Direct qigong experiences...

[Cruentus]

I'm interested in hearing about some of the experiences that people on this forum have had with qigong. I want direct experiences, and no B.S. please!:D

:asian:

[Master of Blades]

Okay call me stupid, But what in gods name is qigong? Wasnt he that dude from Star Wars or suming?


:confused:

[Bob Hubbard]

QI(CHI) = ENERGY

GONG(KUNG) = SKILL

QIGONG = THE SKILL OF ATTRACTING VITAL ENERGY

Qigong is a self-healing art that combines movement and meditation. Visualizations are employed to enhance the mind/body connection and assist healing.
From Qigong Association of America
http://www.qi.org/


The word Qigong (pronounced chi kung) is a combination of two ideas: “Qi” means air, breath of life, or vital energy of the body, and “gong” means the skill of working with, or cultivating, self-discipline and achievement. The art of Qigong consists primarily of meditation, relaxation, physical movement, mind-body integration, and breathing exercises. Practitioners of Qigong develop an awareness of qi sensations (energy) in their body and use their mind to guide the Qi. When the practitioners achieve a sufficient skill level (master), they can direct or emit external Qi for the purpose of healing others.

From Qigong Institute
http://www.qigonginstitute.org/

:asian:

[bart]

Hey,

I went to see a guy named Bernie Langan in Berkeley, CA. He trained under BK Frantzis and Eskrima under Sonny Umpad. He does qigong and neigung. I watch his Bagua class. I was with a couple friends who met him in the past. It's not exactly a trick, but as a demo one of my friends held his arm tight about the wrist and forearm. He then placed his fist about a quarter inch from my shoulder and then he punched. My friend was moved slightly, but the important part is that he was really able to get a good punch in with such a small build up and being restrained as he was. It left a deep bruise too.

He attributed that skill and others like it to qigong practices, specifically neigung. There was nothing mystical about it. He just was able to use the skills gained from the exercise to force his punch through what was restraining him and generate a good deal of power in a very small space. If the strike was on my head, it would for sure have given me a good stun if not worse.

I've seen other qigong results even in myself. Through practicing a set of postures in a form of standing meditation I found that I was more relaxed in hitting, not really in kicking, but definitely in the hand strikes. Standing meditation is a form of qigong used in some types of Hsing I and other internal arts. It's good stuff, but it requires standing still for about 40 plus minutes a day. I was going crazy doing that so I stopped and returned to regular forms practice, which has good benefits too.

I've come across some hokey claims, but I've never believed them or seen any proof. I think that real qigong is a practice that teaches you about your body mechanics and state of mind and then gives you exercises with which to take advantage of what you've learned.

[TkdWarrior]

It's not exactly a trick, but as a demo one of my friends held his arm tight about the wrist and forearm. He then placed his fist about a quarter inch from my shoulder and then he punched.
i think this happens with correct body posture n putting ur power behind(all that old stuff) i won't give any credits to qi gong on this... i always do this tricks to impress(yea yea) some of non believers in MA, normally i place my palm on their chest n hit them from that distance they normally see me shake once n feel the hit hard enuff. from my understanding it will take u about a week or two to make this trick punch...

-TkdWarrior-

[bart]

I think that some traditional forms will serve the same purpose as qigong. I wasn't impressed too much by the punch but I was surprised. I was able to duplicate it after we stopped at Denny's on the way home for dinner. But he was more relaxed than I was when he did it. That may have something to do with it. Forms always have a martial bent to them, qigong can be purely for health so it doesn't carry that baggage.

We all have tricks like that. We all have some tricks too to break them. A kind of pompous guy did the "unbendable" arm trick once at a party. He invited me to bend it. I gently shoved a knuckle into his brachial nerve and the arm bent pretty quick, much to his surprise. He wasn't very happy though.

[TkdWarrior]

. But he was more relaxed than I was when he did it. That may have something to do with it.
the more relax u r the more power u can generate in ur punch within short distance well i called it trick cause this is used to get some students ;) but following on this principle u can generate some hard power n can use while fighting...

ok my experience with Qi-gong..
1. Borrrrrrrrrinnnnnnnngggg
2. lots of pain in back of thigh,n calves, shoulders too
3. gives u feeling of sinking
4. i pee after every session like i havn't done in ages :D i asked n come to know it's healthy to do, if you are not then probably u havn't worked enuff... i had this experiene with good Yoga session too
5. very energetic feeling after session

hmm i m stilling trying to figure out the Chi balls part :D
-TkdWarrior-

[bart]

ok my experience with Qi-gong..
1. Borrrrrrrrrinnnnnnnngggg


I have to agree. A famous Hsing I sifu, David Chen, said that you should think of your spouse or happy thoughts. That you're trying to free your mind of all thoughts except the positive, so that your body can function correctly for the duration of the meditation.

I found that interesting and I tried it. I'm not big on qigong, some sifu's have told me that's normal and that I'm just not ready for it yet. I'd have to agree. I don't do any now. But my mind is open as I've seen the benefits in other people, most notably in posture and back pain. If I were you I'd check out what type of qigong you're doing and maybe try something else, or get professional instruction, if you're doing it on your own.

What qigoing are you doing? Iron Shirt? 8 Pieces of Brocade? Dao Chi?

[yilisifu]

Qigong is a vital part of Yiliquan, which I teach. You need to have a good instructor who can help you along this path.

[RyuShiKan]

While I was in China I had both acupuncture and Chi Gong done on me many times.

One time I was being treated for a blow that left my urine the color of Coke Cola……not good.

The therapist was standing behind me and I was kind of slumped over waiting for him to do something.
I felt as if someone were flicking my back with their finger but from the inside out. So I asked the therapist “Is that all you are going to do is flick me with your finger?”
He replied “I’m not touching you” He was standing about 6 feet away and he was the only person in the room.

[Humble artist]

Best to get a teacher.
If not,trouble may find it´s way to you.

[TkdWarrior]

well basically i do is Zhan Zhuang/pole standing excercises... it's not like that i hav probs but after some practice the pain is gone
normally u should think of happy thoughts while doing ZZ but the heightest point is "doing nothing" in mind, so when u start it can get tiresome boring... i used to stance training before so my mind wear out before my body :D
ZZ teaches u lots of mind control
the other qi-gong sort of excercise which i do is taiji painfully slow and soft Iron body gung which is much more of conditioning Gung
i do know 8 piecec of brocade but i just don't find satisfaction with it... i luv my things :)
-TkdWarrior-

[lhommedieu]

I practice Wang Ji Wu's Xing Yi Nei Gong and some stance training (San Ti). Basicially this is to learn how to recognize internal connections and to allign the body's tissues and bones before practicing martial arts. When I was practicing Kajukenbo pretty avidly I found that I could move move quickly and in a much more relaxed manner; it was also helpful insofar as I could take the hits and throws a lot better. (There's an excellent book and tape by Tim Cartmell if anyone is interested.)

As far as the Nei Gong goes I generally feel a softening throughout the entire body and some heat in my palms. There is also a feeling of heightened consciousness. I also try to direct my mind into areas that have taken some abuse in the past, like my lower back and right shoulder, to get them to soften and loosen up. The San Ti training is pretty painful because you're in a static pose for an extended period of time: everything that should be relaxing usually hurts a lot before that happens.

As all of Xing Yi training can be considered a form of Qi Gong or Nei Gong there's really a lot to talk about. For that matter, a lot of forms from many martial arts can be considered Nei Gong if practiced in the correct manner. For example, I also practice a style of Filipino martial art that has an 8-10 minute form. The idea is to try to be relaxed as possible and to move the stick from your center rather than just using your arms. This also involves using the legs and waist correctly.

The Nei Gong and Qi Gong that I practice are ususally tied into Chinese medicine as my teacher is an acupuncturist (as am I). One thing he told me about the Filipino arts that I found very interesting is that most guys who bang sticks a lot can be a little jacked-up all of the time. This is because, according to his teacher, they're jarring the Heart meridian that runs down the inner forearm to the pinkie. On the other hand, a lot of the "old men" who do mostly solo practice are generally pretty secure with themselves. That's because they're opening and smoothing out the heart meridian.

One day I went out to the park to practice our form. It was late afternoon and I had just returned from training. One of my training partners had managed to dislocate my pinkie finger on my left hand. This hand usually holds a wooden training dagger (we do espada y daga). My finger still hurt alot even though it had been set and I couldn't close it more than a little so I had to hold the dagger with three fingers instead of four. After about an hour of practice I noticed that I could close my pinke finger completely around the dagger finger. Of course, it still hurt for a couple of weeks but the range of motion remained very good, and I think it healed a lot faster than it normally would have.

Anyhow, that's my "Qi Gong Experience" story.

Best,

Steve Lamade

[KennethKu]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan
While I was in China I had both acupuncture and Chi Gong done on me many times.

One time I was being treated for a blow that left my urine the color of Coke Cola……not good.

The therapist was standing behind me and I was kind of slumped over waiting for him to do something.
I felt as if someone were flicking my back with their finger but from the inside out. So I asked the therapist “Is that all you are going to do is flick me with your finger?”
He replied “I’m not touching you” He was standing about 6 feet away and he was the only person in the room.

There is a US$ 1 million for him to collect.

http://www.randi.org/research/index.html

[Cruentus]

There is a US$ 1 million for him to collect.

KennethKu: I think the $1 mil would go to someone who can defy the laws of physics. In my humble opinion, real qi-gong wouldn't defy physics, therefore a real qi-gong practitioner would never get the mil no matter how amazing he was. If anyone is able to manipulate someone else in anyway using there bodies Biological/electical energy (my american word for "Qi") "physically without touching them," then I am sure there will be a way to explain how it was done using modern science. They wouldn't, then, get the $$. That doesn't make it any less amazing, and it doesn't discredit it. It would only discredit it if the person was outright lying. It just makes it less "mystical" and more realistic.

[KennethKu]

If you can emit energy from your body send it through the air or vacuum and basically "reach out and touch someone" for that matter, you definitely deserve some forms of recognition. You would stun the medical world for sure.

Just prove it. Don't worry about explaining it interms of science or not. Just demonstrate that the result can be produced under a controlled environment. You got nothing to lose. They will fly out to your location to offer you the test. That is the preliminary test. The formal test is done by an independent party.

If people truly possess all this "alleged" power, they ought to be able to repeat their performance at will, under most environment.

I don't mean to sound like a chest pounding crusader. It is just that extra ordinary claims require extra ordinary proof. Normally, you are required to prove your claim at your expense. Here, Randi Organization offers a US$ 1 million as prize. I am surprised that the GiGong doctors in China would not find the prize an easy picking, and they can make good use of the prize for research funding.

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by KennethKu
If you can emit energy from your body send it through the air or vacuum and basically "reach out and touch someone" for that matter, you definitely deserve some forms of recognition. You would stun the medical world for sure.


That happens evertime after I eat some good ol' Texas Chili. :D

[chufeng]

KennethKu,

There is NOTHING extraordinary about manipulating qi...
We all possess the ability...those who choose "logic only," as a means to think about their world, miss so much on a day to day basis.

Your continued posts about Randi's 1mil$$$ seems to be a copout, to me. Can YOU come up with a reasonable argument against the existence of qi? If it's because you haven't experienced it, that is NOT an argument against its existence, but an argument for your lack of experience with it.

Do you believe in God? Prove He exists...you can't...
If you don't believe in God...prove He doesn't exist...you can't...
Do you believe in Love? show it to me under a microscope...demonstrate HOW the person changes, with science, when they are in love...you can't...

This thread is about peoples' experiences with qi and qigong...NOT about debunking...

I know there are charlatans out there who make false claims...
I know there are people who may have been "suckered" into believing something that is not real...
I am against all of that...but I think to close your eyes to what is possible is even more unfortunate...

IMHO

:asian:
chufeng

[KennethKu]

No Sir, I have not commented on Qi or CHI or NeiGong. My objection is to the claim or assertion of the capability to project or emit energy from one's body to impact an external object at a distance. This physical phenomenon if true, should be verifiable. You cannot make such claim but refuse to have it verified.

Love is a state of emotional expression. You cannot project it to affect an external object. Love is communicated, not emitted nor transmitted.

God or faith is not emitted nor transmitted. It is internal and is a state of being.

Love, faith are state of being. They are not physical phenomena.

As for "internal art" or Qi or NeiGong, I have no idea what it is. My comment on it, is not worth horse piss.

However, if someone makes claim of producing a physical phenomenon, then it must be reproducible and verifiable independently.

For example, some Qi Gong practitioners claimed and demonstrated they could withstand a kick in the groin, on stage. I would believe that if they are willing to have that performance tested in a controlled environment. OR at least allow me to do the kicking! :D And the one show where these supposedly Shaolin monks could bend a spear pivoted against their throats. Yeah, do that in a controlled environment or let me stab him with my own spear! On second thought, NO. I am not going to jail for this BS stunt.

Anyway, all I am saying is, if some one claims to produce a physical phenomenon, then it should be verifiable independently. I don't pretend to know squat about Qi . If someone says Qi can do this or that, great, lets see the proof. Simple as that. In GOD we trust, every one else must bring proof.

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by TkdWarrior
well basically i do is Zhan Zhuang/pole standing excercises... it's not like that i hav probs but after some practice the pain is gone

Pain while doing qigong, or any discomfort, is usually caused by "stagnant" qi. It should resolve itself over time, as your body becomes more accustomed to the practices... If it doesn't, you need to let your instructor know; he/she should know what to do to help you through it - if he/she doesn't, then they have no business "teaching" you qigong...


normally u should think of happy thoughts while doing ZZ but the heightest point is "doing nothing" in mind

What a complete load of crap.

If you stand and do nothing, and you think only "happy thoughts," or attempt to think about "nothing," the you are not doing qigong... Without the yi ("intent" or "mind") driving the qi, there is no qigong... Period.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

[yilisifu]

I have an old friend (an American) who demonstrated his ability to withstand blows. He easily took a punch in the throat. Then one in the temple. Then a baseball bat to the back of his neck...and then a kick to the groin which lifted him into the air.

None of these things affected him even slightly.

However, he refused to give public demonstrations because he feared that he would be viewed as some kind of "circus freak" or performer. I agree with him.

But I know what I saw. I was standing next to him when he did it.

He could not, however, emit chi for purposes of striking. So we swapped information.

I understand the argument about "no touch" knockouts and all that sort of thing. These people are charaltans.
On the other hand, there ARE people who can deliver what appears to be a light blow with sledgehammer effects. There ARE people who can take your very best shot and grin at you. Acupuncture is real (I am myself an acupuncturist); it is not a placebo.

Chi CAN be felt at a distance (usually measured in inches) by those who are sensitive to it. But like I said, the circus performers are just trying to get into people's wallets. And they're very good at it, too. The Shao-lin monk "show" is one such circus and it's a shame that the Chinese have allowed this sort of garbage to occur. These men are not monks, nor are they even martial artists.

The two camps; the fakes and the real thing(s) have caused many people to doubt the reality of intrinsic energy. I am here to say that it is real. No, I cannot prove it scientifically, but like love or God, I know it exists.

Randi is a classical debunker. He's done some worthwhile debunking, but he has a tendency to throw the baby out with the bathwater.
Black holes have never been proven to exist. Neither have neutrinos or quarks. They exist MATHEMATICALLY on paper and in theory and we can "see" their effects, but no one has actually ever seen or measured one. However, Randi lacks the fortitude to argue with well-known astro-physicists about the reality of such things. He's still a stage magician in his heart.
The effects of chi can be felt and sometimes seen. This should be as indicative of it's existance as that of neutrinos or black holes...

[lhommedieu]

(I posted this on another thread, but it seems to fit in here as well.)

I have the greatest respect for Randi; his expose of Philippine “psychic surgeons,” to give just one example from so many others, provides a valuable service insofar as it shows how easily charlatans can manipulate vulnerable people for money. However, there are scores of traditional martial artists and healers who don’t perform parlor tricks and don’t rip people off with slight-of-hand - and yet subscribe to beliefs that are pre-scientific. There are scores of beliefs that are unscientific as well, e.g., the belief in God or that love is a necessary component of a sucessful marriage. What we are really talking about here is the incommensurability of cultural concepts. I’ve been knocked out while boxing and knocked down doing Chinese internal arts; both resulted in “horizontal meditation” and both would explain the “why” of what happened in metaphors that are incommensurate with each other. I’ve also treated back pain with Motrin, on the one hand, and have gotten incredible results through a combination of acupuncture, craniosacral therapy, bonesetting, and Chinese herbs. The ontological foundations of each approach are entirely different, as are the languages used to describe them. And to argue that one worked because it was based on Western science and other merely because of the placebo effect is very questionable, in my opinion: acute, spasmodic back pain usually doesn’t respond to sugar pills of any variety.

Western science is a wonderful thing. If I ever needed necessary surgery or a carcinoma treated I’d head for the nearest specialist. On the other hand, I’ve seen many, many people who had surgery for back pain that ended up much worse off from the experience – a healthy dose of skepticism about what the “experts” say is just as warranted as any other kind.

With respect to Chinese medicine, consider the following:

Eisenberg, D. Encounters With Qi: Exploring Chinese Medicine
Rose, K. et. al. A Brief History of Qi
Kleinman, A. Writing at the Margin: Discourse Between Anthropology and Medicine

Best,

Steve Lamade


__________________
Steve Lamade
San Miguel Eskrima

[KennethKu]

Originally posted by yilisifu ...... The effects of chi can be felt and sometimes seen. This should be as indicative of it's existance as that of neutrinos or black holes...

The question is how can you tell if some one's claim of such capability is real or phony.

[lhommedieu]

Originally posted by KennethKu
The question is how can you tell if some one's claim of such capability is real or phony.

You can't without spending a lot of time in a particular practice. I would advocate the practice of an internal art that pays attention to the alignment of tissues in the body to generate power. This to me is a genuine expression of what we're talking about. As a general rule however, I always consider the fact that those who make claims (of any kind) are generally phony. They have a product to sell. Those who can generally don't make any claims - they just fight well or heal people effectively.

[KennethKu]

Originally posted by lhommedieu
You can't without spending a lot of time in a particular practice.

I don't mean this to refer to you, but every charlatan utters something along that EXACT line !!



I would advocate the practice of an internal art that pays attention to the alignment of tissues in the body to generate power.

How can you "align" your tissues? You can't. Muscles contract and relax. They don't realign.



This to me is a genuine expression of what we're talking about. As a general rule however, I always consider the fact that those who make claims (of any kind) are generally phony. They have a product to sell. Those who can generally don't make any claims - they just fight well or heal people effectively.

Unless Qi gong phenomena can be verified, it is going to remain on the periphery as it has been.


they just fight well or heal people effectively
This is a claim.

[KennethKu]

Originally posted by yilisifu ....
On the other hand, there ARE people who can deliver what appears to be a light blow with sledgehammer effects. There ARE people who can take your very best shot and grin at you.

This should not be hard to prove.


Acupuncture is real (I am myself an acupuncturist); it is not a placebo.

You have vets performing this on dogs now. I saw the acu chart in my vet clinic. What's your take on this?


Chi CAN be felt at a distance (usually measured in inches) by those who are sensitive to it....... The two camps; the fakes and the real thing(s) have caused many people to doubt the reality of intrinsic energy. I am here to say that it is real. No, I cannot prove it scientifically, but like love or God, I know it exists.

We appreciate your insight. My point is, how do you tell the fake from the real? While Chi may be real, but how do you verify the practitioner? Unless you have an objective method of verification, it is a mess.


The effects of chi can be felt and sometimes seen. This should be as indicative of it's existance as that of neutrinos or black holes...
1. How are you going to keep DKI from hiding behind the same argument?

2. If this is a physical phenomenon, then it should be reproducible and verifiable independently. It doesn't require the involvement of Randi's organization.

I am not dead set denying the existence of Chi. It is just that Chi gong practitioners should explore some way to produce verifiable result. That will definitely advance the practice.

[chufeng]

KennethKu,

Acupuncture works on dogs and other animals because it IS NOT a matter of belief...it works.

How can you tell if someone is a fake?
Good question...I think it gets back to what was said earlier...if they push the "energy" thing and use it as a primary means to sell something, you should be suspicious.

Those who practice qigong, do it for themselves...they aren't trying to PROVE anything and spend their time training instead of looking for proof or ways to verify what they do.

As far as absorbing punches and dishing out sledgehammer blows that look like soft techniques...if you are ever in the Seattle Tacoma area, drop me a line (or YiLiQuan1 a line) and we'll show you. You will have your verification first-hand...

:asian:
chufeng

[KennethKu]

Mr Hachey,

I appreciate the invitation and I will definitely drop by to pay my respect if I am in the region.

Ok, I don't know squat about acupuncture. I have witnessed it performed on a patient but I didn't have the gut to have the needle on me, eventhough I have been slashed and stabbed before.

Since acupuncture was not developed for dogs , I am surprised how it got transplanted on to dogs. I should do some basic homework on the subject first. But I will take your words that it has merits on pets, and not necessary a fraudulent scheme by my vets.

You brought up a very good point - follow the smoking gun. The smoking gun is the financial stake. If the practitioner is not going for fame nor fortune, that increases his/her credibility.

:asian:

[lhommedieu]

Originally posted by KennethKu
I don't mean this to refer to you, but every charlatan utters something along that EXACT line !! [QUOTE]

Of course every charlatan says that they can do what they can do due to a lot of practice. So do olympic athletes, concert pianists, and professional politicians. What I meant was that if you are interested in direct Qigong experiences (the nominal topic of this thread), then you should practice Qigong. If, after a year of practice, you still think it's ********, then report back and say so.

[QUOTE]How can you "align" your tissues? You can't. Muscles contract and relax. They don't realign.[QUOTE]

Tissue has structure. Tendons and ligaments, for example, are composed of collagen and elastin fibers that are subject to wear and tear due to age and trauma, resulting in fibers that are lax (loss of plasticity), torn, abraded, and misaligned, etc. The point of many Qigongs is to heal these injuries by placing the body into highly specific positions wherein the fibers are gradually placed in allowed to relax, strengthen, and heal, thereby allowing the body to respond more efficiently.

In addition, connective tissue is related to phagocytic and immunocompetent cells, as well as cells that produce pharmacologically active substances that are important in modulating inflamation. Qigong is also practiced to move fluid through a swollen area, wherein movement is constrained due to the accumulation of fluid (as seen in immunological or trauma responses). Some tendons have a sheath that is made of two layers, with a cavity of viscous fluid between the two layers. This fluid contains water, proteins, glycosaminoglycans, glycoproteins, and ions, that serve as a lubricant to provide an easy sliding movement of the tendon within its sheath. Qigong promotes the balance of fluid to facilitate the movement of tendons. Connective tissue carries nutrients from blood to various cells in the body, and moves metabolic wastes from the cells to the blood. The use of Qigong to regulate the breath and stimulate blood flow helps to promote this exchange.

[QUOTE]Unless Qi gong phenomena can be verified, it is going to remain on the periphery as it has been.[QUOTE]

That would be fine. Your quarrel with "energy palms" etc., is a staw man argument. What I mean by Qigong is an intimate familiarity with the way my body feels, reacts, and moves. The Chinese use a terminology to describe this type of familiarity (being "in" your body) that is incommensurate with the vocabulary of 21st century science - a science that has been dominated by Cartesian assumptions about mind/body duality since the 17th Century.

[QUOTE]This is a claim.

Most of what I have said is composed of claims. I don't need double-blind studies to confirm the validity of assumptions that make up 99.9% of my daily life (for example, that when I stand up I'll still have a floor under me). To act otherwise would be to not live life, but remain a spectator dependent on someone else's ontology.

For that matter, your assumption that Qigong could only be a valuable phenomenon if and only if it was verified by scientific research is also a claim.

[lhommedieu]

Sorry - I haven't mastered the "quote" thing yet. Most of my response is in the box after the paragraph surrounded by [QUOTE]. I have learned how to change font.

Best,

Steve Lamade

[KennethKu]

:) I am not going to address what you said regarding Qi Gong.

But I will tell you how to use the quote function instead. lol

Ok,
[ quote ]
Your text here.
[ /quote ]

Now, you do not want to put the spaces after the "[" and before the "]". I need to put them there to show you the syntax.

Take out the space, that will result in:


Your text here.

[lhommedieu]

Thank you. That was driving me nuts.

Best,

Steve

[Cruentus]

However, if someone makes claim of producing a physical phenomenon, then it must be reproducible and verifiable independently.

I totally agree, which is why I don't buy many of the claims out there.

However, Medical Science has been able to explain many things about Chi; things that the "ancients" have known in different terms for 1000's of years. This is why the UCLA medical school has a program for acupuncture. This is why in a humanistic psychology course (actually when I was in high school back in 1995) we watched a video tape of various different internal energy "phenomenoms" that were performed under controlled environments. One was the filming of brain surgury in Korea, where the patient was conscious the entire time. They used acupuncture to shut off her pain receptors, and she was able to communicate with the surgeons during the surgury, which made the proceedure much safer.

Another film was of a "Yogi" from India who was placed under scrutiny of scientests in a controlled environment. He was able to lower his breath and heart rate to only about 2 breaths per minute, and his heart rate was under 6 beats per minute; for a sustained period of time.

Another was a film of Tibetin Buddhist monks who went to a cave in 3 degrees below zero weather. Through intense meditation, these 4 monks where able to not only sustain there body tempurature, but elivate it enough to drench there clothing in sweat. I think they were about 103 degrees F. if I am not mistaken.

The list goes on. So, there really is no need to try to "debunk" the pheonomenom of "Chi". The proof already exists, you just have to find it. A University with the reputation of UCLA would not offer an acupuncture program, a study based on Biological energy (Chi) if it did not exist. To say that there is no possible way that Chi exists in this day and age is like saying the world is flat.

The issue with me isn't "debunking" Chi, it's seperating truth from false claims regarding it. I respect your need for imperical evidence; I am the same way. I would actually rather talk to someone like yourself who doesn't believe everything he hears, as opposed to someone who will believe anything you feed them. I'll say it again: the empirical evidence is out there for Chi, you just have to find it. My issue of you bringing up Randi's website to challenge these people to "prove" the Chi phenomenom, is that it is not telling the whole story. Randi's challenge, to my understanding, is for those who claim to "defy" modern science. All of the Chi examples I have listed, as amazing as they are, do not defy science at all. They where all under controlled environments, with scientific explainations behind them all. This didn't disprove or discredit "Chi", it just demystified it a little. With Randi's Challange, we don't know how many people from Chinese medicine (or others who can do phenomenal things with internal energy) have been turned down by Randi for whatever reason. I'm sure there were quite a few. Randi's Organization isn't going to throw a million away, no matter what people might think. Even if someone can do the most amazing feat in the world, if it can be hypothisised by science, then they are not getting paid. It's just that simple. So, many people who are the "real deal" won't even bother, because they know that they aren't claiming to "defy physics."

In terms of "No Touch Knock Outs" or "Chi Projection," I actuall don't doubt the possablity. I doubt the abilities of those who are out there claiming it, however. And I refuse to believe that someone can do it until it is imperically proven in a controlled environment. So, I am with you on that one.

In regards to realigning tissue: Tissue (including muscle, bone, tendons, etc.) is very plyable. We manipulate tissue all day long; when we excersise, breath, etc. If we couldn't realign tissue, then Chiropractors, Bone Specialists, and Physical Therapists would be out of business. Granted, the human body has it's basic structure, but strengthening and realinging tissue within that structure is a very real thing.

A note on the medical community: The medical community is controlled by the private sector, which means that our healthcare is under a very capitalistic structure. I'm not argueing for or against this here, for there is good and bad to this. But given this fact, this is why things like surgury "without anastetic," and holistic methods of healing aren't readily available to the public in this country. Many of these methods, simply, are not profitable. As an financial consultant I can tell you that the medical realm is one of the largest industries we have. Think about all of the drug companies, supply companies, insurance companies, educational entities, and professionals who are involved. The people who are CEO's of these entities are smart business men rather then doctors. Think about all of the anasteseologlists with 6-figure salaries who would be out of a job if surgury aided with acupuncture was the norm. Or how many drug companies would be losing profits if you could get the same results through an herb concoction and a change in diet instead of some of their expensive drugs.

The point of all of this is that things are the way they are in the medical community because of profit and business, not practicality. Alternative methods will be introduced very slowly, and only on a "need" basis, or if it can be profitable. I am not discounting Western Medicine, but I am asking people to remember that just because western methods don't readily utilize "Chi," or other "holistic" methods, this doesn't discredit the existance of these methods. There are motives behind everything.

Now unfortunatily the "Frauds" will hide behind this point, and until these methods are readily accepted into the medical community there is no way to regulate these methods, or to activily seperate the fakes from the genuine.

:cool: