Wing Chun Kickers

[Spartan]

Hey Guys,
I'm not sure if this topic has been brought up before, but i'd like to know more about the extent of wing chun kicking.

The first thing that comes to mind, is how a wing chunner would deal w/a really strong kicker, such as those found in muay thai? I'm sure an obvious response would be to evade and get inside to trapping range. But what if your unable to get inside on the thai boxer?

Most of the wc kicking that i've seen is low level and seems deflective by nature. Does wc use any powerful kicks? What are the theories? I think i might have heard Randy Williams talk about some more advanced wc kicking concepts that might give a wing chunner an extended range.

I also remember seeing pictures of Bruce Lee in his early days in the US doing some high-flying/impressive kicking. They also said that Lee's kicks were like being hit by a freight train. Was any of this kicking based in wc, or was it due to his exposure to northern Shaolin and training w/ Chuck Norris?

Spartan

[CuongNhuka]

Kicking in Wing Chun is basic, and not impressive to look at.

As for how to deal with a kicker, thats easy. You can modify a Pac Sao (by turning the fingers down, and going hip level instead of chest) to defend against a kick. Or, you could do the same basic idea with a Fuk Sao and catch the kick. This is for low level. The normal Wing Chun blocks work fine at chest level. A high Pac Sao or Fuk Sao work against high kicks.

Keep in mind the defenses that I used for high and lows kicks may require slight modification. A low Pac Sao may need to 'plant' on the hip, instead of going straight. This is do to the fact that most kicks will come in to your side, the alternate is to shift out.

[profesormental]

Greetings.

It is known that Bruce Lee's kicks as they appear later were learned from Hapkido masters (search here in martial talk...).

Wing Chun kicks serve the purpose of bridging the gap, disrupting the attackers base, takedowns, and controlling distance.

As in many Southern Chinese Styles, the legs are primarily used to keep a solid base so that strikes and techniques are powerful.

Depending on who is the instructor in Wing Chun, you will be able to execute powerful, accurate kicks. Also note that many Muai Thay people, as well as high kicking TKD and similar arts people, rarely kick after they are about 35 to 45...

Most have to get hip and knee surgeries...

that is much rarer in Wing Chun... this has to do with anatomical subtleties of kicking than many, due to their athleticism, do not take into account in their technique... yet as they age... they can get hurt.

Since I had a small hip and knee injury... I've had to take these into account, because if I don't kick right, I feel it...

Yet after the injuries my kicking power has improved tremendously to the amazement of my students... and it's getting even better!

It is the result of optimizing anatomical alignment of the kicks before and after impact.

So to answer your question... yes, Wing Chun has powerful kicks, yet they are not all designed for destruction directly, as this would avoid some of the Wing Chun principles for proper structure and control of your body vs. full commitment to an action that may leave you completely misaligned.

Yet there are kicks that can double you over and even flip you...

Also, if I fight someone and am in kicking range... we're not really fighting yet (we're physically disengaged)... so we may be able to verbally diffuse the situation... or run to get more advantage or safer...

If not, then in we would have to go to fight. Here, the individuals training would be a greater factor than the skill in kicking.

Does that make sense?

Good question. I enjoyed writing an answer.

Juan M. Mercado

[KamonGuy2]

A lot of people are taught to deal with kicks through the use of gum sao or pak sao. This is risky.

It is possible to get away with this if you are up against low skill level martial artists who use long range kicks, but again there is still a risk that you will misjudge the position of the kick and end up breaking your wrist or fingers.

I tend to use chi gerk (sticky legs) by meeting the leg before it has gathered full momentum and then absorb the kick. When I tried kicking Master Chan, he used this and even though I am bigger than him, he managed to absorb the energy.

If you are up against a talented kicker, then the best solution is to close distance before they can use their kicks.
When I practice against my TKD training partners they hate being shut down

In streetfights, think how quickly space closes.
In all honesty the only time I have seen a kick in a real fight has been when one person has been knocked over and the other person has kicked him in.

As Master Chan says, once you get to about 25 years of age, it becomes extremely difficult to train long range kicking (ie a 50 year old will have trouble doing the splits)

[graychuan]

A lot of people are taught to deal with kicks through the use of gum sao or pak sao. This is risky.

It is possible to get away with this if you are up against low skill level martial artists who use long range kicks, but again there is still a risk that you will misjudge the position of the kick and end up breaking your wrist or fingers.

I tend to use chi gerk (sticky legs) by meeting the leg before it has gathered full momentum and then absorb the kick. When I tried kicking Master Chan, he used this and even though I am bigger than him, he managed to absorb the energy.

If you are up against a talented kicker, then the best solution is to close distance before they can use their kicks.
When I practice against my TKD training partners they hate being shut down

In streetfights, think how quickly space closes.
In all honesty the only time I have seen a kick in a real fight has been when one person has been knocked over and the other person has kicked him in.

As Master Chan says, once you get to about 25 years of age, it becomes extremely difficult to train long range kicking (ie a 50 year old will have trouble doing the splits)

I completely agree.
~Cg~

[Si-Je]

My favorite, Heel Kick!
(The lazy way to deflect a strong kicker :) )

Bong girk and yap girk are really cool too (hope that's the correct spelling) along with "sticky legs" stratagies.
Since I used to be a very strong kicker (until my lower back injury, aquired when constantily lifting heavy objects at work) I favor heel kicking the offending leg. Kind of an "intercepting leg" philosophy. lol!
The harder they kick the more they are hurt, and stepping into the opponent after stopping the kick completes the disruption of their balance. If you really want to get mean, you can heel kick the kicking leg then side kick the standing leg. Game over.
This being my favorite kick in an offensive manner too, for it is extremely powerful, doesn't telegraph, and fast on the draw.

Hook kick is effective as well, a bit similar to a Mui Tai leg attack. But there are alot of fun stuff to be done other than striking with this kick too. i.e. Hooking the standing or kicking leg, but that my fall in the category of "sticky legs too". But still neat technique.

Garn Sau is great too. If your fast enough to step in and keep going forward through the opponent, and pretty fun too. But not without a riskiness factor. I kinda think of it as an "oh crap" resort, in the reguard that the kicking opponent was faster than I thought and didn't get my heel or Hook kick up in time to deflect, or they kicked higher than I read.

Forward, forward, forward!! No matter what.

But to compare WC/WT kicking to other kicking arts would do injustice to both. Each are designed for different purposes in mind. And come from drastically different principles of thought in relation to fighting and defense.

As for Brucey, I read he starting kicking high after doing a movie with Chuck Norris (forgot the name of the movie, been a long time since I've seen it) and incorporated the ideal in JKD to transend and adapt as a martial artist. But I see alot of WC "concept" in his style of kicking, which can really be applied to any aspect of martial arts.

[CuongNhuka]

A lot of people are taught to deal with kicks through the use of gum sao or pak sao. This is risky.

I've been in sparring matches with people who are 'talented kickers', and used Pak Sao or Fuk Sao, and they work very well. By the way, sparring in Cuong Nhu is basicly full contact.

[Changhfy]

One thing I would have to say stemming both from a Wing Chun background as well as Bei Shaolin, TKD, Karate etc...

Its important to control and destroy the opponents center line.
Which is more a focal point of control.

There have been times that a strong kicker has thrown kicks at me and I utilized the Mo Ying Gerk at the Center reference points and was able to disrupt the opponents equilibrium and gain the upper hand in the fight.

But the Gerk Faat are incredibly viable for the Wing Chun syllabus.

The Mo Ying Gerk are important as well but its more important to understand the concepts behind them.

Chi Gerk as what was mentioned before is definitely a great way to utilize the Gerk Faat.


take care,

[onibaku]

I think a wing chun user can defeat a strong kicker like muay thai users. that depends on his training.


It's not the art, its the artist

[KamonGuy2]

I've been in sparring matches with people who are 'talented kickers', and used Pak Sao or Fuk Sao, and they work very well. By the way, sparring in Cuong Nhu is basicly full contact.

I'm sorry to disagree, but two scenarios pop up here
You were either:
a) sparring light contact with minimal contact
b) sparring with a very poor kicker

If you're telling me that you could go and use just guan sao and pak sao against a MT guy or TKD guy then you need to try it and video it or something

Pak sao and guan sao can be powerful, but you would seriously be damaging your hands if you're using it this way

[Si-Je]

why not?

If your quick enough, and as long as you keep going forward. Throw a tan sau in there after gan sau under the leg and shoot up and forward with it. This will make a kicker fall backwards, hard.

Remember, strong kicks are great, but your left standing on one leg when you kick. Especially the higher you kick, the more you risk balance and stability.

Akido executes a few moves in a similar manner, they just redirect in small circles to uproot the opponent.

Also realize that when you kick your supremely committed, especially high kicks. This is a weakness in any good kick or for any good kicker. You use combos to re-direct your kicking inertia and follow up with another quick attack (kick) if you miss the opponent, but if you jump in there and take away their inertia and leg, then they have nowhere to go, except down.
Once again, I think of this as an "oh crap their closer and faster than I thought" move. You feel when you do this, to anticipate and plan to do it when sparring a really good kicker is dangerous. If it's available, then do it, if not heel kick the offending leg. But whatever you do, always go forward. ;)

[KamonGuy2]

It appears that people on here have not been training with people from other arts. Whenever you block or parry a kick using either an arm or leg, the person doesn't leave his leg there! They will pull back immediatley

A guan sao is a strong structure, but if a TKD or MT practitioner steps back and kicks you, you cannot use your hands

If you are still adamant that you can, my advice is to go to a local karate, TKD or MT school and ask for people to try this out on you

[Si-Je]

Yes darlin'.
I studied Tang Soo Do for three years as a kiddo. And was a very strong kicker. I'm very familiar with the mindset and stratagy of a kicker.
Since I started taking WC I've trained with many different stylists, Karate, Tae Kwon Do, Jeet Kung Do, Savate, Zipota, BJJ, MMA, etc.

I suggest that you train this move on mats so both parties can go full force without too much concern. It works, they can pull back all they want while kicking, as long as you keep going forward this it will still work. ;)

[CuongNhuka]

I'm sorry to disagree, but two scenarios pop up here
You were either:
a) sparring light contact with minimal contact
b) sparring with a very poor kicker

If you're telling me that you could go and use just guan sao and pak sao against a MT guy or TKD guy then you need to try it and video it or something

Pak sao and guan sao can be powerful, but you would seriously be damaging your hands if you're using it this way

Cuong Nhu sparring is bascily full contact, and she is an upper rank in Cuong Nhu, and a Black Belt in Tae Kwon Do. All you have to do is shift, step in, and Pac the shin.

[CuongNhuka]

If you are still adamant that you can, my advice is to go to a local karate, TKD or MT school and ask for people to try this out on you

Again, done that.

By the way, if they can hit you, but you cann't block that's your fault. If they are within the range to hit you, you can block it. If they step back or not.

[KamonGuy2]

I am sorry, but I just don't think that the people kicking you are very good kickers. No matter how much force the body can produce, you are still blocking bone with bone. The bones in the wrist would not handle a powerful kick from a good fighter

That is why you never see the UFC fighters block kicks with their hands

If you have any videos or photos of you blocking kicks, I would be interested to see them

[Si-Je]

You don't actually "block" a kick with your hands or arm. It's a deflection, and angle of attack more than a block. If you blocked a kick with the forearm, wrist or hand you'd get a broken arm.
You re-direct the power of their kick, like a shiver with the arms and such. Absorbing the force and making it go elsewhere from your body.
Plus shooting in, going forward with the whole body re-inforces your arms, backs up your structure. Like a bridge or a building. You must have a structure that is re-inforced to hold weight, or "power".

What's really freaky, is stepping in humbo step directly into the kick. Still freaks me out! I'm a pretty good kicker and shooting straight into a side kick or roundhouse is unnerving.
But with the humbo stepping your leg deflects the kicking leg with your leg, hip and entire body. All it is really is stance and stepping with forward force. Still takes alot of getting used to.
Oh course, backed up with chain punching and you've taken a kickers space and ability to kick you.
This took me a really long time to get the hang of coming from a strong kicking background. I had to let go of what I thought I knew to be "fact" when it came to attack and defense.

[marcus_p]

Hi Si-Je, I don't know what you mean by "...like a shiver with the arms and such." Can you please post or point out a clip of it being trained?

Spartan, some instructors have different opinions on Wing Chun Kicks. I don't know who is correct, but must keep an open mind to see what's out there. In my school, we are taught that there are 8 kicks in Wing Chun classified by how they they generate power. There are exercises, and wooden devices designed to aid in the development of these kicks, the tri-poles among them.

You can see examples of these kicks in our school's videos on youTUBE (http://youtube.com/user/wingchunnyc). Here is one circle training where the defender employs some of the kicks in his practice (http://youtube.com/watch?v=kGkBns_98yA). These clips are for your consideration, to show how we approach the art.

/Marcus

[Spartan]

Sweet clips dude. Thanks Marcus.

[CuongNhuka]

I am sorry, but I just don't think that the people kicking you are very good kickers. No matter how much force the body can produce, you are still blocking bone with bone. The bones in the wrist would not handle a powerful kick from a good fighter

That is why you never see the UFC fighters block kicks with their hands

If you have any videos or photos of you blocking kicks, I would be interested to see them

Two thoughts that come to mind. 1, You block a punch 'bone to bone', so isn't blocking as a concept a bad idea?

2, You never see Wing Chun in UFC. So, if blocking with your hands is a bad idea, wouldn't that mean you just said that training in Wing Chun is a bad idea?

Just thoughts

[KamonGuy2]

Two thoughts that come to mind. 1, You block a punch 'bone to bone', so isn't blocking as a concept a bad idea?

2, You never see Wing Chun in UFC. So, if blocking with your hands is a bad idea, wouldn't that mean you just said that training in Wing Chun is a bad idea?

Just thoughts
1. No. Some blocks are acceptable. If someone gives you an uppercut, you can block with guan sao as it has dominant energy.
A kick usually contains power at the end (the foot) and you can sometimes intercept by blocking the knee/thigh, which is what I thought you were doing. You have since stated that you use guan sao against the persons foot, where the full blast of the kick is. Any block where you are attempting to stop a larger force coming in with a smaller bone is a bad idea. Yet if you change either the force of the attack coming in or the size of the bone you are blocking with, blocks can be useful

2. Not really understanding your logic. Many UFC fighters have trained in wing chun and some good MMA fighters started out with wing chun.
The wing chun I train never blocks kicks with hands, and to be honest, any wing chun that teaches you that should not be trained

I appreciate SiJe's post which describes the stopping of kicks as deflections rather than blocks. But Cuong you have said that you use guan sao which is not really a deflection

[CuongNhuka]

2. Not really understanding your logic. Many UFC fighters have trained in wing chun and some good MMA fighters started out with wing chun.
....
But Cuong you have said that you use guan sao which is not really a deflection

Really? I don't recall hearing Wing Chun announced as the style of any of the fighters in (say) the UFC, PRIDE, K1, so on. Maybe in local associations, but I've never heard of a Wing Chun player in the more popular groups.

When did I say Guan Sao? How can I say "use technique X" when I'm not even completely sure what technique X is? I'm pretty sure I know what you're talking about, and if so, I didn't say to use that tech.

[KamonGuy2]

Really? I don't recall hearing Wing Chun announced as the style of any of the fighters in (say) the UFC, PRIDE, K1, so on. Maybe in local associations, but I've never heard of a Wing Chun player in the more popular groups.

When did I say Guan Sao? How can I say "use technique X" when I'm not even completely sure what technique X is? I'm pretty sure I know what you're talking about, and if so, I didn't say to use that tech.

It was that the discussion was turning to hand techniques against a foot, and the only one I have ever seen work against a fairly good kicker was a guan sao.

Pak sao and fuk sao against a kick is just silly. And one of the fundamentals of wing chun is lower half vs. lower half and upper half vs. upper half

As for the UFC fighters, most of them do not mention wing chun due to its bad reputation in cage fighting. Although there have been a couple of good fighters mention doing it

Sifu Kevin Chan, Sifu Alan Orr both have very heavy involvement in MMA. I can't speak for Orr as I do not know him that well, but Kevin Chan has judged UFC events and helped train fighters for the UFC

[CuongNhuka]

Pak sao and fuk sao against a kick is just silly.

-sighs and moves on-

[KamonGuy2]

-sighs and moves on-
Don't say I didn't warn ya

[barnaby]

our school teaches that the hand assists the foot, not the other way around, and that every step is a kick. just food for thought if you've never heard those little phrases.

any hand gesture we as Wing Chun practitioners know might find its place against a kick -- depending on the position. silly is looking at the vast numbers of possibilities in fighting and saying one of the limited numbers of ways of moving should never be done in some circumstance. it just depends.

I heard a rumor that Bruce Lee felt the need to send Yip Man a large sum of money due to the guilt he felt for cross training for these sorts of kicks mentioned, and seen in his films. Don't care how true it is, just think it's a funny story.

[Spartan]

So where exactly did Bruce Lee's powerful side kick (the one that he demonstrated at Ed Parker's karate expo), come from?

[zDom]

So where exactly did Bruce Lee's powerful side kick (the one that he demonstrated at Ed Parker's karate expo), come from?

It is obviously a Korean side kick. Probably from his exposure to hapkido kicking.

[Si-Je]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spartan http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=908224#post908224)
So where exactly did Bruce Lee's powerful side kick (the one that he demonstrated at Ed Parker's karate expo), come from?

It is obviously a Korean side kick. Probably from his exposure to hapkido kicking.

I would think that would really be the charging WC side kick. That's what I've been taught.

There seems to be alot of confusion with the deflection of kicks. What we do is, ironically, don't worry about the kick.

You either humbo step into the kicking leg deflecting and advancing to take away the power of the kick. I.E. by the time the kick is launched your theigh, hip, and body is well past the knee and seeking body to body contact with the kicker. Very effective for simply ending your opponent on the floor since at this time they are balenced on one leg only. Of, course remember your forward force!

"Shivering" the leg as I say, for lack of a better word really, I'm meaning that instead of "blocking" shin to shin say as in muy tai, you have your leg at a bit of a 45 degree angle as you make contact with the kicking leg as you move forward into the opponent. as you close the distance much like humbo stepping, you take away the power of the kick and the balance of the opponent.

Although, my favorite, because I'm just lazy, :) is simply heel kicking the opponent's kicking leg. Much like a door stopper, you jam them pretty good. Usually, if their putting alot of force into the kick, they fall or stumble, plus it just hurts to have a heel jammed into your theigh!
Of course you kick then becomes your step as you still close the distance to finish your attacker.

Just some examples of deflecting, or negating a kick with WC/WT kicking.
Let the legs take care of the legs, and the hands take care of the hands. ;)
If you want to get fancy, or if you just don't get in fast enough, then by all means use gan sau. It looks cool, and looks like it hurts to get dumped on your butt as well.

Missed you guys. We've lost our computer, and have limited access to one these days. Will stop by to holler at ya'll when I can.

[matsu]

this is a fascinating thread.
i am a beginner and i am yet to learn kicks per say,so i am reading with interest.
matsu

[qwksilver61]

My Two cents;I came from a kicking school, Kwon Jae Hwa's Traditional Tae Kwon Do,human anatomy,resuscitation,no padding no tag you're it matches,no handing out belts like it was going out of style,very disciplined Tae Kwon Do.Yes ,the shoulder does drop before the delivery of a kick.I used to win matches by executing an outside crescent kick and quickly converting it to a side kick to the ribs,also I had tremendous speed.It worked then,until I met Wing Tsun.Nearly all of my kicks were stopped before my foot left the ground,the gap was quickly closed,leg pinned,scooped up,or re-directed (not shin on shin) anything higher than the waist was a waste (total commitment)
Wing Tsun has taught me; not to telegraph (drop shoulder)not to hesitate, close the gap as quickly as possible,and to utilize three limbs at once if need be.Of course all of this depends on your skill level.Remember Muy Thai people train hard,Wing Tsunners should also train hard(ie;bag work).If you are not, then you are not "fighting fit" train like you mean it!

[JustAVisitor]

I do Wing Chun. Tons of kicks in my experience/practice... I am really surprised in reading that there are WC practitioners that only do low kicks. My practice involves sweeps to jumps, passing stand-up kicks of all heights, angles and directions. Some easy to block, absorb or deviate... others nasty and treatorous... Except for jumped kicks, kicks must be 'well grounded' and they appply short distance efficiency WC principle. Balance is key.
Against Muy Thai, i found that stiking my legs to the opponent ones and blocking with elbows were good defense. Essential to protection are also breathing techniques and good energy belt (so to speak... for whatever it is...).

[mook jong man]

i am also a wing chun guy and i agree with what the earlier guy said about stepping in. also i like to fire off a medium heel kick straight to the groin as soon as i see that shoulder move or if i am too slow bring my knee up on the centerline to the full guard position. i come from sigung tsui seung tins lineage where all kicks are below the waist.

[matsu]

humbo step???:shrug:

can someone educate me pleeze?

matsu

[mook jong man]

sorry mate i don't know what a humbo step is. the wing chun system i come from we fight square on and the only methods i am aware of is stepping straight in or side stepping at a 45 degree angle i would like to know too what a humbo step is.

[qwksilver61]

Humbo? Hambo! stepping on the hambone! I get it! Ha!Ha! (bad humor)

[KamonGuy2]

I think he meant huen bo, or circle step

It sounds a bit like humbo (sort of).

[qwksilver61]

Huen bo,rarely seen by some,works pretty good in close quarters...has anyone ever had to use this technique?

[mook jong man]

qwksilver61 is that the circleing step in the bil gee form ? where you can step behind the opponents front leg, sweep and elbow strike at the same time ?

[qwksilver61]

I know what it is,I wondered whether or not anyone has had to use this in a real fight.like for instance the side pinning arms,just a question.

[mook jong man]

Im not saying you dont know what it is. Im saying im not sure what it is.

[qwksilver61]

help anybody?.......

[KamonGuy2]

The trouble is that on the street, leg movement becomes less subtle

Huen bo is great for closing distance in a spar, because your opponent cannot judge your movement

I have used this in a real fight, but in a less subtle way than when we practice in class. I did a nice one once where I used huen bo with po pai to push a guy into a bush

The huen bo done in bil jee comes back on itself. Huen bo is more of a movement (like arrow walk / bil ma)

[brocklee]

The huen bo done in bil jee comes back on itself. Huen bo is more of a movement (like arrow walk / bil ma)

Dude, you've had some pretty great information to pass down. This is a very accurate statement.

[KamonGuy2]

Always a pleasure. It is hard describing things over a forum, but I'm doing some filming at the moment to capture formwork and movements.

If people want a copy of the DVD, let me know

Its not exactly at the level of the likes of Alan Gibson, Austin Goh, James Sinclair etc, but it is something a bit diferent

[matsu]

count me...... i,m in!!

matsu

[chisauking]

Original questions:

Hey Guys,
I'm not sure if this topic has been brought up before, but i'd like to know more about the extent of wing chun kicking.

The first thing that comes to mind, is how a wing chunner would deal w/a really strong kicker, such as those found in muay thai? I'm sure an obvious response would be to evade and get inside to trapping range. But what if your unable to get inside on the thai boxer?

csk: Don't face the force head on....better to not let the kicker kick in the first place.

Most of the wc kicking that i've seen is low level and seems deflective by nature. Does wc use any powerful kicks? What are the theories? I think i might have heard Randy Williams talk about some more advanced wc kicking concepts that might give a wing chunner an extended range.

csk: If being efficient & effective by cutting out all the 'fancy' stuff -- like jumping up and spinning 6 times before kicking, or lifting your leg above your head and letting it drop back down -- is considered 'basic', then I guess wing chun kicks are basic.

I also remember seeing pictures of Bruce Lee in his early days in the US doing some high-flying/impressive kicking. They also said that Lee's kicks were like being hit by a freight train. Was any of this kicking based in wc, or was it due to his exposure to northern Shaolin and training w/ Chuck Norris?

csk: I believe Lee's kicks were influenced by Jhoon Rhee(SP?)

Truth is, wing chun's hands are so effective, we don't really have a chance to 'show off' our kicking.

[brocklee]

Original questions:

Hey Guys,
I'm not sure if this topic has been brought up before, but i'd like to know more about the extent of wing chun kicking.

The first thing that comes to mind, is how a wing chunner would deal w/a really strong kicker, such as those found in muay thai? I'm sure an obvious response would be to evade and get inside to trapping range. But what if your unable to get inside on the thai boxer?

csk: Don't face the force head on....better to not let the kicker kick in the first place.

Most of the wc kicking that i've seen is low level and seems deflective by nature. Does wc use any powerful kicks? What are the theories? I think i might have heard Randy Williams talk about some more advanced wc kicking concepts that might give a wing chunner an extended range.

csk: If being efficient & effective by cutting out all the 'fancy' stuff -- like jumping up and spinning 6 times before kicking, or lifting your leg above your head and letting it drop back down -- is considered 'basic', then I guess wing chun kicks are basic.

I also remember seeing pictures of Bruce Lee in his early days in the US doing some high-flying/impressive kicking. They also said that Lee's kicks were like being hit by a freight train. Was any of this kicking based in wc, or was it due to his exposure to northern Shaolin and training w/ Chuck Norris?

csk: I believe Lee's kicks were influenced by Jhoon Rhee(SP?)

Truth is, wing chun's hands are so effective, we don't really have a chance to 'show off' our kicking.

I haven't seen you on these boards before but everything I've read so far from you is correct. We're not a flowery bunch of peeps, but we get the job done in the most efficient manner as possible.

[chisauking]

Hiya, Broclee:

I haven't posted on this forum before....but because I've posted one of my sifu's seminar details here, I feel it's only right to at least contribute a little. I'm not into forums much nowadays because it's very difficult to convey your ideas\concepts over in a way people can accept due to the limitations of the medium. However, if people want to meet up, then I'm more than happy.

BTW, my skills are nothing more than average, so what little I input is most likely wrong anyway.

happy training.

[brocklee]

Hiya, Broclee:

I haven't posted on this forum before....but because I've posted one of my sifu's seminar details here, I feel it's only right to at least contribute a little. I'm not into forums much nowadays because it's very difficult to convey your ideas\concepts over in a way people can accept due to the limitations of the medium. However, if people want to meet up, then I'm more than happy.

BTW, my skills are nothing more than average, so what little I input is most likely wrong anyway.

happy training.

Very wise and humble. We all know there is no "average" in wc ;)

[KamonGuy2]

Very wise and humble. We all know there is no "average" in wc ;)
You haven't seen me yet!! Very average!

It all comes down to context. Some people are average martial artists in their own schools but exceptional compared to other schools

But at the end of the day we train for ourselves.

As a friend once told me - It doesn't matter if I can speak French better than one of my friends, as long as I achieve what I learnt it for and a French person understands me!!!

There is always someone better out there (although I have yet to find them - joke)

[Si-Je]

Hiya again.

Humbo (however it's spelled) is just a term for "half-circle" stepping in advanced stance (one leg forward).
Use it kind of like stepping around a pole in the ground. That same motion you can use to sort of step around a kick, leg, cancle out the opponent's stance i.e. lock up the legs.

I really wouln't want to fight a big tough mui tai fighter, but if I had to for some insane reason, I'd much prefer to angle around the brutal strength of their kicking leg, "wedge" my stepping leg between their stance to keep them from kicking again and hopefully upsett their balance.
That gets me close enough where I can strike with greater effectiveness while cancelling out his/her power.
Then you can play with elbow striking, head and neck throws, chops whatever.

This can also be used to turn your opponents stance where their centerline is NOT facing you anymore, giving you the advantage of their side or back. (you keep your bodys centerline facing the opponent) so you can easily strike, while they have to change their entire body position before they can strike or kick you. This gives someone smaller more of a "fighting" chance to get some good hits in vital areas before the stronger attacker can collect their fighting stratagy.

As for power in WC kicking. My favorite is heel kick, you can kick like a mule with that kick. All the more reason to kick the knee. Big guys usually have bad knees. ;)
Plus, this will bring a taller opponents head closer to my chest so I can get full power in striking. (I really can't elbow my hubbie in the head until I give a good stomp kick or heel kick because he's a full foot taller than me.) So you chop them down with your WC kicking. This can be done with Hook kick too. (although I like litterally "hooking" the kicking or standing leg of the opponent if I'm able).

Just some ideas for use of the WC kicks. Get creative. :)

[brocklee]

Hiya again.

Humbo (however it's spelled) is just a term for "half-circle" stepping in advanced stance (one leg forward).
Use it kind of like stepping around a pole in the ground. That same motion you can use to sort of step around a kick, leg, cancle out the opponent's stance i.e. lock up the legs.

I really wouln't want to fight a big tough mui tai fighter, but if I had to for some insane reason, I'd much prefer to angle around the brutal strength of their kicking leg, "wedge" my stepping leg between their stance to keep them from kicking again and hopefully upsett their balance.
That gets me close enough where I can strike with greater effectiveness while cancelling out his/her power.
Then you can play with elbow striking, head and neck throws, chops whatever.

This can also be used to turn your opponents stance where their centerline is NOT facing you anymore, giving you the advantage of their side or back. (you keep your bodys centerline facing the opponent) so you can easily strike, while they have to change their entire body position before they can strike or kick you. This gives someone smaller more of a "fighting" chance to get some good hits in vital areas before the stronger attacker can collect their fighting stratagy.

As for power in WC kicking. My favorite is heel kick, you can kick like a mule with that kick. All the more reason to kick the knee. Big guys usually have bad knees. ;)
Plus, this will bring a taller opponents head closer to my chest so I can get full power in striking. (I really can't elbow my hubbie in the head until I give a good stomp kick or heel kick because he's a full foot taller than me.) So you chop them down with your WC kicking. This can be done with Hook kick too. (although I like litterally "hooking" the kicking or standing leg of the opponent if I'm able).

Just some ideas for use of the WC kicks. Get creative. :)

Yer always so informative. And I love how you always remind us that you're shorter then most your opponents and bringing them down to your level is always a plus ;)

[Si-Je]

I do bring that up alot, don't I? lol!
I'm teeny. ;)
You tend to have a different perspective from down here.
So for me the kicking has special importance. It evens the odds a bit for me when facing well, just about everyone elese around is bigger than me! heheh, even other women.