Bummed and confused

[Primal Kuen]

I need some advice...
I Started taking wing chun around 4 monyhs ago...I like it, and the teacher is cool...here's the problem: I'm taking this class on blind faith that it will be effective.
we are not allowed to spar, we are not even allowed to WATCH the advanced classes in which sparring takes place. Everything learned at this point is in slow motion...sparring / fighting is prohibited until blue sash, which is about 1 1/2 years away !
I understand that it's important to lay a strong foundation for this style before applying the principles...blah blah blah...but I'm not rich by any means. I scrape the bottom of the barrel to be able to do this, and it's frustrating to not even be allowed to see WC in action ( via the advanced classes etc. ) you know what I mean ?
To be clear, I'm not in this to learn an art so much as I am to be able to defend myself in a realistic situation. I'm not impatient for those skills...but at the same time my money and blind faith are starting to not mix too well.
What do you guys think ?

[Blindside]

If someone told me that I had to wait 1.5 years in the art before I ever saw a punch thrown at me with intent, I'd go find another teacher.

Lamont

[tellner]

There's nothing wrong with waiting for a while before free-sparring. A lot of people start it too early. The students find something that works well enough (usually some combination of strength, speed and reach) and don't develop any further. That's no good.

But there has to be pressure. You need to have confidence in your tools. So before you do full out sparring you need to do exercises or more constrained sparring that gives you some of the benefits while you get your foundation. It may not be full on sparring, but there needs to be some way you can test it and get used to opposition.

I don't understand the bit about not being allowed to watch people sparring. I could see not allowing beginners in the advanced class or not allowing them to watch if the lesson for the evening were something like attacking with a knife which is something a good teacher won't show to people he doesn't know and trust.

[still learning]

Hello, Trust your intincts in your feelings on this.

If this is not what you want? trust that feelings and move on to something else. Take what you have learn and keep what is usefull.

To not be able to watch advance students? .....NOT sure about this? What is so secret here? BEWARE? Does not sound right for todays world of training.

Trust you "heart" on this one? You wouldn't be asking unless you feel something is NOT right for you!

Move on to something that you want out of learning the martial arts....they are not the only ones teaching skills in fighting back.

Aloha (just an opinion)

[Drac]

Hello, Trust your intincts in your feelings on this.

If this is not what you want? trust that feelings and move on to something else. Take what you have learn and keep what is usefull.

To not be able to watch advance students? .....NOT sure about this? What is so secret here? BEWARE? Does not sound right for todays world of training.

Trust you "heart" on this one? You wouldn't be asking unless you feel something is NOT right for you!

Move on to something that you want out of learning the martial arts....they are not the only ones teaching skills in fighting back.

Aloha (just an opinion)

I must agree..WAY back when I was a white belt in the Shorin-Ryu system we were sparring after about a month in the dojo, and we sparred with the Senior students and Sensei if there were no intermediate ranks about...

[Danny T]

There are several different opinions on the most effective way to instruct and coach. Wing Chun can be a very effective training system. It can also be very ineffective; of course this can be said of all training systems. Depends on the trainer as well as the individual training. I’m certain we all have see poorly trained as well as very well trained athletes in other sports.

With the information you have given we don’t know your instructor or training method only a small part of it, therefore, I would be remiss in making any real opinions as to the particular method be used.

As a training system Wing Chun should take 2-3 years to be quite effective. Another 2-3 years to be extremely effective depending upon the individual and the amt of actual training time they put in. I have seen persons with 2 years experience completely overwhelm one with over 7 years training. Does this mean WC is effective or ineffective?

As to a year and half before sparring; I feel this is a bit long compared to “our” training. WE teach our beginners two basic counter-attacks and have them working at 1/2 -3/4 speed by the end of their 2nd class. Sure they know what is coming at them but not when or which side but they are still working at a speed they can handle and are learning about timing and distance. We have them sparring with-in 3-6 months depending on the individual’s ability. As to watching the advance class sparring we all spar together. There is nothing secret or hidden. Many times we may not allow a lower trained person work certain things in sparring but for the most part if they ask about a movement or usage and have worked it they are allowed to spar with it. I’m not concerned about perfection in sparring but effectiveness and efficiency and it doesn’t take the average person 1/12 years to be ready for that.

Something I stress to all who train with me. Do not take what I say or do as being the truth. It may be “my” truth but it isn’t your truth. YOU have got to train it, spar it, and experience it. Only then can it be your truth.

Danny

[shesulsa]

I personally don't know enough about WC, your teacher, his school to really say I don't approve of his teaching method nor speak to what he expects of you - he could be testing your patience, your trust .... I know you said you're not there to learn an art, but he could be a staunch traditionalist.

Although, I must say I share Blindside's concern that you won't have anything thrown at you for 1.5 years.

I *really* think you should talk to your instructor and share with him your training goals (you said self-defense) and your concerns and see what he has to say.

[JBrainard]

What do you guys think ?

Wing Chun is a great self defense martial art. Maybe look for a school with a different approach to sparring? When I trained in WC back in the day, I was sparing within the first week.
Good luck.
~JB

[jks9199]

I'm not going to try to assess this teacher's methods when all I've got to go on is a new student's description.

"Sparring" is not fighting. And not all "sparring" is the same. Sparring, done right, is simply one method of practicing the learned techniques with an opponent. I don't let students free spar until they've developed some of the techniques so that they've got something to spar with; otherwise, it's just two people trying to pound on each other. But -- from almost day one, they're practicing the techniques with a partner at appropriate times, and at varying degrees of resistance.

Now, I am curious about the "can't even watch advanced classes" aspect... First, I don't teach "basic" and "advanced" classes; I teach one class, and expect students to learn at an appropriate level. But I have had to tell some students that they shouldn't (how can I really enforce a can't?) watch some TV shows or movies, or play some of the semi-martial arts video games. Why? Because they were picking up bad habits... So it's possible that the instructor here doesn't want new students immitating some of the things they see advanced students do without understanding.

[bushidomartialarts]

I'll support the 'trust your gut' camp on this one. You've got some sort of radar going off...look hard at why, and while you're at it why not try an intro at a few other schools in town?

[Primal Kuen]

apreciate the feedback...

The instructor does hold the advanced classes at a different time...it's closed to the public and even us less advanced students.

we do do some pak sau drills...things like that. I do'nt know...I hate to quit.

you know I have seen some advanced students doing chi sau (not sparring ) outside the school prior to their class...and it looked awesome. BUT what I want to do is throw on some head gear and gloves , act like the dumb ass at the bar, and come at them "street style" ...and hope they beat the **** out of me. But no-one has taken me up...or really it's not allowed.

It sucks, but I think I'll talk to the sifu once more, and if the school cannot demonstrate it's effectiveness I think I'll take my money elswhere.

I want to make it clear that I respect the sifu and the school, and appriciate the idea of learning an art that has been passed down for so long in a traditional way like it's being taught here.

[Bigshadow]

I need some advice...
we are not allowed to spar, we are not even allowed to WATCH the advanced classes in which sparring takes place. Everything learned at this point is in slow motion...sparring / fighting is prohibited until blue sash, which is about 1 1/2 years away !


If you train in slow motion and focus on correctness you will learn faster. Once you have correct technique, you will probably be instructed to ramp it up and make it fast.



I scrape the bottom of the barrel to be able to do this, and it's frustrating to not even be allowed to see WC in action ( via the advanced classes etc. ) you know what I mean ?


It is understood. You must be careful here, though. Who knows more, your teacher or you? You either need to trust your teacher or find another one, IMO.

[Bigshadow]

and if the school cannot demonstrate it's effectiveness I think I'll take my money elswhere.


No offense intended, but, first you need to be sure you know what "effectiveness" looks like.

[Primal Kuen]

that's true also...

[shesulsa]

To be perfectly honest with you - and I don't want to start an argument, debate or make you think I'm better than you are - the whole "prove to me your art is street effective" mentality won't go ever well with traditional artists. If I felt I'd been clear about how our class is structured and a newbie came at me with that, I'd show him the door without ceremony. Many instructors of traditional styles feel they don't have anything to prove.

If you want to be able to don gear and get beat the crap out of right off the bat, I would indeed suggest you find another school. You said you weren't impatient to get to the real deal, but everything you're typing says you are - is this something you're aware of?

[Bigshadow]

that's true also...

Try not to be bummed and confused over it. An alternative is maybe contact some WC folks privately regarding your sifu and get a feel for how he is perceived in the WC community. Sometimes you have do a little homework on the person before starting with them. Maybe find out who his teacher is and his teacher's peers and ask questions in the WC community about them.

Just gather some info first before making any decisions. :)

[shesulsa]

Try not to be bummed and confused over it. An alternative is maybe contact some WC folks privately regarding your sifu and get a feel for how he is perceived in the WC community. Sometimes you have do a little homework on the person before starting with them. Maybe find out who his teacher is and his teacher's peers and ask questions in the WC community about them.

Just gather some info first before making any decisions. :)
Good advice!

[theletch1]

Try not to be bummed and confused over it. An alternative is maybe contact some WC folks privately regarding your sifu and get a feel for how he is perceived in the WC community. Sometimes you have do a little homework on the person before starting with them. Maybe find out who his teacher is and his teacher's peers and ask questions in the WC community about them.

Just gather some info first before making any decisions. :)
Don't regard this suggestion as snooping either. Ideally this would have been done before you ever began classes but some things are just learned over time. Who knows, you may find out that you're with the best of the best for your art in your area and realize that waiting is worth it.

[Primal Kuen]

perhaps I am being impatient after all...

I was invited to a mma school the other night and this dude was just drilling me about "real fighting" etc. I was allowed to get in the ring with a Judo/BJJ student who had been there 6 months. I was impressed.

I was'nt attempting wing chun techniques, obviously I don't know enough yet...but I'm no slouch at 6'2 and 215...and this dude threw me, put me in 2 arm bars and a triangle choke that damn neer put me to sleep.

I can't be doing all that because of some injuries, so I'm not saying I want to do mma now...but the point is these guys learn to fight effectively quickly . and with this instructor barking in my ear....
I guess it made me think about how I was spending my money, knowing I myself am prohibited from sparring for 1.5 years...

impatience or not..you got to agree thats one hell of a leap of faith in this school is it not ?

[Bigshadow]

perhaps I am being impatient after all...

I was invited to a mma school the other night and this dude was just drilling me about "real fighting" etc. I was allowed to get in the ring with a Judo/BJJ student who had been there 6 months. I was impressed.


Well, It is easy to impress those who do not yet have the skill or knowledge. No offense intended. I say the same thing with regards to computer users (me being a software engineer).



impatience or not..you got to agree thats one hell of a leap of faith in this school is it not ?

It is always a leap of faith. :) Paitence is a virtue.

[Bigshadow]

I guess it made me think about how I was spending my money, knowing I myself am prohibited from sparring for 1.5 years...


I can only speak for myself when I say... My training is far more valuable than the money I spend. The money is just a token. Don't get me wrong, I am not talking about what I make. Simply, I believe my training has a value far more than money.

[newGuy12]

Well, I can totally understand the confusion that Primal Kuen mentions. I myself am totally new at my school. I like my school a lot. It has:

1) A Good Teacher
2) Nice, friendly people
3) We learn fantastic motions.
4) I get good exercise
5) It is not expensive,
6) It is conveniently located.
7) The class times are very convenient.

Now, there is one thing which gives me pause. We do not spar. Now, that is not a "deal killer" to me. I can give that up. I may even join another club (which is also conveniently located) in order to augment my training with sparring (we only meet twice a week at my school).

Its interesting to me... there are two well known Wing-Chun Teachers in my city. One is known for very combative classes. You will most likely get a black eye if you go there. Its to be expected, or you should not be surprised. Why? Because of the nature of the classes there.

The other Teacher's class is not that way at all, it is taught in a different way.

Which one is better? It depends on which students that you talk to. Because I have spoke with students of both Teachers. I have spoken with a student that first went to one Teacher and then to another, because he got black eyes -- one for Christmas and one for New Year! hahahahahahaha!!!!

Now, both sets of students love their Teachers (its a small pond around here, everyone knows everyone else pretty much). They just go to whichever school that they prefer.

Its interesting to me, that's all.

Good luck getting to the bottom of this, Primal Kuen.





Robert Witten

[JBrainard]

I was invited to a mma school the other night and this dude was just drilling me about "real fighting" etc.

Just a heads up: You're going to get that speach from many MMA teachers. I'm not going to get into why I disagree 'cuz I like to keep this forum friendly :)
Just do your homework, shop around, and find what art is best for you. As someone on this thread pointed out, you may have already found it and you just don't know it yet.

[kalikg]

Just from what I've read here (which isn't to be confused with knowing you) I would say that you aren't interested in traditional martial arts but are more interested in combatives (long term goals vs. short term returns). I'm not saying that in a negative way...just what I gather from the thread so far. My suggestion would be to try Krav Maga;a great all around self-defense system that is quick and easy to learn and is also quite a workout (not to mention effective). There are other combative systems out there; look around and see what you find.

Good Luck,
Peace be with you

[Touch Of Death]

I need some advice...
I Started taking wing chun around 4 monyhs ago...I like it, and the teacher is cool...here's the problem: I'm taking this class on blind faith that it will be effective.
we are not allowed to spar, we are not even allowed to WATCH the advanced classes in which sparring takes place. Everything learned at this point is in slow motion...sparring / fighting is prohibited until blue sash, which is about 1 1/2 years away !
I understand that it's important to lay a strong foundation for this style before applying the principles...blah blah blah...but I'm not rich by any means. I scrape the bottom of the barrel to be able to do this, and it's frustrating to not even be allowed to see WC in action ( via the advanced classes etc. ) you know what I mean ?
To be clear, I'm not in this to learn an art so much as I am to be able to defend myself in a realistic situation. I'm not impatient for those skills...but at the same time my money and blind faith are starting to not mix too well.
What do you guys think ?Common sense says leave, but you may want to throw more salt in your faith's eyes. LOL Here is what my faith says... you will learn to fight, but the cage match gigs aren't going to be your thing. Look at it like this WC will allow you to handle a certain percentage of future confrontations. If you want that number to go higher you need to seek out a system you can better relate too and will be effective against people that might know something, and in this day and age, everybody that confronts you probably believes they will win; because, they know something about fighting.
Sean

[Senjojutsu]

... we are not even allowed to WATCH the advanced classes in which sparring takes place.

For me, this is the most problematic statement you have made.

Are you allowed to watch advanced classes/students without sparring?

Now I do not have a background in CMA traditions but in my three plus decades of wanderings I have seen such a consistent correlation between "secrecy" and fraudulent MA schools and cults.

This for clarification does not mean I am saying any off-the-street school newbie gets taught a style’s advanced teachings & concepts during their rookie year. It means if you are not allowed to observe through others (with their flaws) where you will be in two-three, five years I think it is a RED FLAG.

[tellner]

To be perfectly honest with you - and I don't want to start an argument, debate or make you think I'm better than you are - the whole "prove to me your art is street effective" mentality won't go ever well with traditional artists. If I felt I'd been clear about how our class is structured and a newbie came at me with that, I'd show him the door without ceremony. Many instructors of traditional styles feel they don't have anything to prove.

If you want to be able to don gear and get beat the crap out of right off the bat, I would indeed suggest you find another school. You said you weren't impatient to get to the real deal, but everything you're typing says you are - is this something you're aware of?

On the other hand, there's a very legitimate question here. It's fundamental and extremely reasonable. Is the $1000 dollars plus he's going to spend before he is even allowed to watch people making it work under pressure well spent, or is he getting ripped off? What he's getting is eighteen months of "Don't worry, it will be great once we let you have a taste." He'll either leave or he'll be so heavily invested that he'll believe anything and keep with it even if it turns out they're selling sizzle instead of sausage and he's been subjected to the old bait-and-switch.

You're right. "Traditional" martial artists won't like his attitude for a very specific definition of "traditional". And that is why the "traditional" martial arts are in steep decline. A few decades ago when they were the only game in town they could get away with promising "jam yesterday and jam tomorrow but never jam today". Scoop on a couple large dollops of Mystic Wisdom of the Exotic Orient(tm) and top with RESPECT and people would pretty much swallow anything. What many teachers were really selling was the ritual process, group identity, a personality cult, and ego buy-in on the part of the student.

Much as the "traditionalists" decry MMA and with all its limitations and imperfections it's served a useful purpose. It was willing to ask the question "Can you fight?" For the most part - and I'll be brutally honest - the answer was "No. We can't. But we have cool white pajamas and play some really cool status games with each other."

Now, I agree that a lot of places start unstructured sparring too early. A lot of young MMA hopefuls find that strength and speed only get you so far where "so" is "not very" against a good technical boxer or wrestler. But you can turn someone into a decent ring-ready Thai boxer in a year and a half. A dedicated kid can be a competent wrestler by then. The US Marine Corps can take someone with an IQ of 75 and turn him into a skilled professional soldier in about the same time. If that's the standard the "traditional martial artists" will need to be damned impressive down the line and provide something other than "It's the Art" or "It's not about nasty things like fighting" or "Tradition" or "Respect and humility" when someone comes to them and says "I want to be able to fight".

If someone wants to learn to fight or get good self defense skills and is up front about this he's not being disrespectful or any of those other hiss-words by saying so and expressing reservations when he isn't even allowed to see the evidence that he'll get what he's looking for. He just doesn't want to waste his time or money. That's perfectly legitimate. If the "traditionalist" can't give some sort of real honest assurance that that is the case or doesn't have the integrity to say "I can't do it. That's not what I'm here for" the student should fire the teacher without spending another moment there.

You see, the teacher does have something to prove. He needs to be able to show that he is what he says he is, not a fraud. That doesn't mean getting in lots of challenge matches every time a newbie walks through the door. It does mean having a mechanism for matching the student's expectations with the reality of what he's going to end up with.

Now let's talk about your second paragraph. We're all adults here, so I will assume that your ego is mature enough to handle a bit of simple honesty. You are showing a really egregious lack of respect for the original correspondent. He isn't talking about "donning gear" and "beating the crap" out of people. He's wondering if he's being scammed. And frankly, the indications are that he is.

There is a number of things that one doesn't show beginners. It's a lot easier to really mess someone up than it is to batter them into submission according to the rules of fair play. Breaking a neck or entering and gutting someone is very simple. And I wouldn't want to show it to someone whose character I wasn't sure about. But beyond that, the idea that a student has to be heavily personally invested and spend years before seeing how training plays out in application against a resisting opponent or even see how advanced students move with each other is ludicrous. There aren't any deathless arcane secrets there.

You expect him to continue wasting time and money without his very real doubts being addressed. So you distort what he says and turn it around in a very perjorative way. You insult someone who wants proof and denigrate anyone who is willing to offer him same. Is that the conduct one expects of an instructor, holder of the Mystic Black Belt? I think not.

You'd "show him the door without ceremony" because he wants to know what he's really getting into? Maybe the Korean martial arts are different than what I've been taught. Maybe it's just the particular instructors. But the traditions I come out of hold that the teacher is there for the student's benefit, not so much the other way around. An honest question deserves an honest answer. Respect has to go both ways. Before asking someone to trust you, give you money and spend his precious time doing what you say you are obligated to let him know what he's getting into and see how well it matches what he's looking for. And even if you're going to kill a man there's no reason not to be polite.

[tellner]

I think this needs to be added...

I put "traditional" in quotes because this attitude is way out of line with actual fighting traditions when you actually take a close look. The idea that fighters and warriors wouldn't or couldn't show that they had chops, especially when they were asking someone to pay them money for their skills, would have been ludicrous throughout pretty much all of human history. My teacher isn't just a "trad", he's a "famtrad" to borrow a term from the Wiccans. When he was looking for a new teacher his grandmother's only question was "Stevie, can he fight?" This from a traditional teacher whose ancestors had been in the game for many generations.

To her it was the most obvious question in the world. Why should her grandson waste his time on a teacher if he couldn't be assured he was getting the real deal?

Primal Kuen, you're not being unreasonable. There's nothing in Wing Chun which is so secret or awe-inspiring that you can't even seen two-year students and what sort of skills they are supposed to develop. There are good reasons not to spar too early, but your doubts are well-founded.

[shesulsa]

If anyone joins any club without investigating whether or not it's for them, then it's up to that person to make their own subsequent decisions. If this guy purchased lessons not seeing what these guys can really do, then it's his error.

Since you said he said nothing about donning gear and getting the crap beat out of him, I'll point you to this post by him (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=861199&postcount=11), fourth para. And yes, I would turn him out if he showed repeated and continued impatience at his level of training with an eagerness to learn advanced skills without completing basic and intermediate studies - that's just me. ;)

But does he know what effective WC looks like? He knows that some MMAers kicked his butt - good for him. Does that make what he's doing ineffective? Some seem to think that the willingness to show anything to anybody indicates quality and effectiveness - it doesn't necessarily mean this. So ... who's really running the scam here? ;)

I've seen people chomping at the bit to see that they're paying for effective study have a taste and then become so bored with their level of training they can't think about anything else but three or four levels ahead. So why set him up for failure in this case?

Of course he has a right to know what he's buying - perhaps a discussion of his goals with the instructor and asking, respectfully, about the secrecy of advanced classes would be in order?

I will not engage with you in the MMA vs. TMA argument - it's not even a dead horse anymore, it's an unrecognizable mass of goo.

What I will say, without ego and with honesty, is that I see a lot of people these days who feel that their dollar entitles them to certain knowledge at a certain level when they want it, how they want it. And do you want to know what I think about that? It's bull ****. I'm not required to show ANYbody ANYthing just because they have the money. If I think they demonstrate to me good character, trustworthiness, many of the tenets that I think are important consistently over a fair amount of time such that they may learn deadly techniques, then I'll proceed as I think best. To show anyone with a buck and the willingness to learn how to fight, maim and kill is flat out irresponsible in my opinion. And to me, that's what traditional martial arts are all about.

:asian:

[Carol]

Moderator Note

ATTENTION ALL USERS

PLEASE KEEP THE DISCUSSION POLITE AND RESPECTFUL.

Thank you,

- Carol Kaur -
- MT Moderator -

[tellner]

To the Anonymous Coward: If you have to hide and can't even sign your own name you really need to develop just a touch of moral courage. You know who you are. You know what you are. Disagreement is great. Cowardice is despicable. It really is as simple as that.

Shesulsa, you're distorting what he said just a tad and ignoring the meat of the issue for reasons which I plain don't understand.

How do you "check it out" if you aren't allowed to look? He's not allowed to even see what the training is leading to until he's spent several years and hundreds of dollars. If you can't feel and you can't see how can you make an informed decision? To throw it back at the student and say "I'd show him the door" for daring to ask for that proof isn't even close to logical let alone fair. How can he tell if he isn't allowed to gather any sort of evidence?

This isn't "tradition". The real old martial tradition is that you have to be able to defend your reputation one way or another. Back in the bad old days a newcomer could demand to "run the boards" and fight everyone in the school in order of seniority. Fortunately we don't do that any more. The point remains, the burden of proof is on the person making the claim. The claim is "I've got chops. I can teach you to jam." To say that you'll have to wait for years for a chance to even watch people show their skills let alone feel them ridiculous.

When you say "the traditionalists have nothing to prove" you're absolutely, 100% ipso facto wrong. If they're taking your money they're selling you something. If they're selling something there needs to be a way the customer can see if it's real or fantasy. If you want to get less ploddingly literal and go with the honor and traditions of the martial arts it's even worse. The teacher is asking you to stake your life on the unproven thesis that he can fight and teach you to fight. He's asking for the "traditional" (it depends on which tradition) of a student's loyalty which used to be worth something. Once again (and again and again since it bears repeating) the burden is on him, not the student, to provide some sort of bona fides. If he doesn't provide a means of checking it out he's showing total unforgivable disrespect for someone from whom he is demanding trust and loyalty.

Yes, the MMA people have their problems. Sparring too early can lead to problems. But at least the MMA people will say "OK, let's roll. If I can submit you I can submit you. If you can submit me then you can submit me." That's a degree of honesty that a person can appreciate. You know where you stand. You can see and feel. There are results which are objectively and independently verifiable. You can check and see how the coach's stable does in competition. Yes, yes, all the usual caveats and warnings. But it's something anyone can look at as real evidence.

I'm thinking of the very traditional teachers I've studied under.

The wonderful people whom I learned Judo from thirty some years ago had beginners doing randori fairly early on. And everyone trained in the same class.

The Okinawa Te (master teaching certificates direct from Okinawa) guys were always up for sparring. And beginners were encouraged to watch the Black Belts because they would see good form even if they couldn't quite appreciate what was going on.

Sifu Al Dacascos had a couple banners in his back room. They were from very old-style Chinese martial arts schools. In his younger dumber days he'd gone in, made the correct polite challenge, beat everyone from the beginners to the chief instructor and walked out with the school flag. That's how they did it. And that's what a half-breed Chinese-Filipino had to do to get taken seriously.

The Eskrimadors? Oh man! They wouldn't make challenges. That would have been immoral. But they'd have beaten me with sticks if I backed down from one. And they were eager to cross sticks with people in a friendly way so that you could see the quality.

Kendo? Yup. You don't put on armor for a while, but you get to see more advanced students sparring all the time. Same theory as the Okinawans.

My Silat teachers have always been happy to show or let you feel. Remember what I said about Guru Plinck's little old Indonesian grandmother? "But Stevie, can he fight?" My first Silat teacher said from the first day I trained with him "You're welcome to try me any time. But if you try to hurt me I'll hurt you." Let's just say that Brandt is a unique individual and leave it at that ;) With Guru Plinck it isn't like that. But if you want a demonstration he'll arrange one so that you know what you're getting into, how it works and whether it works. Once he let a guy spar anyone in the class. He could do whatever. All we could do was enter, set and trip. First person on the ground for whatever reason lost. The guy went away a believer. Nobody got hurt.

Do you see what I'm getting at? All of these traditions include ways for the student to make an informed decision. Primal Kuen was never offered anything of the sort, just the usual cult of personality, shut up roundeye BS. Maybe the school is fantastic. But the warning signs of a scam are all there. It's not "traditional". It's not fair. It's not honest. At least the MMA guys he's talked to are willing to put their money where their mouths are.

[shesulsa]

Shesulsa, you're distorting what he said just a tad and ignoring the meat of the issue for reasons which I plain don't understand.
Where?


When you say "the traditionalists have nothing to prove" you're absolutely, 100% ipso facto wrong.I didn't say "the traditionalists have nothing to prove" - I said ... and I quote ...

Many instructors of traditional styles feel they don't have anything to prove. This is a statement based upon my impression of the posture of other traditional stylists - whether I agree with it or whether it is fact are not part of my statement.

I won't be drug into the My mucky-muck vs. Your mucky-muck argument. Unrecognizable goo, remember? ;)

I think he should have done his homework first and, since he is no longer comfortable with the "absence of proof" that he should have a conversation with his instructor. I also think there is nothing wrong with waiting to start free sparring or any other kind of randori. When I read your first post, our opinions are more alike than it seems you want to think.

[Lisa]

To the Anonymous Coward: If you have to hide and can't even sign your own name you really need to develop just a touch of moral courage. You know who you are. You know what you are. Disagreement is great. Cowardice is despicable. It really is as simple as that.

Tellner,

If you have issues and concerns regarding reputation abuse please feel free to contact any Admin, Assist. Admin and we will be happy to look into for you.

Now lets return to the original subject.

Thank you

Lisa Deneka
MT Assist. Admin

[jks9199]

As I said -- I'm not really comfortable assessing someone else's teaching methods from a report of a student who's only been training a few months. That's barely long enough to have an idea of what's going on... let alone to really know what the training sequence is. It's very possible that the basic classes start sparring related exercises at 5 months... or that they'll add a beginner sparring class as soon as they have enough students with the experience and skills.

Sparring is more than merely rocking & rolling; sparring should be a method of practice aimed at developing skill in the use of the learned techniques under pressure. That means you've got to have a certain level of skill to free spar! Of course you can do exercises that develop sparring skills before you're ready for free sparring.

In this particular case -- if the student is unhappy with the structure and methods of the school, or the style, or lacks faith in the instructor, they should go elsewhere. It's that simple... But I'm also reminded of a few stories I've read. They share a common thread; I'm going to summarize two of them.

First, there was a lad who went to one of the greatest Noh performers to learn the craft. He spent years learning a single speech, never being allowed to perform it for any one other than his teacher, and never being allowed to learn any other piece. One night, in frustration, he snuck out. He went to an inn, and entered what must have amounted to an impromptu karaoke competition. He won easily... and to great acclaim.

In the other, a student approached a sword master, wanting to learn the sword. He was accepted as a student, and spent a year doing menial chores while the master would attack him at random moments -- but never being allowed to pick up a sword. By the end of it -- the master was unable to surprise him, and unable to strike him... Again, we find a frustrated student running off... And again, we find a frustrated student amazed at how much skill he had developed without knowing when the teacher was teaching!

A good teacher has a method to their instruction, whether they're a traditional martial artist or a MMA coach. They shape it to the student's needs -- even when the student doesn't realize what they need. If the student can't trust the teacher's methods -- they should go elsewhere.

[Rich Parsons]

If anyone joins any club without investigating whether or not it's for them, then it's up to that person to make their own subsequent decisions. If this guy purchased lessons not seeing what these guys can really do, then it's his error.

Since you said he said nothing about donning gear and getting the crap beat out of him, I'll point you to this post by him (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=861199&postcount=11), fourth para. And yes, I would turn him out if he showed repeated and continued impatience at his level of training with an eagerness to learn advanced skills without completing basic and intermediate studies - that's just me. ;)

But does he know what effective WC looks like? He knows that some MMAers kicked his butt - good for him. Does that make what he's doing ineffective? Some seem to think that the willingness to show anything to anybody indicates quality and effectiveness - it doesn't necessarily mean this. So ... who's really running the scam here? ;)

I've seen people chomping at the bit to see that they're paying for effective study have a taste and then become so bored with their level of training they can't think about anything else but three or four levels ahead. So why set him up for failure in this case?

Of course he has a right to know what he's buying - perhaps a discussion of his goals with the instructor and asking, respectfully, about the secrecy of advanced classes would be in order?

I will not engage with you in the MMA vs. TMA argument - it's not even a dead horse anymore, it's an unrecognizable mass of goo.

What I will say, without ego and with honesty, is that I see a lot of people these days who feel that their dollar entitles them to certain knowledge at a certain level when they want it, how they want it. And do you want to know what I think about that? It's bull ****. I'm not required to show ANYbody ANYthing just because they have the money. If I think they demonstrate to me good character, trustworthiness, many of the tenets that I think are important consistently over a fair amount of time such that they may learn deadly techniques, then I'll proceed as I think best. To show anyone with a buck and the willingness to learn how to fight, maim and kill is flat out irresponsible in my opinion. And to me, that's what traditional martial arts are all about.

:asian:


See my post here: http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=861856&postcount=15

I agree that one is not required to teach anyone anything. Responsibility is still required. Now, even if there is trust and later it is broken then at least the instructor can state they stopped teaching once the lack of trust occurred.

[Primal Kuen]

Just to be clear, I have spoken with my instructor on this...and I have never been disrespectful on any level with him or any of his students.

I know perfectly well what the curriculum is in the school, at my level and beyond. There is no contact sparring until Blue sash...which is approx 1.5 years into it. Please do not assume that I am "demanding" or impatient in wanting to learn techniques beyond my level. that is not true.

I do however want to be able to defend myself TO SOME DEGREE after 6 months to a year of training, even if it is a very basic defense. And if this school does not provide the opportunity to practice the application of the principles I am learning...then perhaps this school is not for me. And that's fine, it is his school after all, and it is also my money.

I have spoken to several other WC schools around here and each of them teach the students to apply the teqniques of WC much earlier on; not to mention offer twice the amount of classes per week for the same amount of $. And all levels of students attend the same class without secrecy...which is more to my liking.

Anyway, I thank you all for your input ...this really had me down for a while. I'm not a quitter, and the thought of leaving this school was a hard decision for me. Your input and the input of others has helped me move on ( and not feel bad for doing so) .

Thanks again....

[theletch1]

PK, While I'm sorry for the internal struggle that you've had to go through I am also empathetic to it. I, and many many others here, have been through the same battle with ourselves. Ultimately, it is your path and your path alone to travel and you must do what is in your best interest. In my case I wound up changing to a style that was 189 degrees different from my first one...kempo to aikido and I couldn't be happier. I truly hope that this change will be for the best. At least this time when you were checking out other schools you had a little bit of first hand knowledge regarding what you were looking for. Good luck and please do keep us posted on how your training is going.

[tellner]

Shesulsa, I'll say it again in as many ways as necessary...

He doesn't seem to be doing anything at all wrong. He is asking reasonable answers and getting nothing from his teacher. You're setting a literally impossible standard for him and blaming him for wanting to make sure he's not being scammed while also blaming him for not doing research in advance which he is not allowed to do. That's a number of serious logical contradictions right there. If you would be so kind as to untangle them I'd be obliged.

Further, you've painted ascribed a certain attitude to traditional martial artists. I think I have shown through ample data that this view is not factually correct. It is quite limited and very specific to certain strains of what the late Donn Draeger referred to as "Modern Budo". That is at best a serious distortion of the reality. If you can come up with a counterargument or evidence that would support your contention I'll be all ears.

[onibaku]

tsumaranai ne
if you can't wait go find another class or style
try karate or muay thai
you won't wait months to spar but it still depends on your improvement and the teacher
gambareyo

[shesulsa]

Shesulsa, I'll say it again in as many ways as necessary...

He doesn't seem to be doing anything at all wrong. He is asking reasonable answers and getting nothing from his teacher.
Good - That's what I suggested he do.


You're setting a literally impossible standard for him and blaming him for wanting to make sure he's not being scammed while also blaming him for not doing research in advance which he is not allowed to do.

What "impossible standard"? Where did I "blame him for wanting to make sure he's not being scammed?" I suggested he speak to his instructor about his goals. If he wasn't allowed to do research before he signed up and started training and he signed up and started training anyway ... you're saying this is the instructor's fault? Whether or not you agree with the instructor's policy (I can't say because, again, I do not know enough about WC and won't be forced into an opinion on it) our friend Primal signed up in blind faith apparently. I don't want to insult him, but yes, it is his doing.


That's a number of serious logical contradictions right there. If you would be so kind as to untangle them I'd be obliged.

Clearly we see my statements differently - though I have little doubt you wish to continue to try to drag me into the "TMA is bad" thing and I just won't do it. :)


Further, you've painted ascribed a certain attitude to traditional martial artists. I think I have shown through ample data that this view is not factually correct.

You have? I thought you stated your opinion and personal relation of recounts of stories you've read or heard and a couple of personal experiences. I don't call that "ample data" but ... okay. Again, good for you - I'm glad you found something you feel good about ascribing to. *I* feel good about ascribing to the training I'm involved in. Good for us. And good for Primal because he's made his decision and will move on to a school which will better suit his needs - I think he needed to do that.


It is quite limited and very specific to certain strains of what the late Donn Draeger referred to as "Modern Budo". That is at best a serious distortion of the reality. If you can come up with a counterargument or evidence that would support your contention I'll be all ears.
I'm not sure what part of "I'm not going to get into that argument with you" you don't understand, but ... for the sake of repetition (always a good drill) ... I'm not going to get into that argument with you.

Primal Kuen: As a newer student, a younger color belt, I questioned the purpose of many of the training tools and restrictions my teacher placed upon me. I've been doing this for 10 years now in my current style and have been in the Martial Arts lifestyle for 15+. I can't count how many we've lost because they wanted what they wanted when they wanted it. I also can't count how many people have come into our dojang wanting "evidence" only to walk out holding their wrists, rubbing their shoulders, etc. Some bowed to my teacher when they left - others didn't but those never came back. So, you see, I have all the proof I need ... for me.

Good luck and I do hope you share with us how your new training hall works out.