No Strength!!!! (or "Stop Sucking!!!")

[Kichigai-no-Okami]

I'm having a hard time of it !!! During the last year or so with my training, I have been using body strength in my taijutsu to make up for suck-ass body dynamic and movement/kukan. As a nidan in BBT/N, i would like to at least look like I'm not trying to embarass myself when called upon to demo. Also, having B/GJJ in my backgroung dosen't sem to help the fact that lately I've been moving like a pregnant yak. On crack.
My Shidoshi(s) tell me to "keep training" and "ride it out", but (with due love/respect to them), I'm starting to get real antsy, as warriors often operate in less-than-ideal situations (i.e. when injured, when tired, inclimate weather, when being pursued, having to take out an attacker, etc.).
As rank means almost nothing to me, I am not ashamed to say that there are times when I feel as though I don't know what the hell I'm doing, and that I need help. Any (serious) advise would be appreciated.

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Spend more time with each technique.

[Brian R. VanCise]

Slow down, relax and train. Just do not worry about it and try to be fluid, smooth and relaxed in your movement. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon6.gif

[Steel Tiger]

It looks to me like you need to go back about a year and figure out what changed for you to start doing things differently.

[Carol]

Can you spend more time with your instructor and dedicate your schedule to more time for structured practice?

[dumblucky]

K

For what its worth, I empathize. You sound as frustrated as I do when I’m pressing. I don’t know if taking some time off would help or not but there’s nothing wrong with a mental health day or two.

Otherwise, when I’ve run into a bad patch, I’ve always found it helpful to ramp up my solo training and getting back to basics; stretch, practicing moving through low kamae, sanshin, punching/kicking.

I’ve also found that it’s better for me to hit reasonable goals. If I say I’m going to do solo training five times a week and only hit two, the danger is that it’ll put me in a deeper mental hole. Lately, I’ve been lucky in that there is a gym across from my work and I can usually grab time during lunch or right after work. (Notionally, if I aim for 4-5 days and actually get to 3-4, I feel I’m doing all right. If I miss a day, I don’t try to make it up later. I just let it go). I have better luck doing a bit everyday but some people I train with prefer 2 long sessions a week.

Also, and this is my experience only, when I’m pressing I’m usually better off going through things slowly. When stretching, I make sure I hold the stretches for a slow count of thirty. When moving through kamae, it's a minimum count of 50. (Just pick three at a time) For sanshin, a ten count at the extreme ends of the movement and an eight count in the transition. When punching or kicking, I just work on one strike at a time (I’m sure you know we have more than the lunge punch). Throw 100 right, 100 left and repeat. When your form starts to break down stop of take a rest.

Your body will make specific adjustments to this type of training so if you fall into the habit of consistent solo training, you’ll have to change things up periodically. However, for me, slow training is usually pretty good at clearing out the cobwebs. Usually (after a couple weeks), I figure out that I’m too tense in the upper body and rediscover the feeling of moving from the point an inch or two under the belly button. I suspect leg strength has a lot to do with it.

Some other points (sorry if this is long winded, I’m almost done).

• If you do try this, work up to things. There have been posters in other boards that talk about throwing 1000 punches a day. While I agree with the concept, it takes time to build up to it. The first time I actually tried something like this, I did eight sanshin on a slow count before I had to stop to avoid the embarrassment of falling down.
• This type of training shouldn’t take away from dojo training. If you find yourself missing dojo training for solo training, re-evaluate. Solo training should make dojo training better/easier/more accessible. It shouldn’t replace it.
• Doing things slowly, can expose a lot of flaws in your movement. Make sure you are running questions past your teacher so you don't get into bad habits. For me, this was particularly true of punching.
• On the plus side, it can give you a good platform for asking specific, technical questions of your instructor.
• On a related note, pay attention to things you feel need work. I think part of training is identifying your own weak points and then working on them.

Finally, if you are still cross training, things change some. If you are still concentrating on the Bujinkan but keen on cross traing, I’d recommend doing at least 15- 20 min of sanshin or kamae work after every cross training session to keep the Bujinkan movements fresh in your system.

I hope that helps. And if anybody has any solo training ideas, I'd like to hear them.

-al

[jks9199]

In any style, we all have times when it seems like the principles and dynamics we've worked on are just "clicking", and we can do no wrong.

Unfortunately... in any style, we also hit times when NOTHING we do is right. It's normal, and it's incredibly frustrating. Your teachers have given you the best advice they can; shut up, keep training, and keep the ideal in mind. Eventually, you'll get through this phase.

Personally, I've often found that the struggling period amounts to my body/mind integrating some new element that, after awhile, leads to a big leap in skill or ability. So there is light at the end of the tunnel! (But, dagnabbit, it's a dark tunnel sometimes!)

[Kichigai-no-Okami]

Spend more time with each technique.

I hear you on this one, as my technique can always benefit from some additional to detail. But when your NOT used to spending too much time one technique (per Soke's teaching style) , and later down the road you see this same technique, but presented with/as henka, the whole thing becomes one huge discombobulated mess, as the root technique hasen't even been firlmly grasped yet. Fustrating !!!!!

[Kichigai-no-Okami]

Can you spend more time with your instructor and dedicate your schedule to more time for structured practice?

Hey Carol.
I think that if i hope to see improvement, i guess that i just have to "Ninja Up" and seek that extra training time/attention. It's funny because i was reading Ben's Farwelle thread, and what he had to say about training with Nagato-Sensei. And to a minute extent, I can relate. I dont know WHY "my foot is supposed to be there", but Shidoshi would know better than me. So time needs to be spent training and reflecting as well. Frustrating!!!!

[Kichigai-no-Okami]

Slow down, relax and train. Just do not worry about it and try to be fluid, smooth and relaxed in your movement. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon6.gif
Bri-guy !

That is one of the BIGGEST Problem that I have. Slowing down and relaxing. I have a habit of, and been accused of " playing hot" (running hot chi during training). And, much to my chagrine, this has left me with more than a few slightly injured uke in my wake. an when not "playing hot", the "muscle" comes out in my Taijutsu, and Shidoshi is constantly reminding me to "slow down" and "take it easy". I don't do this to be an a**hole, its just that it seems that i'm trying to "force the technique to work to suit my "body style" (I say in all honesty and humility that i am one of the most, if not THE most "unique" person in Bujinkan, and therefor in Ninja-dome. If you saw me, you'd understand. Im a first of sorts. LOL!!!!!!!!), and that if i don't grasp this NOW, that I'll "lose" it, even though i know that i will see it again later down the road. I don't know, Brian. It just seems to build on each session, and I have a hard time "letting go". Frusrating!!!!!!

[Kichigai-no-Okami]

It looks to me like you need to go back about a year and figure out what changed for you to start doing things differently.

Hey Tigg.

Believe me, I'm STILL trying to figure this one out, as earlier in my training, I used to almost NEVER struggle with this. But since shodan, this crap has shown up, and I dont know what to do about it. Like looking for a single drop of rain in the ocean.

[Kichigai-no-Okami]

In any style, we all have times when it seems like the principles and dynamics we've worked on are just "clicking", and we can do no wrong.

Unfortunately... in any style, we also hit times when NOTHING we do is right. It's normal, and it's incredibly frustrating. Your teachers have given you the best advice they can; shut up, keep training, and keep the ideal in mind. Eventually, you'll get through this phase.

Personally, I've often found that the struggling period amounts to my body/mind integrating some new element that, after awhile, leads to a big leap in skill or ability. So there is light at the end of the tunnel! (But, dagnabbit, it's a dark tunnel sometimes!)


That's X-ACTLY what Shidoshi #1 said to me. And yes, that tunnel is a dark one, indead. It's just that i hope this IS a "normal" thing, and that in time, things will start to "click", It's just that I'm trying not to freak out at the present time, and to pick apart everything that i'm doning to get to the "meat" of it. But there are times when i feel a little discouragment at the progress that i'm making in doing this. Frusrating!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Kichigai-no-Okami]

K

For what its worth, I empathize. You sound as frustrated as I do when I’m pressing. I don’t know if taking some time off would help or not but there’s nothing wrong with a mental health day or two.

Otherwise, when I’ve run into a bad patch, I’ve always found it helpful to ramp up my solo training and getting back to basics; stretch, practicing moving through low kamae, sanshin, punching/kicking.

I’ve also found that it’s better for me to hit reasonable goals. If I say I’m going to do solo training five times a week and only hit two, the danger is that it’ll put me in a deeper mental hole. Lately, I’ve been lucky in that there is a gym across from my work and I can usually grab time during lunch or right after work. (Notionally, if I aim for 4-5 days and actually get to 3-4, I feel I’m doing all right. If I miss a day, I don’t try to make it up later. I just let it go). I have better luck doing a bit everyday but some people I train with prefer 2 long sessions a week.

Also, and this is my experience only, when I’m pressing I’m usually better off going through things slowly. When stretching, I make sure I hold the stretches for a slow count of thirty. When moving through kamae, it's a minimum count of 50. (Just pick three at a time) For sanshin, a ten count at the extreme ends of the movement and an eight count in the transition. When punching or kicking, I just work on one strike at a time (I’m sure you know we have more than the lunge punch). Throw 100 right, 100 left and repeat. When your form starts to break down stop of take a rest.

Your body will make specific adjustments to this type of training so if you fall into the habit of consistent solo training, you’ll have to change things up periodically. However, for me, slow training is usually pretty good at clearing out the cobwebs. Usually (after a couple weeks), I figure out that I’m too tense in the upper body and rediscover the feeling of moving from the point an inch or two under the belly button. I suspect leg strength has a lot to do with it.

Some other points (sorry if this is long winded, I’m almost done).

• If you do try this, work up to things. There have been posters in other boards that talk about throwing 1000 punches a day. While I agree with the concept, it takes time to build up to it. The first time I actually tried something like this, I did eight sanshin on a slow count before I had to stop to avoid the embarrassment of falling down.
• This type of training shouldn’t take away from dojo training. If you find yourself missing dojo training for solo training, re-evaluate. Solo training should make dojo training better/easier/more accessible. It shouldn’t replace it.
• Doing things slowly, can expose a lot of flaws in your movement. Make sure you are running questions past your teacher so you don't get into bad habits. For me, this was particularly true of punching.
• On the plus side, it can give you a good platform for asking specific, technical questions of your instructor.
• On a related note, pay attention to things you feel need work. I think part of training is identifying your own weak points and then working on them.

Finally, if you are still cross training, things change some. If you are still concentrating on the Bujinkan but keen on cross traing, I’d recommend doing at least 15- 20 min of sanshin or kamae work after every cross training session to keep the Bujinkan movements fresh in your system.

I hope that helps. And if anybody has any solo training ideas, I'd like to hear them.

-al


Yo, Al.

I know in Soke's book "Wisdom...." he talks on not neglecting solo training . I think that in supplementing my training that i need to take this a little more seriously as well. I really appreciate you sharing this, as well as the advise from all of the others on this "painful subject". This that you've given to me will be emplimented, and put to good use, believe me. (copying that right now.)
Arigato, buyu.

[Steel Tiger]

Hey Tigg.

Believe me, I'm STILL trying to figure this one out, as earlier in my training, I used to almost NEVER struggle with this. But since shodan, this crap has shown up, and I dont know what to do about it. Like looking for a single drop of rain in the ocean.

Sounds like Shodan has some baggage attached that has thrown you off kilter. Could be a starting point for working things out.

[jks9199]

That's X-ACTLY what Shidoshi #1 said to me. And yes, that tunnel is a dark one, indead. It's just that i hope this IS a "normal" thing, and that in time, things will start to "click", It's just that I'm trying not to freak out at the present time, and to pick apart everything that i'm doning to get to the "meat" of it. But there are times when i feel a little discouragment at the progress that i'm making in doing this. Frusrating!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
One thing I've found to help me when I'm stalled or stuck like that is to go backwards.

Start at the bottom and "rebuild" everything. I'll use an example from my art; I'm sure BBT has recognizably similar elements. We have a punching routine or drill; I'll sometimes literally rebuild it from the start. I'll stop, and assess my stance, and make sure that's correct. I'll make sure I'm making the right shifts and leans, that my hands are each doing their job individually, then together, and even that my fist is correct. When I've done that -- I move from the basic stance to an actual fighting posture. And I'll look at the step; does it lead me into a solid stance? Was I moving the right direction; was I covered as I stepped in? Was I safe? Did I move my hands properly? And so on...

After 20+ years of training, I've hit that plateau or block many times. I've worked through it, and I've found myself falling back to spending more and more time on basics as my training has become more advanced. Make of this what you will...

But keep training!

[benkyoka]

But when your NOT used to spending too much time one technique (per Soke's teaching style) , and later down the road you see this same technique, but presented with/as henka, the whole thing becomes one huge discombobulated mess, as the root technique hasen't even been firlmly grasped yet. Fustrating !!!!!

You just provided yourself the key to your answer...

[stephen]

Slow down, relax and train.



I, obviously, have never seen your movement - so it'd be impossible to tell. However, I would say that most people train too fast.

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

I hear you on this one, as my technique can always benefit from some additional to detail. But when your NOT used to spending too much time one technique (per Soke's teaching style) , and later down the road you see this same technique, but presented with/as henka, the whole thing becomes one huge discombobulated mess, as the root technique hasen't even been firlmly grasped yet. Fustrating !!!!!

Soke's teaching style is not targeted towards people like you and me.
Train somewhere else if your instructors refuse to recognize that fact.

[Bigshadow]

But when your NOT used to spending too much time one technique (per Soke's teaching style) , and later down the road you see this same technique, but presented with/as henka, the whole thing becomes one huge discombobulated mess, as the root technique hasen't even been firlmly grasped yet. Fustrating !!!!!

Well, he may be doing that purposefully... He is always saying capture the feeling of this...

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Well, he may be doing that purposefully... He is always saying capture the feeling of this...

Yeah well, he's not talking to your or me.

[morph4me]

The fact that you recognize that you're not moving well and using stregnth instead of technique is a good thing, it means that you recognize it, and that only happens when you understand it. The more frustrated you get about it, the longer it's going to take to overcome it, relaxation is key, and you can't relax when you're frustrated. You have to know that if you stick it out, and keep practicing, it will happen for you.

[Kichigai-no-Okami]

Seriously, you guys have been AWESOME, and the help that you've given and shared will be put to good use (immediatly) ! If there are any more words of advice, I will gratefully accept them, and start implementing them during my next session. Slow is smooth, smooth is fast, right?

; )

[Bigshadow]

Seriously, you guys have been AWESOME, and the help that you've given and shared will be put to good use (immediatly) ! If there are any more words of advice, I will gratefully accept them, and start implementing them during my next session. Slow is smooth, smooth is fast, right?

; )

Remember to match uke's speed. So uke needs to go slow initially. Often I see uke move slow and tori moves at twice the speed. Or often uke starts out too fast for tori. Both uke and tori need to move at the *same* speed. And... Uke sets the speed.

[Bigshadow]

Yeah well, he's not talking to your or me.

Oh? And why wouldn't he be talking to you or I?

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Oh? And why wouldn't he be talking to you or I?

Because neither you nor I wear the ugly patch.

[Brian R. VanCise]

Because neither you nor I wear the ugly patch.

Personally I do not believe this to be true. Not that many, many people have not tried to make this a truth just that it probably is not the truth. Soke in my mind speaks to everyone and cares little what rank or who you are. (lord knows if you look close enough he has dissed people at the top and also admonished people at the bottom) He is focused and intent on showing his budo. (that is what I believe is closer to the truth) Everyone and I repeat everyone else is either along for the ride or not. (irregardless or rank or empires) Only people at a certain level tend to perpetuate that he is only teaching to them. Just my 02.

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Personally I do not believe this to be true.

I take Someya's words for it. And Sveneric's.

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Almost forgot...


Only people at a certain level tend to perpetuate that he is only teaching to them.

So not true. Case in point...yours truly.

[Brian R. VanCise]

Well that would be your opinion and their opinion. In reality that does not make it a truth anymore than my opinion. Still I stand by what I stated above and based on personal experience and wisdom from the top it does seem pretty right on. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon6.gif

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Well that would be your opinion and their opinion. In reality that does not make it a truth anymore than my opinion.

No, the truth shows itself when people try to emulate Hatsumi prematurely.

[Brian R. VanCise]

No, the truth shows itself when people try to emulate Hatsumi prematurely.

Now there is a statement that we can both agree on! http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon14.gif

[Kichigai-no-Okami]

Because neither you nor I wear the ugly patch.


Um........what the Hell is "The Ugly Patch" ??????????? (That's Funny!!!!!)

[SKB]

The biggest help to me was to train with females and the kids. I knew I would hurt them if I used strength!!! I know it sounds kind of sexist BUT it really helps me! They don't get into the male ego thing and I can focus on how I am supposed to do things! Might give it a try.

And what is the ugly patch????

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

http://ninpodojo.com/judan.gif

[kaizasosei]

Remember to match uke's speed. So uke needs to go slow initially. Often I see uke move slow and tori moves at twice the speed. Or often uke starts out too fast for tori. Both uke and tori need to move at the *same* speed. And... Uke sets the speed.




No, the truth shows itself when people try to emulate Hatsumi prematurely.


i would think, having problems with motivation is normal at some point..
i also try to always find new ways to improve myself as well as understand the world around me better.

i also think that it is a good thing that you notice it and that you openly address the issue of selfimprovement.
From another perspective, you seem troubled, as though you have not only failed some kind of mission, but you are questioning yourself, your abilities or even your martial art if not all ma.

i am certain that deep down you will want to agree with me here; martial arts works!...when you do the techniques just right- at the right angle, most importantly at the right time and in the correct spirit, they work.
even if you succeed in a technique perfectly, but you do it unfairly or hastily out of very negative emotions, then you still wont feel really great about later. if you try your best to be fair-to not injure your uke(after yourself or equally)- then, even if you mess up something you neednt feel that bad.
that is what training is for.

all i can think of now is the line from spiderman, with great power comes great responsibility.

just concentrate on not hurting yourself without being freaked out, and then try to control whatever you are trying to achieve with your uke. control your heart- and be fair. if you try to be fair, i garantee people will start to respect you more and more....and as your skill increases, some of that respect may turn to fear- but that is not the goal. if so, it shows that your yourself have fears that you are choosing to spread in the dojo rather than eliminate on the streets.

my tip is be good to everyone and you might realize how much there is out there to learn that will make you better and stronger too.

whatever the case, for the sake of higher strategy, i also had to learn how to turn myself off, so to speak- just observe the training and add my twocents. eventually however, when i know just the right thing to go after, i will switch myself back on. sounds kinda schizo i know..



j

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

i would think, having problems with motivation is normal at some point..

This is not a motivational issue.


From another perspective, you seem troubled, as though you have not only failed some kind of mission, but you are questioning yourself, your abilities or even your martial art if not all ma.

No, my main concern is boredom.


if you try your best to be fair-to not injure your uke(after yourself or equally)- then, even if you mess up something you neednt feel that bad.
that is what training is for.

If I mess up and don't get to know why and fix it, I feel like crap, no matter how nice I am.


all i can think of now is the line from spiderman, with great power comes great responsibility.

To me it seems that sometimes more power and influence equals LESS responsibility.


control your heart- and be fair. if you try to be fair, i garantee people will start to respect you more and more....

L-I-E. It's not that easy. Period.



and as your skill increases, some of that respect may turn to fear- but that is not the goal. if so, it shows that your yourself have fears that you are choosing to spread in the dojo rather than eliminate on the streets.

Seriously. Who cares about the streets when at the same time nobody is willing to lift a finger to improve upon that environment which we do have at least some degree of control over - i.e. the Bujinkan?


my tip is be good to everyone and you might realize how much there is out there to learn that will make you better and stronger too.

I'd wager that I have a stronger sense of righteousness than many in the Bujinkan. That and two bucks will get you a cup of coffee - and I don't drink coffee.

[kaizasosei]

yeah, i never said it was easy. actually i definately do think it is very difficult.

often i believe, one can learn from ones mistakes.





j

[Kichigai-no-Okami]

The biggest help to me was to train with females and the kids. I knew I would hurt them if I used strength!!! I know it sounds kind of sexist BUT it really helps me! They don't get into the male ego thing and I can focus on how I am supposed to do things! Might give it a try.

And what is the ugly patch????


Yep. I already have an 8-year old that knows that daddy's a ninja. And desperately wants to be one himself. And an open-minded (ninja-tolerant) wife who can help me there, too. Thanx 4 that, buyu.

[Kichigai-no-Okami]

i would think, having problems with motivation is normal at some point..
i also try to always find new ways to improve myself as well as understand the world around me better.

i also think that it is a good thing that you notice it and that you openly address the issue of selfimprovement.
From another perspective, you seem troubled, as though you have not only failed some kind of mission, but you are questioning yourself, your abilities or even your martial art if not all ma.

Deep. Also, selfishly on my part, true. All of this. (Damn, that hurt.)
: ...)
Sometimes it's not easy for Nagare to come when your heart is not right. I now realise this. As the late Glenn Morris-Sensei said "energy flows easier through a happy camper". I'm also reminded of Takamatsu-Soke's admonishment about using ninpo with an untrue heart...how if one does so, that "the techniques therin will fail utterly" (paraphraising). Examining motivations and attitudes when going in to play will serve me best as the basis. Then, as the song goes "free your mind , your a** will follow.
There are things, however, that uniquley set one apart from others that one also struggles with.Some things that are more apparente than others, and visa-versa. These things also contribute to "In/Yo" of Ninpo play(with the individual). So your correspondance is more true than I previously wanted to admit.

[Ronnin]

There's a saying in the Special Operations community "slow is smooth, smooth is fast" I live by this motto. It helps me with my movement. Just do it slow, concentrating on the movement only, not the end result AT ALL yet. That will come once you have the movement.

[Kichigai-no-Okami]

There's a saying in the Special Operations community "slow is smooth, smooth is fast" I live by this motto. It helps me with my movement. Just do it slow, concentrating on the movement only, not the end result AT ALL yet. That will come once you have the movement.
Right there with ya, Ranger-Buddy.
(75th All the Way! Hooah!)

[kaizasosei]

So your correspondance is more true than I previously wanted to admit. __________________


thanks. -
i also find interesting what you say about inyo and that martialarts doesnt work if your heart is not true.

j

[stephen]

thanks. -
i also find interesting what you say about inyo and that martialarts doesnt work if your heart is not true.

j


This is very true, but not suprising or mystical.

After all, It's hard to get support for the war in Iraq if we're torturing prisioners in abu ghraib.

[Seattletcj]

After all, It's hard to get support for the war in Iraq if we're torturing prisioners in abu ghraib.

uhhhh...can we keep naive and lunatic political stuff out of it?

[Seattletcj]

Remember to match uke's speed.......Both uke and tori need to move at the *same* speed. And... Uke sets the speed.

This is something that has irked me for a while. I'm not attacking you personally Bigshadow.

In real life people move at different speeds. Some people are fast. Some people are slow. Body types, mental processing etc.

For learning a technique, sure...slow is better.
There comes a point where this training just hits the ceiling with its artificiality though. Moving at exactly the same speed ?

Two people moving at exactly the same speed...will never happen.

Two people moving at exactly the same speed will absolutely ensure more success in the dojo. You will have a much higher chance to "win", or "pull stuff off". If this is your goal, then it is an appropriate way to train.

I'm not saying full speed here. I'm just advocating looking at real timing instead.
Judoka and boxers with exceptional timing have it....because they practice with real timing !
That does not mean full speed. It means going faster or slower appropriately.

[/rant]

[kaizasosei]

i think the above slowness refers to a state of mind and not just speed.

[stephen]

uhhhh...can we keep naive and lunatic political stuff out of it?


uhhh, you are REALLY, REALLY missing my point.

Which is okay, just please don't make assumptions.

:)

[Seattletcj]

uhhh, you are REALLY, REALLY missing my point.

Which is okay, just please don't make assumptions.

:)

So what is your point?

Sorry, but I can only go on what you actually write.

[Shicomm]

it's a tough job to ignore the "bad / stupid / political / ( insert your value here ) talk " but i'll have a try...

Kichigai-no-Okami ; the situation sounds very familiar... and i guess it happens to all buyu at some time...
Sometimes even the best things can 'look' so awfully worse...
I had that feel for a long time when i got to Japan for the 2nd time.
Thinking that training would be a bit easier and more accesable was a very stupid thing to do as it frustrated me more as the days of training went by...
But i kept going and try to get at least the sessions with the teachers that i felt best with.
About 3 weeks later things went a bit better ; i was still sucking like hell ( still do... ;) ) but in some way it just didn't feel 'only bad' ...
It's hard to explain and i guess there were more things involved but what counted the most for me was the fact that i kept training , even when frustrations got really high...

So i guess that's a thing that is indeed tough ( it's like the most sour lemon ever... ) but it has to be...
Gambatte ; just keep going , how mad you get , how bad you feel , how helpless it seems...

There will always be a moment in the future when you'll look back at the past when you can say to yourself ; "it was worth the tough travel here... "

Gambatte kudasai! :)

[jks9199]

:shrug:
This is something that has irked me for a while. I'm not attacking you personally Bigshadow.

In real life people move at different speeds. Some people are fast. Some people are slow. Body types, mental processing etc.

For learning a technique, sure...slow is better.
There comes a point where this training just hits the ceiling with its artificiality though. Moving at exactly the same speed ?

Two people moving at exactly the same speed...will never happen.

Two people moving at exactly the same speed will absolutely ensure more success in the dojo. You will have a much higher chance to "win", or "pull stuff off". If this is your goal, then it is an appropriate way to train.

I'm not saying full speed here. I'm just advocating looking at real timing instead.
Judoka and boxers with exceptional timing have it....because they practice with real timing !
That does not mean full speed. It means going faster or slower appropriately.

[/rant]

The two partners don't both have to move at the same speed, defining speed as rate of travel. But they do have to move at corresponding paces, or relative rates. If I move at full speed, and you move at half speed... I'm gonna get you everytime. Or, if you move at full speed, and I move at half speed -- I'm gonna "get got" everytime.

If you work with different partners, but each maintain the same ratio or proportional speed or pace, say all at half speed, each person will be moving at different absolute speeds -- but everyone will be on the same proportional scale. So, while my 1/2 speed is quick -- yours is lightning quick (because your full speed is mindbogglingly quick) -- but someone else's is S-L-O-W. Train with each person, and you'll experience each sort of relative speed.

And, gee, that's confusing. :shrug:

I think I'm agreeing with you...

[MrFunnieman]

:shrug:

The two partners don't both have to move at the same speed, defining speed as rate of travel. But they do have to move at corresponding paces, or relative rates. If I move at full speed, and you move at half speed... I'm gonna get you everytime. Or, if you move at full speed, and I move at half speed -- I'm gonna "get got" everytime.
And, gee, that's confusing. :shrug:

I think I'm agreeing with you...

I agree too. Moving at the speed of the uke is about sensitivity and your sense of timing. I am sure that is what Bigshadow meant when he stated that you should match the uke speed. If you are not aware of the speed of the attack your are gonna "get got" everytime. Some folks are so focused on what they are doing to the point that they are not receptive to what the uke is doing. The tori should be reading and responding to the uke.

Kichigai-no-Okami, if you are having trouble using too much strength, then take it away. Burn your arms and legs out with intense exercise before training. You will probably not be training so "hot", and you will be unable to rely on strength - it will be drained.

[Seattletcj]

LOL.

jks9199, I get what your saying.
Ya, I think we may agree.

:lol:

[Bigshadow]

I agree too. Moving at the speed of the uke is about sensitivity and your sense of timing. I am sure that is what Bigshadow meant when he stated that you should match the uke speed. If you are not aware of the speed of the attack your are gonna "get got" everytime. Some folks are so focused on what they are doing to the point that they are not receptive to what the uke is doing. The tori should be reading and responding to the uke.


Thanks, and yes, I was kind of getting at that. Speed is relative and proportionate. However, you subtly pointed out timing. This is integral to moving proportionately to uke's speed. If tori moves late, tori will have to RUSH or go faster than uke to get where they need to be. Uke will appear to be moving too fast, but it simply could be a case of tori moving LATE. If the timing is dead on, the movement will not feel rushed or exceptionally fast, even if the uke attacks fast. Unfortunately, we cannot take each bit out and work on it independently (ie, timing and speed) and both affect each other.

As for my post, it was with regards to training and learning the proper timing and technique. When uke speeds up later, it won't make much difference, unless of course the lesson wasn't fully learned.

[Bigshadow]

In real life people move at different speeds. Some people are fast. Some people are slow. Body types, mental processing etc.

For learning a technique, sure...slow is better.
There comes a point where this training just hits the ceiling with its artificiality though. Moving at exactly the same speed ?


Absolutely!



I'm not saying full speed here. I'm just advocating looking at real timing instead.
That does not mean full speed. It means going faster or slower appropriately.



Absolutely! However, babies don't start off running when they are trying to move upright. They walk first. So, yes, your right to some degree, but it seems to me you advocate starting one's training at full throttle and I disagree with that. If not, I think we agree more than you initially thought.

[Seattletcj]

Absolutely!

Absolutely! However, babies don't start off running when they are trying to move upright. They walk first.

The OP is a shodan.
There should be some kind of foundation to work from there right?
Well, I guess it depends.



So, yes, your right to some degree, but it seems to me you advocate starting one's training at full throttle and I disagree with that. If not, I think we agree more than you initially thought.well, I never did advocate starting someone full throttle if you read what I wrote, so yes maybe we are in more agreement then I initially thought.

Although there is still a big difference between artificial speed and timing training, and real speed and timing training.

[Kichigai-no-Okami]

It's hard to explain and i guess there were more things involved but what counted the most for me was the fact that i kept training , even when frustrations got really high...

So i guess that's a thing that is indeed tough ( it's like the most sour lemon ever... ) but it has to be...
Gambatte ; just keep going , how mad you get , how bad you feel , how helpless it seems...

There will always be a moment in the future when you'll look back at the past when you can say to yourself ; "it was worth the tough travel here... "


Shicomm,
In all of my frustration, I seemed to have overlooked/forgotten this
simple, basic truth. Seems like at times like this, it seem near impossible to see the forest for the trees unless you......(wait for it).....slow down.....get your heart right....chillllllll. Arigato gozaimasu for helping me to remember that; all of you. Nin= to endure, right? (flicking my thumb on my head)

[Kichigai-no-Okami]

thanks. -
i also find interesting what you say about inyo and that martialarts doesnt work if your heart is not true.

j

True that is, dog. Sho' nuff.

[Kichigai-no-Okami]

The OP is a shodan.


Nidan, actually. But...whatever. I see your point ;)

[Kichigai-no-Okami]

This is something that has irked me for a while. I'm not attacking you personally Bigshadow.

In real life people move at different speeds. Some people are fast. Some people are slow. Body types, mental processing etc.

For learning a technique, sure...slow is better.
There comes a point where this training just hits the ceiling with its artificiality though. Moving at exactly the same speed ?

Two people moving at exactly the same speed...will never happen.

Two people moving at exactly the same speed will absolutely ensure more success in the dojo. You will have a much higher chance to "win", or "pull stuff off". If this is your goal, then it is an appropriate way to train.

I'm not saying full speed here. I'm just advocating looking at real timing instead.
Judoka and boxers with exceptional timing have it....because they practice with real timing !
That does not mean full speed. It means going faster or slower appropriately.

[/rant]
I have a plethora of problems with this. I think the reason is that I always look at going fast ("real time"), instead of, as Brian and the others had stated,slowing down (appropriately, thanks.) and spending more time with the technique(analysis). This is where alot of "gung ho" ninjas begin with problems (especially in kyu levels). Matching (various) speeds with (different) uke is daunting at times, but would serve (tori) better in the long run, with the differences that each uke brings to play. Good stuff.

[Kichigai-no-Okami]

Kichigai-no-Okami, if you are having trouble using too much strength, then take it away. Burn your arms and legs out with intense exercise before training. You will probably not be training so "hot", and you will be unable to rely on strength - it will be drained.
It's funny that you mention that, Funnieman. This is a practice tht I've just taken up. Reminicent of a practice at ESI (bodygaurd school). They make a student shoot and shoot and shoot. If he messes up too much, they make him drag around a truck tire attached to a rope (18-wheeler tire!) while running, have him do x-amount of "laps". Then he stops, stands on the tire (unstable platform on which to shoot), and shoots some more. Do that enough times, and comes back to shoot later, he's in the proper "zone" in which to learn (to shoot/not to shoot/shoot well !), same practice, slightly different end, though. (Or is it?) Thanx for that, brotha.

[Bigshadow]

Although there is still a big difference between artificial speed and timing training, and real speed and timing training.

I totally disagree! Speed and timing are speed and timing, regardless of it's environment! Artificial light has the same speed and timing as natural light.

[Bigshadow]

The OP is a shodan.


I wasn't aware of that, but either way, it really doesn't matter.

[Seattletcj]

I totally disagree! Speed and timing are speed and timing, regardless of it's environment! Artificial light has the same speed and timing as natural light.

LOL, being as we are not light.....I dont know that the analogy works.

Look....essentially you are talking about pretending to move at real speeds while moving at slow speeds.

This is completly artificial, obviously.
I'm not saying its un-necessary or without benefits.

For one, mental processing at real speeds determines timing at real speeds. If you cannot process at real speeds, the timing will not work the same.

If you always train at an artificial speed, your mind will be trained to compute at that level.

[Bigshadow]

If you cannot process at real speeds, the timing will not work the same.

If you cannot process at real speeds, you have NOT trained long enough at slow speeds. So of course the timing will not feel the same! :rolleyes:

[Seattletcj]

If you cannot process at real speeds, you have NOT trained long enough at slow speeds. So of course the timing will not feel the same! :rolleyes:


One does not get good timing at playing basketball by playing in slow motion.
Judoka are not able to perform with timing because of slow motion training.

This is common sense stuff.
It takes heavy indoctrination to override this kind of common sense.

Anyway, I analogize for somewhat de-railing the thread.

[Kichigai-no-Okami]

I wasn't aware of that, but either way, it really doesn't matter.
Nidan, actually. But like you said, it don't matter.

[DWeidman]

I'm having a hard time of it !!! During the last year or so with my training, I have been using body strength in my taijutsu to make up for suck-ass body dynamic and movement/kukan. As a nidan in BBT/N, i would like to at least look like I'm not trying to embarass myself when called upon to demo. Also, having B/GJJ in my backgroung dosen't sem to help the fact that lately I've been moving like a pregnant yak. On crack.
My Shidoshi(s) tell me to "keep training" and "ride it out", but (with due love/respect to them), I'm starting to get real antsy, as warriors often operate in less-than-ideal situations (i.e. when injured, when tired, inclimate weather, when being pursued, having to take out an attacker, etc.).
As rank means almost nothing to me, I am not ashamed to say that there are times when I feel as though I don't know what the hell I'm doing, and that I need help. Any (serious) advise would be appreciated.

Serious Advice:

Pfffft!. For anyone telling you to go slower or less muscled.... who cares.

Seriously, train hard and muscle-y. This is a phase you go through before you come back down off of it.

I suspect (no proof here) that when you are going hard, fast, and strong - - no one in the class can handle you.

Find someone who can. Train train train.

You will come out of it eventually. Naturally.

-Daniel

PS. Yeah this is going to ruffle feathers. Pffffft. ;-)

[Bigshadow]

Serious Advice:

Pfffft!. For anyone telling you to go slower or less muscled.... who cares.

Seriously, train hard and muscle-y. This is a phase you go through before you come back down off of it.

I suspect (no proof here) that when you are going hard, fast, and strong - - no one in the class can handle you.

Find someone who can. Train train train.

You will come out of it eventually. Naturally.



Most people don't stop being muscle-y, hard, and fast even when told to not do that. It takes time and they eventually achieve it, even though being coached. So, one could conclude it does happen naturally to some extent. I can see where you are coming, although you didn't elaborate about all the potential bad habits that will need to be gotten rid of, with that approach.

[DWeidman]

Most people don't stop being muscle-y, hard, and fast even when told to not do that. It takes time and they eventually achieve it, even though being coached. So, one could conclude it does happen naturally to some extent. I can see where you are coming, although you didn't elaborate about all the potential bad habits that will need to be gotten rid of, with that approach.

Sorry - a bit more elaboration:

I think there is a tendency in this art to focus WAY too early on the elderly stage of training.

I wonder if there aren't a LOT of negative repercussions to acting like a 75 yr old japanese guy when you are 30. He certainly didn't when he was 30.

On the same topic - I also wonder if the reasons so many people are told to slow down - no power -- is just raw insecurity that a low kyu would kick the crap out of the mega-dans.

Or maybe not. LOL

Whatever.

-Daniel

[Bigshadow]

Sorry - a bit more elaboration:

I think there is a tendency in this art to focus WAY too early on the elderly stage of training.

I wonder if there aren't a LOT of negative repercussions to acting like a 75 yr old japanese guy when you are 30. He certainly didn't when he was 30.


Interesting point of view.



On the same topic - I also wonder if the reasons so many people are told to slow down - no power -- is just raw insecurity that a low kyu would kick the crap out of the mega-dans.

Or maybe not. LOL

Whatever.



Who knows..... Some could be doing it for that reason, I suppose, although I haven't seen it.... yet.

[Brian R. VanCise]

Sorry - a bit more elaboration:

I think there is a tendency in this art to focus WAY too early on the elderly stage of training.

I wonder if there aren't a LOT of negative repercussions to acting like a 75 yr old japanese guy when you are 30. He certainly didn't when he was 30.

On the same topic - I also wonder if the reasons so many people are told to slow down - no power -- is just raw insecurity that a low kyu would kick the crap out of the mega-dans.

Or maybe not. LOL

Whatever.

-Daniel

I do have to agree with you Daniel in that one should act ones age and yet I also agree that one should attempt to work technique first but...... if you have the power, strength, speed, etc. that can come into play in the moment to give you an advantage. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon6.gif

BigShadow I have seen what Daniel talks about here. There are some people hiding behind rank, technique, etc. and some people do need to get hit a little more in an unexpected way to toughen up.

[Bigshadow]

BigShadow I have seen what Daniel talks about here. There are some people hiding behind rank, technique, etc. and some people do need to get hit a little more in an unexpected way to toughen up.

It wasn't that I didn't believe him, I am quite sure they are out there. :cool:

[Kreth]

There are some people hiding behind rank, technique, etc...
Yeah, we just had article posted in MT Magazine written by one of them... :uhoh: