go away. The cream always rises to the top.

Mountain Sage

[white belt]

Mountain Sage,

I understand your comments and will spectate a bit. :) Nice to see a man with conviction such as yourself. My "sense of humor" is why I took up self defense. I don't run as fast as I used to! To follow your advice, I will go make life interesting for my fellow students now.

Beware of the "Bum Jesters"! :)

Respectfully,
white belt

[Jill666]

Originally posted by GouRonin
You're not going to take away my rank are you?
:shrug:

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Two comments- first, having read all the responses I'd have to say there seems to be much more to the story than is known. I don't know about "stripping of rank"- the man in question earned it at the time- but if you don't want to teach him, don't. Remove him from the family tree? Is that what stripping entails? I honestly don't know...

Secondly, I hadn't heard @ssclown in this context, we call them "dojo dinks".

I'd truly have to say, though, that if you have knowlege for sure that someone is dangerous, don't teach him. Have him take his act elsewhere. Otherwise, I don't see doing anything other- A) what for? Why waste time & breath on it. B) it's a personal and criminal matter. If you had info the police should have, give it up, then refuse to have anything more to do with the guy. I'm not seeing the need to get further into it out of personal indignation and professional pride.

I'm not trying to be dismissive, believe me. If you feel the courts and head instructors didn't do enough, well that's life as I know it... if you personally don't think he should be taught in your school, don't teach him in your school. If you don't want to be around him and your hands are tied, well it's easy to say, but leave if he won't be gone. Life's too short. You've wasted enough life already.

That's my 2 cents.

[Johnathan Napalm]

Could it be they promoted him to Blackbelt too casually in the first place?