How many Martial Arts did Bruce Lee know. And what ranks was he in these?

He only formally studied Wing Chun under Yip-Man. As far as I recall, it was for about 5 years only, which was not enough to complete the forms and all the techniques in the system. Essentially, he didn't finish his training because he left the country.

So that is all that he knew. Five years of Wing Chun. I thought he supposedly knew a whole lot of stuff. Guess you can't believe everything you hear.

That's his only extended formal training. He continued to learn things here and there from other people, like Chuck Norris, etc, but for the most part everything he did came out of what he knew from Wing Chun and things he figured out himself.

The key to his success what not lifelong study of a martial art from birth to death, but rather his intense, intense conditioning. He was in incredible shape, which is a BIG factor in that kind of martial success, at least in my opinion.

I wasn't challenging his fighting ability. I was just surprised that that was all of his formal training I had heard a lot about Shaolin Temples, etc. etc. I agree though him being in shape was the key to his success

Originally posted by Angus
That's his only extended formal training. He continued to learn things here and there from other people, like Chuck Norris, etc, but for the most part everything he did came out of what he knew from Wing Chun and things he figured out himself.

The key to his success what not lifelong study of a martial art from birth to death, but rather his intense, intense conditioning. He was in incredible shape, which is a BIG factor in that kind of martial success, at least in my opinion.

What he figured out was, techniques are best keep simple and few. But you make them count by putting speed and power behind them. He discarded kata and patterns as pointless memorising of complex movements. He incorporated bodybuilding routines and plyometric workout into his training. Which gave him great speed and strength. Bruce Lee extracted from other styles only those techniques that could help him to prevail in combat. The key is what criteria you use to judge what is worth keeping and what is to discard. That became the JKD concepts. The set of techniques he taught became the Original JKD.


To say that he was good simply b/c he was in good shape, is gross understating of his knowledge in combat fighting.

i read somewhere that it take only 3-4 yrs to learn Wing Chun system as it has only 3 empty hand forms.
as compared to other Northern/southern system WC doesn't contain endless forms...
-TkdWarrior-

Yeah, I didn't say he was good because he was in good shape, I said it was a key to his success that people tend to overlook. I didn't say it was the only thing. ;)

Pure and simple fact, he didn't finish his training in Hong Kong. Does that seem detrimental to his future? No, but it's still true. Would it have been different if he did learn it all? Who knows. But it's still true.

There were many versions of stories why he didn't finish Wing Chung. Some had it that Yip Man's sponsors didn't want him to teach Wing Chung to Bruce whose mother was not pure Chinese. Yip Man was a habitual gambler and a lousy manager and his school's finance was largely supported by a group of patrons and his senior students. So he had no choice but to cut Lee loose. But he left his top student William Cheung to guide Lee.

Lee never learnt the top secret of WingChung, and according to hearsay (which I am sure all of what I am regurgitating here, is) he tried to bribe Yip Man to teach him that, at another time. But Yip Man refused.

JKD borrows heavily from WingChung. WingChung is a conceptual martial art. If you study WingChung's kicking concepts: Cleaving the center, Attacking the post, Attacking the weapon, and Obstructing the path, you would find that these are all JKD essence.

Would it have made any difference had he finished WingChung? Who knows. Lee definitely begged, borrowed and stole from any art that he could get his hands on. He didn't transplant all the WingChung techniques nor concepts neither. Even the widely known ChiSao was deemphasized shortly before he died. The reason was ChiSao was practically useless against someone like Kareem Abdul-Jabbar , as in the Game of Death.

I don't know about any bribe, but it is said that at one time, Lee tried to get Yip Man's permission to film him doing the dummy form. Yip Man refused. I don't recall ever hearing mention of a bribe in that situation. I believe it was Hawkins Cheung who said that once a student left Yip Man, Yip Man considered that former student to be a competitor, so wouldn't share any more information.

Even so, Lee always spoke highly of Yip Man, and though he found things he felt to be flaws with the system, he usually spoke highly of Wing Chun as well.

Cthulhu

he did gung fu when he was young than did wingchun but he was expelled from his school cause he was 1/4 german and racism was all the rage in china but i think it was good for him it made him train alone and he musty be one of the toughest fighters ever not the best though i would be hesitant to call anyone the best.
IMO wing chuin and gung fu are pretty good fighting styles but bruce lee added to them and took away from them to create a superior martial art (read as well rounded and street effective)

What type of Gung Fu did he do. Wing CHun is a form of Gung FU you know.

yeh i know i red that he did gung fu when he was young and wing chun when he got a little older i just assumed that by gungfu he meant a diiferent type of it

i always get confused between gung fu and kung fu whats the difference is gungfu southern and kung fu northern

i know gungfu is less fancy and more economical

Lee also studied a form of northern Shao-lin which is where he developed his kicks. Years ago, Taekwondo enthusiasts tried to infer that he'd trained in that art but it simply isn't true.

He had studied some western boxing and also some fencing (which he'd learned from his brother, I think).

I understand that he did try to bribe Yip Man into teaching him the third form and letting him film Yip doing the 108 Wooden Dummy techniques, but Yip turned him down.

I believe that if he hadn't got into movies (he had Ed Parker to thank for that), he would have just been another kung-fu teacher. Due to his Hollywood fame, Black Belt Magazine did numerous articles on him and these were later followed up by Inside Kung-Fu Magazine.
Bruce was actually beaten badly many times in his career, but the magazines wouldn't let that be known (nor would Bruce as it would detract from his image). Bobby Lowe's Kyokushin people in Hawaii crunched him badly and a well-known Uechi-Ryu group on the east coast also mauled him.
I personally know individuals (Chinese) who got along with him but who admitted to me that they'd witnessed him getting his tush beaten by several other martial arts people.....But that was kept very hush-hush and is still not widely known.

Could you provide sources for these claims? I'm sure this is the first time most of us have heard these stories.

Bruce never studied any other Chinese martial arts system for any appreciable period other than Wing Chun. He took some kicks and some forms from some 'Northern' kung fu systems, but never studied them with any of the seriousness in which he did WC.

It was some time before Bruce broke into the movies, starting in U.S. television first, then the Chinese movie market, and finally entering the U.S. movie market after his death.

He did not try to bribe Yip Man for the dummy movements, merely asked him if he could film him for his reference. Yes, Yip Man turned him down.

I'd love to hear objective testimony from these alleged 'crunching' or 'maulings' by other martial arts groups. I find it hard to believe them, since there are many who could have benefited by making these claims public during his life, and even after. Also, Bruce Lee never lived in Hawaii or the East Coast, spending his entire time in the U.S. in Washington or California, which really makes the claims of any east coast Uechi group suspect.

These are some extraordinary claims which will require extraordinary evidence if you want anyone to them seriously.

Cthulhu

Also Trained With Gene Lebell in Grappling & Judo
As well as Judo & Ju Jitsu with Wally Jay.

He was a Member of the Xavier Boxing team
in Hong Kong.
He Practise Fenceing with his brother Robert

He also recerched FMA with Dan Inosanto.

Now as far as Rank goes from what i know
he did not belive in it.

Also Bob 919 Were do U get German From????///
To My Knowlegde his parents were both Chinese

I agree that they do sound off the wall. But I don't have any trouble believing that Bruce Lee could have been beaten. I always thought he was overrated.

It is true that Lee never lived in Hawaii or on the east coast. However, one need not live in a given place in order to go there and train or practice fighting with other martial artists.

The Uechi group has actual photos of Lee getting swacked by their people in various matches. Their chief instructor, being the true gentleman and fine martial artist that he is, did not wish to tarnish the young man's reputation and never made these incidents public. Still hasn't. But he'll show you the photos if you go there.

He was soundly trounced in San Fransisco; the gentleman I spoke of who was a witness to it never wanted to hurt Bruce's image and everyone just kept quiet about it; especially after his passing. They do not wish to dishonor the dead.

Originally posted by yilisifu
It is true that Lee never lived in Hawaii or on the east coast. However, one need not live in a given place in order to go there and train or practice fighting with other martial artists.

The Uechi group has actual photos of Lee getting swacked by their people in various matches. Their chief instructor, being the true gentleman and fine martial artist that he is, did not wish to tarnish the young man's reputation and never made these incidents public. Still hasn't. But he'll show you the photos if you go there.

He was soundly trounced in San Fransisco; the gentleman I spoke of who was a witness to it never wanted to hurt Bruce's image and everyone just kept quiet about it; especially after his passing. They do not wish to dishonor the dead.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxx

Now why would Bruce ask to learn the 3rd form when all he ever learned was the first form!

Your second hand information is most likely false. Not to discredit your integrity. Second hand information is second hand information but who you get it from is what matters the most.

There are many people in this world who would dispute your facts, many of them who actually knew Bruce on a personal level.

There is no way that those defeats would of or could of been kept secret! About having to go to someones school to see the pics in person. Come on! They just happen to be taking pictures that day and nobody else has them!

"My" second hand information came from someone who actually spoke with Bruce after the the happened in OAKLAND NOT SAN FRANCISCO!! And the only witnesses were Linda Lee, James Lee and whoever showed up with Wong Jack Man. "Today" Wong Jack Man says that the fight was a tie and lasted 20 minutes. That comes from the actual "FIGHTER!" HE DIDN'T SAY HE WON! Never the less, Linda Lee disputes that! She was there! And my Sigung personally spoke to Bruce after the fight and Bruce stated that he was upset that the fight took too long, he needed to get in better shape because he had wasted a lot of energy chasing Wong Jack Man around the room before he tackeled Wong and pouned him on the ground! He said the fight lasted a couple of minutes and should of only lasted 30 seconds!

Of course this is still second hand information, but it is still pretty reliable.

http://www.geocities.com/Tao_Of_Gung_Fu/The_Nucleus_Of_Gung_Fu.html

There all people still alive that know the truth.

The incident to which I refer occured in San Fransisco, not Oakland. Linda Lee was not present. I will not reveal the name of the gentleman who was witness as he asked me not to do so. I will say, however, that his reputation both as a citizen and as a martial artist, is impeccable.

The pictures from the Uechi school are credible.

If you want to continue believing in fairy tales, that's your business. Bruce Lee was not the be-all, end-all of martial arts. He won some and he lost some.

Well said yilisifu he was not the greatest. He was another fighter who made average movies that were skyrocketed because he died. Sad but true.

Yes, it's sad but true. Without Ed Parker's help, Lee never would have made it into the television and then the movie industry. The martial arts media were also very instrumental in skyrocketing him to fame although they helped add to misunderstanding much of what he said and did.

Akja - Bruce learned Wing Chun's first two forms; not just the first one. You're mistaken.

The movie about his life story (endorsed by Linda Lee) is mostly hogwash. Lee injured his back by doing deadlifts incorrectly; not in a glorious fight with another kung-fu practicioner...

So much time has passed since his death that now there are a lot of fables and myths surrounding him.

Very good. Your right about all of the myths, a friend of mine think's bruce is the best of all time. I personally find that idea ridiculous.

I'm old enough to remember Bruce Lee. He was a bright fellow with a lot of natural ability. He was a grade B actor, had a poor attitude and hated to teach people who didn't understand martial arts movements as easily as he did (in fact, this is one of the major areas of difference he had with Mr. Parker).
He had an enormous ego (made worse by all the martial arts media fanfare), liked to chew cannibis, and cheated on his wife...
He loved his son, revered his parents, and always had the greatest respect for his primary teacher (Yip Man)...although Bill Cheung actually taught him most of the time.
He was not a god, he was not unbeatable, and he never entered competition because he said he was "too highly skilled" to do so. That kind of comment always makes me wonder.
He was an avid reader with a BA in philosophy and the book, Tao of Jeet Kune Do is actually compiled of notes which he discarded while doing research. Seems someone figured out how to make some bucks after his death.

Originally posted by yilisifu
He was an avid reader with a BA in philosophy and the book, Tao of Jeet Kune Do is actually compiled of notes which he discarded while doing research. Seems someone figured out how to make some bucks after his death.

Actually, Lee never got his degree. He left school with maybe a year or more yet to go on his degree.

Cthulhu

Would Love to see the Photos @@ 2
:mad: :asian: :mad:

The teacher who possesses them will not make them public; he's not that kind of person. He's a true gentleman who has no interest in bashing anyone's memory....but he really DOES have the photos. He's a very well known teacher; one of the best known in the U.S. and he has made it a point to avoid politics and all the rest of it...and done a fine job.

yilisifu,
You might be right about the second form but he only taught the first form in Seattle.

Second, Bruce would never pull his punches for a point tourney, he was at the beginning of his "self realization" of what worked and what didn't, you could not expect him to enter a fake competition and I never said he was the greatest and the movie industry in America didn't accept him until he was already a star making movies in Hong Kong which had nothing to do with Ed Parker.

The information I got was from someone who knew him, trained by him and trained privately by him.


I understand "INTEGRITY" but you can't use that as an excuse to not reveal your source!!! You open up the door, "QUOTING HIM," and BASING ALL OF YOUR FACTS ON HIS TRUTHFUL WORD!!!! WHO IS HE!!! The info. you appear to have is talk about if you want to see the pictures you have to travel to go and see them. YOUR FACTS ARE NOT FACTUAL AT ALL!!!!!!!!!

Whoever reads this is going to believe whatever they want anyway, so it dosen't really matter. But you shouldn't trash someone thats dead and who helped expose Americas eyes to Gung-Fu and helped start a flourishing martial art buisness that has boomed ever since.

Akja, calm down, son...I'm not trashing Bruce Lee. I'm simply telling the truth. If that hurts, I'm sorry. My facts ARE factual. And integrity is a great "excuse" for not revealing my sources. They do not wish to be made public and I respect their wishes.

I will not reveal my sources. End of that part of the statement.

Ed Parker was responsible for Lee getting into a television series which ultimately led to him getting into the Hong Kong movie industry. Without having had the prior TV experience and notoriety, I doubt that Run Run Shaw would have ever cast a second glance his way. Yes, I believe that Mr. Parker is indirectly responsible for Lee's entry into the Hong Kong movie industry.

Lee did absolutely nothing to encourage the growth of the martial arts industry here or anywhere else. He never held any competitive events, never conducted seminars of any kind (in fact, his private lessons ran over $80 per lesson which, in those days, was a LOT of money), only wrote a short book and a small pamphlet (most people know about the book but I have an original copy of the pamphlet).
Once he made it into the movies, he did not maintain his school (he was rarely there as an instructor) although some of his students did open clubs of their own.

He was one of the first kung-fu practicioners to perform before the American public and that's part of what made him famous. However, there were numerous other teachers (who were older and not as handsome as Lee) who did the same thing; Timmy Wong, Arthur Lee, Ark Wong, and others. They never made it big on TV or in themovies so they're not as famous.

I believe that the reason Lee did not compete is that he had everything to lose and nothing to win.
If he won, people would say, Oh well, he's the famous Bruce Lee. Of course he won!"
On the other hand, if he lost, he'd lose everything...especially his reputation.
I don't hold with the "self realization" line about what works and what doesn't.....I have known and trained with some of the finest karate masters and kung-fu teachers in the world. In the blink of an eye they could dispatch an opponent with ease. Yet, they also are skilled enough to pull their blows for the sake of safety when practicing. I don't understand why Lee could not have done the same thing.
No, I think he did the wisest thing. He simply didn't compete at all. It was the smartest move.

My point is simply that there are a lot of myths flying around regarding Bruce Lee. I simply wish to set the record straight, as I would about any well-known martial arts practicioner. Sometimes, when myths are shown for what they really are, it makes us uncomfortable, but that's part of the learning and maturing process.
:asian:

In this last post you came across as a "mature" martial artist, I did'nt see that in your other posts. I saw someone trashing my Sigungs Sifu.

Your right about "integrety" but so am I. Technically you did open the door but offered no actual proof accept a mans word. These people are just men, like Bruce and you and I. The pics aren't proof without authentication especially with todays technology.

We are all allowed to have our beliefs of what is true and what is not true but no matter what is said there are many more Gung-Fu men of that time who were "actually around Bruce" enough to know how well he performed and how he rated as a martial artist and the truth about the things that happened during his lifetime!!

Although I do know someone who was there. I wasn't there!

Actually, Lee had been involved in the Hong Kong movie industry since he was a baby, having various acting jobs up until he was 18. He was a moderately well-known child actor before he left for the U.S.

Cthulhu

Originally posted by Cthulhu
Actually, Lee had been involved in the Hong Kong movie industry since he was a baby, having various acting jobs up until he was 18. He was a moderately well-known child actor before he left for the U.S.

Cthulhu

To put things in perspective...

If I said I've seen video of a Tai Chi master splitting an engine block with his pinky-toe, but the unnamed person who owned the video wouldn't share it unless you travelled to an undisclosed location, you'd all think I was full of dookie.

Without knowing the names of the people in the Uechi group, and not being able to see these images for ourselves without risking financial expenses to go someplace (which we can't do because a place or name hasn't been given), of course people will be skeptical.

I am not discounting your claim, merely explaining why others would naturally have some doubts.

:asian:

Cthulhu

I understand and respect that. But I cannot break my pledge to my friends, either.
Thanks for listening, anyway.

Originally posted by yilisifu
I understand and respect that. But I cannot break my pledge to my friends, either.
Thanks for listening, anyway.

Bruce Always Gave to M.A. & He is
The Reason Many Even Do M.A.

Y Would This So Called Master Show U These Photos
& No One else?/. Oh Yeah U Said He Would show any one
Who Wish To See???

Bruce Lee WaZ & always will Be a Great Martial Artist.

On another forum of Lee being beat in point sparring while in Pasedena. The sources are credible and I have little reason to belive it.

IMO Lee is not the god many make him out to be. He was human. He didn't have the best technique, he wasn't the fastest (There's always someone faster) and watching his movies today you can see flaws. Depending on where you take your martial arts and why, his book series comes off as arrogent and not that helpful. I've heard when you go into Hollywood you need to make a decision, you can be a Martial Artist or an Actor, but not both. Again IMO Lee is a spot on the blotter of the world of martial arts, a noticible spot, but nothing more. And he's dead.

IMO, you should reread his books again before making ridiculous comment.

Bruce Lee changed the martial art world and openned it to the Western world. His concepts in cross training are universally accepted and adopted across most schools.

Bruce Lee broke the tradition and was certainly one of the greatest martial artists of all time. His training concepts are applicable across all styles and disciplines. Some people say his techniques sucked. So what? He could hit faster and harder.

Originally posted by yilisifu
It is true that Lee never lived in Hawaii or on the east coast. However, one need not live in a given place in order to go there and train or practice fighting with other martial artists.

The Uechi group has actual photos of Lee getting swacked by their people in various matches. Their chief instructor, being the true gentleman and fine martial artist that he is, did not wish to tarnish the young man's reputation and never made these incidents public. Still hasn't. But he'll show you the photos if you go there.

He was soundly trounced in San Fransisco; the gentleman I spoke of who was a witness to it never wanted to hurt Bruce's image and everyone just kept quiet about it; especially after his passing. They do not wish to dishonor the dead.

Picture or no picture, no reasonable person would believe that any person invincible. People may pick fights or competitions carefully to manage an undefeated record. That is just good career management.

"his book series comes off as arrogent and not that helpful"

I wasn't aware of a book series, I knew he published one book in the 60s but all the others came out after his death, most of the info was from his notes from when he was injured in 1970. Alot of it was "out dated" by the time he died. But also I would point out again most of the info wasn't realy intended to go into a book but were realy his study notes.

And I tihnk his mother was 1/2 or 1/4 german.

"his book series comes off as arrogent and not that helpful"

If you are talking about the book series "BRUCE LEE's Fighting Methods" Volumes 1-4 then you should understand that Bruce Lee did not write these books. The text was written by Mitoshi Uyehara who at the time was the editor-in-chief of Black Belt magazine and a good friend of Bruce Lee.

Lee agreed to pose for the pictures and Uyehara wrote the actual text. This information was passed on by Steve Golden on of the first-generation Bruce Lee students in the LA era.

Thanks
Jeremy Bays

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm
IMO, you should reread his books again before making ridiculous comment.

Yup that's your opinion and you're entitled to it. Ridiculous or not as am I. My advice is look into some of the very very early asian writings and you'll see nothing that was said was new, and some of it blatently plaguerized.

As far as his fighting methods go, why would he call them "His books" pose for the pictures, and have the text be written by someone else? I'm just curious. I guess when reading his books, or books that claim to be his, and in light of this discussion, I understand are not, are simply if you step back and look at them objectivly you see he has, according to the books, a very interesting fighting method. So if not JKD shown, what is it?

Bruce Lee made tremenduous amount of innovation in JKD. You obviously don't have a clue there, for you to make this ridiculous claim that he plagialized from other publications. :rolleyes: JKD borrowed its fighting concepts from WingChun. That is hardly plagiarizing. Bruce Lee's primary martial art was WingChun. But I doubt this is what you were referring to. Btw, what are these " very very early asian writings" ? Care to enlighten us there? Please give us some examples.

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm
Btw, what are these " very very early asian writings" ? Care to enlighten us there? Please give us some examples.

A lot of Bruce's writings, particularly the more philosophical quotes, are either paraphrased from Taoist and Buddhist texts, or direct copies.

What he did was apply them to a martial arts context. One must remember that he was a philosophy student in college.

Cthulhu

I think bandying the term "plaguerized" around, re: Lee's books, is a little off target, even though its a given that he did make use of earlier texts - plaguerism is re-presenting someone else's work as your own, which is naughty. Making references to things that have gone before, however, is not plaguerism - just smart - who wants to reinvent the wheel just to make commentary on how best it can be used?

That is all Lee did in the Tao....make commentary on how, in his opinion, many things already extant could best be used. Its a good book. I recommend it. Is it the soveriegn text of our art? no...and i dont think Lee intended it would be.

The Tao, IMHO, is an excellent synthesis of technique, training methods and philosophy.

As for whether Lee could beat up Superman....who really gives a $h!t? He was a smart guy. He was a skilled artist. He had some ideas about martial arts. He wrote some books about them.

Smoke 'em if u got 'em.

Bruces influences in the martial arts are widespread and whats wrong is the way people don't give him his props! Numerous systems today have been created or modified from traditional based on Bruces concepts and technical prowess!

To name a couple John Pellegrines Combat Hapkido. Do you think he would of made that drastic of changes without what bruce already put in place! Gary Dills Bushido kempo was created from the technical aspects of Jeet Kune Do! Many many more have followed suit including me! I have the right, because I've put my time in! And my "TRAINING" downline from Bruce has changed "MY ART" forever!!!

Talk is cheap! If you haven't actually experienced "Bruces Art" first hand, you should keep your trap shut!

Originally posted by akja
Talk is cheap! If you haven't actually experienced "Bruces Art" first hand, you should keep your trap shut!
Yup, and here we have an exellent example ladies and gentleman! Thank you kind sir, please tell us more?

I HAVE experienced his "art" firsthand. I agree with Hollywood. If Lee's ideas influenced you, that's fine...........for you. Lee's ideas were seriously mis-stated and/or misinterpreted by the martial arts magazines of the day and this had led to a good deal of confusion about what he did and did not advocate.

He was a fair actor - not really top of the line. He was a good martial artist but he never really said much that was different from Wing Chun's standard party line.

IMO Lee is not the god many make him out to be. He was human. He didn't have the best technique, he wasn't the fastest (There's always someone faster) and watching his movies today you can see flaws. Depending on where you take your martial arts and why, his book series comes off as arrogent and not that helpful. I've heard when you go into Hollywood you need to make a decision, you can be a Martial Artist or an Actor, but not both. Again IMO Lee is a spot on the blotter of the world of martial arts, a noticible spot, but nothing more. And he's dead


in the movies he was just doing the showy stuff we know he aint no god but in real fighting he would never do high kicks and stuck to simple effective tools such as the straight blast.
watching his movies is a very bad way of judging the way he fights; incase you didn't know, what you see in movies usually isn't real

Yes, what Lee did in the movies, was not (by his own admission) how he "really" fought at all.

The nunchakus he used in Enter the Dragon weren't real; they were rubber (he injured himself with the real ones because he'd never used this weapon before).....he DID learn how to use them very well, however.

And the bottle held by his opponent in the fight scene in the courtyard was made of safety glass because he cut himself when they did the original scene with real glass.

Originally posted by Hollywood1340
Yup, and here we have an exellent example ladies and gentleman! Thank you kind sir, please tell us more?

I've stated it before my Sigung teaches "ORIGINAL" teachings of Bruce and James Lee. NOT THE CONCEPTS! They have expanded upon the original but its not mixerd up like the concepts.

Bruce and James Lee to Felix Macias Sr. to Felix Macias Jr. to Me!
Thats what I'm talking about. You guys "DWELL" on "MOVIES" whats that. And quit thinking that you guys opinions are "BETTER" than the publications such as Black Belt, Inside Kung-Fu and all the rest that to this day give him his due credit. Get off that.

Yilisifu, who gave you firsthand experience? Or you can't disclose your sources again!

http://oakland.jkd.com.hk/
Click the students link, my Sigung is there. wheres your Yilisifu?

http://www.geocities.com/Tao_Of_Gung_Fu/The_Nucleus_Of_Gung_Fu.html

DO YOU THINK THAT DAN INOSANTOS ORGANIZATION WOULD BE WHAT IS IF HE NEVER MET BRUCE? DAN EXPANDED GREATLY, BUT HE HIMSELF GIVES MUCH CREDIT TO BRUCE TO CHANGING HIS OUTLOOK ON THE MARTIAL ARTS! HAVE YOU SEEN HIM TEACH AN AMERICAN KENPO CLASS LATELY? NO!

Bruce's primary concern was to be a movie star.

But he sure could hit fast and hit hard, much better than most.

BICKERING SUCKS!!

I may of come out to hard!

HOLLYWOOD. I stuck your lineage in there on purpose! Because you directly talked down "MY LINEAGE!" Simple as that. As far respect in the arts, OBVIOUSLY ON THE NET THERE ISN'T ANY but in the DOJO, DOJANG OR KWOON that is something that comes from many years experience amongst your peers.

In the dojo, no rank is really recognized until you reach Sankyu!
Hollywood, where your at IN RANK today (Combat Hapkido-8th Gup, Kodokan Judo-4th Kyu ) I was over 20 years ago!

Granted I don't know you, you may be the next Pedro Rizzo, who knows, but my lineage has gotten trashed a bit by nothing but words, talk about movies and books. The notes for those books were taken between 30-40 years ago! Of course we've grown as a martial art community!

YILISIFU. Not by lineage, but by the martial art world in general, you are my senior! But I'm not that much younger than you and you too have directly talked down my lineage! I see you have much experience! So why would you use movies and magazines as proof? You should know better!

RESPECT GOES ALONG WAY IN THIS WORLD and it must be earned and that is why I'm writing this now.

I do have problems with people going about character assasination of a dead person (or a living person) using hearsay but refusing to offer proof. Pretty low, if you ask me. But I doubt that is YiliSifu's intent.

As for other people who do not know anything about Bruce Lee's martial art but yet offer their opinions, it is a free country. Just expect to be rebutted.

Is there a big difference between what Felix Macias' system of JKD and Dan Inosanto's? I'm currently learning Dan Inosanto's system, and I'mjust curious as to what I might be missing out on.

Respect.
:asian:

Inosantos is the Concepts method and has evolved quite a bit. Macias method is Original Jun Fan Gung-Fu as taught by James Lee expanded upon by Felix Macias Sr. and by Felix Macias Jr., hope that helps.

So the concepts are ideas gathered after Lee's death, i understand that. Another question for you, if you would be so kind... is do the concepts exclude the orgignal teachings of Lee? Or are they built upon the ideas of Lee? I'm just a little confused as to how these to variations of the art are divided.
:asian:

[B]BICKERING SUCKS!!

I may of come out to hard!

HOLLYWOOD. I stuck your lineage in there on purpose! Because you directly talked down "MY LINEAGE!" Simple as that. As far respect in the arts, OBVIOUSLY ON THE NET THERE ISN'T ANY but in the DOJO, DOJANG OR KWOON that is something that comes from many years experience amongst your peers.

In the dojo, no rank is really recognized until you reach Sankyu!
Hollywood, where your at IN RANK today (Combat Hapkido-8th Gup, Kodokan Judo-4th Kyu ) I was over 20 years ago

Good for you sir, you've been at it longer then I have. And yet since I talk you down you talk me down? I'd expect that from others on this board, but no certianly from some on in the arts for over twenty years. And the rank when I'm on board is blue, my RW rank is a non issue, unless, as has happened here, is called. Yes, I am a lower rank then you, so I'll defer to you're knowledge. But I still hold my thoughts, and my opinions on JKD, to be mine, regardless. And no, I've never pulled own your lineage. How did I to that if I may ask? I simply stated what I thought of Bruce and the Martial Artas, and I untitled to my opinion, as I stated in my post. Altough you were on the money. My SGM is a JKD iinstcutor as well, yo you're point is valid.

Granted I don't know you, you may be the next Pedro Rizzo, who knows, but my lineage has gotten trashed a bit by nothing but words, talk about movies and books. The notes for those books were taken between 30-40 years ago! Of course we've grown as a martial art community!

Never said we hadn't, or didn't.

The concepts were Bruces concepts on training to discover "your truth in martial arts", they are concepts that the individual can adapt and use as needed.

The only differances are that the "JKD Concepts" people contiually add and subtract and modify as needed.

The "Original JKD" people teach based off of the original Jeet Kune Do physical techniques and branch off from there. They do add and modify as needed, they just don't add so much technique from other arts that it dosen't resemble the original JKD anymore.

All JKD is differant depending on who you learn it from. Some people think that you can teach yourself JKD. That isn't true. What they are doing is skipping through the "JKD process" of self discovery and going to the final steps and calling it JKD. Thats not how it was taught, so to use the name it should be taught right.

To use the JKD name you should first learn Jun Fan Gung-Fu from a qualified instructor. Whatever he teaches you becomes yours to adapt, modify as needed to "fit you." The problems that arrive is instructors modify quite a bit and they teach. Its OK to teach the new modifications but some leave out the original Jun Fan Gung-Fu, the starting point. So in essence the student (unknowingly) is skipping through the "process" also.

If your learning the Inosanto method you will learn Jun Fan Gung-Fu and the expanded JKD. If you are learning from Inosanto lineage but from a student of Dans or a student of a student of Dans then who knows.

But I know that Dan has got to be the highest authority on Jeet Kune Do, thats a given.

"My Art" is all mine and it is differant thats OK, it works for me!

Hollywood,
we have something in common, we have the same first name, James, the name that was given to Jesus brother, so you've got to be a great guy!


We all have opinions that are valid "depending on whos listening."
Thats the problem, the urge to be right. Its all after the fact and a lot of the time I get caught up in things and the next day I think of myself as a fool. No kidding, sometimes we type faster than our brains!

Realistically, I trained Hapkido, for a short time, when I was a teenager under O Nam Ku in Fremont, Ca., he was old school, not much like what you see today. What your SGM has done to Hapkido is a great thing, if it wasn't then Korea wouldn't of recognized Combat Hapkido as an official "Kido" art!

I thought Jun Fan was what he taught before he founded Jeet Kune Do. JKD should be the successor to Jun Fan. Why bother with Jun Fan when you have the upgraded version called JKD?

Who are you really learning from?

Nobody. It is not my art.

I just read the following article and there was no mentioning of Jun Fan.

http://www.cfw2.com/article.asp?s=cfw&content_id=1372

Good article but to short to go into detail but you see how he mentioned about it getting to diluted!

Think of it like this, if all the branches on the tree are different, then how do you choose who has the correct new and improved system?

Ted Wong was one of Bruce Lee's later students, and didn't go through the different developmental periods or really experience any of the other 'states' of Lee's development like James Lee, Taky Kimura, or Dan Inosanto. Further, Wong was one of the few students of Lee's who had no prior martial arts training.

Cthulhu

Felix Macias Sr. was James Lees student in Gung-Fu before his Jeet Kune Do but he pretty much learned it all from James only and not other schools. But I can say for sure that Felix Jr. only leaned from his father and nobody else! He's unique in that respect and a bad dude too!

the genral consensus here seems to be that junfan gung fu is a martial art and JKD is a philosophy i just call it all JKD my self

Originally posted by bob919
the genral consensus here seems to be that junfan gung fu is a martial art and JKD is a philosophy i just call it all JKD my self

Pretty much everybody calls it JKD at least as far as the thinking from the outsiders.

Mine is modified to work for me based on my experinence. My personal expression I call Kempo Jujitsu. I have a student that asks me every now and then are we going to work on JKD or Kempo. He sees a line drawn between the two instead of seeing the two as one!

I've explained to him many times what my art is about but I guess his "blinders are on" and he might not grasp it until he has more exosure to the JKD world. He dosen't realize that the name I choose is just the best closest description of my art meaning Kempo, "fist law" and Jujitsu, "the gentle way!" I have experience in many arts including Kempo and Jujitsu and JKD is a "base" behind the scenes but it is not the "whole." Personally I hardly use the word JKD because all JKD is so differant and my Sifu feels that JKD is becoming watered down. I guess he would consider mine watered down too.

JKD means a lot of differant things to differant people and they dissagree to much about what it really means or the way it was intended to be. Thats probably why my Sigung chose to start his own "Branch on the Tree!"

"mediocre movies"

Have you seen the other Kung Fu flicks of the era? They don't really stand up to today's stuff, production wise, but I think they were revolutionary for the time. There's a reason then broke box office records back then.

It's kind of refreshing to watch them now, I'm getting sick of wire work movies.


As far as martial arts, and how good the man was? There's evidence of his strength and speed in training film footage. I wish there was more evidence of his actual fights around. Without those, I can't say he was the "best" as many do. The rest is anectodal evidence.

The same goes the other way, without evidence to the contrary. Hearsay isn't good enough. I'm skeptical about these stories of Mr. Lee being beaten so badly. But, it's possible.

Something that isn't in question, apparently, is his defeat of Mr. Man in Chinatown. This challenger was the best of the Chinatown martial artists. He was running. So there's a good chance he was the best in Chinatown (possible Mr. Man was having an off day).

As far as his WC training. I believe he learned Siu Lim Tao, Chum Kil, and half of the Dummy set. As far as bribing Yip Man, according to Yip Man's son, Yip Chun (maybe corroborated by Bill Cheung?), he offered him a new apartment in exchange for the filming.

I'm very curious to know what JKD would have looked like if he learned Biu Jee. I wouldn't be surprised to have seen more elbows.

Was he the best? We will never know for sure, but he was REALLY, REALLY good, and the best that a lot of people have seen.

Originally posted by Mormegil ......Have you seen the other Kung Fu flicks of the era? They don't really stand up to today's stuff, production wise, but I think they were revolutionary for the time. There's a reason then broke box office records back then.

It's kind of refreshing to watch them now, I'm getting sick of wire work movies.
.....

So true! Watching a martial art movie with all the impossible stunt, is truly boring. If I want to watch special effect and wirework, I'll go for Spiderman and Superman stuffs. Even the X-Men is not as insulting as martial artists flying around with steel wire. :mad:

yeah, that's why I like some of the oldr movies. They have long wide shots of what's going on, they don't cut on every punch, you can actualy see what is going on and I think the longer shots like that are alot more interesting to watch wether or not you are into martial arts..

As to the wires, everyone knows when wires are in use, people just don't obay the laws of physics properly.. they don't accelerate fast enough to move that high or hang to long or something else, that just bugs thehell out of me.. it turns incredably unlikely fiction into total fantasy.

Originally posted by sweeper


As to the wires, everyone knows when wires are in use, people just don't obay the laws of physics properly.. they don't accelerate fast enough to move that high or hang to long or something else, that just bugs thehell out of me.. it turns incredably unlikely fiction into total fantasy.

I agree. I don't mind wires in "fantasy" though. I really enjoyed Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon. For some reason, when it's a period piece it's not so bad. Though, the tree scene was pushing it.

well yeah, I liked the matrix also, but both of those movies had much longer shots in the fight sequences, it wasn't chopped all up.

To see Bruce Lee's movies, i rather see X-Men2, Spiderman, Hulk, DareDevil, Jurassic Park, and many others, even worse than these are better than lees movies.
He was just a skinny (lol someone said he was a bodybuilder), fast, and ugly guys, that knows Kung Fu. So Just a MOVIE STAR.

Originally posted by Infight
To see Bruce Lee's movies, i rather see X-Men2, Spiderman, Hulk, DareDevil, Jurassic Park, and many others, even worse than these are better than lees movies.
He was just a skinny (lol someone said he was a bodybuilder), fast, and ugly guys, that knows Kung Fu. So Just a MOVIE STAR.

Dude, you're just begging to pick a fight here aren't you? Well, before the flamefest begins, I should like to suggest that you actually read up on Bruce Lee. Learning isn't a bad thing you know.

And why exactly is Jurassic Park in that list of comic-book movies? There's no comparison there at all. You know what, don't bother answering that. I don't care.

Hi Pal!
Since you asked ! It was not a list of comic book films, its a special effects films, see Jo Napalm post.
Sorry if i cant learn about Bruce Lee, cause i dont like to access Hollywood site, ya know, i rather see martial art sites and HPs, lol.

Originally posted by Infight
Hi Pal!
Since you asked ! It was not a list of comic book films, its a special effects films, see Jo Napalm post.
Sorry if i cant learn about Bruce Lee, cause i dont like to access Hollywood site, ya know, i rather see martial art sites and HPs, lol.

What you don't understand is that the movies we're not his real martial art. He did not teach high kicks or anything fancy for that matter.

You have to look deeper to get the truth!
Try a real source. Would you look for information on BJJ in Hollywood? I did't think so.:D

Thx Lord! I hope never find BJJ in Hollywood, unfornatly that happened, in Lethal Weapon, but hope never more find anything related, cause i hope it lasts as a respectfull martial art for eternity, not as happened to Kung Fu, or anything related [ but there is a great difference, kung fu was never a respectfull ma ( in my humble opinion, its more a flex demonstration than ma)thats why it needed to go to movies ].

what part of lethal weapon involed BJJ ? I have seen all of them but don't recal any BJJ in it..

The end fight sequence in Lethal Weapon 1 was choreographed by Rorion Gracie, but it was edited so horribly that you'd never know it by watching.

ok so it wasn't realy bjj than.

Of course it was (unfortunatly), the scum guy was submited by a triangle choke.

maybe I'll have to watch it again, I just don't remember the ending much.

I am always fascinated by Bruce Lee and people's perception of him as the greatest martial artist of all time. Did he have skill? Yes. Did he influence many people in the arts? Yes. Was he the greatest martial artist of all time ? No!

What you see on the movie screen is the movies. not reality. I am very much acquainted with the east coast Uechi Sensei and I have also seen photos of Lee in the late 60's after his Green Hornet series. He was often working with other arts to gather ideas and Uechi was one of them as it is a southern chinese art that is associated with close in combat and efficient movement. The Uechi seniors he spared with were not trying to embarrass Lee, the photos where simply a documentation for study. The Uechi Sensei keep out of politics and the arguments on this forum are proof as to their judgements. Lee had real difficulty in angular attacks and found himself on his butt more than once when he kicked high. As for his fist striking, his hands were caught and he was trapped and arm locked often during these photo shoots.

You can also tell by looking at his techniques both then and now, that he had very little comprehension of Kyusho as his foot placement is absolutely incorrect and significantly negates the effectiveness of the strike.

There are only a handfull of martial artists that know the old ways and the true applications of their arts. I suggest we study with the living and not the dead.

Seibukan Jake

May be so, but Lee was a pioneer at a time when martial art was NOT taught to non-Chinese, and even NOT to Chinese who were out side of the particular clan. Lee brought new changes to the MA world and opened the door to new concepts and new ideas. Today, most of his concepts and ideas are adopted or independently discovered by others.

You are correct that there is no such thing as the greatest martial artist of all time. Such title is nothing more than a subjective opinion.

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm
May be so, but Lee was a pioneer at a time when martial art was NOT taught to non-Chinese, and even NOT to Chinese who were out side of the particular clan. Lee brought new changes to the MA world and opened the door to new concepts and new ideas. Today, most of his concepts and ideas are adopted or independently discovered by others.

You are correct that there is no such thing as the greatest martial artist of all time. Such title is nothing more than a subjective opinion.

That is true. No one person can claim the title of the greatest, nor should it be given to them after their death.

Thats not the issue. The REAL issue is what he taught and how he taught. 30 years after his death, his concepts and philosiphies and techniques are still being taught.

Many people have made "(after death) claims" about beating certain people and "claim" to have "photos."

Without "proof" its just more talk, same as before.

Like I've stated, my Sigung new Bruce personally. So why would I believe something that can't be proved.

We have to understand here. Its the word of my Sigung or the word of a "keyboard commando".:rolleyes:

Who am I going to believe?:D

Originally posted by Infight
Thx Lord! I hope never find BJJ in Hollywood, unfornatly that happened, in Lethal Weapon, but hope never more find anything related, cause i hope it lasts as a respectfull martial art for eternity, not as happened to Kung Fu, or anything related [ but there is a great difference, kung fu was never a respectfull ma ( in my humble opinion, its more a flex demonstration than ma)thats why it needed to go to movies ].

Kickboxer 4. One of the Machado brothers was in it and using BJJ.

Machado is a great fighter, im just sorry he got involved in a movie production with BJJ (if it was just for money, there is no problem!)

Originally posted by Seibukan Jake
Lee had real difficulty in angular attacks and found himself on his butt more than once when he kicked high. As for his fist striking, his hands were caught and he was trapped and arm locked often during these photo shoots.

You can also tell by looking at his techniques both then and now, that he had very little comprehension of Kyusho as his foot placement is absolutely incorrect and significantly negates the effectiveness of the strike.




You cannot accurately judge Bruce Lee's fighting techniques by what happened at a photo shoot. In a real life self defense situation or in a real fight with a *Uechi Senior*, I highly doubt that he would have high kicked or made excessive use of his hands until he had exhausted all of his other options. Also, who is qualified to judge whether or not his foot placement was "absolutely incorrect"?
I apologize if I caused any hard feelings here, and this certainly wasn't intended to be a personal attack on Seibukan Jake.
I would also like to state that I don't consider myself to be one of those "self appointed experts" on Bruce Lee. This post is purely my opinion.

Jeff

Bruce did alot for MA's in North america, and perhaps around the world. I think he is a little over rated. Whenever a famous person with lots of potential dies a sudden unexpected death, he/she is catapulted up to a much higher status. people raise them up to there potential when they die. Of course no one talks badly about the dead, expecialy if its someone they knew. The fact that he was in movies would help to bread these tall tales about bruce.

there is example of how chuck norris tought bruce about the effectiveness o highf kicking. this happened during a friendly sparring match where chuck kept tagging druce...

how did bruce come to the conclusion high kicks where not as effective? Most logical answer in my opinion is that bruce could not use them effectivly, so of course, if you cant use them effectivly why should you use them at all? Can some people use high kicks effectivly? sure. Personaly i agree with Bruce about high kicks.

was bruce a good martial artist? yes he was good.

did he revolutionize how people see martial arts? yes.

he was a good man, who had some good ideas, who passed them down to his students.

Because the fact that JKD would have most likely kept evolving if bruce had lived, I think Akja is absolutly right in saying you should study janfan gung fu (i think i go the right name) as a base before saying you study, or practice JKD.

If bruce lee wasn't famous for his movies would his art be so highly regarded? probably not.

JKD's not perfect, but there are still some things that we can take from it.

anyway thats just my two cents.

thanks

what are you babbling about.
Your Ignorance of martial arts is glaringly obvious.
First let me address your so called photo evidence - where is it and how come NO ONE else has seen these supposed photos?

Come on man its the year 2003 - take a digital photo of the photo & digitize out the faces you dont want to be seen then post them. Barring that - stop saying you've seen these photos because without them all you are is some internet warrior wannbe airing his sour grapes.
I mean really dude, I could say I have photos of JFK, Lee harvey Oswald & J.Edgar Hoover at Sloppy Joes Bar in Key West so that proves the JFK assassination was a conspiracy, But unless I show them its all BULLS**T!

In your speaking of Mr. Lee's "very little comprehension of Kyusho" what does a Okinawan technique/footwork have to do with a completely different style of martial arts footwork? example - I could state that from my point of view (Muay Thai) its obvious that Uechi Ryu has absolutely no concept of how to generate power for a round kick. I am basing this on my limited knowledge of Uechi Ryu that I have seen in photos showing key techniques.

And the part that really gets me in your ignorant diatribe - Bruce Lee's arms & hands were trapped (TRAPPED?!) by an Okinawan stylist?!!! You dont really have any idea of what the Wing Chun system entails do ya?

anyway - believe what you want, but dont offer opinions and judgement based on the fantasies you have created to help you deal with things.

I wish you good luck
Rob

I want to make a quick evaluation. Its been posted Bruce was "regular", "great", just a man.....etc.

At the time of Bruces death in 1973 I was a beginner, some of us were not training yet, some of us were not even born yet and others have been training since long before I was born.

Also at the time of Bruces death the martial arts in America was not that advanced, it basically was pretty much what was passed down from the traditional instructor although there are exceptions.

Along came a visionary who saw things in a differant light and walked his own path. "At that time" I doubt "VERY MUCH" that there were very many "great" martial artist like Bruce.

I did not say there were none. I'm saying the martial arts were not evolving at an excessive rate until after Bruce left us his legacy.

Originally posted by akja
I want to make a quick evaluation. Its been posted Bruce was "regular", "great", just a man.....etc.

At the time of Bruces death in 1973 I was a beginner, some of us were not training yet, some of us were not even born yet and others have been training since long before I was born.

Also at the time of Bruces death the martial arts in America was not that advanced, it basically was pretty much what was passed down from the traditional instructor although there are exceptions.

Along came a visionary who saw things in a differant light and walked his own path. "At that time" I doubt "VERY MUCH" that there were very many "great" martial artist like Bruce.

I did not say there were none. I'm saying the martial arts were not evolving at an excessive rate until after Bruce left us his legacy.

The were some very important exceptions without whom Mr. Lee likely would have remained unknown.

Certainly all of us who look to Edmund Parker for our inspiration feel that this is true. If you look at martial arts in the United States you can see that it's rapid expansion predates Bruce Lee. Judo, Karate, Korean Martial arts were already starting to grow prior to Bruce Lee's introduction to America. The Phillipino arts were growing by the late 60's independent of Mr. Lee's influence. Judo and Karate were already a part of the James bond Movies.

Mr. Parker introduced the young Bruce Lee to an America already hungry for new approaches to Martial Arts. Mr. Parker saw things in a different light and walked his own path long before Mr. Lee. But so did Joe Lewis, and many others in multiple other arts.

The one thing Mr. Lee clearly did was create an American market for asian martial arts Movies.

Mr Lee did not trigger the explosion in martial arts but certainly he appeared at the right time to gain notoriety and to help spread the word.

Originally posted by Kenpodoc
The were some very important exceptions without whom Mr. Lee likely would have remained unknown.

Certainly all of us who look to Edmund Parker for our inspiration feel that this is true. If you look at martial arts in the United States you can see that it's rapid expansion predates Bruce Lee. Judo, Karate, Korean Martial arts were already starting to grow prior to Bruce Lee's introduction to America. The Phillipino arts were growing by the late 60's independent of Mr. Lee's influence. Judo and Karate were already a part of the James bond Movies.

Mr. Parker introduced the young Bruce Lee to an America already hungry for new approaches to Martial Arts. Mr. Parker saw things in a different light and walked his own path long before Mr. Lee. But so did Joe Lewis, and many others in multiple other arts.

The one thing Mr. Lee clearly did was create an American market for asian martial arts Movies.

Mr Lee did not trigger the explosion in martial arts but certainly he appeared at the right time to gain notoriety and to help spread the word.

I'm not going to discount Ed Paker, thats why I sai there were exceptions. But the '60s martial arts were changing compared to the '40's and '50's but I don't feel that history shows the "evolution" that I was referring to. By that I mean accepting "change", like our martial ancestors did long ago and are doing again now.

There were many great martial artists of that time, but not many of them were pioneering "using what is useful", but they were mastering what they learned and building from that while staying within the original structure of what they were taught.

Kenpo has a lot of history and Ed did it good. I spent most of the '70's in Kajukenbo and Kaju is a brother to Kenpo. Kajukenbo has been evolving ever since its creation.

The '60's had an M.A. explosion, but the '70's explosion "in my opinion" had a bigger effect on the M.A. community.
My statement wasn't singling out Bruce as the best. It was headed in response to those who feel Bruce didn't do much because they base their opinions on movies.