Mitose Forms

[Samurai]

What forms did James M. Mitose teach?
I think I heard that he only taught the Naihanchi forms.

Question Two: Has anyone heard of a form called Enn No Gyo Kata? There is a video tape on Ebay that teaches this form.

Thanks
Jeremy Bays

[Doc]

Originally posted by Samurai
What forms did James M. Mitose teach?
I think I heard that he only taught the Naihanchi forms.

Question Two: Has anyone heard of a form called Enn No Gyo Kata? There is a video tape on Ebay that teaches this form.

Thanks
Jeremy Bays
It is my understanding from conversations with Ed Parker, that mitose didn't teach any forms
(or much else).
That's all I know.

[cassidy]

Mitose did teach , just not much parkers kempo. He taught kajukembo to quite a few people. And promoted them along with emperado.

[Kenpomachine]

Are you refering to the Mitose who brought kenpo/kempo to Hawai? He was a senior to Parker, and that prior to the development of a Parker Kenpo. But that was not the question...

[bart]

Hey,

When I studied Kosho, our teacher Bruce Juchnik, taught that Mitose did teach forms. Specifically he said, or at least my notes say, that he taught the juni ippo, naihanchi, pinan, neko buto forms along with a jo staff set and some sword forms. I don't know what they are though. There's another one called tensho, but I think that's just a manner of doing the forms. This was all back in 1990 though.

[Doc]

Originally posted by Kenpomachine
Are you refering to the Mitose who brought kenpo/kempo to Hawai? He was a senior to Parker, and that prior to the development of a Parker Kenpo. But that was not the question...

There are many who feel that Mitose brought nothing and his lineage is at the least suspect. It also pre-supposes that Chow was sitting around waiting for Mitose to show up. Mitose was not a senior to Parker nor was he Parker's instructor, never "taught" Parker, and not a part of the Parker lineage., per Ed Parker himself. "Mitose showed me nothing..." Ed parker stated in an interview for Karate Illustrasted Magazine.

Because of the so-called collaboration it could be argued Mitose was in Chow's lineage, (and in defferance to the Tracy's was accepted by Parker) but even that depends on who you talk to. Chow studied and collaborated with many in the islands and it was refelcted in his diverse teaching.

The one thing that is clear and documented is that Mitose was a criminal and big time "con" man who was arrested for everything from rape, to his many victimizations and intimidations of the elderly, and who ultimately died in prison a convicted murderer.

Many feel his martial arts credentials were suspect and no one has ever found a documented connection to Mitose anywhere outside of Hawaii.

Although Chow taught Chaun fa forms briefly, he ultimately abandoned them in favor of his "reality" approach to so-called techniques, which in turn inspired Ed Parker to create his self defense system, and ultimately his commercial version of Kenpo that is most prominent today.

[Dave Simmons]

Mitose was in control of Chow. Chow also worked for Mitose. Lisa Chung who was the only female student of the original Hawaii Group indicated that "Willie" Chow would become extremely nervous when Mitose was present . Mitose was the man in charge in the orginal group according to those who were there.

Parker was Chow student etc. etc.

Dave Simmons
http://www.mnkenpo.com

[WilliamTLear]

Originally posted by Doc
There are many who feel that Mitose brought nothing and his lineage is at the least suspect. It also pre-supposes that Chow was sitting around waiting for Mitose to show up. Mitose was not a senior to Parker nor was he Parker's instructor, never "taught" Parker, and not a part of the Parker lineage., per Ed Parker himself. "Mitose showed me nothing..." Ed parker stated in an interview for Karate Illustrasted Magazine.

Because of the so-called collaboration it could be argued Mitose was in Chow's lineage, (and in defferance to the Tracy's was accepted by Parker) but even that depends on who you talk to. Chow studied and collaborated with many in the islands and it was refelcted in his diverse teaching.

The one thing that is clear and documented is that Mitose was a criminal and big time "con" man who was arrested for everything from rape, to his many victimizations and intimidations of the elderly, and who ultimately died in prison a convicted murderer.

Many feel his martial arts credentials were suspect and no one has ever found a documented connection to Mitose anywhere outside of Hawaii.

Although Chow taught Chaun fa forms briefly, he ultimately abandoned them in favor of his "reality" approach to so-called techniques, which in turn inspired Ed Parker to create his self defense system, and ultimately his commercial version of Kenpo that is most prominent today.

Mr. Chapel... your account of Mitose is 100% in line with what everyone has ever told me about him.

Why do Kenpoists of Tracy lineage seemingly revere this man so much? I've heard nothing but bad and embarrassing things about him.

Sincerely,
Billy Lear :asian:

[Doc]

Originally posted by Dave Simmons
Mitose was in control of Chow. Chow also worked for Mitose. Lisa Chung who was the only female student of the original Hawaii Group indicated that "Willie" Chow would become extremely nervous when Mitose was present . Mitose was the man in charge in the orginal group according to those who were there.

Parker was Chow student etc. etc.

Dave Simmons
http://www.mnkenpo.com
I have have heard many things but never had I heard of Chow being "nervous" or intimadated by anyone, especially Mitose. In fact as the story goes, Mitose would go from school to school to intimidate people to 'come under him." Parker said that when he threatened to come back and kill Chow if he didn't comply, Chow reportedly said "come on I'll be waiting for you." Only when Mitose backed down did the collaboration begin later with mutual respect.

From a logic perspective, why would Chow feel a reason to be "nervous" in Mitose's precense when Chow's rep was as a take all comers "kick ass" nicknamed Thunderbolt for his legeandary island prowess as a fighter, and having studied with many on the islands including extensive jiu-jitsu and matwork from Henry Okazaki who respected Chow immensely.

I've never heard anyone speak of Mitose's skills and in fact having seen him myself along with other Parker black belts, what he displayed was less than mediocre and pure nonsense. This confirmed Ed Parker's own assessment and perception of Mitose's so-called skills.

Yes Mitose had a rep but it wasn't as a fighter, whereas Chow by all acounts was a legend.

The only people who have ever given credence to Mitose as a Martial artist are his own people who never trained with him physically (because he was incarcerated), and Al Tracy who went through extensive efforts to switch his lineage to Mitose and therefore had to for his own credibility. This supported by the Tracy "black sheep" Will Tracy hinself. In fact you cannot find any reference to "Kosho-Ryu" at all until Mitose came to the mainland.

No one ever thought of Mitose as a "kickass" but they were intimidated by his "black assasin" black chauffeurs that he threatened people with (who were unaware of his threats ).

Al and I go way back, and although he may not admit it, he knows I know the drill. Frankly Al really never needed Mitose anyway. What he did on his own in Kenpo is huge, and I submit that Tracy Eclipsed anything that Mitose might have done, over 30 years ago creating the most successful model of commercial schools ever in the histroy of the martial arts.

Obviously this is a debate that can go on because many have tied their lineage to Mitose. But Mitose is not in my or my instructors lineage and in my opinion, Al Tracy forgot more than Mitose ever knew for what that's work. That's it for me.

[kenmpoka]

First off, I have to say that I consider Doc to be a GREAT and knowledgeable teacher, be it techniques or history. Having said that, I do not agree with his opinions in regards to Mr. Mitose, specially 20-25 years prior to moving to the mainland. He was the most senior Kenpo/Kempo instructor in the islands and in fact the originator of all that what we now know as Kenpo or Kempo.The seed of all this mess was planted by him. Contrary to the recent posts, he was well respected among his contemporaries until in my opinion,he got greedy and corrupt. Mr. Chow did in fact study with Mr. Mitose in his brand of Kenpo Jujutsu later renamed Kosho Ryu Kempo. It is generally accepted that Mr. Chow had some knowledge of Chuan Fa and Jujutsu learned fom his older brothers, students of Okazaki Sensei. These facts have been confirmed By Sig Kufferath(?sp), deceased, The inheritor of Danzan Ryu Jujutsu and Mr. Chow's own brother that was one of the top seniors of Danzan Ryu and Kosho Ryu Kempo. Others like Sijo Emperado the founder of Kajukenbo have also confirmed the relationship between the men, as teacher and student.Btw, Mr. Emperado is himself a rank holder of Mr. Mitose and his teaching license was originally issued by Mr. Mitose. Mr. Chow continued evolving his ideas were as Mitose pursued other things that got him in trouble.

As far as the lineage Of SGM Parker goes, in my opinion like others in Kenpo/Kempo world, like it or not fall under Mr. Mitose. Just like Tode Sakugawa of Okinawa that taught Sokon Matsumura, who in turn taught Itosu and the rest followed. Now Itosu did not study with Sakugawa but with his student, and that is how the lineage is established.

As far as the katas in Kosho Ryu go, originally the system was taught as self defense only using techiques as means. One form was thought by Mr. Mitose, Naihanchi (Tekki). Thomas Young the most senior student of Mitose, with his permission brought over some forms from Shorin Ryu and Kyokushin (influence of bobby lowe). These were the Pinan forms and over the years others followed. Mr.Juchnik, one of the heads of the two Kosho organizations, has also devised and added to the system over the years.

If one looks carefully in the copy of Kenpo Jiujitsu of Mitose, you will see the BASE of tehniques such as twirling wings, crossing talon and many others.

Sincerely with all my respects (truly) to Doc and others.


:asian:

[John Bishop]

Well there's a whole lot of truth in both Doc. Chapel, and Kemnpoka's posts, and the complete truth died with Mitose.
As to the original question, according to Sijo Emperado (who was William Chow's first black belt and chief instructor) both Mitose and Chow only taught one kata, one of the "Naihanchi" katas.
And to clarify another post, Mitose never knew or taught Kajukenbo.

[Doc]

Originally posted by John Bishop
Well there's a whole lot of truth in both Doc. Chapel, and Kemnpoka's posts, and the complete truth died with Mitose.
As to the original question, according to Sijo Emperado (who was William Chow's first black belt and chief instructor) both Mitose and Chow only taught one kata, one of the "Naihanchi" katas.
And to clarify another post, Mitose never knew or taught Kajukenbo.

Thank you sir, you saved me from having to make that post. We also all know Sijo Emperado was the driving force behind the creation of Kajukembo as the senior student of Chow and senior to Ed Parker, which Parker was quite proud to say often.

[Seig]

I do not have it with me, but in Infinite Insights, Mr. Parker quite clearly states that he was never a student of Mitose's and not in his lineage.

[Doc]

Originally posted by kenmpoka
First off, I have to say that I consider Doc to be a GREAT and knowledgeable teacher, be it techniques or history. Having said that, I do not agree with his opinions in regards to Mr. Mitose, specially 20-25 years prior to moving to the mainland. He was the most senior Kenpo/Kempo instructor in the islands and in fact the originator of all that what we now know as Kenpo or Kempo.The seed of all this mess was planted by him. Contrary to the recent posts, he was well respected among his contemporaries until in my opinion,he got greedy and corrupt. Mr. Chow did in fact study with Mr. Mitose in his brand of Kenpo Jujutsu later renamed Kosho Ryu Kempo. It is generally accepted that Mr. Chow had some knowledge of Chuan Fa and Jujutsu learned fom his older brothers, students of Okazaki Sensei. These facts have been confirmed By Sig Kufferath(?sp), deceased, The inheritor of Danzan Ryu Jujutsu and Mr. Chow's own brother that was one of the top seniors of Danzan Ryu and Kosho Ryu Kempo. Others like Sijo Emperado the founder of Kajukenbo have also confirmed the relationship between the men, as teacher and student.Btw, Mr. Emperado is himself a rank holder of Mr. Mitose and his teaching license was originally issued by Mr. Mitose. Mr. Chow continued evolving his ideas were as Mitose pursued other things that got him in trouble.

As far as the lineage Of SGM Parker goes, in my opinion like others in Kenpo/Kempo world, like it or not fall under Mr. Mitose. Just like Tode Sakugawa of Okinawa that taught Sokon Matsumura, who in turn taught Itosu and the rest followed. Now Itosu did not study with Sakugawa but with his student, and that is how the lineage is established.

As far as the katas in Kosho Ryu go, originally the system was taught as self defense only using techiques as means. One form was thought by Mr. Mitose, Naihanchi (Tekki). Thomas Young the most senior student of Mitose, with his permission brought over some forms from Shorin Ryu and Kyokushin (influence of bobby lowe). These were the Pinan forms and over the years others followed. Mr.Juchnik, one of the heads of the two Kosho organizations, has also devised and added to the system over the years.

If one looks carefully in the copy of Kenpo Jiujitsu of Mitose, you will see the BASE of tehniques such as twirling wings, crossing talon and many others.

Sincerely with all my respects (truly) to Doc and others.


:asian:

Hey P.T.
You know in all the things we've discussed over time this seems to be the only area we disagree. That's a pretty good track record considering I had more disagreements than that with Ed Parker. In the big picture I guess it doesn't really matter and I'll still go teach on Tuesday and Mitose won't come up. I wish you could have seem him though. really bad. See you soon Buddy, and thank you for the very kind words.:asian:

[Sigung86]

Thanks Doc, John Bishop and Kenmpoka for making these posts.
I was not there, nor was I part of the West Coast scene... Having gotten my beatings ... er ... training in Texas in the early years.

I, for one, and as a Tracy Kenpoist, do not revere Mitose. Personally, he may have been the greatest karateka that ever lived, but with his rep and actions, I don't think I would have bothered to be associated with him.

Having said that, I will say this ... Al Tracy is not crazy, nor is he stupid. He has, I know, invested thousands of dollars and hours into his investigation of Mitose and the Mitose clan history. There, in fact, may be much more to the story than any of us, up to and including SGM Parker, knew or do currently know. I can not imagine Al doing that and tying himself to Mitose simply on a whim. Nonetheless, Mitose is part and parcel of all of our history and lineage to a greater or lesser extent simply because, if for no other reason, he was there and had a hand in how things developed.

But you guys are right... There are some glaring inconsistencies in what is in the book and what we do (both EPAK and Tracy). Now that could simply be due to my lack of the ancient wisdom too.

Dan

[Kenpomachine]

Originally posted by Doc
There are many who feel that Mitose brought nothing and his lineage is at the least suspect. It also pre-supposes that Chow was sitting around waiting for Mitose to show up. Mitose was not a senior to Parker nor was he Parker's instructor, never "taught" Parker, and not a part of the Parker lineage., per Ed Parker himself. "Mitose showed me nothing..." Ed parker stated in an interview for Karate Illustrasted Magazine.

Senior as in older. The other remark meaning that the time they could have meet/train/fight or whatever together was prior to Parker's development of Parker Kenpo, thus it was imposible that Mitose would have taught any Parker Kenpo form. Nothing else.
Sorry if the wording implies other things, but I usually write messages after arriving home tired at 11pm.

[Dave Simmons]

Originally posted by Doc
I have have heard many things but never had I heard of Chow being "nervous" or intimadated by anyone, especially Mitose. In fact as the story goes, Mitose would go from school to school to intimidate people to 'come under him." Parker said that when he threatened to come back and kill Chow if he didn't comply, Chow reportedly said "come on I'll be waiting for you." Only when Mitose backed down did the collaboration begin later with mutual respect.

From a logic perspective, why would Chow feel a reason to be "nervous" in Mitose's precense when Chow's rep was as a take all comers "kick ass" nicknamed Thunderbolt for his legeandary island prowess as a fighter, and having studied with many on the islands including extensive jiu-jitsu and matwork from Henry Okazaki who respected Chow immensely.

I've never heard anyone speak of Mitose's skills and in fact having seen him myself along with other Parker black belts, what he displayed was less than mediocre and pure nonsense. This confirmed Ed Parker's own assessment and perception of Mitose's so-called skills.

Yes Mitose had a rep but it wasn't as a fighter, whereas Chow by all acounts was a legend.

The only people who have ever given credence to Mitose as a Martial artist are his own people who never trained with him physically (because he was incarcerated), and Al Tracy who went through extensive efforts to switch his lineage to Mitose and therefore had to for his own credibility. This supported by the Tracy "black sheep" Will Tracy hinself. In fact you cannot find any reference to "Kosho-Ryu" at all until Mitose came to the mainland.

No one ever thought of Mitose as a "kickass" but they were intimidated by his "black assasin" black chauffeurs that he threatened people with (who were unaware of his threats ).

Al and I go way back, and although he may not admit it, he knows I know the drill. Frankly Al really never needed Mitose anyway. What he did on his own in Kenpo is huge, and I submit that Tracy Eclipsed anything that Mitose might have done, over 30 years ago creating the most successful model of commercial schools ever in the histroy of the martial arts.

Obviously this is a debate that can go on because many have tied their lineage to Mitose. But Mitose is not in my or my instructors lineage and in my opinion, Al Tracy forgot more than Mitose ever knew for what that's work. That's it for me.

Hi Doc,

Just wanted to let you know at the the first Gathering of Eagles I had a chance to visit with Sig Kufferath and touch on some of our lineage. He confirm our lineage and from a historical perspective we all, Kenpo folks, share the same "roots".

Dave Simmons

http://www.mnkenpo.com

[kenpo_cory]

OK, I have a question regarding the forms in American Kenpo. If Mr. Parker was Professor Chow's student and Professor Chow didn't teach any forms, with the exception of maybe one that I've heard of so far, then why did Mr. Parker and his students take such time creating the forms of American Kenpo. Obviously with the skill Mr. Parker showed it is not necessary to teach the forms in order to teach all of the principles and concepts.

[arnisador]

Please, consider trimming your quotes!

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-

[Dave Simmons]

Originally posted by kenpo_cory
OK, I have a question regarding the forms in American Kenpo. If Mr. Parker was Professor Chow's student and Professor Chow didn't teach any forms, with the exception of maybe one that I've heard of so far, then why did Mr. Parker and his students take such time creating the forms of American Kenpo. Obviously with the skill Mr. Parker showed it is not necessary to teach the forms in order to teach all of the principles and concepts.

The first four forms were created for mainland Kenpo by Grandmaster Jimmy Wing Woo (collaberation request by Parker). Subsequently many of Ed Parker's early black belts followed Woo later. This happened in 60's! The rest is history as well.

Dave Simmons

http://www.mnkenpo.com
:)

[cassidy]

wHY TRIM THEM THEY ARE ALL LEGITAMATE FROM MASTERS OF THE ART AT LEAST SOME OF THEM SUCH AS DOC. iT GETS DOWN TO THE BOTTOM OF THE ISSUE AND THAT CAN NOT BE DONE IN TWO SENTENCES.

[Doc]

Originally posted by Dave Simmons
The first four forms were created for mainland Kenpo by Grandmaster Jimmy Wing Woo (collaberation request by Parker). Subsequently many of Ed Parker's early black belts followed Woo later. This happened in 60's! The rest is history as well.

Dave Simmons

http://www.mnkenpo.com
:)
We can agree on that. I guess in many ways I was lucky growing up in Southern California and was priviledged to bump into "masters" from different arts all the time. The list of people I had a chance to meet (and took for granted at the time) is awesome. I mean, Jimmy Woo's Chinese Martial Arts Association was right there on Hollywood Blvd.

The notable "defection" was James Ibrao who traveled to Northern California with Parker for some of those lessons from various Chinese Masters, and ultimately just stayed when Parker came back south.

Ark Wong's Kwoon was right there off Broadway on Ord Street (where "Tiny" Lefiti trained also), which was around the corner from College street where Bruce Lee settled his school, which was around the corner from the Chinese restaurant "Won Kok" where Parker used to go eat with some of lucky guys.

On Hollywood Blvd you also had Oshima's dojo, on Olympic was Nishiyama, and Nakayama taught one summer at Los Angeles High School. Sea Oh Choi of Hap Ki Do opened the first such school in the U.S. on Crenshaw and Jefferson in 64' followed by Brian Sung down the street on Jefferson. Then my good friend Bong Soo Han (sponsored by Choi) came over and opend a school across from Manual Arts High where I was teaching my after school club of Kenpo. He shared pictures with me of some movie he worked on called "Billy Jack" and we laughed about a Korean playing a Native American Indian in a movie. Obsurd. On sunset you had Tak Kubota and his group over by Hollywood High, where guys like my college friend George Byrd slugged it out so often, he had no front teeth.

Also over on Jefferson was the Sinan Dojo famous for Goju, down the street from an Aikido school, down the street from a judo School. Over on Pico was San Soo.

And of course you had Parker in Pasadena and he also had a school on 76th and Crenshaw, that moved later to Inglewood on Hawthorne off Century ran by Chuck Sullivan. If you wanted to fight you had to go through there (Thursday was the night).

The greatest thing that could happen to a youngster in Southern Cal was to get a car. Once you had wheels, all of these places (and many more) were within 20 minutes of each other.

You see for many of you these things are history. For an old geezer like me, their just really great memories. I'll stop rambling now.

[KenpoDave]

Originally posted by Doc
I have have heard many things but never had I heard of Chow being "nervous" or intimadated by anyone, especially Mitose.

I've never heard anyone speak of Mitose's skills


Lisa Chun related this story back in the early 90's at the Tracy school in Lexington. She is pictured in Mitose's book, and was taught by Mitose so that his sister could have a workout partner. She was Chow's girlfiriend for a while, and would accompany Chow when he was teaching. Chow was a "kickass" kind of guy, but Ms. Chun states that when Mitose would show up to a class that Chow was teaching, it was obvious who the master and who the student was.

Dave

[arnisador]

Originally posted by cassidy
wHY TRIM THEM THEY ARE ALL LEGITAMATE FROM MASTERS OF THE ART AT LEAST SOME OF THEM SUCH AS DOC. iT GETS DOWN TO THE BOTTOM OF THE ISSUE AND THAT CAN NOT BE DONE IN TWO SENTENCES.

You should quote as much as you feel you need to quote. In some cases that will be the whole article. In other cases that will make the post less readable.

At some point however older posts will need to be taken offline for storage reasons. This happens on all fora--often only posts from the previous year or two are available online. MartialTalk has more storage available than many sites but even still a limit will some day be hit. Overquoting adds storage requirements but does not contribute new information ot already found somewhere in the thread.

Please, quote as you feel you need to--it's far from an urgent problem. However, if you keep this matter in mind, it'll help us keep more of these posts easily available in the future.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-

[Doc]

[/QUOTE]
Please, quote as you feel you need to--it's far from an urgent problem. However, if you keep this matter in mind, it'll help us keep more of these posts easily available in the future.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin- [/B][/QUOTE]

Sir! Yes sir!

[cassidy]

Doc that is to funny,taking me back to basic training days in the military:)

[Doc]

Originally posted by kenpo_cory
OK, I have a question regarding the forms in American Kenpo. If Mr. Parker was Professor Chow's student and Professor Chow didn't teach any forms, with the exception of maybe one that I've heard of so far, then why did Mr. Parker and his students take such time creating the forms of American Kenpo. Obviously with the skill Mr. Parker showed it is not necessary to teach the forms in order to teach all of the principles and concepts.

The principles and concepts didn't exist before Parker. Once he began learning from the Chinese Parker understood the value of forms as "indexs of information." It's called "evolution."

[kenpo_cory]

Originally posted by Doc
You see for many of you these things are history. For an old geezer like me, their just really great memories. I'll stop rambling now.

Great stuff Mr Chapel, I love your history lessons. Thank you. :asian:

[kenpo_cory]

Originally posted by Dave Simmons
The first four forms were created for mainland Kenpo by Grandmaster Jimmy Wing Woo (collaberation request by Parker). Subsequently many of Ed Parker's early black belts followed Woo later. This happened in 60's! The rest is history as well.

Dave Simmons

http://www.mnkenpo.com
:)

Wow, I never knew that. Thank you.

[Kenpomachine]

Originally posted by Doc
You see for many of you these things are history. For an old geezer like me, their just really great memories. I'll stop rambling now.

I've enjoyed every bit of your rambling :D Thanks for sharing

:asian:

[jfarnsworth]

Originally posted by Doc
You see for many of you these things are history. For an old geezer like me, their just really great memories. I'll stop rambling now.

Your experience and sharing here with us is appreciated.

[Doc]

Originally posted by cassidy
Doc that is to funny,taking me back to basic training days in the military:)

SIR! "Full Metal Jacket" still gives me the shakes. SIR!

[Doc]

Originally posted by jfarnsworth
Your experience and sharing here with us is appreciated.

I'm sorry the nurse says I have to go take my medicine. Thanks.

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Doc
SIR! "Full Metal Jacket" still gives me the shakes. SIR!

I just watched that for the first time last week. I was never in the military but I was a civilian DoD employee for 5 years in very military environments and it does bring back memories!

[arnisador]

Originally posted by jfarnsworth
Your experience and sharing here with us is appreciated.

Yes, this is very much what we want the space used for! It's the members who make MartialTalk such a useful place by the content they contribute. We're fortunate to have such knowledgeable and well-known people here.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-

[kenmpoka]

Originally posted by Doc
Hey P.T.
You know in all the things we've discussed over time this seems to be the only area we disagree. That's a pretty good track record considering I had more disagreements than that with Ed Parker. In the big picture I guess it doesn't really matter and I'll still go teach on Tuesday and Mitose won't come up. I wish you could have seem him though. really bad. See you soon Buddy, and thank you for the very kind words.:asian:


:asian: :asian:

[arnisador]

Originally posted by jfarnsworth
Your experience and sharing here with us is appreciated.

That goes for us non-Kenpoka too--I've certainly learned a lot about kenpo by lurking in threads like these!

[RCastillo]

Originally posted by arnisador
That goes for us non-Kenpoka too--I've certainly learned a lot about kenpo by lurking in threads like these!

All very good, interesting information, and on top of that, no readers here lost any teeth, or blood!:)

[Mike]

Originally posted by arnisador
Yes, this is very much what we want the space used for!

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-

I learned much from this single thread. At it's best this is a great forum.

[Goldendragon7]

There are some reasons for defending the Mitose Lineage that should not be aired on any forums.

Even tho I enjoy Chape'ls thoughts, ideas, teachings and point of views...... at times we do disagree...... However, as far as this string goes..... I agree with him 100%.

:asian:

[Doc]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7
There are some reasons for defending the Mitose Lineage that should not be aired on any forums.

Even tho I enjoy Chape'ls thoughts, ideas, teachings and point of views...... at times we do disagree...... However, as far as this string goes..... I agree with him 100%.

:asian:

..told you he was smart.:)

[Seig]

I strongly urge you to read Infinite Insights Volume 1 pages 20-22, before this discussion proceeds any furhter.

[Doc]

Originally posted by Seig
I strongly urge you to read Infinite Insights Volume 1 pages 20-22, before this discussion proceeds any furhter.

I'm kinda familiar with those books, being represented in all of them. But I also knew Ed Parker well, and I know what he wrote and why, because I asked. As I stated before he said certain things in print to avoid controversy and in deference to former associates like Al Tracy, Ralph Castro, as well as Chow himself. Everybody was shufling positions to enhance their marketability, prominece and increase the size of their "stick" or to shape their own history.

Those books were not written as American Kenpo "bibles" as some want them to be. They were conceptual compilations written for the entire martial arts community that he truly hoped to reach. (The reason for its conceptual rather than specific format). He knew this was a very touchy area at the time so he attempted to protray Mitose as at least "patriotic," and even showed a favorable position on the insert "Familty Tree." But that was a long way from his private stance which many like Dennis Conatser would have heard personally from the "Old Man's" mouth as I did. Mitose was EVERYTHING he hated about people in the arts and he despised Mitose and would become angry when his name came up.

Personally I take a great deal of what was "written" for what it is. Much of what he told me and others, actually contridicted information written for the martial arts public in general, whom he was attempting to get to embrace his philosophies. He was attempting to reach beyond Kenpo to all martial artists.

I suggest you re-read those pages more closely from a more critical perspective. Ed Parker made unflattering comments about Mitose's so-called skills and makes reference to him imparting only "rudiments and Japanese philosophy" to Chow not "Kenpo knowledge." He uses words like "supposedly" when referring to Mitose's lineage. Read more closely and it reveals contridictions in itself as the man tiptoed through the mind field perception of Mitose created by others for their own purposes. Many myths still persist. Some even say Mitose taught Kajukembo to Sijo Emperado. Also not true. What stands out is Mitose didn't seem to teach anybody anything until he went jail.

Years later as people changed lineages and history to suit themselves even more, Parker became more and more vocal publicly and angry on the issue. He was even preparing to re-do Infinite Insights and interpret some of his previous statements more directly, and change some presentations to reflect a more direct unvarnished (read angry) point of view.

He was cutting ties, kicking butt, taking names, and assuming a less diplomatic position on just about everything. He had reached a point in his life where all bets were off. There some failed business projects and he had fired and/or divorced himself from many of his prominent student/associates and was literally "cleaning house and tossing out the garbage." The many names would shock you. (No I'm not telling here).

He was "pissed" at the direction some things had taken and he was preparing to launch a new chain of commercial schools using "The Perfect Weapon" as a springboard. He was restructuring his West Los Angeles School, actually getting back on the floor and teaching regularly on Thursday nights, something he hadn't done in decades. He was making decisions about the then closed Pasadena school from an arson fire. He had a list of people he was preparing to sue for various reasons. He was in attack mode and was not letting anything "slide." He kept me (and others) busy doing many "investigations" of people. places, and things.

In 1990 just before he passed on, he did an interview for the now defunct Karate Illustrated Magazine, (KI) and expressed a different and more honest and angry tone about Mitose. Here's an excerpt paste.

Question: Master Parker, some people have been saying that you never studied with James Mitose?
Parker: I never did study with Mitose, I saw him when I was 16 years old and he showed me nothing. Chow on the other hand was impressive.

Question: James Mitose went to prison later, didn't he?
Parker: Yes he went to prison. As a matter of policy, he could not have taught his art to anyone. Therefore the people who claimed to have earned diplomas from him during his time are mistaken. Someone named Gollub, a Ju-Jitsu practitioner, when confronted about this, he said the certificate was for the spiritual side of the art, not the physical side, making the certificate worthless.

Question: It's my understanding that Mitose had quite an extensive prison record?
Parker: Yes he did. One of the prison guards who was in my association gave me his rap sheet. Mitose was arrested in 1935 for attempted rape and also for extortion. He was quite a con man. Mitose used to wear a minister's outfit all the time, but he wasn't a legitimate minister. In the early 70's when he was a guest in my home, Mitose tried to entice me into working with him. He talked about raising ten million dollars to build a Kenpo temple and he wanted me to run it. I told him that I didn't want any part of his schemes. They're now saying that they're going to come out with the true other half of the Kenpo story. I know the Kenpo story. I was a part of it.

http://mawn.net/feat3.htm

No Offense but, "I suggest you read." I don't have to, I was there. It's not history to me.

[Doc]

What the .......

What does a person have to do to get promoted around here?

I was a blue belt now I've been demoted to purple.

I demand a recount, retest, or something. I'm gonna hold my breath until I make black. (belt)

[Kenpomachine]

That'll be a new guiness record. 200 msg written holding your breath :rofl: :rofl:

Talk to the moderator. They have people going from yellow to orange to green to blue to purple to brown to black. You see, we kenpo folks get first to green and then are demoted twice!!

[kenmpoka]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7
There are some reasons for defending the Mitose Lineage that should not be aired on any forums.

Even tho I enjoy Chape'ls thoughts, ideas, teachings and point of views...... at times we do disagree...... However, as far as this string goes..... I agree with him 100%.

:asian:
So Mr. Conatser, Are you offending me personally, or the Hawaiian Kenpo/Kempo factions, Kajukenbo practitioners, NCKKA, Tracys and many others, who simply acknowledge Mr.Mitose to have planted the seed of Kenpo in the Islands without any reverence to his character or even his knowledge or the lack thereof and just his place in Kenpo/Kempo history? Every family tree that I have seen places this man's name at the top!

May be if he would have called his art Mondo Jiujitsu, it would have evolved to, Chinese Mondo Karate, American Mondo Karate, American Mondo, or simply Mondo!!!

That is all, a man who started something that turned into this wonderfull art that is now cherished by many and feard by others.

This character assassinations must stop. Or Kenpo/Kempo will never be respected by the world and frankly it would take another five generations to spread the message.

I hope that have not offended you or Doc.

Respectfully,

[Doc]

Originally posted by kenmpoka
So Mr. Conatser, Are you offending me personally, or the Hawaiian Kenpo/Kempo factions, Kajukenbo practitioners, NCKKA, Tracys and many others, who simply acknowledge Mr.Mitose to have planted the seed of Kenpo in the Islands without any reverence to his character or even his knowledge or the lack thereof and just his place in Kenpo/Kempo history? Every family tree that I have seen places this man's name at the top!

May be if he would have called his art Mondo Jiujitsu, it would have evolved to, Chinese Mondo Karate, American Mondo Karate, American Mondo, or simply Mondo!!!

That is all, a man who started something that turned into this wonderfull art that is now cherished by many and feard by others.

This character assassinations must stop. Or Kenpo/Kempo will never be respected by the world and frankly it would take another five generations to spread the message.

I hope that have not offended you or Doc.

Respectfully,

Not me. Everyone has a point of view. Mine was shaped by my teacher and what I saw. In the end, I only mention it if someone aks my perspective and relay parker's words.

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by kenmpoka
So Mr. Conaster,
Respectfully,


First off........... It is Con at ser [many make that s & t mistake]


Originally posted by kenmpoka
Are you offending me personally,


Geeze, I certainly hope not! That is not the intent. I just agreed with Chape'l's comments. I'm sure he was not trying to offend you or others either. But fact is fact.


Originally posted by kenmpoka
May be if he would have called his art Mondo Jiujitsu, it would have evolved to, Chinese Mondo Karate, American Mondo Karate, American Mondo, or simply Mondo!!!


To me, it would be irrelevant as to what "he" called his system, my feelings would not change due to what Mr. Parker told me.


Originally posted by kenmpoka
That is all, a man who started something that turned into this wonderfull art that is now cherished by many and feard by others.


I think that is the source of controversy...... What did he start.... I don't agree with or follow the Mitose claims.....


Originally posted by kenmpoka
This character assassinations must stop. Or Kenpo/Kempo will never be respected by the world and frankly it would take another five generations to spread the message.


I never talk about Mitose...... not trying to assassinate him, the court system exposed that already, this is hard fact.... (some seem to find that hard to accept .... still) don't care what he does or did .... and if someone else wants to believe his claims...... go for it.... but don't try to tell me that what I do is connected otherwise I will speak out.

I don't understand what you are talking about ........ "My Kenpo" is and has always been respected, another 5 generations will only strengthen it.


Originally posted by kenmpoka
I hope that have not offended you or Doc.
Respectfully,

Well, I don't speak for anyone else, but I think it is unique that you make this statement after what you posted.:rofl:

:asian: respectfully, of course.

[GouRonin]

Originally posted by Doc
I stated before he said certain things in print to avoid controversy and in deference to former associates like Al Tracy, Ralph Castro, as well as Chow himself. Everybody was shufling positions to enhance their marketability, prominece and increase the size of their "stick" or to shape their own history.

Those books were not written as American Kenpo "bibles" as some want them to be.

He knew this was a very touchy area at the time so he attempted to protray Mitose as at least "patriotic," and even showed a favorable position on the insert "Familty Tree."

Personally I take a great deal of what was "written" for what it is. Much of what he told me and others, actually contridicted information written for the martial arts public in general, whom he was attempting to get to embrace his philosophies. He was attempting to reach beyond Kenpo to all martial artists.

I suggest you re-read those pages more closely from a more critical perspective. Ed Parker made unflattering comments about Mitose's so-called skills and makes reference to him imparting only "rudiments and Japanese philosophy" to Chow not "Kenpo knowledge." He uses words like "supposedly" when referring to Mitose's lineage. Read more closely and it reveals contridictions in itself as the man tiptoed through the mind field perception of Mitose created by others for their own purposes. Many myths still persist.

Years later as people changed lineages and history to suit themselves even more, Parker became more and more vocal publicly and angry on the issue. He was even preparing to re-do Infinite Insights and interpret some of his previous statements more directly, and change some presentations to reflect a more direct unvarnished (read angry) point of view.

He was cutting ties, kicking butt, taking names, and assuming a less diplomatic position on just about everything. He had reached a point in his life where all bets were off. There some failed business projects and he had fired and/or divorced himself from many of his prominent student/associates and was literally "cleaning house and tossing out the garbage." The many names would shock you. (No I'm not telling here).

He was "pissed" at the direction some things had taken and he was preparing to launch a new chain of commercial schools using "The Perfect Weapon" as a springboard. He was restructuring his West Los Angeles School, actually getting back on the floor and teaching regularly on Thursday nights, something he hadn't done in decades. He was making decisions about the then closed Pasadena school from an arson fire. He had a list of people he was preparing to sue for various reasons. He was in attack mode and was not letting anything "slide." He kept me (and others) busy doing many "investigations" of people. places, and things.

Doc, I have heard before that the tree in the Infinite Insight books was very political. Some of the parts of your post here are revealing of that and that Ed Parker only listed his tree as such because he was trying to reach out and encompass many people, even those past the Kenpo lineage.

Your wrap up of the post seems to imply that he was beginning a new phase where he no longer felt he had to be so "Politically correct" of what he said and felt. If he had re-done the II series of books would we have seen a more true lineage tree and what, without naming names, do you think the fallout of such a re-print would have been as best as you can describe tactfully.

If you would like to e-mail this to me I would understand as well. Thanx.

[Dave Simmons]

Originally posted by Doc
Not me. Everyone has a point of view. Mine was shaped by my teacher and what I saw. In the end, I only mention it if someone aks my perspective and relay parker's words.

The fact is we, Kenpo Folks, have roots. Although I do not always agree with Doc and Dennis Conatser we all have "common roots". That being said many times, we have all moved on to grow in Kenpo. My most recent experience is I do not fully agree with Al Tracy and have broken away from Tracy International. Yet I still am respectfull to him and our family tree. I respect our hertige because to move forward and grow in Kenpo a person must understand the past not deny it. I respect my American Kenpo brothers and sisters there is nothing to gain by "putting everyone down" who doesnt agree with our own journey. Just my input for what is worth.

Dave Simmons
http:/www.mnkenpo.com

[kenmpoka]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7
First off........... It is Con at ser [many make that s & t mistake]



Well, I don't speak for anyone else, but I think it is unique that you make this statement after what you posted.:rofl:

:asian: respectfully, of course.
Sorry, I did edit your name, It just did not go through. Over all I think that you missed the point I was trying to make. This string began with, What forms did Mitose teach?

Salute,

[Kirk]

Originally posted by Dave Simmons
I respect my American Kenpo brothers and sisters there is nothing to gain by "putting everyone down" who doesnt agree with our own journey.
Dave Simmons
http:/www.mnkenpo.com

Amen!

[Doc]

Originally posted by Kirk
Amen!

Let me put it this way. If you don't want an honest answer, please don't ask. I always attempt to be honest and forthright when I can, and I don't put "everyone" down, but I'm not going to lie either. Chastise the person who brought Mitose up, not those who answered the questions as honestly as they could.

That is what this forum is about, information. Certainly it would have been nice if some had maybe come to my defense when people were "putting me down," and I've never ripped anyone off, been busted, convicted of anything, and I'm still alive. No one ever tip toed around my feelings, and like it or not, I am senior to most of the so-called seniors with rare exceptions.

Second of all, Mitose died in prison as a convicted murderer. After that there's nothing I could say to put him down.

Third, my personal Kenpo roots begin and end with Ed Parker. No one, including Chow, before him had anything remotely close to the system HE created in American Kenpo. His previous training only gave him the conceptual idea of a self-defense focus. He created Kenpo as far as I am concerned.

Fourth, I have said nothing that isn't already documented somewhere else and of public record, including Ed Parker's own books and interviews.

Ed Parker went out of his way and fought hard against those who wanted to claim some kind of Japanese Lineage. He divorced himself from that kind of thinking, (and published Secrets of Chinese Karate to show the real roots of his art in 62') but he knew the distortions would persist no matter what he said for those who would "out Japanese the Japanese."

Parker believed always in giving credit where credit is due, he just didn't think
Mitose deserved any.

MY OPINION:

Al Tracy made Mitose. If not for Al, I don't think anybody would give a rats tootoo. I certainly don't, and I didn't create any of those truths.

Hint: I've had communication with the Tracy organization lately and I am very aware of his organization restructuring. I still have a couple of dimes left. (ain't that right "Big St. Lou?)

I apologize to anyone who might feel I brought up some ghosts, it was not my intention. I just prefer to whenever posssible give informative answers to questions.

Go Raiders!

[Rainman]

Go Raiders!

Good guys wear Ba-Lack!

[Doc]

Originally posted by GouRonin
[B]Doc, I have heard before that the tree in the Infinite Insight books was very political. Some of the parts of your post here are revealing of that and that Ed Parker only listed his tree as such because he was trying to reach out and encompass many people, even those past the Kenpo lineage.


Yes it was. In one case in particular, I was asked to "edit" (one "senior's) black belt list and removed as many as I could that I knew didn't belong, but many still got on there that weren't even kenpo black belts. One even made it to the "Journey." (I ain't tellin')



Your wrap up of the post seems to imply that he was beginning a new phase where he no longer felt he had to be so "Politically correct" of what he said and felt.


You have no idea. He was pissed and heads were rolling like bowling balls in an alley. Some reallly big names. Dennis knows most of them. Hell Parker didn't make it much of a sceret anyway.



If he had re-done the II series of books would we have seen a more true lineage tree and what, without naming names, do you think the fallout of such a re-print would have been as best as you can describe tactfully.


Well the tree would have been definitely different but, more importantly, some who were in the original series would not have made the cut on the re-do. Some have noticed that when he started his video series, although some were just not available, he really went out of his way to intentionally NOT include some people. Even to the point he used mostly unknowns and his own daughter, (who wasn't even studying at the time), as Edmund shot the series and animated it. I appeared briefly on a couple techniques and was the announcer. I'm telling you He was just really really mad at a bunch of folks that had got away with a lot of stuff for a long time, and talked a bunch of stuff about him behind his back, (they thought). He had lost A LOT of money and business opportunities, as he had earlier in his career and hw as have flashbacks. Truthfully, it happened in every generation of black belts. It was all about 2 things; Money and rank. Once you had one you could go after the other and nobody wanted a middleman named Parker. So he just remained as cordial as possible with all of them for business, but he never ever forgot. Late in the eighties after a couple of bad experiences at schools he owned, he just said "fu*k it" and started the heads rolling. And if you knew Ed parker, whenever he used that word, it was really serious.

But all the law suits and the public declarations and magazine interviews would have shown he had no real protegé's, and would have made everything self evident. I know Dennis was real close at the end and he probably knows pretty much the same info I do, so I'm not alone. There are others that know as well, but name-ing folks at this point in time really serves no purpose. Everybody is doing there thing and "The Old Man" is gone.

[arnisador]

Belt levels may have changed when posts were lost during the crash; your actual number of posts on MartialTalk is what is counted, not all posts made. The belt levels were changed at one point but it's been a while. Remember, you can always replace the belt with a custom display through your User CP panel.

For specific questions on a particular case, please e-mail or PM an admin. or mod.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-

[Kirk]

Dr Chapel,

My post wasn't in regards to Mitose. It was just chiming in on
the comment about the constant in-fighting that goes on between
camps. And it's not just Tracy/EPAK, it's organization to
organization within EPAK. That's all I was saying.

[Doc]

Originally posted by Kirk
Dr Chapel,

My post wasn't in regards to Mitose. It was just chiming in on
the comment about the constant in-fighting that goes on between
camps. And it's not just Tracy/EPAK, it's organization to
organization within EPAK. That's all I was saying.

That's not fair. You know I can't disagree with that.:)

[KenpoPower]

I haven't read all the posts, so I appologise if this has already been posted.

Infinite Insights, Book 1 on the bottom of page 21 clarifies the statement made earlier.

This small paragraph explains it all. " Contrary to some of the claims that have been made in publications, I was never a student of James Mitose".

In fact if you read further in the paragraph, you will find more interesting reading regarding Mitose.

Robert Ashmore

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by kenmpoka
Over all I think that you missed the point I was trying to make. This string began with, What forms did Mitose teach?
Salute,

LOL, I was just going with the flow. I didn't bring up the issue, I have commented on this same topic before. Since someone offered an opinion that I agreed with --- I posted that I supported the same views, that's all.

I'm personally really not interested in debating the Mitose topic further I have my own views and understandings.

Respectfully,
The Emperor
:asian:

[kenmpoka]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7
LOL, I was just going with the flow. I didn't bring up the issue, I have commented on this same topic before. Since someone offered an opinion that I agreed with --- I posted that I supported the same views, that's all.

I'm personally really not interested in debating the Mitose topic further I have my own views and understandings.

Respectfully,
The Emperor
:asian:
No problem Sir. I know you were going with the flow.

Respectfully,
The Supreme Professor.

:asian: :asian:

[Hollywood1340]

A very cool read, and always good to see cool heads prevail. It proves again it's the person not the art.
Yours in the Arts,

[Samurai]

WOW- What are all these worms going out of the can?? I must have open that can without knowing it !!

I am the person that started this thread (about the forms that Mitose taught). I simply asked this question because I saw a video tape on Ebay by Bruce Junick about a kata called "En Gyo No Kata" and I was wondering what that what (round Japanese translation in 'Circle Training Kata'?)

I am really happy to see many minds come together and reveal such great information about Mitose, Chow, Parker, and others. I am not a American Kenpoist but I have learned a lot.

One more question to ask here....
My teacher claimed to teach an art called Chinese Kenpo-Jistu. He gave me a brown belt in this but I can not find any historical information anywhere. I sort of this this is a made up art and I do not claim it on my "martial arts resume". Any ideas or information? I was wondering if it was linked to Mitose's system called Kenpo Jiu-Jitsu but he claimed a Japanese base?

Thanks
Jeremy Bays

[Sigung86]

Originally posted by Doc
What the .......

What does a person have to do to get promoted around here?

I was a blue belt now I've been demoted to purple.

I demand a recount, retest, or something. I'm gonna hold my breath until I make black. (belt)

You will, shortly, receive via mail, a certificate which is suitable for framing or wrapping fish. This certificate will declare you to any and all to be an Exalted 12th Degree in the infamous and nefariously efficient "St. Lou' Ryu". It indicates that you are proficient in tire iron, 9 mil, both semi and full automatic. Further it will declare you a Man among men, a veritible Ubermensch! Further, it will entitle you to one - three hour trip to the local Chinese Buffet should you ever show up in the home of the infamous and nefariously efficient "St. Lou Ryu" Master Instructor,
Honorable Master Kung Fu.

You will also be taught the secret family system form. The form is 371 moves that teach you the multiplicity of techniques against single and multiple attackers using a Beretta 9, 2 Beretta 9s, the little known S&W Model 76 Stove Pipe Full Auto 9 mil, and the equally little known secret techniques of multiple defense using the Sears & Roebuck ten dollar tire iron.

Figured while you are holding your breath you might as well get something useful from it! :lol:

Dan

[Seig]

Originally posted by Doc

I suggest you re-read those pages more closely from a more critical perspective.........
http://mawn.net/feat3.htm

No Offense but, "I suggest you read." I don't have to, I was there. It's not history to me.
That was exactly my point

[Doc]

Originally posted by Seig
That was exactly my point

I see. My Apologies.

[kelly keltner]

nonsense

[kelly keltner]

enn no gyo was a kata developed by Mr. Juchnik dedicated to the memory of James Mitose. It would represent the attributes of the monkey.

kell

[Seig]

How very appropriate.

[Karazenpo]

Okay, I've read all the posts and I have to put in my two cents in all due respect to everyone's opinion. Like Doc had said, you ask for a truthful opinion and he gave one. Nothing wrong with that, you can agree or disagree but we should all respect it, so here's mine. I tend to agree with Brother Peter (Kempoka) and I would like to elaborate a little. I will give fact and opinion. Fact: Thomas Young signed William Chow's black belt certificate. Young's certificate was signed by James Mitose. Ed Parker's was signed by William Chow. This, in anybody's language connects the dots on lineage. If you don't believe in lineage, fine, but if you do this stands undisputed. Also, the talk about Chow's Kung Fu training-there is currently no more published documentation of Chow's Kung Fu training then there is of Mitose training at the Shaka-In Temple in Japan! Professor Jaimie Abregana of Hawaii has been involved in an A&E investigation entitled: Hawaii: The Gateway to the Martial Arts and Mitose has, from what I understand, been traced to the Motobu lineage, not directly but throught a Motobu black belt. 1st or 2nd generation (I have already posted this history with names, etc. on another topic on this forum with info. supplied to me by John Bishop). Now, there is more information we are presently awaiting documentation of from Shihan Mike Brown, a highly respected martial artist and historian from Rhode Island also connecting Mitose to Japan. Regardless of this outcome the fact is Mitose started the whole ball of wax and I totally agree with the way Brother Peter put it and I will agree with something Al Tracy had said: No Mitose-No Kenpo! Trust me on this one, being a seasoned police officer I am no way a fan of Mitose but I also believe in giving the devil his due. Also Doc stated, and Doc I've learned a lot from you through our correspondence and have the utmost respect for you as we are both brothers in two ways but you stated no one has ever attested to Mitose's ability. A couple of years ago I asked the same thing. Brother Gerry Scott, Kajukenbo of Hawaii acted as an intermediate and brought some of my questions to Sijo Emperado. I asked if Mitose just had a study of the 'surface arts', had some natural ability, put it together and started this thing we call kenpo. He stated Mitose's abilities were those of a master instructor and that the seniors back then always felt Mitose's Kenpo was Okinawan in origin but never gave any proof of it. Again, I have this conversation posted on the Kajukenbo Cafe forum of which I am a moderator. I suppose if we observed the old 'Te' masters of Okinawa, we in the 21st century would not be too impressed either. As a matter of fact, when I look at the old pictures of the old Okinawans' doing techniques it looks totally impractical by today's standards! Everyone would have to agee on that. Like it or not, Mitose was the catalyst that ignited the flame that gave us all the fine systems we practice today. One other thing. First, I also have the utmost respect for Mr. Ed Parker and his contributions to the arts but I did notice he did the 'John Kerry Flip-Flop' on the Mitose issue. Parker had a column in Black Belt magazine (Doc and I discussed this), I have the magazine in my possesion and he said nothing but good things about Mitose's teachings and his place in the Kenpo world. I also have Infinite Insights and it is nothing at all like what's written there. This is fact and in other posts I've listed the magazine's date and volume and have even posted excerpts from the article. I'll tell you, this kenpo thing is more controversial than the war in Iraq! Respectfully submitted, Professor Joe Shuras

[Gentle Fist]

Once again Joe, great post!!!

What is the system that Motobu's son teaches now? Is it the same as before, or slightly modified?

[monkey-a-go-go]

Professor Shuras, is the Motobu student the one who possibly challenged Thomas Miyashiro? What's your take on the Mutsu Mizuho's "Kenpo karate" compared to Mitose's book? Konishi was a heavy supporter of Motobu whom he helped develop a bit of an entourage. Alot of his kumite concepts were absorbed by guys like Ohtsuka of Wadu ryu kenpo jiujitsu and Nagamine in his Yakusoku kumite. One can compare Motobu to Mitose and then Mitose to Mizuho and it fits closer to the latter. Mizuho main instruction was in Tokyo with Otsuka and Funakoshi, although he travelled to Okinawa to research. By his books and his son Chosei, Motobu like to hit which was suited to his brawling. The twists aren't there. Mitose shared Motobu's makiwara style and Naihanchi but his waza is markedly different. Motobu was infamous for his skill with ippon-ken while Mitose favors the midde-knuckle strike as in Funakoshi lineage. I am leaning towards Funakoshi>Otsuka(Motobu influence)>Mizuho>Mitose. Then confused about Robert Trias/Mitose connection because of the Kosho crest in the background of Trias's book and his claims of Motobu's style. But Trias's methods look nothing like Motobu's and have their Naihanchi kata are different. And where's the Hsing I except for a couple tiger claws? As a foot note Funakoshi's karate was still closer to shorin ryu. The developments by his son Gigo and others were still in the making. Whew!

[Karazenpo]

Professor Shuras, is the Motobu student the one who possibly challenged Thomas Miyashiro? What's your take on the Mutsu Mizuho's "Kenpo karate" compared to Mitose's book? Konishi was a heavy supporter of Motobu whom he helped develop a bit of an entourage. Alot of his kumite concepts were absorbed by guys like Ohtsuka of Wadu ryu kenpo jiujitsu and Nagamine in his Yakusoku kumite. One can compare Motobu to Mitose and then Mitose to Mizuho and it fits closer to the latter. Mizuho main instruction was in Tokyo with Otsuka and Funakoshi, although he travelled to Okinawa to research. By his books and his son Chosei, Motobu like to hit which was suited to his brawling. The twists aren't there. Mitose shared Motobu's makiwara style and Naihanchi but his waza is markedly different. Motobu was infamous for his skill with ippon-ken while Mitose favors the midde-knuckle strike as in Funakoshi lineage. I am leaning towards Funakoshi>Otsuka(Motobu influence)>Mizuho>Mitose. Then confused about Robert Trias/Mitose connection because of the Kosho crest in the background of Trias's book and his claims of Motobu's style. But Trias's methods look nothing like Motobu's and have their Naihanchi kata are different. And where's the Hsing I except for a couple tiger claws? As a foot note Funakoshi's karate was still closer to shorin ryu. The developments by his son Gigo and others were still in the making. Whew!

The Motobu student in question, from what I understand, was not a notable martial artist of this era. I'm not saying he wasn't highly skilled but what I mean is he wasn't a famous Okinawan as was some of the others you have listed. His name was Nabura Tanahama. I don't know if he is the same one you mentioned in that challenge but I tend to doubt it because I think we would have heard about him before this A&E investigation. Sigung Bishop told me the information came from a 92 year old classmate of Mitose who is still living. Yes, I feel Mizuho's Kenpo Karate is what is demonstrated in Mitose's book, "What is Self Defense? (Kenpo Jiu Jitsu)" which can be seen on the Tracy website. It is believed by many that Mitose plagiarized Mizuho's book. Also if you check out Mitose's book, Robert Trias' book, "The Hand is My Sword" and Ed Parker's book, "Kenpo Karate: Law of the Fist and Empty Hand", you will see many similiarities in techniques-many! That's why I believe we're all tied into the same lineage. I am positive that Robert Trias was friendly with James Mitose and they more than likely exchanged some knowledge. I confirmed this relationship with Gm. Trias' daughter, Dr. Roberta Trias-Kelley. Yeah, I know what you mean about the crest but you figure if Mitose did study under one of Motobu's student's than he would recognize Motobu as being his 'master' so to speak and Trias as a connection to this lineage. Here's something else that I found in my research that I thought was very interesting. We've all heard of the Chinese emmissary or general that was one of the pioneers who brought the Chinese arts to Okinawa-Kusanku, whom a form bears his name, well, the name Kusanku goes by several different spellings and guess what? One of those spellings is 'KOSHO"!!!! Something to think about, I'd say!

[Karazenpo]

Once again Joe, great post!!!

What is the system that Motobu's son teaches now? Is it the same as before, or slightly modified?

Thank you, Fistlaw720. I really can't answer that question. I have no idea but perhaps someone else can help. Matt Barnes is also into the history of the arts and is very knowledgable, perhaps if he reads this post he can answer your question. "Joe"

[monkey-a-go-go]

Thanks for you insight Professor Shuras! Kushanku/Kosho, wow very interesting. Another thing about the tale of Thomas Miyashiro's challenge is that he supposedly switched to kung fu to win, which would mean the tradition of chinese teaching only chinese/ okinawans only teaching okinawans etc. may have had exceptions in Hawaii. Its amazing how this stuff ends up linking together. It would great to hear more about Trias's early methods origin, so if anyone has it lets hear it. I am only familar with basics.

[KenpoDave]

Here's something else that I found in my research that I thought was very interesting. We've all heard of the Chinese emmissary or general that was one of the pioneers who brought the Chinese arts to Okinawa-Kusanku, whom a form bears his name, well, the name Kusanku goes by several different spellings and guess what? One of those spellings is 'KOSHO"!!!! Something to think about, I'd say!

I had originally heard that the name Kusanku, in the Okinawan dialect, is Kosho-kun. You are right, something to think about.

[Rob Broad]

I just finished reading this entire thread and I would like to say this is one of the best discussions I have read about the Mitose/Chow/Parker etc... lineage fiasco.

I know that Mitose was a criminal and died in prison.

I know the Chow was Parker's instructor. I know that Chow passed his system on to Sam Kuhoa(sp).

I know that all 3 men are no longer with with us and all of them are missed, it is just hard to find anyone that misses all 3 of them together.

I know that history is often re-written to fit peoples needs.

Since Chow, and Mitose are no longer with us we will never know the whole story, only what people like to spout to fit their needs. I take this with a grain of salt, and always take into consideration who wrote it and where it and why the topic was brought up.

Doc and Mr. C thank you for sharing your wisdom with us. Some will heed well, others will use it to incite strife, some will learn from it, and some will be be ignorant of the whole message. I prefer to put the politics behind me these days, life is too short to be foolishly squabbling about history that can not be substantiated directly from the source.

[Seig]

Rob,
I largely agree with you. As instructors we owe it to our students to give them unvarnished facts about the history of our systems; not as we would like it to be, but as it is. I give my students the facts as I know them, I let them draw their own conclusions. I will give my opnion, if asked, only after they have examined the facts available. Then they are free to disagree with me, if they can base their argument in logic. I have disagreed with my own instructor in this manner. I usually do not change his mind, but receive a hell of an education in return.

[Karazenpo]

Thanks for you insight Professor Shuras! Kushanku/Kosho, wow very interesting. Another thing about the tale of Thomas Miyashiro's challenge is that he supposedly switched to kung fu to win, which would mean the tradition of chinese teaching only chinese/ okinawans only teaching okinawans etc. may have had exceptions in Hawaii. Its amazing how this stuff ends up linking together. It would great to hear more about Trias's early methods origin, so if anyone has it lets hear it. I am only familar with basics.

Dr. Roberta Trias-Kelley did tell me she was working on a book about her father's life. This should answer a lot of questions and hopefully may shed some more light on the Mitose controversay and the martial ats in Hawaii during this era.

[kenmpoka]

I had originally heard that the name Kusanku, in the Okinawan dialect, is Kosho-kun. You are right, something to think about.
Hello,

Actually the Kata KUSANKU is the Okinawan pronounciation of the Chinese emissary of the Ming dynasty's name.
The names KOSOKUN or KOSHOKUN were used in Japan mainland. Funakoshi changed the name to KWANKU and later to KANKU (dai,sho). You have to have the Kanji to compare to Kosho-ryu (Ko-Matsu ryu). Sho / Matsu mean pine (tree), Ko means old. Kanji(s) might sound the same but not necessarily mean the same.

Respectfully,

[Karazenpo]

Hello,

Actually the Kata KUSANKU is the Okinawan pronounciation of the Chinese emissary of the Ming dynasty's name.
The names KOSOKUN or KOSHOKUN were used in Japan mainland. Funakoshi changed the name to KWANKU and later to KANKU (dai,sho). You have to have the Kanji to compare to Kosho-ryu (Ko-Matsu ryu). Sho / Matsu mean pine (tree), Ko means old. Kanji(s) might sound the same but not necessarily mean the same.

Respectfully,

Correct, Brother Peter. I agree. However, I think the inference is that if the final research proves there was no 'family system' of Kosho ryu and I'm not going to say one way or the other until all the facts are in, then perhaps Mitose borrowed the name from his training in Okinawan Kempo. In other words he credits Motobu with being an instructor of his and history of the Okinawan arts would have shown Kusanku or 'Kosho'kan as being an ancient ancestor of this lineage. Did he (Mitose) take this history of Okinawan Kempo and create his own history in Kosho ryu? Recall that Mitose stated that his family art was originally founded by an ancient ancester of his named 'Kosho'. As of this post it appears to me that the Okinawan connection should be coming out soon as fact if A&E is successful in their investigation. If so, we will then have to wait to see what Shihan Mike Brown has uncovered in Japan as far as a Japanese connection goes. I think we should wait until all the facts are in before we draw a positive conclusion to this enigma and I remain open-minded to this part of the Mitose story. However, as far as Mitose's criminal background goes, my mind is closed and the jury has long been in and I don't understand how anyone can dispute the facts of this man's other side and for any detractors to what I just stated, yes, I researched the transcripts, probation records and everything I could get my hands on. For the record, in my correspondence with Shihan Brown he has never defended Mitose's criminal actions but others I have spoken to have! I just don't get it.

[kenmpoka]

Correct, Brother Peter. I agree. However, I think the inference is that if the final research proves there was no 'family system' of Kosho ryu and I'm not going to say one way or the other until all the facts are in, then perhaps Mitose borrowed the name from his training in Okinawan Kempo. In other words he credits Motobu with being an instructor of his and history of the Okinawan arts would have shown Kusanku or 'Kosho'kan as being an ancient ancestor of this lineage. Did he (Mitose) take this history of Okinawan Kempo and create his own history in Kosho ryu? Recall that Mitose stated that his family art was originally founded by an ancient ancester of his named 'Kosho'. As of this post it appears to me that the Okinawan connection should be coming out soon as fact if A&E is successful in their investigation. If so, we will then have to wait to see what Shihan Mike Brown has uncovered in Japan as far as a Japanese connection goes. I think we should wait until all the facts are in before we draw a positive conclusion to this enigma and I remain open-minded to this part of the Mitose story. However, as far as Mitose's criminal background goes, my mind is closed and the jury has long been in and I don't understand how anyone can dispute the facts of this man's other side and for any detractors to what I just stated, yes, I researched the transcripts, probation records and everything I could get my hands on. For the record, in my correspondence with Shihan Brown he has never defended Mitose's criminal actions but others I have spoken to have! I just don't get it.
Hey Joe,

I was just trying to clarify the origin and pronounciation of KUSANKU. I don't much care about the subject of Mitose, Chow, and all the rest of the high and mighty GMs. Btw, the inference to Motobu in Mitose's book was only as a Kenpo Master. I think everybody else made Motobu his teacher!!!

How are you anyway?

Peter.

[Karazenpo]

Hey Joe,

I was just trying to clarify the origin and pronounciation of KUSANKU. I don't much care about the subject of Mitose, Chow, and all the rest of the high and mighty GMs. Btw, the inference to Motobu in Mitose's book was only as a Kenpo Master. I think everybody else made Motobu his teacher!!!

How are you anyway?

Peter.

Hi Peter, things are getting better but I had a stressful several weeks. My mother had to go in for surgery but she's back home now and everything seems to be going fine. I had to take time off from the cop job and teaching, just starting to get things going again. Thanks for asking. I can't remember right now where I referenced it but Mitose has been quoted as saying to people (not in his book) that Motobu was his instructor. If anyone remembers this please post the reference. I first got into the history just to have the right questions when the students ask instead of passing on myths and so forth. Then, to be honest, it also started to arouse my curiosity. However, I still like to have the right answers or at least as close to the truth as possible when asked and many students are asking questions, not to mention many have been misled and they don't even have a clue! I know you feel the same way too. Take care, Joe

[Karazenpo]

Hi Peter, things are getting better but I had a stressful several weeks. My mother had to go in for surgery but she's back home now and everything seems to be going fine. I had to take time off from the cop job and teaching, just starting to get things going again. Thanks for asking. I can't remember right now where I referenced it but Mitose has been quoted as saying to people (not in his book) that Motobu was his instructor. If anyone remembers this please post the reference. I first got into the history just to have the right questions when the students ask instead of passing on myths and so forth. Then, to be honest, it also started to arouse my curiosity. However, I still like to have the right answers or at least as close to the truth as possible when asked and many students are asking questions, not to mention many have been misled and they don't even have a clue! I know you feel the same way too. Take care, Joe

To answer my own question as to the origin of the Mitose/Motobu connection I found it in my documents. The late historian Richard Kim had told Sigung John Bishop that Mitose, himself, had stated that Motobu was his instructor.

[BlackCatBonz]

ummm...........did you ever think that people may lie to suit their own ends?

everyone claims mitose was a liar..........but funny how everyone that KNEW him HAS to be telling the truth.

Naihan No Kata

[DoxN4cer]

This particular thread has been very informative in terms of the history and devlopment of kenpo in the US. I want to thank everyone for sharing so much here. I have a new and better understanding of the subject now.

Tim Kashino

[GAB]

Hi Everyone: Just to throw this in, in the line of Emperors of Japan, Number 5 is listed as Kosho. Just a tidbit to discuss. Regards, Gary

[BlackCatBonz]

i think the problem lies in the fact that people just tend to read the english translation of something and pay no mind to the kanji where the translation came from....
古 (ko) - meaning old and 松(sho or matsu) - meaning pine tree. 古 松 流 拳 法

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