Concerning the Tracy's studios in my area, all of them specialize in private instruction. Is it like this for the entire organization?

I get the idea behind this, in that students learn better/quicker when it's one-on-one lessons. To me the only problem w/this is the pricing fees. For the short time I studied kenpo, I was paying $40 a week. While you can attend as many group classes outside of your private lessons as you wish, $40 a week is a pretty hefty base price for me (particularly because I'm a poor college kid).

What do you guys have to say?

Spartan

I know that Tracy's does tend to recommend private lessons in addition to groups, but in my own experience with two different schools, this was not the reality. My schools have always had rather small groups tho, so you definitely could get private, or almost private instruction from the teacher during the training sessions.

I suppose pricing would be somewhat dependent on the economy in the region. Some people are willing and capable of paying a premium for something and others are not, and just where that threshold lies can vary quite a lot.

Are you happy with the school and the instructor and the material? If so, are you capable of paying the fees, even if it's difficult?

If the answer to the first question is "no", then look for someone else.

If the answer to the first question is "yes", but the second is "no", then perhaps discuss it with your teacher and see if some reasonable middle ground can be reached. If not, you might just be out of luck.

Finances suck, especially when it stands in the way of doing something you are passionate about...

There have been other threads discussing cost of classes and cost/benefit ratios. From discussions with other areas, it seems that between $100-$150 a month is about average these days. While $160/month is higher than average, you must calculate the quality of the private instruction.

To me with a family, student loans, two car payments and a house note, $160 a month is just a bit more than I can personally spare in my budget.

Regarding the Tracy style of teaching, though...I can't comment...no experience in that realm.

You may learn the motion better in private, but it takes a group(villiage) to experience and master application.
Sean

Concerning the Tracy's studios in my area, all of them specialize in private instruction. Is it like this for the entire organization?

I get the idea behind this, in that students learn better/quicker when it's one-on-one lessons. To me the only problem w/this is the pricing fees. For the short time I studied kenpo, I was paying $40 a week. While you can attend as many group classes outside of your private lessons as you wish, $40 a week is a pretty hefty base price for me (particularly because I'm a poor college kid).

What do you guys have to say?

Spartan

I would ask about the possibility of taking a private every other week, and continue coming to groups. Mr. Tracy was suggesting that some of his busier schools follow that model a few years back.

I always benifitted from the private instruction as well as my group classes,but I agree sometimes $40 a week is steep

While it might take me longer to progress w/ just 2 privates a month, I could be just as good of a martial artists in the long run, right?

How many lessons a week do you guys go to on average?

My instructor is loosely associated with Tracy's, and he also does private instruction for 100$ an hour.
But the class itself does not cost, outside of gym membership. I think that is left up to the instructor.
Incidently, I noticed you did Jeet Kune do prior to Tracy's, or you still are studying it? Do you think Kenpo, and Jeet Kune do are compatible?

Karatedrifter7,
I'm still studying jkd. Most of my training is actually in the grappling arts (bjj/sambo), so right now I'm trying to hone my stand-up skills. The place I study jkd at has very thorough instruction (they works us hard), and it only cost $55 a month for 4 times a week. While I prefer kenpo, it's better than not having any stand-up skills at all.

Concerning compatibility, I'm not sure. The techniques that we learn are mostly boxing/muay thai, with a little Filipino work. To be honest, I think it would be easier for a kenpo guy to go into jkd, than the reverse. From what I've seen, kenpo provides a stuctural versatility that allows its practitoners to easily employ other techniques. Jkd shools, while philosophically progressive, seem to use a very limited amount of techniques. Guys who really seem to flourish, are those who have trained traditional styles and, after advancing, begin to employ the philosophies.

Spartan

While it might take me longer to progress w/ just 2 privates a month, I could be just as good of a martial artists in the long run, right?

How many lessons a week do you guys go to on average?

I always took one private each week and attended typically 10 group classes. Of course, I was obsessed. Most do one private and two groups each week.

While it might take me longer to progress w/ just 2 privates a month, I could be just as good of a martial artists in the long run, right?



Of course! Do what you can, practice outside of class, and you will progress. There is no set minimum that you need to attend in order to make progress. Everyone is different. One person might need a lot of attention from the instructor, while another might do just as well or even better by comparison, even tho he has less attention from the instructor.

Generally, the more you train, both in class and outside class, the faster you will develop. But like most of us, you gotta find time in a busy life, so nothing's perfect.

Typically, I generally meet with my instructors only 1-2 times a week, and it's been like that for me from the beginning. We generally have small groups so it can almost be like getting a private lesson. But I also train outside of class a lot, often two and even three times a day. Practice your basics, your kata, work your techniques even if it is only in the air, train on the heavy bag to develop power in your techniques.

When I suggest the heavy bag, I do not mean dance around and spar with the bag. Don't work the bag like a boxer. Work it like a martial artist. Develop your individual strikes and kicks on the bag, keeping good form and good technique and good stance. And take your self defense techs and work them on the bag. It's not the same as on a person, but take the striking sequences and combinations that are in your SD techs, and work those on the bag, again paying attention to proper stance and postioning and such. Sometimes when we work a tech on a live partner, or in the air, we don't realize what it is like to strike something full force. It feels different and often does not flow quite the same, so it's good to play with this stuff on something like a bag that you can strike without causing injury to a training partner.

Do what you can and you can get a lot out of your training, even if you are not able to attend sessions as often as others can. Don't fall into the trap of comparing yourself to others. Just train and grow.

Flying Crane,
Very deep insight. Thanks.

Flying Crane,
Very deep insight. Thanks.

You are welcome. It's a very personally journey my friend, and everyone needs to find the path that works for them. Nobody is on quite the same road as the next guy.

I know there's no set limit, but what's the average amount of time it takes most people to get to 1st degree black?

How long did it take you guys to get your black belt?

I know there's no set limit, but what's the average amount of time it takes most people to get to 1st degree black?

How long did it take you guys to get your black belt?

I got mine in 1 year and 10 months. But, I was teaching at the studio and attending about 10 classes a week.

The average is about 3 1/2 - 5 years. I have found that those who take longer than 4 typically don't ever make it at all.

I like how our school did it. Your fees, and it's been a long time ago so I can't remember the exact cost, got you one half hour private class, and as many group classes as you chose to attend.

Brian Jones

When one of my former instructors belonged to the Tracy Kenpo organization our privates were included in our program. We were charged a flat monthly fee with 3 groups, and 1 private class per week. I started out(apprx"84") paying just 12.00 bucks US per week! One of the things I sorely missed when my school went EPAK were those weekly privates. Like the song says,"you don't know what ya got till its gone".

1stJohn1:9

Donald,
Coming from a Tracy's background, how did you like going to EPAK? While I know the instruction style was different, were there any noticible differences in the style for you?

When people talk about Chinese kenpo, they're most of the time talking about the Tracy's system, right?

When people talk about Chinese kenpo, they're most of the time talking about the Tracy's system, right?

It generally refers to a period of Ed Parker's system(s) development, and that was about the time when the Tracy's split off. That said, it is a pretty generic term, and there are plenty of people using the terminology, such as the IKCA naming their system "Chinese Kenpo." I'm pretty certain that Sigung LaBounty at one point founded an org called the National Chinese Kenpo Karate Association.

Lamont

When I was in Cleveland, I studied Kenpo at a Tracy studio for a number of years. The area has maybe 8 or so Tracy schools, all feature private lessons. All of the schools are independently operated. Where I trained, I paid $25 a week for one private lesson (that both me and my wife went to.) and then as many groups as we wanted, usually made it to about three. The instructor charged $25 when I started with him in 2000, and still charged $25 when I moved in 2005. No contracts were involved, the instruction was good. Avg time to 1st black seemed to be 4-5 years.

When I was in Cleveland, I studied Kenpo at a Tracy studio for a number of years. The area has maybe 8 or so Tracy schools, all feature private lessons. All of the schools are independently operated. Where I trained, I paid $25 a week for one private lesson (that both me and my wife went to.) and then as many groups as we wanted, usually made it to about three. The instructor charged $25 when I started with him in 2000, and still charged $25 when I moved in 2005. No contracts were involved, the instruction was good. Avg time to 1st black seemed to be 4-5 years.

That is pretty standard.

Overall, how do you guys feel about contracts when it comes to running your schools? Some of the Tracy's around my town use them, some don't.

Overall, how do you guys feel about contracts when it comes to running your schools? Some of the Tracy's around my town use them, some don't.

I've done it both ways. There was no difference.

Concerning the Tracy's studios in my area, all of them specialize in private instruction. Is it like this for the entire organization?

I get the idea behind this, in that students learn better/quicker when it's one-on-one lessons. To me the only problem w/this is the pricing fees. For the short time I studied kenpo, I was paying $40 a week. While you can attend as many group classes outside of your private lessons as you wish, $40 a week is a pretty hefty base price for me (particularly because I'm a poor college kid).

What do you guys have to say?

That you seem to believe that a cheap price is more important than anything else?

I'm just curious of what they'd have to teach you so you would know that price is very reasonable, and in fact, very valuable?

Sort of like paying $40 bucks for one oz bars of gold?

On the other hand, if someone is after "cheap" I just tell them to go to... (I name the cheapest place in town)...

They are happy and I am happy.

Dr. John M. La Tourrette
www.realspeedhitting.com
www.mentaltrainingsecrets.com

You may learn the motion better in private, but it takes a group(villiage) to experience and master application.
Sean

Right on.

Training mixtures are necessary to maximize the effect of the privates.

Thank you.

Dr. John M. La Tourrette
www.realspeedhitting.com (http://www.realspeedhitting.com)
www.mentaltrainingsecrets.com (http://www.mentaltrainingsecrets.com)

Donald,
Coming from a Tracy's background, how did you like going to EPAK? While I know the instruction style was different, were there any noticible differences in the style for you?

Spartan,
Not a whole lot because I was training at a studio that taught the Tracy system from an EPAK perspective. The owner/operator(Mr.Bill DiCarlo) of the studio was responsible for bringing Mr.Parker Sr., and some of his black(Mr.Wedlake,Mr.Palanzo)belts into Cleveland, Ohio for seminars, etc.. As a matter of fact when I went looking for another Tracy Studio to train at. I discovered that the kata, and tek applications that I had learned were just different enough in some aspects as to make my studio transition kinda confusing.Thanks for the interest.
1stJohn1:9

That is pretty standard.

Dave,
The above comment is referencing 1 private a week, and the rest of the groups free.

You can really help your students by offering 2 privates a week, or even 3 privates a week, and still give the groups free.

I personally have everyone on my schedule on for either 2 or 3 privates per week, No exceptions.

In my entire student body I have only 2 people taking 1 private session a week.

Dr. John M. La Tourrette
Ps. If you want more on this David and the "reasons why", email me privately for the details.

Dave,
The above comment is referencing 1 private a week, and the rest of the groups free.

You can really help your students by offering 2 privates a week, or even 3 privates a week, and still give the groups free.

I personally have everyone on my schedule on for either 2 or 3 privates per week, No exceptions.

In my entire student body I have only 2 people taking 1 private session a week.

Dr. John M. La Tourrette
Ps. If you want more on this David and the "reasons why", email me privately for the details.

I have always offered this as an option, and have probably 40% of my students doing this.

I have always offered this as an option, and have probably 40% of my students doing this.

Good for you Dave.

I've never seen others do it. So your comments about you doing it did surprise me.

Most instructors get locked into one tactic and fear treading in new territory.

You should easily get 90% of your adults into 2 privates a week.

About 60% of the kids will take 2 privates a week, depending on how you frame the offer.

Just tell the truth, and give the benifits that the parents can appreciate.

Dr. John M. La Tourrette

Dr.La Tourrette/KenpoDave

With so many getting away from regularly scheduled privates why do you continue, and even add more? Do you charge more for the privates on a contract? I truly missed having mine when we dropped them, and after awhile I adjusted, but they sure were nice. You obviously have no problem with personnel. I think that was one of the main factors as to why my instructor dropped them from the regular students schedule. Gotta go...

Salute,
1stJohn1:9

Dr.La Tourrette/KenpoDave

With so many getting away from regularly scheduled privates why do you continue, and even add more? Do you charge more for the privates on a contract? I truly missed having mine when we dropped them, and after awhile I adjusted, but they sure were nice. You obviously have no problem with personnel. I think that was one of the main factors as to why my instructor dropped them from the regular students schedule. Gotta go...

Salute,
1stJohn1:9

Well, for myself, I continue because it is much more beneficial to my students, and because it allows me to schedule lessons by appointment. I like the personal touch.

No, I do not charge more for privates. Extra privates can be bought at a discounted rate.

Dr.La Tourrette/KenpoDave
With so many getting away from regularly scheduled privates why do you continue, and even add more? Do you charge more for the privates on a contract?

A couple of reasons.

First I (and I assume Dave) knows how to teach a good private session where the student really feels they are getting their value desired.

Second, Many prefer privates and would rather pay for the extra attention to details that privates give them over groups...whether it's because of a health problem or because of a confidence problem, or because they just want all the attention.

Third, with the massive amounts of information we have to teach, the private lessons really do aid in the assimilation of those large amounts of skills in a way that groups cannot do in the same amount of time (we still offer gps and sparring classes).

Fourth, I do NOT discount any private lessons. The only asset we have is to teach the intangible of Kenpo Karate is time. There is only so much time in a day.

Fifth, I love teaching higher level concepts, and the continual drilling and feedback being given to their experiences until they get it. I love watching that "light go on" in their eyes.

Most who teach privates feel that way.

Those who don't teach privates usually don't feel the same way about teaching, or they not been introduced to the teachings of private in a way that motivates them to do so.

We allow no clients with no contracts (another topic but was brought up in your questions).

Hope this helps.

Dr. John M. La Tourrette

Just one question here. Why the use of the term "client" instead of student? Wouldn't that make you a salesman?
I understand that you are in the martial arts "business", but even high price ivy league schools use the term "student" instead of "clients".

Just one question here. Why the use of the term "client" instead of student? Wouldn't that make you a salesman?
I understand that you are in the martial arts "business", but even high price ivy league schools use the term "student" instead of "clients".

In my job outside of kenpo, the term client is important in the sense that people have come to our company, typically from our reputation, and trusted us to provide them with whatever service they are requesting. In response, we take very seriously, the trust and well being of our client above all others. Many of our clients return to us, and many become, in essence, business associates who recommend our services, and in turn, receive the same from us.

But it starts with our commitment to provide the highest quality service to our client.

In a karate studio, to me, it is much the same way. The person who walks through the door deserves my best because he is my client. Hopefully, he will become my student, then colleague, and so on.

But, the word client brings a connotation of professionalism to an industry filled with, unfortunately, amateurs with a black belt and some rented space.

Also, and I can't speak for Doc here, but in my school, I have short term clients that come by to learn very specific things. So, I differentiate between clients and students based on the depth of the relationship, but certainly not in the depth of service provided.

It is, to me, much like using the term "professor" instead of instructor.

So is this term "clients" part of the Tracy marketing vocabulary, or is it primarily used by Dr. LT? If it's a term mostly used by the Dr., then I'm still interested in his reasons for using the term.

So is this term "clients" part of the Tracy marketing vocabulary, or is it primarily used by Dr. LT? If it's a term mostly used by the Dr., then I'm still interested in his reasons for using the term.

I have used the term for a few years mainly because of business seminar that I attended conducted by Al Tracy. The term was brought up by one of the seminar attendees, and he made some good points. However, I don't think that the term client is part of the Tracy's vocabulary in any official sense.

Dr. LT is one of the few that I have heard use it in reference to students.

So is this term "clients" part of the Tracy marketing vocabulary, or is it primarily used by Dr. LT? If it's a term mostly used by the Dr., then I'm still interested in his reasons for using the term.

Hi John,
I've already answered this thread to death on kenpotalk.
And I do use the word client, student, and a few others, depending on the context.
Dr. John M. La Tourrette
Ps. we are all in sales whether we admit it or not. Some call it teaching. Others call it dating. Others call it good. Others call it bad. I just suggest people learn how to do it right. (NOTE: I am NOT being rude, but expressing my cool sense of humor)

Just one question here. Why the use of the term "client" instead of student? Wouldn't that make you a salesman?
.

First off, I think that your question is valid for you but means not much to me, and some would EVEN CALL IT RUDE, because of the negative inference and presuppositions you have for "salesman".

And I am NOT being rude, nor am I calling what you said "rude", but being honest. There is a vast difference.

Client is defined as "customer" by Webster's. So our Kenpo students are also our clients.

All professional martial studios (hopefully) use good sales tactics of communication so that they can give their customers better service.
A student is someone who engages in a course of study, esp, in an educational institution.

So I've used professional teaching methods, professional client criteria, and professional sales tatics for 37 years and I am very glad that I have.

Hopefully everyone else does also, regardless of which nominalization they use.

But if they don't, that is okay. They can call them students. They can NOT use sales tactics because they dislike the term and all their unconscious associations to that term.

And I know that some people find the use of the term client offensive. Cool. Good. And I can live with that. I do not consider that rude of them, but them expressing their own opinions, no matter if my concepts are different than theirs.

I still have clients, students and I use sales tactics no matter what they feel. Hopefully that is okay?

I am NOT here to have you defend what you use in your school with your clients. What ever you do with your clients/students/people/whatever is cool with me.

It's sort of like that post with Dennis C. over the word 'waza'.

He doesn't use that word. Cool.

I do, and I will continue using it. Cool.

Many in Kenpo do not use the word "Dan". Cool. I do and I will continue using it because I like and I appreciate it.

Just as I will continue using words like "sales", "contracts", "Student enrollment agreements", clients, students...

...I also make no difference in the words I use with women versus the words I use with men.

I also make ALL women who attend classes (is that word allowed) wear a nard guard, even though they do not have nards.

Isn't it cool that in your school/studio/dojo/dojang/kwon/ etc, you can do whatever you want?

Huggy feely friendly warm and smiley
Dr. John M. La Tourrette

John, you seem to offend pretty easy. Reading some of the comments and questions that are addressed to you on this and other forums, I can see why you get defensive quite easily.
But as far as I can remember, this is the only question I have ever asked you on this or any other forum. I can assure you that it would be wrong to presume that the title "salesman" is something I view as derogatory. All of us are consumers, and deal with sales people everyday. Most of these dealings are good experiences, and a few are not so good.
Now if I referred to someone as a "used car salesman", or "snake oil salesman" you would be correct in presuming I meant it in a derogatory manner.

I was wondering where you guys get all the time for these private lessons. Do you have outside jobs or is your martial arts school your source of income. I was just wondering because private lessons is rare in my school. My instructor feels your one on one time is when you are paired up with him in class or paired up with a black belt in class. We use group (class) teaching and then you're suppose to take that knowledge and build on it at home. And just to add on the Tracy's subject: we have one in my town and its just a cash cow. I'm definitely not saying they all are like this I'm strictly talking about this one. The guy that runs it make you sign a contract and it runs about $130 a month, which is outrageous where I live. He only does private lessions. If your school offers private lessons and they're built into the price then take advantage of it.

Ithe Tracy's subject: we have one in my town and its just a cash cow. I'm definitely not saying they all are like this I'm strictly talking about this one. The guy that runs it make you sign a contract and it runs about $130 a month, which is outrageous where I live.

If he is making enough money to be considered a cash cow, then his method obviously has value for lots of other people.

I have an outside job, and a 3rd black and two 1st blacks help with the teaching. We don't charge as much as the guy that you mentioned, and we offer groups with the privates. But, I have had people take daily privates and pay as much as $150 a week. Special cases though. Specific reasons to learn that way, and specific stuff they wanted to learn. All I am saying is that value is a relative term.

If he is making enough money to be considered a cash cow, then his method obviously has value for lots of other people.


Yes, because the more money you make the more value you have in martial arts.

Yes, because the more money you make the more value you have in martial arts.

Not sure I understand your point. My point is that you may consider his fees outrageous for your area, but, if he has a bunch of students willing to pay that fee, then they must feel that they are getting value from what they are learning that is at least equal to the price they are paying.

It is subjective.

First off, I think that your question is valid for you but means not much to me, and some would EVEN CALL IT RUDE, because of the negative inference and presuppositions you have for "salesman".

And I am NOT being rude, nor am I calling what you said "rude", but being honest. There is a vast difference.

Client is defined as "customer" by Webster's. So our Kenpo students are also our clients.

All professional martial studios (hopefully) use good sales tactics of communication so that they can give their customers better service.
A student is someone who engages in a course of study, esp, in an educational institution.

So I've used professional teaching methods, professional client criteria, and professional sales tatics for 37 years and I am very glad that I have.

Hopefully everyone else does also, regardless of which nominalization they use.

But if they don't, that is okay. They can call them students. They can NOT use sales tactics because they dislike the term and all their unconscious associations to that term.

And I know that some people find the use of the term client offensive. Cool. Good. And I can live with that. I do not consider that rude of them, but them expressing their own opinions, no matter if my concepts are different than theirs.

I still have clients, students and I use sales tactics no matter what they feel. Hopefully that is okay?

I am NOT here to have you defend what you use in your school with your clients. What ever you do with your clients/students/people/whatever is cool with me.

It's sort of like that post with Dennis C. over the word 'waza'.

He doesn't use that word. Cool.

I do, and I will continue using it. Cool.

Many in Kenpo do not use the word "Dan". Cool. I do and I will continue using it because I like and I appreciate it.

Just as I will continue using words like "sales", "contracts", "Student enrollment agreements", clients, students...

...I also make no difference in the words I use with women versus the words I use with men.

I also make ALL women who attend classes (is that word allowed) wear a nard guard, even though they do not have nards.

Isn't it cool that in your school/studio/dojo/dojang/kwon/ etc, you can do whatever you want?

Huggy feely friendly warm and smiley
Dr. John M. La Tourrette

I think that one reason that the term "client" seems odd in the martial arts, is that it has a connotaion of one keeping a professional distance from the customer. We tend to see and think of each other sa family in Kajukenbo. Ohana.

First off, I think that your question is valid for you but means not much to me, and some would EVEN CALL IT RUDE, because of the negative inference and presuppositions you have for "salesman".

And I am NOT being rude, nor am I calling what you said "rude", but being honest. There is a vast difference.

Client is defined as "customer" by Webster's. So our Kenpo students are also our clients.

All professional martial studios (hopefully) use good sales tactics of communication so that they can give their customers better service.
A student is someone who engages in a course of study, esp, in an educational institution.

So I've used professional teaching methods, professional client criteria, and professional sales tatics for 37 years and I am very glad that I have.

Hopefully everyone else does also, regardless of which nominalization they use.

But if they don't, that is okay. They can call them students. They can NOT use sales tactics because they dislike the term and all their unconscious associations to that term.

And I know that some people find the use of the term client offensive. Cool. Good. And I can live with that. I do not consider that rude of them, but them expressing their own opinions, no matter if my concepts are different than theirs.

I still have clients, students and I use sales tactics no matter what they feel. Hopefully that is okay?

I am NOT here to have you defend what you use in your school with your clients. What ever you do with your clients/students/people/whatever is cool with me.

It's sort of like that post with Dennis C. over the word 'waza'.

He doesn't use that word. Cool.

I do, and I will continue using it. Cool.

Many in Kenpo do not use the word "Dan". Cool. I do and I will continue using it because I like and I appreciate it.

Just as I will continue using words like "sales", "contracts", "Student enrollment agreements", clients, students...

...I also make no difference in the words I use with women versus the words I use with men.

I also make ALL women who attend classes (is that word allowed) wear a nard guard, even though they do not have nards.

Isn't it cool that in your school/studio/dojo/dojang/kwon/ etc, you can do whatever you want?

Huggy feely friendly warm and smiley
Dr. John M. La Tourrette

How do you seperate the client vs. the student? Above you said:

I still have clients, students and I use sales tactics no matter what they feel. Hopefully that is okay?

I suppose that everyone is free to use the terms as they choose in their own school. I have to agree with the others, especially Dans last post. The word 'client' seems to be more of a strictly business setting. Ex: You come to me for a service. I charge you, you pay me, period. Nothing more. One may wonder that while it may seem on the surface, that there is sincere desire in the persons best interest in learning the arts, that deeper down, its more about getting paid. Sales tactics also seem to hint that the seller is more interested in making the sale, regardless of how the buyer feels. I went to a dealership one time to buy a car. I specifically said that I did not want a red car and I wanted an automatic. The first thing he showed me was a red, standard and stated that he could show me how to drive it in 20min. Needless to say, I left and went elsewhere! That proved to me he could care less about what I want, and that he was only interested in making a sale.

The seller or person offering the service should give the buyer what they're asking for...not something else.

Student has more of a friendly feel to it, or as Dan said, Ohana.

Student has more of a friendly feel to it, or as Dan said, Ohana.

I agree, to a point. But there are professional fields where the client relationship is held to a very high, almost sacred standard.

I am thinking particularly of the lawyer/client relationship and to some extent the doctor/patient, although client is not used.

I think of it as everyone who calls or walks through the door is a client or potential client, and as such, deserves my professional best.

Clients eventually evolve into students, however, one of the things that Mr. Tracy always taught us was to always remember that your students, your students who have become friends, your employees, etc., are all still clients and therefore deserve to be treated with professionalism.

Often, I get students from other schools who had trained for a number of years, only to get taken for granted. Their lessons overlooked in favor of newcomers, their workouts cancelled if they were the only ones to show up. Their status as student allowed the instructor to become complacent, because "they would understand."

Clients, in my opinion, do not get taken for granted.

I guess what I am trying to say in such a roundabout way is that the word client is a reminder to me that everyone deserves a high level of professional service, no matter who they are.

I agree, to a point. But there are professional fields where the client relationship is held to a very high, almost sacred standard.

I am thinking particularly of the lawyer/client relationship and to some extent the doctor/patient, although client is not used.

I think of it as everyone who calls or walks through the door is a client or potential client, and as such, deserves my professional best.

Clients eventually evolve into students, however, one of the things that Mr. Tracy always taught us was to always remember that your students, your students who have become friends, your employees, etc., are all still clients and therefore deserve to be treated with professionalism.

Often, I get students from other schools who had trained for a number of years, only to get taken for granted. Their lessons overlooked in favor of newcomers, their workouts cancelled if they were the only ones to show up. Their status as student allowed the instructor to become complacent, because "they would understand."

Clients, in my opinion, do not get taken for granted.

I guess what I am trying to say in such a roundabout way is that the word client is a reminder to me that everyone deserves a high level of professional service, no matter who they are.

I've seen John Bishop hold class for one child student paying the standard group sign up fee for six weeks because no on else signed up for that session with him. You have to understand that John Bishop currently only charges $45.00 every six weeks and only raises the rates when the Recreation Center tells him he has to. (It's only gone up $5.00 in the past two years)

So clearly, we're talking about the instructor's ethics when it comes to what the student is going to get. I see the martial arts as a life long thing and in Kajukenbo, I know I'll be family for life even if (God Forbid) something should happen to me that made it impossible to train anymore. They take the Ohana thing very seriously. Like Sijo Emperado once said in an interview, "I'm like the father with my kids! Good boys, bad boys all kinds you know?"

So clearly, we're talking about the instructor's ethics when it comes to what the student is going to get. I see the martial arts as a life long thing and in Kajukenbo, I know I'll be family for life even if (God Forbid) something should happen to me that made it impossible to train anymore.

The family atmosphere is very important. A good example of what I am talking about happened last night. My senior students and I meet on Sunday evenings for a black belt workout. Last night, the only one who could make it was my senior instructor and manager of my studio. When I got there, we began talking about a variety of things, from his wedding to my son's birthday. This particular student has been with me for 14 years, since he was 12 years old.

At some point, though, I reminded myself that we were there to train. See, he is a long time student, and a friend, and an employee. And as easy as it would have been to sit around and talk about whatever, he was there for a reason, as was I.

Another example is sick days. As a studio owner, when I had no assistant instructors but alot of students, I knew that if I was sick, I could just go hang a sign on the door and go home and sleep it off. My students would understand. But what would potential clients think? What would their first impression be regarding my professional commitment to my business?

"Client" really is more of a mental box that I place students in, if that makes sense. More than a label for my students, it is a term that causes me to think more like a professional, and to continually try to "up my game." It is a reminder to not allow the instructor/student relationships to become too comfortable. Think of it in terms of the "hat analogy" where we all wear the dad hat, the school teacher hat, the lawyer hat, the student hat, etc.

The way I see it in the Tracy system, and I can't speak for Doc LaTourette, just myself, is that "client" reminds us that even when we are teaching our spouses, children, siblings, best friend or his family, that we should be conscious of providing quality, professional service, and that on the mat, the service we provide supercedes the relationship.

It really boils down to our differing inferences regarding the connotation of the term client.

I agree, to a point. But there are professional fields where the client relationship is held to a very high, almost sacred standard.

I am thinking particularly of the lawyer/client relationship and to some extent the doctor/patient, although client is not used.

I think of it as everyone who calls or walks through the door is a client or potential client, and as such, deserves my professional best.

Clients eventually evolve into students, however, one of the things that Mr. Tracy always taught us was to always remember that your students, your students who have become friends, your employees, etc., are all still clients and therefore deserve to be treated with professionalism.

Often, I get students from other schools who had trained for a number of years, only to get taken for granted. Their lessons overlooked in favor of newcomers, their workouts cancelled if they were the only ones to show up. Their status as student allowed the instructor to become complacent, because "they would understand."

Clients, in my opinion, do not get taken for granted.

I guess what I am trying to say in such a roundabout way is that the word client is a reminder to me that everyone deserves a high level of professional service, no matter who they are.

Hi Dave,

So, in your opinion, what is the difference between a client and a student? Above you stated that clients eventually evolve into students. Maybe I'm not following you on this. Of course, by all means, treat those students kindly. :) I just find it interesting because thruout all my years of training, I've never once been called a 'client', but instead a student. I don't know...theres just something about the word, that doesnt seem fitting for use in the arts. Likewise, when I see the words "sales tactics" that also doesnt seem fitting. Again, it seems that the main goal is to do whatever it takes to get the cash.

I guess thats when schools can be divided into two groups...one that is primarily concerned with the cash flow and the other that is concerned with student developement.

Mike

I live in Lexington Kentucky which is where Tracy's main headquarters is located. I went to check out his school and it's classes are taught in privates as well and you can attend as many group classes as you want. I don't remember the price but I am thinking its pretty expensive, like $120/month. Around my area the average cost for martial art lessons is anywhere from $60 to $80 a month. So I found Tracy's to be on the pricy side. The drawback that I see is that if you take privates then you don't get the experience of sparring a mix of people. You get used to sparring only one person. After a while your going to be able to know what he/she is going to do when sparring. While privates does have thier advantage they also have some negatives as well.

I live in Lexington Kentucky which is where Tracy's main headquarters is located. I went to check out his school and it's classes are taught in privates as well and you can attend as many group classes as you want. I don't remember the price but I am thinking its pretty expensive, like $120/month. Around my area the average cost for martial art lessons is anywhere from $60 to $80 a month. So I found Tracy's to be on the pricy side. The drawback that I see is that if you take privates then you don't get the experience of sparring a mix of people. You get used to sparring only one person. After a while your going to be able to know what he/she is going to do when sparring. While privates does have thier advantage they also have some negatives as well.

I agree with what you said about the private lessons. However, I believe they (the privates) are in addition to the regular classes.

I agree with what you said about the private lessons. However, I believe they (the privates) are in addition to the regular classes.

I think that's correct. BJJ out here is around $150.00 per month on average, and the USSD starts off at around $185.00 per month, so Tracy's sounds sort of in the middle range.

Still interested in hearing what seperates clients from students, and how a client evolves into a student.

Mike

IMO a client is a prospective student. Once they put their John Handcock on the dotted line then they become a student.

Still interested in hearing what seperates clients from students, and how a client evolves into a student.

Mike

Hmm, I posted a rather lengthy response. I wonder where it is?

Client implies a business relationship. A business relationship (to me) implies a certain amount of professional service, a minimum, if you will. Students are clients that have been around long enough to have developed a relationship outside of or beyond business. They have, through their training and work, etc., earned it.

However, everyone is at least a client. That is what I am trying to get to. On days when I am sick, tired, stressed, busy, whatever, all of my students deserve the best I have to offer, the same as any other client in any other business deserves.

It is not a money thing, and to me, a client does not become a student immediately upon signing on the dotted line. I hold clients in high regard. I am a client in many businesses many times a week. I pick and choose who I do business with by the service and product I receive from them. Considering my students clients constantly reminds me that if the service and product I offer is not superior, then my clients or students may choose to do business elsewhere.

I use the term to constantly remind myself to offer the best of what I have. Some of you guys seem to think the term is derogatory. I disagree.

Hmm, I posted a rather lengthy response. I wonder where it is?

Hmm..could this be it?
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=918092&postcount=47

Guess I should've taken a bit more time to read through your reply eh. ;)

Client implies a business relationship. A business relationship (to me) implies a certain amount of professional service, a minimum, if you will. Students are clients that have been around long enough to have developed a relationship outside of or beyond business. They have, through their training and work, etc., earned it.

However, everyone is at least a client. That is what I am trying to get to. On days when I am sick, tired, stressed, busy, whatever, all of my students deserve the best I have to offer, the same as any other client in any other business deserves.

It is not a money thing, and to me, a client does not become a student immediately upon signing on the dotted line. I hold clients in high regard. I am a client in many businesses many times a week. I pick and choose who I do business with by the service and product I receive from them. Considering my students clients constantly reminds me that if the service and product I offer is not superior, then my clients or students may choose to do business elsewhere.

I use the term to constantly remind myself to offer the best of what I have. Some of you guys seem to think the term is derogatory. I disagree.

Dave, anyone is free to use whatever term they want. I just find it odd because I've never once heard any teacher refer to someone as a client. And looking at some other replies here, I'm not the only one. Client to me, have the 'big business' feel to it. A lawyer has clients. To me it just seems that everything is strictly business all the time, no exceptions. Even Dan said the same thing in a reply to JLT.

And the people I would teach would always get courtesy and professional instruction from me. Just because I didn't call them 'clients' does not mean they get any less. :)

Mike

Hmm..could this be it?
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=918092&postcount=47

Guess I should've taken a bit more time to read through your reply eh. ;)

That covers it, but there was another one that is out there somewhere...

Dave, anyone is free to use whatever term they want. I just find it odd because I've never once heard any teacher refer to someone as a client. And looking at some other replies here, I'm not the only one. Client to me, have the 'big business' feel to it. A lawyer has clients. To me it just seems that everything is strictly business all the time, no exceptions. Even Dan said the same thing in a reply to JLT.

And the people I would teach would always get courtesy and professional instruction from me. Just because I didn't call them 'clients' does not mean they get any less. :)

I understand. I sat in a seminar listening to Mr. Tracy talk about it, thinking, at first, how impersonal. But, I don't refer to my students as clients, out loud. It is a mental designation that I use. I have students who are lawyers, surgeons, bankers, housewives, kids and everything in between.

When I walk into an office where I am a client (bank, doctor, lawyer) I expect to be treated a certain way because the amount of money I am paying demands it. Yeah, I know, business. But, because of the professionalism both paid for and expected, our relationship starts at a fairly high level. I try to achieve the same thing in my studio.

It is similar to the way you dress affecting your attitude or the image that you portray. Try this...if you have a job outside of kenpo, and that job does not require you to wear a coat and tie to work, do it anyway one day and see if it affects the way you deal with...clients...and even the other people in your office. I do it regularly, and oddly, for no apparent reason, I feel more "on" on those days. Maybe it is only a feeling, but I like it.

So, go a step further. Show up to teach kenpo in a coat and tie. See if it ups your game at all. It may, it may not.

My point is that in a business, clients feed you. And, in a martial arts studio, there are bills to pay just like any other business. At the very least, everyone gets client treatment. I set the client bar very high in my mind, so, to me, that sets my minimum standard way up there, and it keeps me on my toes.

But none of my students has ever heard me use the term client, unless they have undergone instructor training.

I think that's correct. BJJ out here is around $150.00 per month on average, and the USSD starts off at around $185.00 per month, so Tracy's sounds sort of in the middle range.

Wow,
maybe I am old fashioned, but that seems retardedly overpriced to me.

Maybe rent is more expensive in California that most places, I dont know. But then again, Most of the schools I know are not full time jobs, so they only have to turn a LITTLE profit.

YMMV